R help - Jun 2011 - Add use of dput() to the instructions at bottom of post?

It's often difficult to figure out what a problem data set looks like when
someone pastes a mess of output from R into an e-mail.  The dput command, used
judiciously?I would hope no one would send a 1 M data set?can make life much
easier.

I wonder if it would be useful to add a hint in the instructions at the bottom
of the posting page, where the list asks for self-contained reproducible code,
to also hint at using dput() to supply sample data?

I suspect a considerable number of relatively new users do not know that it
exists--certainly that was true for me for quite a long time.

I actually thought it was in the posting guide, but I could not find it 
with a text search. Did I overlook it?

I'm not sure that adding the dput() function at the bottom of every 
e-mail will help, since you don't see it when you write an e-mail, just 
when you receive one. Though it cannot hurt to add it.

Ivan

Le 6/27/2011 15:00, John Kane a ?crit :
> It's often difficult to figure out what a problem data set looks like
when someone pastes a mess of output from R into an e-mail.  The dput command,
used judiciously?I would hope no one would send a 1 M data set?can make life
much easier.
>
> I wonder if it would be useful to add a hint in the instructions at the
bottom of the posting page, where the list asks for self-contained reproducible
code, to also hint at using dput() to supply sample data?
>
> I suspect a considerable number of relatively new users do not know that it
exists--certainly that was true for me for quite a long time.
>
> ______________________________________________
> R-help at r-project.org mailing list
> https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help
> PLEASE do read the posting guide
http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html
> and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
-- 
Ivan CALANDRA
PhD Student
University of Hamburg
Biozentrum Grindel und Zoologisches Museum
Dept. Mammalogy
Martin-Luther-King-Platz 3
D-20146 Hamburg, GERMANY
+49(0)40 42838 6231
ivan.calandra at uni-hamburg.de

**********
http://www.for771.uni-bonn.de
http://webapp5.rrz.uni-hamburg.de/mammals/eng/1525_8_1.php

Apologies David,

Every once in a while I hit the wrong reply button. The post was meant to be a
Reply All.  I'll post this one to the list.

--- On Mon, 6/27/11, David Winsemius <dwinsemius at comcast.net> wrote:
> From: David Winsemius <dwinsemius at comcast.net>
> Subject: Re: [R] Add use of dput() to the instructions at bottom of post?
> To: "John Kane" <jrkrideau at yahoo.ca>
> Received: Monday, June 27, 2011, 10:30 AM
> 
> On Jun 27, 2011, at 10:10 AM, John Kane wrote:
> 
> > A bit more complicated but it is there. However it
> also looks pretty scary for a newbie, assuming they even
> understand the purpose.
> > 
> > The real problem as David points out in another post
> is that given what we see in R-help most people don't read
> the postamble (well it's not a preamble!)? so the
> chances of them reading the Posting Guide is petty low.
> Sticking dput() in the postamble, at leas,t makes it a
> little bit easier for it to be seen.
> 
> It wasn't posted and neither was this one since you are
> replying to a private message, but I didn't say anything in
> that message I am ashamed to say in public. If you want to
> post this reply, go ahead.
> 
> I said I thought it would have the same net effect as the
> admonitions to read the Posting Guide currently appear to
> have, namely none. 

>I suggested further that only an "answer
> strike" by the contributor nucleus would have any chance of
> altering poster behavior. Perhaps we can have the analog of
> "meatless Mondays". We could see how many of the regular
> answerers would commit to ignoring posts on weekends and
> Mondays that do not include cut -and-pastable examples. A
> canned message could be sent privately (so as not to add
> more noise to the Archive) that had directions on how to
> construct an appropriate example.
I had not had time to consider this but since the mob has thinned out here I now
do.

I had not really thought that you were serious, considering that a substantial
amount of work would be required but it might be a good idea. A major problem
that I see is the fact that the list gains membership all the time so it might
only catch some but that is probably better than none as we have now.  The force
of example might also help if some posters read the list regularly.

A good time to start it, if the idea takes off, might be in the Sept-Nov period
when, I believe,  the majority of Northern Hemisphere academic institutions are
starting up after summer breaks

A canned message about how to produce an acceptable example, by itself, would be
very worth while.  In fact, I think I'll toss together one of my own for
times when I am trying to answer a question with too little information
supplied.
> 
> We could do a "clinical trial" ... add the dput suggestion,
> count the number of example-less messages in a two or three
> week period, conduct the strike, compare poster behavior.
> And yes, I do know the weaknesses of that design.
> 
Much better than nothing at all.
And a repeat 'clincial trial' every few months might help.
> --Dave
> 
> > 
> > 
> > --- On Mon, 6/27/11, David Winsemius <dwinsemius at comcast.net>
> wrote:
> > 
> >> From: David Winsemius <dwinsemius at comcast.net>
> >> Subject: Re: [R] Add use of dput() to the
> instructions at bottom of post?
> >> To: ivan.calandra at uni-hamburg.de
> >> Cc: r-help at r-project.org
> >> Received: Monday, June 27, 2011, 10:00 AM
> >> 
> >> On Jun 27, 2011, at 9:44 AM, Ivan Calandra wrote:
> >> 
> >>> I actually thought it was in the posting
> guide, but I
> >> could not find it with a text search. Did I
> overlook it?
> >> 
> >> The Posting Guide has an equivalent method it
> suggests. It
> >> has the trivial advantantage of being truly
> cut-and-pastable
> >> but the disadvantage (relative to dput) that it
> requires the
> >> object to be quoted and the file argument to be
> specified.
> >> 
> >>> dump("param", file="")
> >> param <-
> >> structure(list(pi = c(0.5552, 0.2739, 0.1709), mu
> > >> c(-0.4868,
> >> 8.3846, 12.5317), sigma = c(2.044, 1.399, 1.036)),
> .Names > >> c("pi",
> >> "mu", "sigma"), class =
"data.frame", row.names > c("1",
> >> "2",
> >> "3"))
> >> 
> >> --David.
> >>> 
> >>> I'm not sure that adding the dput() function
> at the
> >> bottom of every e-mail will help, since you don't
> see it
> >> when you write an e-mail, just when you receive
> one. Though
> >> it cannot hurt to add it.
> >>> 
> >>> Ivan
> >>> 
> >>> Le 6/27/2011 15:00, John Kane a ?crit :
> >>>> It's often difficult to figure out what a
> problem
> >> data set looks like when someone pastes a mess of
> output
> >> from R into an e-mail.? The dput command,
> used
> >> judiciously?I would hope no one would send a 1 M
> data
> >> set?can make life much easier.
> >>>> 
> >>>> I wonder if it would be useful to add a
> hint in
> >> the instructions at the bottom of the posting
> page, where
> >> the list asks for self-contained reproducible
> code, to also
> >> hint at using dput() to supply sample data?
> >>>> 
> >>>> I suspect a considerable number of
> relatively new
> >> users do not know that it exists--certainly that
> was true
> >> for me for quite a long time.
> >>>> 
> >>>>
> ______________________________________________
> >>>> R-help at r-project.org
> >> mailing list
> >>>> https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help
> >>>> PLEASE do read the posting guide
http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html
> >>>> and provide commented, minimal,
> self-contained,
> >> reproducible code.
> >>> 
> >>> --Ivan CALANDRA
> >>> PhD Student
> >>> University of Hamburg
> >>> Biozentrum Grindel und Zoologisches Museum
> >>> Dept. Mammalogy
> >>> Martin-Luther-King-Platz 3
> >>> D-20146 Hamburg, GERMANY
> >>> +49(0)40 42838 6231
> >>> ivan.calandra at uni-hamburg.de
> >>> 
> >>> **********
> >>> http://www.for771.uni-bonn.de
> >>> http://webapp5.rrz.uni-hamburg.de/mammals/eng/1525_8_1.php
> >>> 
> >>>
> ______________________________________________
> >>> R-help at r-project.org
> >> mailing list
> >>> https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help
> >>> PLEASE do read the posting guide
http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html
> >>> and provide commented, minimal,
> self-contained,
> >> reproducible code.
> >> 
> >> David Winsemius, MD
> >> West Hartford, CT
> >> 
> >> ______________________________________________
> >> R-help at r-project.org
> >> mailing list
> >> https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help
> >> PLEASE do read the posting guide
http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html
> >> and provide commented, minimal, self-contained,
> >> reproducible code.
> >> 
> 
> David Winsemius, MD
> West Hartford, CT
> 
>