>Fromwhat you describe, your comp/limiter can't possibly be workingcorrectly. It should be the last unit in line before the sound card, and needs to be adjusted properly. You also need to balance the levels on your mixing board (so that the correc t level comes at predictable place on the slider). It might be worthwhile to find someone with some sound-mixing or radio engineering experience to help you out. Sounds like you're missing some very basic stuff. Software dynamics processing is more involved than you might think. And you'd be trying to use software to solve what is basically a hardware/user problem. Furman also makes total crap. You'd be much better off with one of the newer Behringer units. Cheap but very functional. Though that doesn't negate the need to take care of the basics mentioned above. -bg www.radioparadise.com www.kpig.com> we're actually using a furman c/l already, but the levels coming into the > mixer are still all over the place. one mp3 might be much louder than > another, the phone interface is way too loud, the dj mic is too quiet,etc.> usually one of the planners ends up sitting by and adjusting the igain in > aumix. is there any software-based solution? it seems like it wouldn't be > all that hard to implement. > > -p > > > From: Reuben Martin <Reuben@FishB8.dns2go.com> > > Reply-To: icecast@xiph.org > > Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 09:41:14 -0600 > > To: icecast@xiph.org > > Cc: pharkawik@hampshire.edu > > Subject: Re: [icecast] automatic gain control > > > >> we have a web-based station running liveice and aumix and the levelsare all> >> over the place. is there a way to do automatic gain control on thesoundcard> >> input? > >> > >> -peter > > > > > > Run the signal through a Compressor/Limiter before sending it to your > > soundcard. I use Behringer Ultra-Dyne Pro DSP9024. Very nice. If you > > want to buy it look here: > > http://www.zzounds.com/love.music?p=p.BEHDSP9024&z=1221177312792 > > > > > > -Reuben > > > > > > --- >8 ---- > > List archives: http://www.xiph.org/archives/ > > icecast project homepage: http://www.icecast.org/ > > To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to'icecast-request@xiph.org'> > containing only the word 'unsubscribe' in the body. No subject isneeded.> > Unsubscribe messages sent to the list will be ignored/filtered. > > > --- >8 ---- > List archives: http://www.xiph.org/archives/ > icecast project homepage: http://www.icecast.org/ > To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to'icecast-request@xiph.org'> containing only the word 'unsubscribe' in the body. No subject is needed. > Unsubscribe messages sent to the list will be ignored/filtered.--- >8 ---- List archives: http://www.xiph.org/archives/ icecast project homepage: http://www.icecast.org/ To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to 'icecast-request@xiph.org' containing only the word 'unsubscribe' in the body. No subject is needed. Unsubscribe messages sent to the list will be ignored/filtered.
Sounds like you need to fix the problem at the source first: balancing the levels going *into* your mixing board so that they're not all over the place coming out. You'll never fix that with any hardware or software device. I use a program called ecasound to do software dynamics processing, but you'd have to hack liveice pretty extensively to use it in that situation. Software dynamics processing is pretty complex (& processor-intensive). The mini-disc recorder you speak of almost certainly uses a dedicated DSP chip (or even analog AGC). -bg www.radioparadise.com www.kpig.com> the ACG function that the compressor provides is limited at best. its > adjustment is way too audible to make full use of it in balancing levels. > yes, it is last in the chain. i'm just wondering if there's anything out > there in the way of software. if a minidisc recorder can do it, why can'ta> $1000 pc? > > -p > > > From: "William Goldsmith" <wildbill@kpig.com> > > Reply-To: icecast@xiph.org > > Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 08:36:36 -0800 > > To: <icecast@xiph.org> > > Subject: Re: [icecast] automatic gain control > > > > From what you describe, your comp/limiter can't possibly be working > > correctly. It should be the last unit in line before the sound card, and > > needs to be adjusted properly. You also need to balance the levels onyour> > mixing board (so that the correc t level comes at predictable place onthe> > slider). It might be worthwhile to find someone with some sound-mixingor> > radio engineering experience to help you out. Sounds like you're missing > > some very basic stuff. > > > > Software dynamics processing is more involved than you might think. And > > you'd be trying to use software to solve what is basically ahardware/user> > problem. > > > > Furman also makes total crap. You'd be much better off with one of thenewer> > Behringer units. Cheap but very functional. Though that doesn't negatethe> > need to take care of the basics mentioned above. > > > > -bg > > www.radioparadise.com > > www.kpig.com > > > > > > > >> we're actually using a furman c/l already, but the levels coming intothe> >> mixer are still all over the place. one mp3 might be much louder than > >> another, the phone interface is way too loud, the dj mic is too quiet, > > etc. > >> usually one of the planners ends up sitting by and adjusting the igainin> >> aumix. is there any software-based solution? it seems like it wouldn'tbe> >> all that hard to implement. > >> > >> -p > >> > >>> From: Reuben Martin <Reuben@FishB8.dns2go.com> > >>> Reply-To: icecast@xiph.org > >>> Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 09:41:14 -0600 > >>> To: icecast@xiph.org > >>> Cc: pharkawik@hampshire.edu > >>> Subject: Re: [icecast] automatic gain control > >>> > >>>> we have a web-based station running liveice and aumix and the levels > > are all > >>>> over the place. is there a way to do automatic gain control on the > > soundcard > >>>> input? > >>>> > >>>> -peter > >>> > >>> > >>> Run the signal through a Compressor/Limiter before sending it to your > >>> soundcard. I use Behringer Ultra-Dyne Pro DSP9024. Very nice. If you > >>> want to buy it look here: > >>> http://www.zzounds.com/love.music?p=p.BEHDSP9024&z=1221177312792 > >>> > >>> > >>> -Reuben > >>> > >>> > >>> --- >8 ---- > >>> List archives: http://www.xiph.org/archives/ > >>> icecast project homepage: http://www.icecast.org/ > >>> To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to > > 'icecast-request@xiph.org' > >>> containing only the word 'unsubscribe' in the body. No subject is > > needed. > >>> Unsubscribe messages sent to the list will be ignored/filtered. > >> > >> > >> --- >8 ---- > >> List archives: http://www.xiph.org/archives/ > >> icecast project homepage: http://www.icecast.org/ > >> To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to > > 'icecast-request@xiph.org' > >> containing only the word 'unsubscribe' in the body. No subject isneeded.> >> Unsubscribe messages sent to the list will be ignored/filtered. > > > > > > --- >8 ---- > > List archives: http://www.xiph.org/archives/ > > icecast project homepage: http://www.icecast.org/ > > To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to'icecast-request@xiph.org'> > containing only the word 'unsubscribe' in the body. No subject isneeded.> > Unsubscribe messages sent to the list will be ignored/filtered. > > > --- >8 ---- > List archives: http://www.xiph.org/archives/ > icecast project homepage: http://www.icecast.org/ > To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to'icecast-request@xiph.org'> containing only the word 'unsubscribe' in the body. No subject is needed. > Unsubscribe messages sent to the list will be ignored/filtered.--- >8 ---- List archives: http://www.xiph.org/archives/ icecast project homepage: http://www.icecast.org/ To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to 'icecast-request@xiph.org' containing only the word 'unsubscribe' in the body. No subject is needed. Unsubscribe messages sent to the list will be ignored/filtered.
the ACG function that the compressor provides is limited at best. its adjustment is way too audible to make full use of it in balancing levels. yes, it is last in the chain. i'm just wondering if there's anything out there in the way of software. if a minidisc recorder can do it, why can't a $1000 pc? -p> From: "William Goldsmith" <wildbill@kpig.com> > Reply-To: icecast@xiph.org > Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 08:36:36 -0800 > To: <icecast@xiph.org> > Subject: Re: [icecast] automatic gain control > > From what you describe, your comp/limiter can't possibly be working > correctly. It should be the last unit in line before the sound card, and > needs to be adjusted properly. You also need to balance the levels on your > mixing board (so that the correc t level comes at predictable place on the > slider). It might be worthwhile to find someone with some sound-mixing or > radio engineering experience to help you out. Sounds like you're missing > some very basic stuff. > > Software dynamics processing is more involved than you might think. And > you'd be trying to use software to solve what is basically a hardware/user > problem. > > Furman also makes total crap. You'd be much better off with one of the newer > Behringer units. Cheap but very functional. Though that doesn't negate the > need to take care of the basics mentioned above. > > -bg > www.radioparadise.com > www.kpig.com > > > >> we're actually using a furman c/l already, but the levels coming into the >> mixer are still all over the place. one mp3 might be much louder than >> another, the phone interface is way too loud, the dj mic is too quiet, > etc. >> usually one of the planners ends up sitting by and adjusting the igain in >> aumix. is there any software-based solution? it seems like it wouldn't be >> all that hard to implement. >> >> -p >> >>> From: Reuben Martin <Reuben@FishB8.dns2go.com> >>> Reply-To: icecast@xiph.org >>> Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 09:41:14 -0600 >>> To: icecast@xiph.org >>> Cc: pharkawik@hampshire.edu >>> Subject: Re: [icecast] automatic gain control >>> >>>> we have a web-based station running liveice and aumix and the levels > are all >>>> over the place. is there a way to do automatic gain control on the > soundcard >>>> input? >>>> >>>> -peter >>> >>> >>> Run the signal through a Compressor/Limiter before sending it to your >>> soundcard. I use Behringer Ultra-Dyne Pro DSP9024. Very nice. If you >>> want to buy it look here: >>> http://www.zzounds.com/love.music?p=p.BEHDSP9024&z=1221177312792 >>> >>> >>> -Reuben >>> >>> >>> --- >8 ---- >>> List archives: http://www.xiph.org/archives/ >>> icecast project homepage: http://www.icecast.org/ >>> To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to > 'icecast-request@xiph.org' >>> containing only the word 'unsubscribe' in the body. No subject is > needed. >>> Unsubscribe messages sent to the list will be ignored/filtered. >> >> >> --- >8 ---- >> List archives: http://www.xiph.org/archives/ >> icecast project homepage: http://www.icecast.org/ >> To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to > 'icecast-request@xiph.org' >> containing only the word 'unsubscribe' in the body. No subject is needed. >> Unsubscribe messages sent to the list will be ignored/filtered. > > > --- >8 ---- > List archives: http://www.xiph.org/archives/ > icecast project homepage: http://www.icecast.org/ > To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to 'icecast-request@xiph.org' > containing only the word 'unsubscribe' in the body. No subject is needed. > Unsubscribe messages sent to the list will be ignored/filtered.--- >8 ---- List archives: http://www.xiph.org/archives/ icecast project homepage: http://www.icecast.org/ To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to 'icecast-request@xiph.org' containing only the word 'unsubscribe' in the body. No subject is needed. Unsubscribe messages sent to the list will be ignored/filtered.
At 11:40 AM 11/14/2001 -0500, sublime@mac.com wrote:>the ACG function that the compressor provides is limited at best. its >adjustment is way too audible to make full use of it in balancing levels. >yes, it is last in the chain. i'm just wondering if there's anything out >there in the way of software. if a minidisc recorder can do it, why can't a >$1000 pc?tons of stuff for windows. i've used almost all of them at one time or another. let me know if you want me to elaborate... --- >8 ---- List archives: http://www.xiph.org/archives/ icecast project homepage: http://www.icecast.org/ To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to 'icecast-request@xiph.org' containing only the word 'unsubscribe' in the body. No subject is needed. Unsubscribe messages sent to the list will be ignored/filtered.
On Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 08:36:36AM -0800, William Goldsmith wrote:> >From what you describe, your comp/limiter can't possibly be working > correctly. It should be the last unit in line before the sound card, and > needs to be adjusted properly. You also need to balance the levels on your > mixing board (so that the correc t level comes at predictable place on the > slider). It might be worthwhile to find someone with some sound-mixing or > radio engineering experience to help you out. Sounds like you're missing > some very basic stuff.I have to agree with Bill on this. Worst case your compressor / limitor should be getting things in the ball park. If you need some help with this, drop me a line. (I am a broadcast engineer.)> Software dynamics processing is more involved than you might think. And > you'd be trying to use software to solve what is basically a hardware/user > problem. > > Furman also makes total crap. You'd be much better off with one of the newer > Behringer units. Cheap but very functional. Though that doesn't negate the > need to take care of the basics mentioned above.I have had some minor success with the Behringer units. I bought a "Composer Pro" and found that it have artifacts that are associated with lower cost units. I can't be surprised as the street price is about $150.. If you don't push these units you can get some work out of them. I found that their sweet spot is only a 10dB of range. Much beyond that they start to sound crappy. I may have mentioned this on the list in the past, but Aphex makes some rather nice boxes that do very well by having a wide dynamic range and very little artifacts. You can usually find the Compellor (compressor) and Dominator (limiter) on Ebay for about $300 and $500 respectively. Tim --- >8 ---- List archives: http://www.xiph.org/archives/ icecast project homepage: http://www.icecast.org/ To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to 'icecast-request@xiph.org' containing only the word 'unsubscribe' in the body. No subject is needed. Unsubscribe messages sent to the list will be ignored/filtered.
On Wed, 14 Nov 2001, Tim Pozar wrote:> On Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 08:36:36AM -0800, William Goldsmith wrote: > > >From what you describe, your comp/limiter can't possibly be working > > correctly. It should be the last unit in line before the sound card, and > > needs to be adjusted properly. You also need to balance the levels on your > > mixing board (so that the correc t level comes at predictable place on the > > slider). It might be worthwhile to find someone with some sound-mixing or > > radio engineering experience to help you out. Sounds like you're missing > > some very basic stuff. > > I have to agree with Bill on this. Worst case your compressor / > limitor should be getting things in the ball park. If you need > some help with this, drop me a line. (I am a broadcast engineer.)I agree also. Furthermore, I think the original author mentioned why cannot he get something like the ACG on a Minidisc? Couple of issues with that. At the end of the day, ACG really sucks, no matter how good you get it. Compressors suck to a certain extent, but ACG gives the end user no real control, it's just there. Furthermore, Minidiscs employ the ACG so that you'll get better sounding MD's. Afterall, you're throwing away quite a bit of info since you're doing compression (ATRAC I believe, and it took about 2 revisions of MD before it got good enough for people to stop laughing, hard). Since you're thowing away info, you really want it normalized and at the peak level so that when the compression of the format kicks in you're not loosing too much (headroom). Again, it's implemented in hardware. It's fast and dedicated. With computers, they might be fast, but they're a jack of all trades. You're trading away specific design purpose for flexibility. Thus, you have to code up what you need to get the job done. See below:> > Software dynamics processing is more involved than you might think. And > > you'd be trying to use software to solve what is basically a hardware/user > > problem.Hit the nail on the head. What is happening in the point of sale system is starting to happen in the audio industry, why design specific hardware when all we really need is a hardware base, we'll take care of the rest (interface, actions, functions) in software. Unfortunately for audio that often means the digital domain. For some people that's fine. For other, the analog chain is needed to keep from sucking the life out of a work.> > Furman also makes total crap.With the exception of their rackmount power distro gear, but I'm sure someone has some opinions on that too. At the time it was just what the doctor ordered for a number of people. Furman is a relative newcomer to the effect processing area, are they not? It's been awhile since I was gear drooling. I really need to start doing that again. :/> You'd be much better off with one of the newer > > Behringer units. Cheap but very functional. Though that doesn't negate the > > need to take care of the basics mentioned above. > > I have had some minor success with the Behringer units. I boughtI've unfortunately not had any experience with the Behringer's.> I may have mentioned this on the list in the past, but Aphex makes > some rather nice boxes that do very well by having a wide dynamic > range and very little artifacts. You can usually find the Compellor > (compressor) and Dominator (limiter) on Ebay for about $300 and > $500 respectively.They also make some other really neato effects gear. IIRC, I enjoyed using the dbx 170's we had in the studio, but I think those are more geared towards a studio / esoteric uses than broadcast. I've seen the Aphex's in a number of radio stations. Overall I think they'd be a wise coice. Sean... -- Believing I had supernatural powers, I slammed into a brick wall. --Paul Simon _-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_ KG4NRC www.rimboy.com <-- Your source for the crap you know you need. --- >8 ---- List archives: http://www.xiph.org/archives/ icecast project homepage: http://www.icecast.org/ To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to 'icecast-request@xiph.org' containing only the word 'unsubscribe' in the body. No subject is needed. Unsubscribe messages sent to the list will be ignored/filtered.