Rails - Mar 2006 - Help me (php dev) choose Ruby on Rails. Few questions.

Hi,

This is my first post and I have been waiting to try Ruby on Rails since 
a long time now.  I have a few questions that I am looking an answer 
for:

1. I am intermediate level PHP developer, I have a small project in hand 
which I need to finish in 3 weeks. 3 weeks sounds doable in PHP. 
However, I want to take an opportunity to learn Ruby On Rails. I have no 
experience with Ruby but I just read about the basic syntax and how it 
works - i think it''s much easier than PHP thou. So let''s say
if spend my
first week trying out Ruby on Rails and getting use to the new 
programming language, would it be good enough for me to write the simple 
app that I need in 2 weeks. Assuming I have to ''not worry about so many
configurations'' like login, maintaining sessions, paging record sets
etc
etc.

I can pick up languages reasonably quickly, so what do you guys suggest?

2. Which is the best IDE or editor for ruby on rails, I am not sure 
which one is shown in the Flickr and Blog (take 2 with sound) 
screencasts shown on the website. I am currently coding PHP in VIM and 
like to use Shell for mySQL. What would you guys recommend?

3. Is the documentation (manual) available as downloadable PDF. I might 
be traveling a bit in the near future and would love to code when I 
don''t have internet around.

4. How secure is ruby on rails? I know this is too broad a question but 
since it''s framework which takes care of lot of things I would like to 
understand how much does rails focusses on Security. For instance if I 
am using Login Module working the rails way and if I need a dynamic 
image to check if it''s human or a robot trying to login, does rails 
already have such feature built in?

I think these are quite a lot. Thanks in advance. I look forward to take 
up rails. cheers!

lin

-- 
Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.

On Mar 7, 2006, at 8:49 AM, Shalin Jain wrote:
> Hi,
>
> This is my first post and I have been waiting to try Ruby on Rails  
> since
> a long time now.  I have a few questions that I am looking an answer
> for:
>
> 1. I am intermediate level PHP developer, I have a small project in  
> hand
> which I need to finish in 3 weeks. 3 weeks sounds doable in PHP.
> However, I want to take an opportunity to learn Ruby On Rails. I  
> have no
> experience with Ruby but I just read about the basic syntax and how it
> works - i think it''s much easier than PHP thou. So let''s
say if
> spend my
> first week trying out Ruby on Rails and getting use to the new
> programming language, would it be good enough for me to write the  
> simple
> app that I need in 2 weeks. Assuming I have to ''not worry about so
> many
> configurations'' like login, maintaining sessions, paging record  
> sets etc
> etc.
>
> I can pick up languages reasonably quickly, so what do you guys  
> suggest?
It''s hard to say from your description of the app you need to build.  
Can you elaborate as to what the site will need to do? If you can we  
might be able to make better suggestions to you. If its a simple site  
then you can probably do it no problem. But you dont want to commit  
if its a bigger project with a deadline. That being said, I can  
usually build small 8-10 page websites with a few dynamic parts like  
a news page and a few other things in 5 or 6 hours. Of course I have  
been using rails for a long time now.

>
> 2. Which is the best IDE or editor for ruby on rails, I am not sure
> which one is shown in the Flickr and Blog (take 2 with sound)
> screencasts shown on the website. I am currently coding PHP in VIM and
> like to use Shell for mySQL. What would you guys recommend?
The IDE in the video is textmate for OSX only. http:// 
macromates.com . But many rubyists use vim and there are even a few  
vim scripts to help with ruby/rails coding. Mysql from the cli is  
finer, its what I usually do. With rails you can use migrations so  
you never have to use the mysql cli except for creating a new  
database. All your tables can be created and altered from within ruby.
>
> 3. Is the documentation (manual) available as downloadable PDF. I  
> might
> be traveling a bit in the near future and would love to code when I
> don''t have internet around.
>
There is the Agile Web Dev with Rails book that is available from  
http://prafmaticprogrammers.com . It has everything you need to get  
going with rails and i highly recommend it. The pdf is pretty cheap  
as well, it will be the best $20 you can spend to learn rails.

> 4. How secure is ruby on rails? I know this is too broad a question  
> but
> since it''s framework which takes care of lot of things I would
like to
> understand how much does rails focusses on Security. For instance if I
> am using Login Module working the rails way and if I need a dynamic
> image to check if it''s human or a robot trying to login, does
rails
> already have such feature built in?

Rails has everything you need to make your apps secure but you still  
have to think before you code just like anything else. There is a  
plugin somewhere for the captcha images you mention but its not in  
rails proper.

> I think these are quite a lot. Thanks in advance. I look forward to  
> take
> up rails. cheers!
>
> lin
>
Welcome aboard!

-Ezra Zygmuntowicz
Yakima Herald-Republic
WebMaster
http://yakimaherald.com
509-577-7732
ezra@yakima-herald.com

As for the length of time, three weeks can be enough, or be woefully
insufficient, depending on your skills and scope of the project.

As for the best editor, textmate (www.macromates.com) is quite popular for
those of mac-ish persuasions, and is what is used by the rails developers
and in the videos.  Radrails (www.radrails.org), is more of an ide that is
based on eclipse that works quite well also on windows, mac and linux.

The best documentation for rails beginners is probably the Agile Web
Development with Rails book from the pragmatic bookshelf.  You can get it as
a pdf for ~$22. Also, when you install rails from gems, the rdoc api
documentation is available offline by running # gem_server, and accessing
localhost:8808.

As for authenication schemes, rails does not have any "built-in"
authentication system.  There are howerver several excellent third party
auth. systems available as plugins, etc.  I don''t know of any that
provide
captcha inegration, you might have to add that yourself.

Joe Kowalski

On 3/7/06, Shalin Jain <shalinjain@gmail.com>
wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> This is my first post and I have been waiting to try Ruby on Rails since
> a long time now.  I have a few questions that I am looking an answer
> for:
>
> 1. I am intermediate level PHP developer, I have a small project in hand
> which I need to finish in 3 weeks. 3 weeks sounds doable in PHP.
> However, I want to take an opportunity to learn Ruby On Rails. I have no
> experience with Ruby but I just read about the basic syntax and how it
> works - i think it''s much easier than PHP thou. So let''s
say if spend my
> first week trying out Ruby on Rails and getting use to the new
> programming language, would it be good enough for me to write the simple
> app that I need in 2 weeks. Assuming I have to ''not worry about so
many
> configurations'' like login, maintaining sessions, paging record
sets etc
> etc.
>
> I can pick up languages reasonably quickly, so what do you guys suggest?
>
> 2. Which is the best IDE or editor for ruby on rails, I am not sure
> which one is shown in the Flickr and Blog (take 2 with sound)
> screencasts shown on the website. I am currently coding PHP in VIM and
> like to use Shell for mySQL. What would you guys recommend?
>
> 3. Is the documentation (manual) available as downloadable PDF. I might
> be traveling a bit in the near future and would love to code when I
> don''t have internet around.
>
> 4. How secure is ruby on rails? I know this is too broad a question but
> since it''s framework which takes care of lot of things I would
like to
> understand how much does rails focusses on Security. For instance if I
> am using Login Module working the rails way and if I need a dynamic
> image to check if it''s human or a robot trying to login, does
rails
> already have such feature built in?
>
> I think these are quite a lot. Thanks in advance. I look forward to take
> up rails. cheers!
>
> lin
>
> --
> Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.
> _______________________________________________
> Rails mailing list
> Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org
> http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
>
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Hi,

it''s great that you want to try RoR and I think there''s no
better way
to learn something new than to take it for a spin "in the real world".

However, I''d like to inject a bit of reality here.

On two different occasions I''ve had people come to me with Rails  
projects that needed rescuing.  Both times either the client or the  
developer asserted that the project was X% done and both times they  
had grossly overestimated how much work had actually been completed.

Both times my response was "but there''s nothing there!".  Not
one
feature had meaningful unit or functional tests and all they really  
had was the result of a database schema and calls to "./script/ 
generate scaffold".

Yes, a database schema *does* take time to define but apart from  
that, weeks of development effort had gone into something that any  
experienced rails developer could have done in a couple of hours.

It was as if they defined the schema, generated the scaffold and then  
said: "now what?".  And they spent weeks trying (and failing) to  
answer that question.

So, assuming this isn''t a toy project and you have a real deliverable  
for a paying client, here''s my advice:

1 - Budget extra time.

Rails does make things easier but only if you don''t fight the  
framework.  It''s unrealistic to expect that Rails will shave 30% off  
your development effort for a 3 week project if you''re not *already*  
used to doing things the Rails way.

Just how much extra time you budget depends on point #2.

2 - Have an early success metric.

You need to have a milestone that you can hit within your budgeted  
"extra" time that will tell you if you need to abort and implement it
in PHP.

My advice is to choose a feature that is at the very core of your  
application - an aspect that is at least partly the reason for the  
app existing in the first place.

And here''s the critical part:  develop that feature from start to  
finish.  Unit tests, functional tests, *all* logic.  Ignore stuff  
like navigation or graphics, even user login - concentrate solely on  
the logic and interaction for that one feature.

3 - Decide whether it''s worth the risk for this project.

Once you''ve fully implemented the feature (or you''ve run out
of time)
you have to decide whether to continue with Rails for this project.   
If the first feature is a resounding success or a dismal failure the  
decision is pretty easy.

Chances are though, it''ll be somewhere in the middle.  You''ll
get it
done but it will have been a struggle.  You''ll have to look at the  
rest of your app and do some math.

I budgeted X days to do the first feature in PHP and it took me X  
days to do it in rails.  What lessons did you learn?  How much time  
did I burn because I didn''t understand "why" something is
done a
certain way in Rails?  Will I burn less time on the next feature?

Ultimately if your answer to "can I hit my delivery date with Rails"  
isn''t "hell yeah!" then you are taking a big risk.

4 - If you decide to abort, try again.

If it doesn''t work out and you decide that (for the client''s
benefit)
you''re going to implement in PHP, make sure you revisit Rails - it  
really is worth it.  An excellent learning experience would be to re- 
implement this project in Rails after you''ve delivered the PHP  
version to your client.

-- 

I hope this all doesn''t come off as too negative.  Much of what you  
hear about productivity gains can be backed up by a *lot* of people,  
myself included.  However, I personally believe you won''t start to  
realize those gains until your *next* "three week" Rails project.

Good Luck!
Trevor

On 7-Mar-06, at 8:49 AM, Shalin Jain wrote:
> Hi,
>
> This is my first post and I have been waiting to try Ruby on Rails  
> since
> a long time now.  I have a few questions that I am looking an answer
> for:
>
> 1. I am intermediate level PHP developer, I have a small project in  
> hand
> which I need to finish in 3 weeks. 3 weeks sounds doable in PHP.
> However, I want to take an opportunity to learn Ruby On Rails. I  
> have no
> experience with Ruby but I just read about the basic syntax and how it
> works - i think it''s much easier than PHP thou. So let''s
say if
> spend my
> first week trying out Ruby on Rails and getting use to the new
> programming language, would it be good enough for me to write the  
> simple
> app that I need in 2 weeks. Assuming I have to ''not worry about so
> many
> configurations'' like login, maintaining sessions, paging record  
> sets etc
> etc.
> I can pick up languages reasonably quickly, so what do you guys  
> suggest?
>
> 2. Which is the best IDE or editor for ruby on rails, I am not sure
> which one is shown in the Flickr and Blog (take 2 with sound)
> screencasts shown on the website. I am currently coding PHP in VIM and
> like to use Shell for mySQL. What would you guys recommend?
>
> 3. Is the documentation (manual) available as downloadable PDF. I  
> might
> be traveling a bit in the near future and would love to code when I
> don''t have internet around.
>
> 4. How secure is ruby on rails? I know this is too broad a question  
> but
> since it''s framework which takes care of lot of things I would
like to
> understand how much does rails focusses on Security. For instance if I
> am using Login Module working the rails way and if I need a dynamic
> image to check if it''s human or a robot trying to login, does
rails
> already have such feature built in?
>
> I think these are quite a lot. Thanks in advance. I look forward to  
> take
> up rails. cheers!
>
> lin
>
> -- 
> Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.
> _______________________________________________
> Rails mailing list
> Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org
> http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
--
Trevor Squires
http://somethinglearned.com

Shalin Jain wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> This is my first post and I have been waiting to try Ruby on Rails since 
> a long time now.  I have a few questions that I am looking an answer 
> for:
> 
> 1. I am intermediate level PHP developer, I have a small project in hand 
> which I need to finish in 3 weeks. 3 weeks sounds doable in PHP. 
> However, I want to take an opportunity to learn Ruby On Rails. I have no 
> experience with Ruby but I just read about the basic syntax and how it 
> works - i think it''s much easier than PHP thou. So let''s
say if spend my
> first week trying out Ruby on Rails and getting use to the new 
> programming language, would it be good enough for me to write the simple 
> app that I need in 2 weeks. Assuming I have to ''not worry about so
many
> configurations'' like login, maintaining sessions, paging record
sets etc
> etc.
> 
> I can pick up languages reasonably quickly, so what do you guys suggest?
To reinforce what Trevor Squires said:

Given that you would need the whole three weeks to do it in PHP, if you 
start by spending a week learning Rails you will have given up any 
chance of delivering on time if you find you need to fall back to PHP.

Trying to learn  under that kind of pressure would be unwise.

You would only learn the basics of application development in that first 
week - you would be by no means expert (how long has it taken you to 
become an intermediate PHP developer?). Some of my colleagues - skilled 
J2EE developers with plenty of OO and MVC experience - have been using 
Rails for prototyping, and being dropped into that as a full time 
activity, with no previous exposure to Rails, they took two weeks or 
more to become productive. They are very happy with Rails, and the 
learning curve is gentle, but that doesn''t mean it is short.

Don''t forget the potentially tricky subject of Rails deployment.
Whereas
Rails application development has a gentle learning curve, production 
deployment has a steep one. When Ezra''s book comes out I''m
sure this
situation will improve, and hosting companies specialising in Rails are 
starting to appear, but for now hosting Rails apps is a different world 
from hosting PHP apps. If you''ve been following this list, you will
have
ample evidence of that.

Perhaps you could finish this project in PHP and spend a little time 
each evening learning how to re-create that day''s work in Rails. If
that
went well, you might have enough confidence with Rails development to 
make it worth spending some more of your time learning how to set up a 
production environment. Then you would be able to make an informed 
decision regarding what to use for your next project.

regards

   Justin

Thanks Everyone. Trevor and Justin: I think at this point I will stick 
to PHP for now and try Rails over a period of time now that I sure I can 
make it in just under 3 weeks. So maybe couple of hours of Rails as I 
go.

Besides, i spent some more time thinking about products that are 
deployable. Lets say if I write products or scripts which is typically 
not a hosted solution but a re-distributable set of scripts to be 
installed by End Users and not developers. Let''s reinforce end users by
"lots and lots of end users" with cheap hosting accounts ($8.95 etc).
Do
you think PHP still takes the lead here?

If what I said above is exactly true that PHP infrastructure is far more 
available and supported and if I have to write some apps in rails and 
some in PHP. Wouldn''t be just better to stick with one language? At the
end of the day both can create equally well performing applications 
while PHP is just a harder approach?

Thoughts?

-- 
Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.

Am 08.03.2006 um 07:41 schrieb Shalin Jain:
> Besides, i spent some more time thinking about products that are
> deployable. Lets say if I write products or scripts which is typically
> not a hosted solution but a re-distributable set of scripts to be
> installed by End Users and not developers. Let''s reinforce end  
> users by
> "lots and lots of end users" with cheap hosting accounts ($8.95  
> etc). Do
> you think PHP still takes the lead here?
As far as I can see, PHP will be stronger here than Ruby for some  
time simply because you can host much more low traffic applications  
on the same server with PHP since it much less memory than Ruby on  
FastCGI and is faster than Ruby CGI (even more with a byte code cache).

This means: Many installations of an application as every user has  
its own files and databases. If you want to do "forum hosting", i.e.  
you have all the code and there is one big database storing all the  
forums then Rails could be a good option.

For example, if you wanted 100 parallel installs of something like  
Basecamp then PHP is what you want since it is pretty fast and has a  
lower memory footprint. If you wanted to write this from scratch and  
offer it as a service ... well you know what BC is written in :)
> If what I said above is exactly true that PHP infrastructure is far  
> more
> available and supported and if I have to write some apps in rails and
> some in PHP. Wouldn''t be just better to stick with one language?
At
> the
> end of the day both can create equally well performing applications
> while PHP is just a harder approach?
It depends on what you want. If you want a "shrinkwrap" Forum/Gallery
then stick to what''s already there. If you want to write your own  
code and you have to write things from scratch anyway then IMO Rails  
is the best thing available in any language.

Regards,

Manuel

> 1. I am intermediate level PHP developer, I have a small project in hand 
> which I need to finish in 3 weeks. 3 weeks sounds doable in PHP. 
> However, I want to take an opportunity to learn Ruby On Rails. I have no 
> experience with Ruby but I just read about the basic syntax and how it 
> works - i think it''s much easier than PHP thou. 
I won''t recommend this as a way of learning RoR.
What was recommended to me (by the PHP London group in fact) was to join 
or start a sourcforge project. Having read the Agile book and started on 
the Pickaxe one this is just what I have done.

I''m still learning PHP (OOP and Pattern design) and it come in useful
in
asking questions about RoRs methologies on this forum.

_tony

-- 
Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.