asterisk users - Sep 2007 - Why does everyone seem to dislike *now?

Greetings,

   Last week I began researching Asterisk for the first time. I did what most
   noobs would do; downloaded an image that seemed simple and straightforward
   and had some credibility (*now).  I also downloaded the TFOT version 1 as
   a guide.

   As questions arose, I tossed a few out in #asterisckNOW channel..and found
   it to be a ghost town.  Only later did i start to ask a few quesions in
   #asterisk...my biggest mistake was mentioning *now and I was quickly
   marked as the GUI idiot.  Not entirely untrue at this point but not
   helpful for someone who is getting started.

   Here are my first impressions:

     * The Devs have spent a LOT of time on *now and seem to be doing a
       fantastic job.
     * *now is not just a GUI...it's a complete base/reference system - I
       like that the MOST.
     * *now is a great starting point for someone new (Me).
     * *now needs documentation!  I know it's in beta, but having links to a
       down site, is not cool. (Sign me up for help if needed).
     * *now could be more geared for use as a universal tool.  The default
       contexts and files were quickly replaced with more standard configs.
     * *now could be very helpful in tracking issues with links to "Report
a
       problem" or search the WIKI from the app.

   I understand the tendency to love the CLI, but I honestly think there a
   place for a GUI in Asterisk. How many of us still use the mysql CLI? I
   can't expect my helpdesk guy to know emacs or vi just to add a user.

   Curiously,

   jc
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Not at all relevant to your query, but I still use the mysql CLI for any 
mysql task... and while most OSs have nice, functional tools to add 
users (command-line tools), there are SOME (*cough* Irix *cough*) where 
there are no CLI tools and VI is your only option (especially if you're 
remotely logged in via a term window and have no X).

GUIs have their place. But it's often a trade-off between abstracting 
the details to make things user-friendly and hiding the power that is 
available via the CLI from someone who knows it. If you're comfortable 
with the CLI, why learn another tool? If you're NOT comfortable with the 
CLI, by all means use a GUI, but don't expect people who never use it to 
be of much help when you ask questions.

That being said, I like AsteriskNow's GUI. They've obviously spent a lot
of work on it (prettier than the stuff that comes with Trixbox). 
However, for me, I learned using vi and the cli, so I can never quite 
find what I'm looking for in AsteriskNow.

N.


Jim Canfield wrote:
> Greetings,
>
> Last week I began researching Asterisk for the first time. I did what 
> most noobs would do; downloaded an image that seemed simple and 
> straightforward and had some credibility (*now).  I also downloaded 
> the TFOT version 1 as a guide.
>
> As questions arose, I tossed a few out in #asterisckNOW channel..and 
> found it to be a ghost town.  Only later did i start to ask a few 
> quesions in #asterisk...my biggest mistake was mentioning *now and I 
> was quickly marked as the GUI idiot.  Not entirely untrue at this 
> point but not helpful for someone who is getting started.
>
> Here are my first impressions:
>
>     * The Devs have spent a LOT of time on *now and seem to be doing a
>       fantastic job.
>     * *now is not just a GUI...it's a complete base/reference system -
>       I like that the MOST.
>     * *now is a great starting point for someone new (Me).
>     * *now needs documentation!  I know it's in beta, but having links
>       to a down site, is not cool. (Sign me up for help if needed).
>     * *now could be more geared for use as a universal tool.  The
>       default contexts and files were quickly replaced with more
>       standard configs.
>     * *now could be very helpful in tracking issues with links to
>       "Report a problem" or search the WIKI from the app.
>
> I understand the tendency to love the CLI, but I honestly think there 
> a place for a GUI in Asterisk. How many of us still use the mysql CLI? 
> I can't expect my helpdesk guy to know emacs or vi just to add a user.
>
> Curiously,
>
> jc
>
>
>

SIP wrote:
> Not at all relevant to your query, but I still use the mysql CLI for any 
> mysql task... and while most OSs have nice, functional tools to add 
> users (command-line tools), there are SOME (*cough* Irix *cough*) where 
> there are no CLI tools and VI is your only option (especially if you're
> remotely logged in via a term window and have no X).
>
> GUIs have their place. But it's often a trade-off between abstracting 
> the details to make things user-friendly and hiding the power that is 
> available via the CLI from someone who knows it. If you're comfortable 
> with the CLI, why learn another tool? If you're NOT comfortable with
the
> CLI, by all means use a GUI, but don't expect people who never use it
to
> be of much help when you ask questions.
>   
Thanks for the response. I agree there is a trade-off between 
abstracting details and making things user friendly. That said, I also 
believe there are huge barriers to entry when one becomes CLI 
only....I'm speaking of newcomers. A proper GUI will take the CLI into 
account and CLI will remain effective. This is true for most successful 
linux projects. I was able to create a working system *now and a CLI 
book (TFOT) w/o any real issues. Granted I did render much of the "neat 
stuff" useless. My real concern was the immediate '/ignore' for
asking
about an issue with the *now ditro that actually had nothing to do with 
the GUI itself. Truth be told, most of my time today was in the CLI 
console and the file editor...both are very nice IMHO. I see no reason 
to create a "second class" of community citizens.

Thanks again,

jc
> That being said, I like AsteriskNow's GUI. They've obviously spent
a lot
> of work on it (prettier than the stuff that comes with Trixbox). 
> However, for me, I learned using vi and the cli, so I can never quite 
> find what I'm looking for in AsteriskNow.
>
> N.
>
>

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Jim Canfield wrote:
> console and the file editor...both are very nice IMHO. I see no reason 
> to create a "second class" of community citizens.
I think it comes from the fear that without logging into an Asterisk
server and knowing what settings etc you are using, the possibilities
for problems come under a somewhat different scenario.

In the past, you could help someone sort a problem, only for the config
files to be overwritten the next time the user did something in the GUI.

I think that the GUIs are a good idea for the end customer, but for the
person who is supposed to be administering your Asterisk boxes (on a
technical level), they can sometimes get in the way.

The other problem is that if you give control of a GUI to the user of
the system you can end up with a system going down etc because the user
decided to change all the settings.

- --
Kind Regards,

Matt Riddell
Director
_______________________________________________

http://www.venturevoip.com (Great new VoIP end to end solution)
http://www.venturevoip.com/news.php (Daily Asterisk News - html)
http://feeds.venturevoip.com/AsteriskNews (Daily Asterisk News - rss)
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On 9/17/07, Jim Canfield <jcanfield at tshmail.com>
wrote:
>
>  Greetings,
>
> Last week I began researching Asterisk for the first time. I did what most
> noobs would do; downloaded an image that seemed simple and straightforward
> and had some credibility (*now).  I also downloaded the TFOT version 1 as a
> guide.
>
> As questions arose, I tossed a few out in #asterisckNOW channel..and found
> it to be a ghost town.  Only later did i start to ask a few quesions in
> #asterisk...my biggest mistake was mentioning *now and I was quickly marked
> as the GUI idiot.  Not entirely untrue at this point but not helpful for
> someone who is getting started.
>
You started in asteriskNOW, which was the right place.  No one was there, so
you decided to go to asterisk and got upset that no one would answer your
questions regarding asteriskNOW.

My guess is that there was no one there that had any experience with
asteriskNOW, if there was, they would have been on asteriskNOW as well.

What you will find is that asking gui questions in asterisk is about like
asking about the New York Giants in a New York Jets forums.  They are both
NFL teams and both from New York.  However, they both have their own fan
base and not too many people are fans of both and neither one will help you
with information regarding the other.

I may know Asterisk, and may try to help you, but when you start talking the
gui's I won't be able to help much.  Not because I'm ignoring you,
but
because I don't know the gui's.  I know the cli and have no use in
learning
the gui.

There is a asterisk-now and asterisk-gui mailing list.  Both are low volume
compared to this.  There is also some forums for asteriskNOW located at
forums.digium.com.  You may want to give the forums a try.

asteriskNOW may be suffering from the chicken and egg concept.  There aren't
enough people using it, so there aren't enough people answering questions.
There aren't enough people answering questions because there aren't
enough
people using it.

Since asteriskNOW is based on 1.4, it could be that people are in a wait and
see period.  There are a lot of people, myself included, that haven't
switched to 1.4.  I heavily use the chan_sccp project, and until things
stabilize enough on 1.4 so that chan_sccp can stabilize on 1.4, I can't
switch.

I'm sure over the next 6 to 12 months more people will be moving to 1.4, and
because of that, we'll see more activity with asteriskNOW.  The only way
it'll happen faster is if Digium hires Microsoft's marketing people to
convince everyone that everyone else is using 1.4 and they should switch
before getting left behind.  Let's face it, you don't want to be the
last
person left running an outdated piece of software (for the record, I still
use Windows 2000  and XP, and only have Vista on a test machine, so that
marketing doesn't always work).

Just hang in there and you may be one of the first pioneers using
asteriskNOW, while the rest of us dinosaurs still use the cli :-)

Here are my first impressions:
>
>    - The Devs have spent a LOT of time on *now and seem to be doing a
>    fantastic job.
>    - *now is not just a GUI...it's a complete base/reference system - I
>    like that the MOST.
>    - *now is a great starting point for someone new (Me).
>    - *now needs documentation!  I know it's in beta, but having links
>    to a down site, is not cool. (Sign me up for help if needed).
>    - *now could be more geared for use as a universal tool.  The
>    default contexts and files were quickly replaced with more standard
configs.
>    - *now could be very helpful in tracking issues with links to
>    "Report a problem" or search the WIKI from the app.
>
> I understand the tendency to love the CLI, but I honestly think there a
> place for a GUI in Asterisk. How many of us still use the mysql CLI? I
can't
> expect my helpdesk guy to know emacs or vi just to add a user.
>
> Curiously,
>
> jc
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Sign up now for AstriCon 2007!  September 25-28th.
> http://www.astricon.net/
>
> --Bandwidth and Colocation Provided by http://www.api-digital.com--
>
> asterisk-users mailing list
> To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit:
>   http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
>


-- 
Lacy Moore
Somewhere I wish I wasn't
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Also, update the asterisk GUI to what I have been working on now.

http://asterisknow.org/install-related to the asteriskNOW branch.

(This latest work includes VOIP Seamless service providers integration, and
also digital card detection and setup)

-bk
----- Original Message -----
From: "Matt Riddell" <matt at venturevoip.com>
To: "Asterisk Users Mailing List - Non-Commercial Discussion"
<asterisk-users at lists.digium.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2007 3:06:48 AM (GMT-0600) America/Chicago
Subject: Re: [asterisk-users] Useful GUI? [Was: Why does everyone seem to
dislike *now?]

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Diego Iastrubni wrote:
> s/Trixbox/FreePBX/g
> 
> Please, Trixbox is a distro, the GUI is FreePBX.
Except we were comparing with AsteriskNow - http://www.asterisknow.com/
 (a distro) rather than AsteriskGUI -
http://svn.digium.com/svn/asterisk-gui/trunk/ (a GUI).

Granted that Trixbox includes a lot more than just control for the PBX.

- --
Kind Regards,

Matt Riddell
Director
_______________________________________________

http://www.venturevoip.com (Great new VoIP end to end solution)
http://www.venturevoip.com/news.php (Daily Asterisk News - html)
http://feeds.venturevoip.com/AsteriskNews (Daily Asterisk News - rss)
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_______________________________________________

Sign up now for AstriCon 2007!  September 25-28th.  http://www.astricon.net/ 

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To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit:
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On Tue, Sep 18, 2007 at 10:03:50AM -0700, shadowym
wrote:
> You cannot set up your dialplan with the CLI or am I missing something?
> 
> Creating relatively simple dialplans manually can be quite time consuming.
> A GUI takes care of all that grunt work.
You write a dialplan with a text editor. Or copy from an existing sample
/ template.

And you use decent automation and proper includes and patterns.

GUIs often tend to force you to do time-consuming work over and over
again and get in the way of automation, which is usually trivial in a
decent command-line interface.

GUIs automate certain things. As long as you are within the "supported
flow". But once you leave it, you often have to do more work.

(Those are generic observasions. Let's not go over the GUI flamewars
again)

-- 
               Tzafrir Cohen       
icq#16849755                    jabber:tzafrir at jabber.org
+972-50-7952406           mailto:tzafrir.cohen at xorcom.com       
http://www.xorcom.com  iax:guest at local.xorcom.com/tzafrir

Hi Jim,

FWIW we'll be talking about AsteriskNow among other things on the VOIP
Users Conference this Friday at 12:30 PM. If you can't listen or phone
in live, you can check out the archive recordings later:

http://www.VoipUsersConference.org

http://www.VoipUsersConference.org/topics.php - agenda (and listen/download)

http://www.VoipUsersConference.org/astusers.htm - play in Flash player

On a personal note, I might have been interested in experiencing *now,
but you need to have an available, "trashable" piece of hardware to
use it AFAIK. If I'm wrong, I'll find out from whoever is around from
Digium to talk about the subject Friday.

Randy

On 9/17/07, Jim Canfield <jcanfield at tshmail.com>
wrote:
>
>  Greetings,
>
>  Last week I began researching Asterisk for the first time. I did what most
> noobs would do; downloaded an image that seemed simple and straightforward
> and had some credibility (*now).  I also downloaded the TFOT version 1 as a
> guide.
>
>  As questions arose, I tossed a few out in #asterisckNOW channel..and found
> it to be a ghost town.  Only later did i start to ask a few quesions in
> #asterisk...my biggest mistake was mentioning *now and I was quickly marked
> as the GUI idiot.  Not entirely untrue at this point but not helpful for
> someone who is getting started.
>
>  Here are my first impressions:
>
>
> The Devs have spent a LOT of time on *now and seem to be doing a fantastic
> job.
> *now is not just a GUI...it's a complete base/reference system - I like
that
> the MOST.
> *now is a great starting point for someone new (Me).
> *now needs documentation!  I know it's in beta, but having links to a
down
> site, is not cool. (Sign me up for help if needed).
> *now could be more geared for use as a universal tool.  The default
contexts
> and files were quickly replaced with more standard configs.
> *now could be very helpful in tracking issues with links to "Report a
> problem" or search the WIKI from the app.
>  I understand the tendency to love the CLI, but I honestly think there a
> place for a GUI in Asterisk. How many of us still use the mysql CLI? I
can't
> expect my helpdesk guy to know emacs or vi just to add a user.
>
>  Curiously,
>
>  jc
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Sign up now for AstriCon 2007!  September 25-28th. 
http://www.astricon.net/
>
> --Bandwidth and Colocation Provided by http://www.api-digital.com--
>
> asterisk-users mailing list
> To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit:
>
> http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
>