theora dev - Jan 2003 - Re: Ogg Internet Drafts - create application/ogg-vorbis, application/ogg-tarkin, etc.

Dear David,

I hope it's ok to forward your email to the developer lists. I have not
seen a comprehensive scheme for MIME type naming and file extensions for
ogg files yet - please anybody put me in the picture if there is.

However, I have seen application/x-ogg used for ogg-vorbis files, which
is according to MIME type registration rules an unregistered and
experimental MIME type (see RFC2048) and seems to have worked so far for
ogg-based files. I understand your issues on having application/ogg as
an all-encompassing MIME type, as ogg by itself cannot determine the
further type of content included. Therefore your idea about having more
specific MIME types makes sense.

Yet, I don't believe that application/ogg-tarkin or
application/ogg-vorbis should be chosen, as "application/" to me flags
that the content of the file can only be determined by an application
that can read this specific type of file. In my opinion, vorbis should
be audio/ogg-vorbis because vorbis itself is an encoding format that
makes sense in containers only, such as ogg or rtp. Tarkin on the other
hand is a combination of vorbis and VP3 plus a media mapping onto ogg
such that video/tarkin might make sense, though would not be logical to
the outside world. 

As for file extensions - I've seen theora files also end in .ogg .

Cheers,

Silvia.

<p>David Wheeler wrote:
> 
> Thanks SO MUCH for creating Internet Drafts;
> I cannot begin to tell you how important
> it would be to create IETF RFCs for Ogg and Vorbis (and Tarkin, etc.).
> 
> However, I believe there should NOT be a _single_ MIME type for ogg.
> After all, it may contain different codecs, and different application
> programs may only handle certain codecs.  I believe the MIME type
> should identify the codec as well as the fact that it's ogg.
> 
> For example, many people have _separate_ applications for audio-only
> instead of audio+video.  It would be better if they could start the
> "right" application using just the MIME type information (instead
of
> awkward two-stage start-ups that are different than anything else).
> At the least, I suspect there is a need to have different MIME types
> for audio-only vs. video.
> 
> Also, not all applications can handle all codecs, even if they handle
> that kind of media; that would be ESPECIALLY true if Ogg supports multiple
> codecs... which it does.
> 
> Thus, I believe the MIME type should identify both Ogg & the codec.
> Perhaps an application/ogg-vorbis, application/ogg-tarkin, etc.
> You could also register application/ogg (to be used when a more specific
> MIME type isn't available).  Ideally the standard filename extensions
> should be different too; Ogg Vorbis could be ".ogg" since
that's become
> so common, Ogg Tarkin could be ".ogt", etc.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> --- David A. Wheeler
>      dwheeler@ida.org
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> David Wheeler wrote:
> > 
> > Thanks SO MUCH for creating Internet Drafts;
> > I cannot begin to tell you how important
> > it would be to create IETF RFCs for Ogg and Vorbis (and Tarkin, etc.).
> > 
> > However, I believe there should NOT be a _single_ MIME type for ogg.
> > After all, it may contain different codecs, and different application
> > programs may only handle certain codecs.  I believe the MIME type
> > should identify the codec as well as the fact that it's ogg.
Unfortunately, an Ogg file can (and will) contain different codecs in
the same file. Imagine a file that contains two chained groups of
multiplexed bitstreams. The first group contains vorbis, vp3, speex, and
subtitle streams. The second group contains FLAC, MNG, and MIDI streams.
[The fact that it's hard to envision a use for this monster doesn't
negate the fact that such a monster is still a perfectly valid Ogg
file.]

What would its MIME type be?
> > For example, many people have _separate_ applications for audio-only
> > instead of audio+video.  It would be better if they could start the
> > "right" application using just the MIME type information
(instead of
> > awkward two-stage start-ups that are different than anything else).
> > At the least, I suspect there is a need to have different MIME types
> > for audio-only vs. video.
So, which one is the right handler for the above monster? I think it
would be an application that can identify the codecs inside an Ogg file
and route each stream to its appropriate decoder.

For special cases, there are special considerations. E.g. an Ogg Vorbis
file (by definition an Ogg file that contains Vorbis streams that are
not multiplexed, only chained at the most) is allowed to have
audio/x-vorbis as its MIME type. [But it would still be allowed to be of
type application/ogg or application/x-ogg, since it is an Ogg file,
after all.]
 
> > Also, not all applications can handle all codecs, even if they handle
> > that kind of media; that would be ESPECIALLY true if Ogg supports
multiple
> > codecs... which it does.
Which is why it's especially important to have one application that
handles the Ogg and routes each bitstream to the appropriate decoder.
 
> > Thus, I believe the MIME type should identify both Ogg & the
codec.
> > Perhaps an application/ogg-vorbis, application/ogg-tarkin, etc.
> > You could also register application/ogg (to be used when a more
specific
> > MIME type isn't available).  Ideally the standard filename
extensions
> > should be different too; Ogg Vorbis could be ".ogg" since
that's become
> > so common, Ogg Tarkin could be ".ogt", etc.
Ideally? You seem to be stuck in a world of operating systems that need
a specific filename extension to identify a file type.

Best regards,

Carsten Haese

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Silvia.Pfeiffer@csiro.au wrote:
> Dear David,
> 
> I hope it's ok to forward your email to the developer lists.
<p>ABSOLUTELY! I'm sorry I didn't make that clear.  Indeed, please
get as much buy-in as you can.  Please post this email too.
>I have not
> seen a comprehensive scheme for MIME type naming and file extensions for
> ogg files yet - please anybody put me in the picture if there is.
<p>I don't think people have really worried that hard about it --
they've
been more worried about getting the algorithms and basic implementation
working.  So NOW is the time to do so.

 
> However, I have seen application/x-ogg used for ogg-vorbis files, which
> is according to MIME type registration rules an unregistered and
> experimental MIME type (see RFC2048) and seems to have worked so far for
> ogg-based files. I understand your issues on having application/ogg as
> an all-encompassing MIME type, as ogg by itself cannot determine the
> further type of content included. Therefore your idea about having more
> specific MIME types makes sense.
<p>Great.  I've read RFC 2048 (a while ago), so I remember the x-
convention.  But when you register for
a "real" name, it's exactly the right time to think about the
future
to determine what the "true" name should be.

So, it makes sense that we're having this conversation NOW, and it's
appropriate to do so.  RFC 2046 (http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2046.txt)
seems to also have some useful recommendations.

<p><p>> Yet, I don't believe that application/ogg-tarkin
or
> application/ogg-vorbis should be chosen, as "application/" to me
flags
> that the content of the file can only be determined by an application
> that can read this specific type of file. In my opinion, vorbis should
> be audio/ogg-vorbis because vorbis itself is an encoding format that
> makes sense in containers only, such as ogg or rtp.
<p>That's a good point.  Okay, "audio/ogg-vorbis" sounds
perfect for Ogg Vorbis.
The issue is that the user should be able to figure out what program to
run, given only the MIME type - "ogg" doesn't give them enough
information,
but "ogg-vorbis" does.  Since ".ogg" is typically Ogg
Vorbis, it's okay
that it be the default filetype.  If that seems to be a problem, then
the community needs to define a new filetype extension pronto and
propogate that (".vor", anyone?).

This is especially important since there are other audio encodings in Ogg.
You may as well plan for "audio/ogg-speex", for example.
> Tarkin on the other
> hand is a combination of vorbis and VP3 plus a media mapping onto ogg
> such that video/tarkin might make sense, though would not be logical to
> the outside world.
<p>I think it _is_ reasonable to say that if a there is a media player
for a video feed (like Tarkin), it must also support a "default"
audio encoding (like Vorbis).  Thus, for Tarkin, say:

video/ogg-tarkin

with the requirement that any Tarkin viewer must also be prepared for
any embedded Vorbis audio data.  That way, the video & audio streams can
be synchronized.  A Tarkin viewer may not have a speaker, of course, but
that's a different problem :-).

RFC 2046 encourages audio & video streams be placed in separate
MIME containers.  That's more flexible, but that seems impractical for
most typical uses. RFC 2046 recognizes this, and permits it. Section 4.4 says:
  Note that although in general this document strongly discourages the
  mixing of multiple media in a single body, it is recognized that many
  so-called video formats include a representation for synchronized
  audio, and this [is ex]plicitly permitted for subtypes of "video".

You could define other MIME types if you wanted to combine other codecs
into a single stream, e.g., "video/ogg-tarkin-speex".  That way, the
simple "video/ogg-tarkin" can handle all things (interoperable!),
while
specialized applications like videophones can use funky MIME types to
indicate exactly what they're sending.

<p>> As for file extensions - I've seen theora files also end in
.ogg .

<p>No doubt because no one has suggested a specific file extension.
SO.. the community should define one.

I think that if Xiph declared the official file endings for the various
codecs, everyone would quickly get on board, esp. for the formats other
than Ogg Vorbis (since they are not yet so widely deployed).

In short, I think the community needs to identify official MIME types and
standard file extensions for each of the Ogg codecs, for use in themselves,
and propose them to the IETF.  If Xiph (particularly Monty) and the IETF
IANA agree on them, I think that everyone else will happily use them.

I would suggest, in fact, that you register _all_ the Ogg codecs
(current Xiph projects) _NOW_, so that everyone will have an easier time
of things.  If the IETF doesn't want to register some of the "in
work"
codecs, at least declare one in-house like "video/x-ogg-tarkin" so
that
the transition plan and proposal for the IETF is clear.

<p>--- David A. Wheeler

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Hi all,

let me summarise what I've learnt from the discussion and hope to
progress us towards a comprehensive MIME typing scheme that makes
everybody happy.

1) "application/ogg":
On the one hand, we should have the generic MIME type
"application/ogg"
and the generic file extension ".ogg" for anything that uses the Ogg
container format. I guess for the moment there is no generic application
that can handle all existing defined ogg media mappings (such as
ogg-speex, ogg-vorbis, ogg-theora). But that can of course be built and
then we are on a line with Quicktime, Microsoft media player and
RealPlayer. 

Those three by the way can understand several MIME types, e.g. Quicktime
understands "video/quicktime" but also things like
"audio/aiff",
"audio/wav", "audio/midi", "video/avi",
"audio/mpeg", and "video/mpeg".
One word of caution here, though: while those three each try to dominate
the market with their application and do not want others to use their
container format, Ogg is open and many people have started picking up
the Ogg container format for their encoding format by only having to
define a media mapping. Therefore, it will be difficult to maintain a
generic application that will be able to interprete any random Ogg file,
because the Ogg container by itself does not know what kind of data it
carries.

2) encoded bitstreams:
On the other hand, we have several different types of encoder formats
that may need to be generically identified:
"video/vp3"
"audio/vorbis"
"audio/speex"
would identify just the encoded bitstream independent of the container.
I am not sure if these are necessary, but maybe somebody has an idea for
a use of it.

3) Ogg as container:
As a level in between, we should identify a valid Ogg bitstream
containing one or more encoded bitstreams together with their defined
media mapping:
"video/ogg-theora"
"audio/ogg-vorbis"
"audio/ogg-speex"

4) Other containers:
In a similar manner, encoded bitstreams in different container formats
would need a different MIME type again, e.g. using RTP as a container
format:
"video/rtp-theora"
"audio/rtp-vorbis"
"audio/rtp-speex"

COMMENT:
I read that there are efforts under way with the IETF to register
"audio/speex" for speex over RTP
(http://www.speex.org/drafts/draft-herlein-speex-rtp-profile-05.txt)
which is not conform to this proposal. How far is that progressed?

<p>Now, leading on from here to file extensions is a different issue. I
would recommend to have different file extensions for each of the
defined Ogg media mappings ogg-theora, ogg-vorbis and ogg-speex. My
reasoning is that it makes it easier for programs to map from the file
extension to the MIME type and from there to the application to use
without having to look inside the file. My check of MIME types also
found that mostly a MIME type maps to many file extensions, but one file
extension belongs mostly to one MIME type only. I believe that for speex
a distinct extension ".spx" is already in use. Any takes?

<p>Sorry for the lengthy email. And also sorry for mixing up theora and
tarkin before. They are of course distinct and once tarkin works it can
follow the same proposed scheme above.

Cheers,

Silvia.

<p><p>Silvia.Pfeiffer@csiro.au wrote:
> 
> Dear David,
> 
> I hope it's ok to forward your email to the developer lists. I have not
> seen a comprehensive scheme for MIME type naming and file extensions for
> ogg files yet - please anybody put me in the picture if there is.
> 
> However, I have seen application/x-ogg used for ogg-vorbis files, which
> is according to MIME type registration rules an unregistered and
> experimental MIME type (see RFC2048) and seems to have worked so far for
> ogg-based files. I understand your issues on having application/ogg as
> an all-encompassing MIME type, as ogg by itself cannot determine the
> further type of content included. Therefore your idea about having more
> specific MIME types makes sense.
> 
> Yet, I don't believe that application/ogg-tarkin or
> application/ogg-vorbis should be chosen, as "application/" to me
flags
> that the content of the file can only be determined by an application
> that can read this specific type of file. In my opinion, vorbis should
> be audio/ogg-vorbis because vorbis itself is an encoding format that
> makes sense in containers only, such as ogg or rtp. Tarkin on the other
> hand is a combination of vorbis and VP3 plus a media mapping onto ogg
> such that video/tarkin might make sense, though would not be logical to
> the outside world.
> 
> As for file extensions - I've seen theora files also end in .ogg .
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Silvia.
> 
> David Wheeler wrote:
> >
> > Thanks SO MUCH for creating Internet Drafts;
> > I cannot begin to tell you how important
> > it would be to create IETF RFCs for Ogg and Vorbis (and Tarkin, etc.).
> >
> > However, I believe there should NOT be a _single_ MIME type for ogg.
> > After all, it may contain different codecs, and different application
> > programs may only handle certain codecs.  I believe the MIME type
> > should identify the codec as well as the fact that it's ogg.
> >
> > For example, many people have _separate_ applications for audio-only
> > instead of audio+video.  It would be better if they could start the
> > "right" application using just the MIME type information
(instead of
> > awkward two-stage start-ups that are different than anything else).
> > At the least, I suspect there is a need to have different MIME types
> > for audio-only vs. video.
> >
> > Also, not all applications can handle all codecs, even if they handle
> > that kind of media; that would be ESPECIALLY true if Ogg supports
multiple
> > codecs... which it does.
> >
> > Thus, I believe the MIME type should identify both Ogg & the
codec.
> > Perhaps an application/ogg-vorbis, application/ogg-tarkin, etc.
> > You could also register application/ogg (to be used when a more
specific
> > MIME type isn't available).  Ideally the standard filename
extensions
> > should be different too; Ogg Vorbis could be ".ogg" since
that's become
> > so common, Ogg Tarkin could be ".ogt", etc.
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
> > --- David A. Wheeler
> >      dwheeler@ida.org
> --- >8 ----
> List archives:  http://www.xiph.org/archives/
> Ogg project homepage: http://www.xiph.org/ogg/
> To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to
'theora-dev-request@xiph.org'
> containing only the word 'unsubscribe' in the body.  No subject is
needed.
> Unsubscribe messages sent to the list will be ignored/filtered.
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On Thu, 2 Jan 2003 Silvia.Pfeiffer@csiro.au wrote:
> Yet, I don't believe that application/ogg-tarkin or
> application/ogg-vorbis should be chosen, as "application/" to me
flags
> that the content of the file can only be determined by an application
> that can read this specific type of file. In my opinion, vorbis should
> be audio/ogg-vorbis because vorbis itself is an encoding format that
> makes sense in containers only, such as ogg or rtp.
I agree with Silvia. The above is also the view of the IETF. We want
audio/vorbis for Vorbis audio, no matter if it is inside an Ogg or RTP
stream (or anything else for that matter, for example Quicktime)

audio/vorbis is to signify vorbis audio encoding no matter if it is
encapsulated in ogg or RTP or whatever IETF standard. Eg audio/ogg-vorbis
would be highly inapropriate. This has been discussed with the
relevant IETF groups in the past, and also announced on the IANA content
type mailing list.

Accordingly video/theora will most likely be used for theora over Ogg
streams, RTP etc.

Any disagreements, please draft your own Internet Drafts and add to the
IETF repository and we'll weigh them against each other and have a chat
with considered parties.

Linus

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Sylvia Pfeiffer said:

<p>> Now, leading on from here to file extensions is a different issue.
I
> would recommend to have different file extensions for each of the
> defined Ogg media mappings ogg-theora, ogg-vorbis and ogg-speex. My
> reasoning is that it makes it easier for programs to map from the file
> extension to the MIME type and from there to the application to use
> without having to look inside the file. My check of MIME types also
> found that mostly a MIME type maps to many file extensions, but one file
> extension belongs mostly to one MIME type only.
<p>Note that the MIME registration procecedures request that a file
extension be defined also for each MIME type.  You're quite right -
a given file extension should map to one MIME type, since that way
file managers, web servers, etc. can quickly determine what the MIME type
is and/or what helper program to run.

Note that there are still advantages to defining a three-character
file extension (!).  3-character extensions are slightly constraining,
but they are far more portable.  In particular, CD-ROMs are typically
burned using a format based on MS-DOS (3-character only extensions), plus
an operating-system-specific extension that isn't understood by everyone
(Joliet = Windows, Rock River = Unix/Linux, Mac = MacOS).

Thus, if you want users to be able to easily burn a CD from any system,
and have it play correctly on any player (particularly embedded systems
that only understand the MS-DOS catalog), you'd better have a 3-character
extension that gives enough information on what helper application to run.

Thankfully, ".ogX" (where X is variable) doesn't seem to be widely
used,
so there's lots of room for the common formats.

<p>--- David A. Wheeler
     dwheeler@ida.org

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[sorry for the previously wrong speex-dev address]

Hi all,

let me summarise what I've learnt from the discussion and hope to
progress us towards a comprehensive MIME typing scheme that makes
everybody happy.

1) "application/ogg":
On the one hand, we should have the generic MIME type
"application/ogg"
and the generic file extension ".ogg" for anything that uses the Ogg
container format. I guess for the moment there is no generic application
that can handle all existing defined ogg media mappings (such as
ogg-speex, ogg-vorbis, ogg-theora). But that can of course be built and
then we are on a line with Quicktime, Microsoft media player and
RealPlayer. 

Those three by the way can understand several MIME types, e.g. Quicktime
understands "video/quicktime" but also things like
"audio/aiff",
"audio/wav", "audio/midi", "video/avi",
"audio/mpeg", and "video/mpeg".
One word of caution here, though: while those three each try to dominate
the market with their application and do not want others to use their
container format, Ogg is open and many people have started picking up
the Ogg container format for their encoding format by only having to
define a media mapping. Therefore, it will be difficult to maintain a
generic application that will be able to interprete any random Ogg file,
because the Ogg container by itself does not know what kind of data it
carries.

2) encoded bitstreams:
On the other hand, we have several different types of encoder formats
that may need to be generically identified:
"video/vp3"
"audio/vorbis"
"audio/speex"
would identify just the encoded bitstream independent of the container.
I am not sure if these are necessary, but maybe somebody has an idea for
a use of it.

3) Ogg as container:
As a level in between, we should identify a valid Ogg bitstream
containing one or more encoded bitstreams together with their defined
media mapping:
"video/ogg-theora"
"audio/ogg-vorbis"
"audio/ogg-speex"

4) Other containers:
In a similar manner, encoded bitstreams in different container formats
would need a different MIME type again, e.g. using RTP as a container
format:
"video/rtp-theora"
"audio/rtp-vorbis"
"audio/rtp-speex"

COMMENT:
I read that there are efforts under way with the IETF to register
"audio/speex" for speex over RTP
(http://www.speex.org/drafts/draft-herlein-speex-rtp-profile-05.txt)
which is not conform to this proposal. How far is that progressed?

<p>Now, leading on from here to file extensions is a different issue. I
would recommend to have different file extensions for each of the
defined Ogg media mappings ogg-theora, ogg-vorbis and ogg-speex. My
reasoning is that it makes it easier for programs to map from the file
extension to the MIME type and from there to the application to use
without having to look inside the file. My check of MIME types also
found that mostly a MIME type maps to many file extensions, but one file
extension belongs mostly to one MIME type only. I believe that for speex
a distinct extension ".spx" is already in use. Any takes?

<p>Sorry for the lengthy email. And also sorry for mixing up theora and
tarkin before. They are of course distinct and once tarkin works it can
follow the same proposed scheme above.

Cheers,

Silvia.

<p><p>Silvia.Pfeiffer@csiro.au wrote:
> 
> Dear David,
> 
> I hope it's ok to forward your email to the developer lists. I have not
> seen a comprehensive scheme for MIME type naming and file extensions for
> ogg files yet - please anybody put me in the picture if there is.
> 
> However, I have seen application/x-ogg used for ogg-vorbis files, which
> is according to MIME type registration rules an unregistered and
> experimental MIME type (see RFC2048) and seems to have worked so far for
> ogg-based files. I understand your issues on having application/ogg as
> an all-encompassing MIME type, as ogg by itself cannot determine the
> further type of content included. Therefore your idea about having more
> specific MIME types makes sense.
> 
> Yet, I don't believe that application/ogg-tarkin or
> application/ogg-vorbis should be chosen, as "application/" to me
flags
> that the content of the file can only be determined by an application
> that can read this specific type of file. In my opinion, vorbis should
> be audio/ogg-vorbis because vorbis itself is an encoding format that
> makes sense in containers only, such as ogg or rtp. Tarkin on the other
> hand is a combination of vorbis and VP3 plus a media mapping onto ogg
> such that video/tarkin might make sense, though would not be logical to
> the outside world.
> 
> As for file extensions - I've seen theora files also end in .ogg .
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Silvia.
> 
> David Wheeler wrote:
> >
> > Thanks SO MUCH for creating Internet Drafts;
> > I cannot begin to tell you how important
> > it would be to create IETF RFCs for Ogg and Vorbis (and Tarkin, etc.).
> >
> > However, I believe there should NOT be a _single_ MIME type for ogg.
> > After all, it may contain different codecs, and different application
> > programs may only handle certain codecs.  I believe the MIME type
> > should identify the codec as well as the fact that it's ogg.
> >
> > For example, many people have _separate_ applications for audio-only
> > instead of audio+video.  It would be better if they could start the
> > "right" application using just the MIME type information
(instead of
> > awkward two-stage start-ups that are different than anything else).
> > At the least, I suspect there is a need to have different MIME types
> > for audio-only vs. video.
> >
> > Also, not all applications can handle all codecs, even if they handle
> > that kind of media; that would be ESPECIALLY true if Ogg supports
multiple
> > codecs... which it does.
> >
> > Thus, I believe the MIME type should identify both Ogg & the
codec.
> > Perhaps an application/ogg-vorbis, application/ogg-tarkin, etc.
> > You could also register application/ogg (to be used when a more
specific
> > MIME type isn't available).  Ideally the standard filename
extensions
> > should be different too; Ogg Vorbis could be ".ogg" since
that's become
> > so common, Ogg Tarkin could be ".ogt", etc.
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
> > --- David A. Wheeler
> >      dwheeler@ida.org
> --- >8 ----
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