Icecast - Aug 2004 - IceCast Questions.... ("id3 tags, mp3, Ogg, etc)

> How would you "switch" the users, I mean on the fly? Rewrite the
> configs so that you define the mountpoint from with the main server
> relays anew and give icecast2 a SIGHUP to re-read config?
> Anybody tried such things in practice?
I currently do something like that (I kill and restart icecast every night
at midnight so the record-to-file script can change the config to update
the current date...). It knocks users off.
> Together with this topic I might bring up the topic of a radio
> automation system. Maybe there are some tools out there, freely
> available? I don't want to / can't purchase a commercial system for
> 3000$ or something to do automation. But it should support things
> like automatic fading based on the songs (endings / beginnings of a
> song), be able to use categories to build a well-balanced playlist,
> play jingles from time to time etc.
I've looked around for a unix solution and haven't found much. I was
thinking about trying to use a system with a soundcard or three, and maybe
a midi controlled mixer (I think MOTU made a 1u rackmount midi controlled
8 stereo port mixer or such). Not really an elegant solution though, but
we could make a table that has the song name and weather or not to do a
cross fade or a hard cut (some songs end on a cymbal crash or whatever).

I was looking at NetJukebox or such, some php based playlist builder.
Figured if we categorized stuff that would be okay, but that would require
manually adding commercials and such.
> Also a Linux-solution for
> combining this with live-talk (moderation) would be really much
> appreciated. Does somebody know of any such solution out there?
We thought long and hard, and the decision was if we were ever to do a
system where people could manipulate the station from remote (over
broadband) we would probably push to use web based interface for cueing up
the "decks" and a SSH/Curses based "deck" interface that way
the
responsiveness is QUICK. There is still the issue that if streaming mp3
was used for the DJ voice over then the buffers would have to be nearly
eliminated in order to get rid fo the delay. I think it would be rough.
> I heard from time to time that many people of you are doing >10
> streams. Do you just use playlists - or maybe tools like the above
> mentioned to have fading between tracks etc. to make it sound better?
We are using it for local police / fire / rescue / air traffic type of
feeds. I just got two new (used) computers that have 16 PCI slots each.
Got 4 sound cards working in one, and monday we are going to try to get it
up to 10 in one system (which is at the point that there isn't much CPU
left, darkice @ the low bitrate at 0.8 quality *SHOULD* be able to do 10
streams on the PIII-600). Right now we have 4 Pentium II-266's each with
FreeBSD and 3 sound cards.

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> Icecast2 is fully mp3 capable as well, calling 1.x "the mp3 capable
icecast"
> indicates you didn't realise that. It also supports other (better)
formats as
> well, of course... By the way, you were looking for the word
"deprecated",
> not "depreciated" (which is a real word, but means something
entirely
> different). So anyway, you can use mp3 AND vorbis simultaneously with
> icecast2.
Didn't know Icecast2 could do mp3. I would definitly go for the dual
stream feature too (I know in the icecast config you can put multiple
encoder entries). I could be wrong, and I could be using Icecast2... It
has been a while since I set it up.... it has been pretty stable
considering the abuse we give it :-)
> vorbis is supported in WMP by external plugins - they're not built in,
and not
> auto-downloaded.
> There is a real plugin, it will soon (but not yet, afaik) be available from
> the auto-download servers.
> iTunes doesn't support it.
Ouch. Is the Vorbis codec "finalized" ? I saw some talk that they keep
improving it. If there is backwards compatibility then that is fine. Maybe
if we request iTunes add Vorbis support Apple would implement it?
> the source encoders get the metadata from id3 tags originally), I'm not
sure
> about darkice. It's pretty easy to add this sort of thing, all the hard
bits
> here are done in icecast.
Okay, in the case with using a live input (ADC) ... I haven't looked at
the latest darkice to see if the text thing has been updated.
> Not precisely. What you can do (with icecast2) is:
>     server1: /relay-mount1 <---- server2
>            : /relay-mount2 <----- server3
>
> In this setup, you might dynamically add server3/relay-mount2, as your
"new
> 2nd one". Then, you can dynamically switch users from /relay-mount1 to
> /relay-mount2, without interrupting the listeners. Then you can drop
> server2/relay-mount1.
> The above is not well tested, however, and it may interact badly with
metadata
> support. If so, this should be fixed.
Cool I will have to try it. Going to scrounge up some hardware in the next
couple of weeks and build a few systems to experiment with.
> That may also work, depending on your source program (I haven't used
darkice,
> I'm not sure of its exact capabilities).
It gets one line of text in there (the title or what not) but I haven't
seen the ability to do multiple lines (like digitially imported and others
do) or update it real time. I guess I could ask the author, but I think he
monitors this list :-)

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> well, of course... By the way, you were looking for the word
"deprecated",
> not "depreciated" (which is a real word, but means something
entirely
> different). So anyway, you can use mp3 AND vorbis simultaneously with
Oh yes, the keyboard on my notebook is getting weak. N is normally the
culprit. Instead of "pine" for email I'm forever getting pie not
found.

In this case i was missing from depreciated :-)

                                        -- Ethan

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On Fri, 18 Jul 2003, Stefan Neufeind wrote:
> Together with this topic I might bring up the topic of a radio
> automation system. Maybe there are some tools out there, freely
> available? I don't want to / can't purchase a commercial system for
> 3000$ or something to do automation. But it should support things
> like automatic fading based on the songs (endings / beginnings of a
> song), be able to use categories to build a well-balanced playlist,
> play jingles from time to time etc. Also a Linux-solution for
> combining this with live-talk (moderation) would be really much
> appreciated. Does somebody know of any such solution out there?
Yes but it's not yet released.  A guy I know has a great system that does
all this.  It's currently used to power the automated streams at
www.acbradio.org and his own station at www.bigplanetradio.com.  In
addition to what you mention, it also does narrow and wideband compression
and can read and broadcast in mp3 and ogg vorbis.  It's not currently
available to the public because he has to do a lot of paperwork for his
employer in order to release it, and it's still got some bugs and features
to address.  But it's a great system and it works well.  I know a lot of
you are looking for such a tool, so I'll make sure that you all hear about
it when it's available to the public.

Geoff.

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> How would you "switch" the users, I mean on the fly? Rewrite the
> configs so that you define the mountpoint from with the main server
> relays anew and give icecast2 a SIGHUP to re-read config?
> Anybody tried such things in practice?
Using the admin interface (web-based) - it has a way to explicitly move all 
clients from one mountpoint to another.

Mike

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On Friday 18 July 2003 11:16, Ethan wrote:
> Hello, I'm a long time user of Icecast. We currently run 12 streams on
> Icecast 1.x (Mp3). I plan to expand this to 20 streems soon. They are all
> low bitrate community service.
>
> Recently some friends and myself came across the thought of actually
> generating our own content. Music, talk, etc.
>
> I've been running the ideas of the automation setup that would be
required
> to do such a thing. I used to have a low power FM station (until the FCC
> said stop) so I have some knowldge of doing real audio. Plus someone
> involved on the project has commercial station experience.
>
> Here are some of the issues I am trying to contemplate, and how to solve
> them with Icecast:
>
> First:
>
> Ogg/Vorbis. I've always avoided it because it is still non standard. I
> know the mp3 capable Icecast is depreciated. Is Ogg/Vorbis supported in
> Windows Media Player 7-8 or newer? By this, I mean either it immediately
> works or automatically downloads the codec. Most internet users won't
ever
> bother to manually download and install codecs. I realize the later Winamp
> would support it. RealPlayer? The Apple QuickTime player?
Icecast2 is fully mp3 capable as well, calling 1.x "the mp3 capable
icecast"
indicates you didn't realise that. It also supports other (better) formats
as
well, of course... By the way, you were looking for the word
"deprecated",
not "depreciated" (which is a real word, but means something entirely 
different). So anyway, you can use mp3 AND vorbis simultaneously with 
icecast2.

vorbis is supported in WMP by external plugins - they're not built in, and
not
auto-downloaded.
There is a real plugin, it will soon (but not yet, afaik) be available from 
the auto-download servers.
iTunes doesn't support it. 

Most of the more commonly used players have support (though how good the 
support is varies). The main lack is iTunes - many mac users use it, and 
there's no support.
>
> Second:
>
> Trying to cut back and forth between local playlists of MP3s, local live
> content and remote fed content seems like a challenge. My current thought
> is to have one system that plays audio that is linked to one or more
> computers that encode the audio. This way when switching between local
> content and remote content, the stream isn't interrupted and the
listeners
> aren't dumped?
That's one approach that requires little support from the software, and
should
work fine. More infrastructure neccesary, obviously.
>
> But then comes the issue of the id3 tags. Is there any ways to trigger the
> darkice encoder to "update" the text on the player on the fly?
This is supported by icecast (it doesn't use id3 tags for this, but most of 
the source encoders get the metadata from id3 tags originally), I'm not sure
about darkice. It's pretty easy to add this sort of thing, all the hard bits
here are done in icecast. 

<p>>
> If I had 1 icecast server acting as a relay, connecting to a 2nd one,
> could I switch between "2nd ones" and not interrupt the listener?
Not precisely. What you can do (with icecast2) is:
    server1: /relay-mount1 <---- server2
           : /relay-mount2 <----- server3

In this setup, you might dynamically add server3/relay-mount2, as your "new
2nd one". Then, you can dynamically switch users from /relay-mount1 to 
/relay-mount2, without interrupting the listeners. Then you can drop 
server2/relay-mount1. 

The above is not well tested, however, and it may interact badly with metadata 
support. If so, this should be fixed.
>
> OOOOOO
>
> Wait. Maybe if we could trick it into hitting a "file" in the
playlist
> that is being written real time, that could work.....
That may also work, depending on your source program (I haven't used
darkice,
I'm not sure of its exact capabilities).
>
>
> Anyone have experience trying to push Icecast to do all of this?
Not on live systems, but I've done similar things on internal tests.

Mike

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On 18 Jul 2003 at 13:06, Michael Smith wrote:
> On Friday 18 July 2003 11:16, Ethan wrote:
> > If I had 1 icecast server acting as a relay, connecting to a 2nd
> > one, could I switch between "2nd ones" and not interrupt the
> > listener?
> 
> Not precisely. What you can do (with icecast2) is:
>     server1: /relay-mount1 <---- server2
>            : /relay-mount2 <----- server3
> 
> In this setup, you might dynamically add server3/relay-mount2, as your
> "new 2nd one". Then, you can dynamically switch users from
> /relay-mount1 to /relay-mount2, without interrupting the listeners.
> Then you can drop server2/relay-mount1. 
> 
> The above is not well tested, however, and it may interact badly with
> metadata support. If so, this should be fixed.
How would you "switch" the users, I mean on the fly? Rewrite the 
configs so that you define the mountpoint from with the main server 
relays anew and give icecast2 a SIGHUP to re-read config?
Anybody tried such things in practice?
> > Anyone have experience trying to push Icecast to do all of this?
> 
> Not on live systems, but I've done similar things on internal tests.
Together with this topic I might bring up the topic of a radio 
automation system. Maybe there are some tools out there, freely 
available? I don't want to / can't purchase a commercial system for 
3000$ or something to do automation. But it should support things 
like automatic fading based on the songs (endings / beginnings of a 
song), be able to use categories to build a well-balanced playlist, 
play jingles from time to time etc. Also a Linux-solution for 
combining this with live-talk (moderation) would be really much 
appreciated. Does somebody know of any such solution out there?
I heard from time to time that many people of you are doing >10 
streams. Do you just use playlists - or maybe tools like the above 
mentioned to have fading between tracks etc. to make it sound better?

  Stefan
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Stefan Neufeind wrote:
> I don't want to / can't purchase a commercial system for
> 3000$ or something to do automation. But it should support things
> like automatic fading based on the songs (endings / beginnings of a
> song), be able to use categories to build a well-balanced playlist,
> play jingles from time to time etc.
I don't know if you read my earlier reply but my solution does all of the
above for only US$142.20.
> Also a Linux-solution
Can't help with that, however.  Windows only.

Regards,
Ross Levis
http://www.stationplaylist.com

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> > vorbis is supported in WMP by external plugins - they're not built
in,
> > and not auto-downloaded.
> > There is a real plugin, it will soon (but not yet, afaik) be available
> > from the auto-download servers.
> > iTunes doesn't support it.
>
> Ouch. Is the Vorbis codec "finalized" ? I saw some talk that they
keep
> improving it. If there is backwards compatibility then that is fine. Maybe
> if we request iTunes add Vorbis support Apple would implement it?
Yes, the vorbis format is definately finalised (has been for well over a year, 
now). We've published the spec ourselves, but we're also persuing
publication
as an RFC, etc. While the encoder will continue to be improved, existing 
decoders will work without modification.

The more people that ask Apple for support the better, I suppose - go ahead 
and ask them!

Mike

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