asterisk users - Mar 2005 - [OT] - Why should I answer a Newbie question, therethick!

If you really want to do this the asterisk list is based off of mailman.

You can learn all about mailman here:

http://list.org/

But really, what are the odds that newbs will know to go there first?
Are you going to moderate it? Someone has to actually answer the
questions you know, if a newb only list is going to exist.

Look, don't answer lame questions if you don't want to. Flaming a newb
for being a newb is just mean. (they will eventually RTFM or STFW or
they will fail). This is the way of the open source community. 

Otherwise, they can hire one of the many companies that have sprung up
around supporting open source products (tons for asterisk specifically,
some of you probably even get paid this way) why do you think redhat
makes so much on support contracts? Personally, I'm only not a newb
cause I paid for a training class to get me out newbieism(sp?)

My 2 cents

-----Original Message-----
From: asterisk-users-bounces@lists.digium.com
[mailto:asterisk-users-bounces@lists.digium.com] On Behalf Of Race
Vanderdecken
Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2005 8:57 AM
To: 'Asterisk Users Mailing List - Non-Commercial Discussion'
Subject: RE: [Asterisk-Users] Why should I answer a Newbie
question,therethick!

If some one would like to show me the site that explains how to setup a
mailing list then I will create a Newbie list for asterisk and voip
questions and answers.

I am only asking for someone to show me the site and maybe a few
pointers on how to start it up. Only because I don't have the time or
experience to do it quickely enough to get the newbies off the list. And
I am a bit slow with apache and web type sutff, as you can tell by my
website codetyrant.com.

I will personally pay for the hosting of the list.

It is not that I am tired or will ever grow tired of passing out fish
and giving fishing lessons it is just I don't have the good fortune to
be adept at web interfaces.

Also, suggestions for the domain name would be welcomed. 

Race "The Tyrant" Vanderdecken

"In the Land of the Blind, the One-eyed man is Elvis...", copyright
RPV
1997.


-----Original Message-----
From: asterisk-users-bounces@lists.digium.com
[mailto:asterisk-users-bounces@lists.digium.com] On Behalf Of Steven
Critchfield
Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2005 11:28 AM
To: Asterisk Users Mailing List - Non-Commercial Discussion
Subject: RE: [Asterisk-Users] Why should I answer a Newbie
question,therethick!

On Wed, 2005-03-02 at 11:01 -0500, Race Vanderdecken
wrote:
> This list is owned by no one.
Actually it is owned by Digium. It has many contributers though.
> When someone drives off the road into a ditch in a snow storm they
last
> thing they need is someone telling them they should have invested in 
> snow chains and defensive driving lessons before leaving the house.
> 
> Newbies need help getting out of the ditch so traffic can continue to 
> flow and the rubber neckers can be abated. If you are not willing to 
> pull off to the side of the road and help the fool by pushing their
car
> out of the ditch you have no right to give him the finger as you drive
> past.
As a person who spent 9 hours in traffic last winter just to drive 15
miles due to idiots who should have just stayed home, I think your
analogy breaks down. 

At some point, you either need to learn to drive or you pay someone else
to transport you or your stuff. Same applies to computer work, either
you can do the work yourself or you pay someone else to do it. Even your
snow driver analogy works here, you either get yourself out of the ditch
or you pay someone to do it for you. 

The payment is not always monetary. Sometimes the payment is just a
showing of sufficient effort. Back to your snow driver analogy, if the
driver in the ditch is just waiting in the car for you to come over and
push them out without even attempting anything on their own, you would
be less inclined to bother. You would be even less inclined to continue
exerting your own effort if the driver was not cooperating or wasn't
even interested in getting out to help push.
--
Steven Critchfield <critch@basesys.com>

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----- Original Message ----- 
> Look, don't answer lame questions if you don't want to. Flaming a
newb
> for being a newb is just mean. (they will eventually RTFM or STFW or
> they will fail). This is the way of the open source community.
Here Here, I'm with you.  I find it a constant source of amazement how, in 
all the various lists I've followed, people find it necessary to beat on the
new guy.  Even the 'if you don't want to get flamed then do some
research
first' attitude i'm not a fan of.  Sometimes newbies are also newbies to
the
concept of lists, etc, as well as the topic of the list.

Frankly, I agree.  If you don't like the question, feel it's lame or
dumb,
or don't like that someone hasn't done their research, then delete the 
message.   If you think they're wasting your time by writing a message, then
don't waste any more of your own time by responding to it.  I find the 
pummelling of newbies more annoying than the newbie question itself.

regards,

Paul

As someone who is new to Asterisk and Linux (I guess I am a newbie), but
who has been doing a ton of research, Google searches, and is getting to
intimately know the wiki, I take offense to Steven Critchfield's
commentary about newbies.

It is interesting... There seems to be a passion surrounding the *
system that is coming from a variety of work areas including telecom
engineers, network admins, and just home tinklers.  You have the
opportunity to provide a solution that many small to medium businesses
could take advantage of in amazing ways.  This is the tip of the
iceberg, * could play a major role in telecommunications in the future.
(I make these statements after having just dropped $120,000 on an
Inter-tel system a year ago, and having gone through the whole process
of evaluating a variety of systems.  Each system provided good features,
but it seemed like each of the feature sets provided in * ended up
costing at least a couple grand to add to our system... But this is
another discussion entirely.)

Unfortunately, I feel that you may end up pushing people away if you
keep attacking them.  There are people like myself who are decision
makers in using this technology and who actually have money to spend on
implementation.  If we needed to, we would hire someone from this group
to help us out.  It has not come to that yet for us, as I have been able
to implement most aspects without serious problems.

This list is for general Asterisk user questions... And from what I have
seen this is the best place for someone like myself to get a grip on the
different technical concepts related to *.  I believe that I, as what
you would refer to as a "Newbie", have just as much of a
"right" to ask
a question about setting up *, as a seasoned * user has the "right" to
ask questions relating to implementing a more complex technology and
getting help for a problem.

Now, to offer a solution, and I don't know if this is possible, as I
know nothing about the mechanics behind this list... Is it possible to
automatically send an email to each new subscriber after they confirm
their email that gives them some basic "how-to's" related to this
list
i.e.  (this is what I have done)

1. Before asking a question, do a Google search
2. After a general Google search, do a specific search on this group
3. After a Google search, look at http://www.voip-info.org/wiki-Asterisk
the information contained in these pages will answer 95% of your startup
questions.
4. If you have done 1, 2, & 3 - feel free to email the list.
5. Please do not email the list asking people to hold your hand.  That
is not what the list is for, it is for help if you run into an
implementation problem, not to teach you the basics by using 1, 2, & 3.


Thanks for your thoughts on this!

Jeff Busch
jeff.busch@lewisbuilds.com

-----Original Message-----
From: asterisk-users-bounces@lists.digium.com
[mailto:asterisk-users-bounces@lists.digium.com] On Behalf Of Shadow
Roldan
Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 4:32 PM
To: Asterisk Users Mailing List - Non-Commercial Discussion
Subject: [OT] - [Asterisk-Users] Why should I answer a Newbie
question,therethick!

If you really want to do this the asterisk list is based off of mailman.

You can learn all about mailman here:

http://list.org/

But really, what are the odds that newbs will know to go there first?
Are you going to moderate it? Someone has to actually answer the
questions you know, if a newb only list is going to exist.

Look, don't answer lame questions if you don't want to. Flaming a newb
for being a newb is just mean. (they will eventually RTFM or STFW or
they will fail). This is the way of the open source community. 

Otherwise, they can hire one of the many companies that have sprung up
around supporting open source products (tons for asterisk specifically,
some of you probably even get paid this way) why do you think redhat
makes so much on support contracts? Personally, I'm only not a newb
cause I paid for a training class to get me out newbieism(sp?)

My 2 cents

-----Original Message-----
From: asterisk-users-bounces@lists.digium.com
[mailto:asterisk-users-bounces@lists.digium.com] On Behalf Of Race
Vanderdecken
Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2005 8:57 AM
To: 'Asterisk Users Mailing List - Non-Commercial Discussion'
Subject: RE: [Asterisk-Users] Why should I answer a Newbie
question,therethick!

If some one would like to show me the site that explains how to setup a
mailing list then I will create a Newbie list for asterisk and voip
questions and answers.

I am only asking for someone to show me the site and maybe a few
pointers on how to start it up. Only because I don't have the time or
experience to do it quickely enough to get the newbies off the list. And
I am a bit slow with apache and web type sutff, as you can tell by my
website codetyrant.com.

I will personally pay for the hosting of the list.

It is not that I am tired or will ever grow tired of passing out fish
and giving fishing lessons it is just I don't have the good fortune to
be adept at web interfaces.

Also, suggestions for the domain name would be welcomed. 

Race "The Tyrant" Vanderdecken

"In the Land of the Blind, the One-eyed man is Elvis...", copyright
RPV
1997.


-----Original Message-----
From: asterisk-users-bounces@lists.digium.com
[mailto:asterisk-users-bounces@lists.digium.com] On Behalf Of Steven
Critchfield
Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2005 11:28 AM
To: Asterisk Users Mailing List - Non-Commercial Discussion
Subject: RE: [Asterisk-Users] Why should I answer a Newbie
question,therethick!

On Wed, 2005-03-02 at 11:01 -0500, Race Vanderdecken
wrote:
> This list is owned by no one.
Actually it is owned by Digium. It has many contributers though.
> When someone drives off the road into a ditch in a snow storm they
last
> thing they need is someone telling them they should have invested in 
> snow chains and defensive driving lessons before leaving the house.
> 
> Newbies need help getting out of the ditch so traffic can continue to 
> flow and the rubber neckers can be abated. If you are not willing to 
> pull off to the side of the road and help the fool by pushing their
car
> out of the ditch you have no right to give him the finger as you drive
> past.
As a person who spent 9 hours in traffic last winter just to drive 15
miles due to idiots who should have just stayed home, I think your
analogy breaks down. 

At some point, you either need to learn to drive or you pay someone else
to transport you or your stuff. Same applies to computer work, either
you can do the work yourself or you pay someone else to do it. Even your
snow driver analogy works here, you either get yourself out of the ditch
or you pay someone to do it for you. 

The payment is not always monetary. Sometimes the payment is just a
showing of sufficient effort. Back to your snow driver analogy, if the
driver in the ditch is just waiting in the car for you to come over and
push them out without even attempting anything on their own, you would
be less inclined to bother. You would be even less inclined to continue
exerting your own effort if the driver was not cooperating or wasn't
even interested in getting out to help push.
--
Steven Critchfield <critch@basesys.com>

Look.  Lets make it simple.
 
In most cases, if a guru is bored or not interested in a noob question they just
ignore it.  Personally, I find myself answering some of these specifically
because I am not a guru and not quite a noob anymore either.  The majority of
those that dump what are essentually dumb questions here do so because they know
no better.  They are new at *, sometimes new at Linux, and most of all new to
the list.  Doesn't offend me, I just send them a "google
site:lists.digium.com <some word>" email and explain why they are
getting ignored.
 
Everyone in this current thread has a good point.  Yes, people really should
RTFM but maybe it is not in everyones interest to rag them about it.  We can use
better ways of communication without trying to send a negative vibe to the new
guys.
 
Yes, people who know no better should be given some slack and taught and
"shaped" into good questioner, list users, and hopefully contributors.
Regardless, taking offense in any situation like this is counter productive.
 
Gurus, keep on doing your thing.  Answer those you find worthy and ignore those
that didn't study Asterisk 101. Or if you want to help out even the most
mundane of questioners, then more power to you.  Then, if your voice is heard,
it is only when you are doing something positive to help out another and help
out the Asterisk community.  Why speak up at all if it is a waste of your time?
 
Everyone else, make it a point to give direction to the noobs so they know where
to start out.  Consider it Asterisk boot camp and we all get to train a complete
* virgin or two.  Direct them to the starting point and tell them the rules of
the game.
 
My guess is that the majority of us on this list are not people who have been
involved since the inception of Asterisk.  Most of us got a start with a
rudimentary understanding and the desire to be part of the open source
community, not to mention save some bucks.  That means most of us asked a dumb
question or two.  Personally, I have gotten the snide reply before when I asked
a dumb question.  Also I have gotten some wonderful advice and direction when I
asked the right question and showed I put forth a real effort.  That taught me
the way this works and I adhere to it now.  Lets teach them the same.
 
You don't have to throw the noobs a bone if you don't want to but
remember that you are shaping the next generation of Asterisk users and
hopefully the next group who will carry Asterisk to even more people.  You
patience nets us one more person who is on the Asterisk wagon and that is a good
thing.
 
That is just my $0.02.  Please don't flame me.  There is no point to this
kind of angst on the list.  It is a waste of email when we should all realize
that participation is voluntary.
 
Best regards to all,
Wiley
 
 
 
 

________________________________

From: asterisk-users-bounces@lists.digium.com on behalf of Ronald Wiplinger
Sent: Thu 3/3/2005 9:46 PM
To: Asterisk Users Mailing List - Non-Commercial Discussion
Subject: Re: [OT] - [Asterisk-Users] Why should I answer a Newbie
question,therethick!



Steven Critchfield wrote:
>On Thu, 2005-03-03 at 17:59 -0700, Paul Fielding wrote:
> 
>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>   
>>
>>>Look, don't answer lame questions if you don't want to.
Flaming a newb
>>>for being a newb is just mean. (they will eventually RTFM or STFW or
>>>they will fail). This is the way of the open source community.
>>>     
>>>
>>Here Here, I'm with you.  I find it a constant source of amazement
how, in
>>all the various lists I've followed, people find it necessary to
beat on the
>>new guy.  Even the 'if you don't want to get flamed then do some
research
>>first' attitude i'm not a fan of.  Sometimes newbies are also
newbies to the
>>concept of lists, etc, as well as the topic of the list.
>>
>>Frankly, I agree.  If you don't like the question, feel it's
lame or dumb,
>>or don't like that someone hasn't done their research, then
delete the
>>message.   If you think they're wasting your time by writing a
message, then
>>don't waste any more of your own time by responding to it.  I find
the
>>pummelling of newbies more annoying than the newbie question itself.
>>   
>>
>
> 
>
Sometimes it is not the "if" you make a search, often is for new
comers
"what" to aks for.
If you do not know the specific term, than you need to ask somewhere,
and I think the list is good for that.

To point to the 'wiki' or 'Google' in general often does not
make
sense!!! Just be silent than, if you do not know a better hint!!!

If I get a reply to my question "Look at the wiki" or "Have you
searched
it on Google" is for me just a time waster!!
If the answer is, look up "xxx" "yyy" than it makes more
sense to me!!!

The term RTFM is not always a good hint either! Sometimes the right
answer, even it is the 100th times is better (maybe even shorter) than a
comment like that!
Besides the documentation of * and add-ons are either changing often or
changing not often enough to the newest version.
As user we cannot "guess" what the developer team found better to use
now.
E.g., ASTCC is a great product, just there is little till nothing to
find in the wiki or Google, ... Asking in the list was also never answered.
The best product is worthless, if you cannot document it!!
I know that documentation is the last thing to do. Even my lawyer in the
school told me, if you want to save money, ask for two set copies of a
manual included to the machine. 95% of technical companies will fail to
give you that IN TIME, and there you can than deduct for each day!!!

Often I think, why somebody does not make a screen shoot of all he has
developed and attach it, so that we can guess more what the product can
do. Again for ASTCC (obviously I fight with that one right now ;-) )
e.g., I cannot find anything for USERS and SIP/IAX friends, ....

1.5 cents


bye

Ronald

>As I have told others before. This list is a valuable resource even for
>those of us who know a lot about asterisk already. The users who would
>rather come here than do any work on their own become pollution to this
>list. They are the repetitive spam that has no benefit to the ones
>receiving it.
>
>This type of behavior has run many of the "guru"s off of this
list. They
>are unlikely to be replaced.
>
>BTW, telling a user they haven't done the prerequisite home work before
>asking a question is no where near pummelling. Pummelling would be
>calling them names and making personal attacks. Life is full of venues
>where you need to meet specific criteria before you are considered
>worthy of interacting.
>
>All that to lay the ground work to say that when we send a user back out
>to the search engines to do their homework, we do so as a jealous
>protecting of this forum and what value we receive from it.
> 
>

--
Ronald Wiplinger  (CEO of ELMIT)
http://www.elmit.com    +886 (0) 939--77-55-16  or FWD 511208
- I'm a SpamCon Foundation Member, #694, Verify it at http://www.spamcon.org

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Jeff Busch wrote and I modified:

*******************************************************
Asterisk is a Open Source community and supported by volunteers.

Please do the following before asking one of these volunteers for help.

1. Before asking a question, do a Google search
2. After a general Google search, do a specific search on this group
3. After a Google search, look at http://www.voip-info.org/wiki-Asterisk
the information contained in these pages will answer 95% of your startup
questions.
4. If you have done 1, 2, & 3 - feel free to email the list.
5. Please do not email the list asking people to hold your hand.  That
is not what the list is for, it is for help if you run into an
implementation problem, not to teach you the basics by using 1, 2, & 3.

In addition:  Output from the Asterisk console with -vvvvvvv and sip debug
turned on is VERY helpful to diagnose your errors.
*********************************************************

I like this idea if it is possible!  I am trying to get my sales department
to do something like this as well.  I could write a hundred FAQs, but nobody
reads them, just calls:)

Shanon