Xen users - Nov 2006 - Warning regarding AMD Athalon 64 4200+(HVM/AMD-V)

Hello to all, 

For those evaluating the AMD X2 4200+ series for the purposes of running
HVM guests, take a note below before purchasing if the server you are
purchasing happens to be made by HP.

There is an oddball version (apparently OEM sold to HP) which does *not*
support AMD-V technology. I''ve seen many of these on e-bay as well as
for sale / lease by popular co-location facilities. 

Searching around, you''d assume every 4200+ had AMD-V support, this
isn''t
the case. Broadly, however .. they do with the following exception.

Be sure to get Revision F (AM2 socket) and 1207 socket, not the 939/940
socket. Chances are you''re only going to run into those with HP labeled
servers.

Below is the revision / model translation from HP regarding them.. so
you can be sure you''re getting the one you want.

The HP translator code:
dx5150 & DL145 G1 = Rev E
dc5750 & DL145 G2 = Ref F

In other words, get the dc5750 , not the dc5150 if you want to run HVM
guests. I''m posting this because the HP models are popular, great
buys .. and (although I''m sure not intentionally) sort of misleading
regarding HVM support. 

This also clears up the common misconception that all 4200+ series are
AMD-V enabled, I''ve seen more than a few folks posting regarding not
being able to get HVM guests to run on them.. this is why.

Again, I love AMD, and I prefer HP servers, this is not an attack on
either, just an attempt to help folks avoid a bad experience when
purchasing for the specific purposes of running HVM guests. 

Hope its useful to someone.

Best,
Tim



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Hi,

 > Be sure to get Revision F (AM2 socket) and 1207 socket, not the
 > 939/940 socket. Chances are you''re only going to run into those
actually it is very often mentioned that ONLY AMD processors for the AM2 
socket do support HVM at all. I''m not sure if there are low cost CPUs 
for AM2 that do not support HVM, but at least all X2 types for the AM2 
socket do support it!
-- 

Chau y hasta luego,

Thorolf

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> -----Original Message-----
> From: xen-users-bounces@lists.xensource.com 
> [mailto:xen-users-bounces@lists.xensource.com] On Behalf Of 
> Thorolf Godawa
> Sent: 01 November 2006 07:52
> To: xen-users@lists.xensource.com
> Subject: Re: [Xen-users] Warning regarding AMD Athalon 64 
> 4200+(HVM/AMD-V)
> 
> Hi,
> 
>  > Be sure to get Revision F (AM2 socket) and 1207 socket, not the
>  > 939/940 socket. Chances are you''re only going to run into
those
> actually it is very often mentioned that ONLY AMD processors 
> for the AM2 
> socket do support HVM at all. I''m not sure if there are low cost
CPUs
> for AM2 that do not support HVM, but at least all X2 types 
> for the AM2 
> socket do support it!
All processors that are using Sockets AM2, F and S1 and that aren''t
called "Sempron" have AMD-V. Anything that isn''t in those
sockets are
INCAPABLE of AMD-V. There''s probably still plenty of older processors
in
stock in various places, so watch for the socket. Another prety easy way
to determine which processor you get in a system would be to determine
the memory type. All the new, AMD-V capable processors, have DDR2 memory
controller (this is the reason for the new socket in the first place). 

I understand that it''s a bit frustrating to not be able to tell from
the
model number (or some such) which model of processors are AMD-V capable.
However, we (as AMD) have to look at the bigger picture - AMD-V is an
important feature for a small proportion of our customers, whilst most
customers are just interested in getting good performance, quality and
value for money. To change the model numbers or other nomenclature of
the processor would mean that the customer would have to ask "Is the new
ABCD-processor as good as the old EFGH model?", and we don''t
really want
that sort of confusion. There''s a competitor out there that does
everything they can to reclaim some of the market-share they''ve got,
and
us causing our customers to be confused will certaily not help us
keep/gain marketshare - something that is part of our goal... 

--
Mats
> -- 
> 
> Chau y hasta luego,
> 
> Thorolf
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Xen-users mailing list
> Xen-users@lists.xensource.com
> http://lists.xensource.com/xen-users
> 
> 
> 


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On Wed, 2006-11-01 at 10:32 +0100, Petersson, Mats wrote:
> All processors that are using Sockets AM2, F and S1 and that
aren''t
> called "Sempron" have AMD-V.
That helps alleviate some of the confusion.
> Anything that isn''t in those sockets are
> INCAPABLE of AMD-V. There''s probably still plenty of older
processors in
> stock in various places, so watch for the socket. Another prety easy way
> to determine which processor you get in a system would be to determine
> the memory type. All the new, AMD-V capable processors, have DDR2 memory
> controller (this is the reason for the new socket in the first place). 
> 
Its hard to tell when leasing a co-located server :) The monkeys at the
data centers only go by model #.
> I understand that it''s a bit frustrating to not be able to tell
from the
> model number (or some such) which model of processors are AMD-V capable.
Only when hunting for a deal on E-bay or Froogle. Listings typically go
by model #, you have to weed through the listing or do some more digging
to get the spec sheet letting you know what socket your getting, plus
the above mentioned problem when ordering them on a monthly lease
co-located.

Since the HP''s I ran into are so common and popular, I thought
I''d
mention it.
> However, we (as AMD) have to look at the bigger picture - AMD-V is an
> important feature for a small proportion of our customers, whilst most
> customers are just interested in getting good performance, quality and
> value for money. 
And that''s exactly what AMD delivers.. was never in question. My point
in posting was to (hopefully) stop someone from making a 5 - 6 thousand
dollar mistake when buying :) The bad part about great deals on sites
like E-Bay is all sales are final. 

When shopping from a list like this :

http://wiki.xensource.com/xenwiki/HVM_Compatible_Processors

If not already familiar with AMD, Its an easy mistake to make.
> To change the model numbers or other nomenclature of
> the processor
> would mean that the customer would have to ask "Is the new
> ABCD-processor as good as the old EFGH model?", and we don''t
really want
> that sort of confusion. 
Exactly. I wasn''t criticizing :) Apologies if what I posted was
misinterpreted. Its a non issue for most newer systems anyway.
> There''s a competitor out there that does
> everything they can to reclaim some of the market-share they''ve
got,
> and
> us causing our customers to be confused will certaily not help us
> keep/gain marketshare - something that is part of our goal... 
AMD would need to work hard to lose market share. The performance /
price makes it a no-brainer.

Combined with virtualization technology, in developing countries with
inadequate or antiquated power grids (such as here in Manila) its even
more of a no-brainer. 

I wasn''t suggesting it be changed, only posting a look out :)
> --
> Mats
> > -- 
> > 
Best,
-Tim


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> For those evaluating the AMD X2 4200+ series for the purposes of running
> HVM guests, take a note below before purchasing if the server you are
> purchasing happens to be made by HP.
Buy an IBM x3650 ;)
> Again, I love AMD, and I prefer HP servers, this is not an attack on
> either, just an attempt to help folks avoid a bad experience when
> purchasing for the specific purposes of running HVM guests.
I''m curious as to how many people are doing this.
I''ve recently taken delivery of our new server that has
xeon 5063''s in it and intial experiements of Win2k3 under HVM
show pretty low network performance, which is a little
limiting.
While I''m only really looking at HVM as a interesting
experiment, I''d like to hear what other people are doing
with it...


-- 
Julian Davison
Note: 1) This may have come from an address @cbhs.school.nz
          but isn''t necessarily the (or even an) official view
          of Christchurch Boys'' High School
       2) While replying to this address may get into my mailbox
          it will almost certainly be filtered into a mailing list
          folder. To actually reach actual me, strip off the bit
          after the ''-'' in the name.

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Hi,

I used xm vcpu-set to change the number of CPUs assigned to domain-0 frm 4 
to 1 by using the command "xm vcpu-set Domain-0 1". Xen domain0 works 
properly. But when I try to re-assign 4 CPUs to domain0 by using "xm 
vcpu-set Domain-0 4". Xen hangs up and the whole system is dead.

Could anyone here explain why this will happen?

Thanks,

Liang


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On Thu, 2006-11-02 at 07:50 +1300, Julian Davison wrote:
> > For those evaluating the AMD X2 4200+ series for the purposes of
running
> > HVM guests, take a note below before purchasing if the server you are
> > purchasing happens to be made by HP.
> 
> Buy an IBM x3650 ;)
I''m too much of a bargain hunter for "lab" servers.
I''m more likely to
take supermicro specials or whatever is on sale at newegg that roughly
matches what I need. Plus I have fun assembling and building my own. Our
configurations are rather unique, buying proprietary brands gives us a
bunch of junk we don''t really need.. and we don''t do enough
volume to
warrant companies like IBM taking custom requests from us at pricing
that remains below budget.
> While I''m only really looking at HVM as a interesting
> experiment, I''d like to hear what other people are doing
> with it...
My primary business is HA/HPC clusters (building of them), specifically
to try several solutions to make a firm recommendation to a client so
they know which works best and hand the kernels / images off to their in
house guys to erect and play with.

Un modified guests lets me run several independent clusters with
unmodified kernels (such as OpenSSI) on the same physical servers,
allowing us to test several kinds of applications on said cluster type
at once.

Maximizes lab use and in some cases is even suited for production. Also
lets us hang a Windows box on the network to test & develop
administrative GUI''s to control said Linux based clusters, no more need
for a bunch of switches to simulate a few independent networks, etc. 

In essence, where once we needed a dozen test boxes , we can now get
away with 3 or 4.

HVM support keeps you from "marrying" your framework to a particular
Xen
build .. since no modification of the guest kernel is needed. We found
that we spend less time and money navigating the nuances of the hvm
loader than we would re-patching kernels (like OpenSSI) from 2.0.7 over
to 3.0.3.

When you use DC management suites like openqrm to facilitate a single
Xen image and pxe boot your nodes, its cruicial to *not* be married to a
certain version facilitating oddball para virtualized guests.

To upgrade, I simply have to place the new kernels in the pxe config and
update only 1 root image. The leap from 2.0.7 to 3.0.3 was the only
(serious) one we had to make.. the rest should be pretty easy because
the "special" guests largely remain unmodified. 

I think we squeeze a little more out of Xen than the average user,
however. The above took us well over a year to get working in such a way
that its easily re-deploy-able, and I still have a laundry list of bugs
to get out of it.

Best,
-Tim


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On 1 Nov 2006 at 11:41, Tim Post wrote:
> Be sure to get Revision F (AM2 socket) and 1207 socket, not the 939/940
> socket. Chances are you''re only going to run into those with HP
labeled
> servers.
> 
I''m by no means a specialist, but when trying to find out which AMD
CPUs would
support AMD-V, I got the impression that no socket 939 supports AMD-V, but only 
AM2 verisons. I''m not saying that any AM2 socket CPU does support
AMD-V.
My question now is: does AMD-V require extra hardware pins?

My tip for AMD marketing: Add a table "Which CPUs do dupport AMD-V"...

I have socket 939 Athlon 64 X2 3800+, so probably I''ve lost...

Regards,
Ulrich


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> -----Original Message-----
> From: xen-users-bounces@lists.xensource.com 
> [mailto:xen-users-bounces@lists.xensource.com] On Behalf Of 
> Ulrich Windl
> Sent: 02 November 2006 07:44
> To: xen-users@lists.xensource.com
> Subject: Re: [Xen-users] Warning regarding AMD Athalon 64 
> 4200+(HVM/AMD-V)
> 
> On 1 Nov 2006 at 11:41, Tim Post wrote:
> 
> > Be sure to get Revision F (AM2 socket) and 1207 socket, not 
> the 939/940
> > socket. Chances are you''re only going to run into those 
> with HP labeled
> > servers.
> > 
> 
> I''m by no means a specialist, but when trying to find out 
> which AMD CPUs would 
> support AMD-V, I got the impression that no socket 939 
> supports AMD-V, but only 
> AM2 verisons. I''m not saying that any AM2 socket CPU does 
> support AMD-V.
> My question now is: does AMD-V require extra hardware pins?
Not in itself, however, the update of the processor architecture with
the AMD-V features coincides with the update of the memory controller to
support DDR2, which I believe requires exactly the same NUMBER of pins,
but they are behaving slightly different, so therefore there''s a good
oppurtunity to change the socket - I''m not a socket architect, so I
don''t know what the exact reasons for the new socket is, but since the
old motherboards won''t work with the new processor even if it had the
same socket, it doesn''t really matter if they are the same or not [DDR2
and DDR1 are NOT directly compatible - although you could most likely
build a memory controller that supports both].
> 
> My tip for AMD marketing: Add a table "Which CPUs do dupport
AMD-V"...
Thanks - I''ve already thought of that, unfortunately, the web-team
hasn''t got it in there yet... And I have no real answer to when they
will... 

As for now, the key is "Supports DDR2 memory and isn''t called
Sempron".
> 
> I have socket 939 Athlon 64 X2 3800+, so probably I''ve lost...
You''ve got a great processor, but it''s not AMD-V capable... 
--
Mats
> 
> Regards,
> Ulrich
> 
> 
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> 
> 


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