Xen users - Apr 2008 - Re: How much is involved in porting a new OS to Xen fullvirtualizaiton?

Well, first, you''re going to have a lot of trouble getting anyone to
touch SCO these days.  With all the legal stuff they''ve pulled over the
past couple of years I''m sure that no one is going to be eager to get
in their way on purpose.
 
What issues are you having getting SCO to run under XEN?  Theoretically, with
XEN HVM support, you ought to be able to run just about any O/S.  XEN HVMs
emulate a standard set of hardware similar to VMware, so you just need to figure
out what the hardware is and make sure the correct drivers are loaded. 
I''ve run into some issues with O/Ss on XEN HVMs, but mostly
they''re older O/Ss that don''t support idle calls to the CPU
(like DOS with Symantec Ghost).  Let us know what trouble you''re having
with OpenServer and maybe someone out there has experience getting it to run on
XEN.
 
If it doesn''t run on XEN at all, making it work would probably involve
something like writing device drivers that support the XEN hardware.  Also, you
can bet there will be a difference between the default drivers included with the
O/S and optimized drivers - similar to VMware''s Tools and the PV
drivers for Windows under XEN.  Writing the optimized ("PV") drivers
is going to be the next step, and I''m afraid I can''t help you
there and that you''ll run into a lot of people who don''t want
to touch SCO - either out of fear or out of disgust.
 
-Nick
>>> On 2008/04/11 at 01:45, Nico Kadel-Garcia <nkadel@gmail.com>
wrote:
I''m looking at SCO OpenServer 5.0.6, for various reasons. I contacted 
Citrix, and they weren''t interested in pursuing it as a new 
virtualization platform, so I''m stuck with VMware. But I''m
finding
VMware to be less snappy than I remember Xen being for other operating 
systems (and I''ve tried RHEL on both systems), and to have less
graceful
overall system tools for the server.

So, I''m thinking: what''s involved in getting Xen to support a
new OS for
full virtualization? I''ve got a Dell server running RHEL 5.1 with
plenty
of disk and RAM, Intel chips with full virtualization turned on, it 
boots up from the installation CD and then hangs. This happens with 
RHEL''s provided Xen software, the Xen 3.2 downloads, the commercial Xen
server from Citrix, etc. So, what is involved in the debugging process 
for new guest OS''s? Is there any estimate of how painful it would be to
do?

SCO Openserver is running fine under VMware Workstation, telling it to 
use IDE disks instead of the driver complexity to use SCSI. So I assume 
that in theory, Xen could support a similar configuration, and get me 
away from the VMware bugs of refusing to admit that the image is being 
installed on another partition and the available space is from *THAT* 
partition, not my / partition. And the VMware init scripts don''t handle
auto-starting your multiple virtual images well except from a VNC, which 
I consider to be iinsane.




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This could also be related to the bad implementation of real mode on intel.
I have been having a lot of troubles getting the boot opensolaris in HVM on
intel, but it boots just fine on AMD/Pacifica.
i heard that even Suse has troubles booting on intel in HVM.
Do you have any Pacifica-capable AMD hardware to try this on ?

Ban

On Fri, Apr 11, 2008 at 2:04 PM, Nick Couchman <Nick.Couchman@seakr.com>
wrote:
>  Well, first, you''re going to have a lot of trouble getting anyone
to
> touch SCO these days.  With all the legal stuff they''ve pulled
over the past
> couple of years I''m sure that no one is going to be eager to get
in their
> way on purpose.
>
> What issues are you having getting SCO to run under XEN?  Theoretically,
> with XEN HVM support, you ought to be able to run just about any O/S.  XEN
> HVMs emulate a standard set of hardware similar to VMware, so you just need
> to figure out what the hardware is and make sure the correct drivers are
> loaded.  I''ve run into some issues with O/Ss on XEN HVMs, but
mostly they''re
> older O/Ss that don''t support idle calls to the CPU (like DOS with
Symantec
> Ghost).  Let us know what trouble you''re having with OpenServer
and maybe
> someone out there has experience getting it to run on XEN.
>
> If it doesn''t run on XEN at all, making it work would probably
involve
> something like writing device drivers that support the XEN hardware.  Also,
> you can bet there will be a difference between the default drivers included
> with the O/S and optimized drivers - similar to VMware''s Tools and
the PV
> drivers for Windows under XEN.  Writing the optimized ("PV")
drivers is
> going to be the next step, and I''m afraid I can''t help
you there and that
> you''ll run into a lot of people who don''t want to touch
SCO - either out of
> fear or out of disgust.
>
> -Nick
>
>
> >>> On 2008/04/11 at 01:45, Nico Kadel-Garcia
<nkadel@gmail.com> wrote:
> I''m looking at SCO OpenServer 5.0.6, for various reasons. I
contacted
> Citrix, and they weren''t interested in pursuing it as a new
> virtualization platform, so I''m stuck with VMware. But
I''m finding
> VMware to be less snappy than I remember Xen being for other operating
> systems (and I''ve tried RHEL on both systems), and to have less
graceful
> overall system tools for the server.
>
> So, I''m thinking: what''s involved in getting Xen to
support a new OS for
> full virtualization? I''ve got a Dell server running RHEL 5.1 with
plenty
> of disk and RAM, Intel chips with full virtualization turned on, it
> boots up from the installation CD and then hangs. This happens with
> RHEL''s provided Xen software, the Xen 3.2 downloads, the
commercial Xen
> server from Citrix, etc. So, what is involved in the debugging process
> for new guest OS''s? Is there any estimate of how painful it would
be to
> do?
>
> SCO Openserver is running fine under VMware Workstation, telling it to
> use IDE disks instead of the driver complexity to use SCSI. So I assume
> that in theory, Xen could support a similar configuration, and get me
> away from the VMware bugs of refusing to admit that the image is being
> installed on another partition and the available space is from *THAT*
> partition, not my / partition. And the VMware init scripts don''t
handle
> auto-starting your multiple virtual images well except from a VNC, which
> I consider to be iinsane.
>
>
> ------------------------------
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sven waeyenbergh wrote:
> This could also be related to the bad implementation of real mode on 
> intel.
> I have been having a lot of troubles getting the boot opensolaris in 
> HVM on intel, but it boots just fine on AMD/Pacifica.
> i heard that even Suse has troubles booting on intel in HVM.
> Do you have any Pacifica-capable AMD hardware to try this on ?
>
> Ban
I''m afraid not: I''ve really only got one platform I can play
with this
on, and it''s Intel.

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Nick Couchman wrote:
> Well, first, you''re going to have a lot of trouble getting anyone
to
> touch SCO these days.  With all the legal stuff they''ve pulled
over
> the past couple of years I''m sure that no one is going to be eager
to
> get in their way on purpose.
>  
> What issues are you having getting SCO to run under XEN?  
> Theoretically, with XEN HVM support, you ought to be able to run just 
> about any O/S.  XEN HVMs emulate a standard set of hardware similar to 
> VMware, so you just need to figure out what the hardware is and make 
> sure the correct drivers are loaded.  I''ve run into some issues
with
> O/Ss on XEN HVMs, but mostly they''re older O/Ss that
don''t support
> idle calls to the CPU (like DOS with Symantec Ghost).  Let us know 
> what trouble you''re having with OpenServer and maybe someone out
there
> has experience getting it to run on XEN.
>  
> If it doesn''t run on XEN at all, making it work would probably
involve
> something like writing device drivers that support the XEN hardware.  
> Also, you can bet there will be a difference between the default 
> drivers included with the O/S and optimized drivers - similar to 
> VMware''s Tools and the PV drivers for Windows under XEN.  Writing
the
> optimized ("PV") drivers is going to be the next step, and
I''m afraid
> I can''t help you there and that you''ll run into a lot of
people who
> don''t want to touch SCO - either out of fear or out of disgust.
>  
> -Nick
It''s appreciated: I''m on a contract to migrate SCO based
software to
RHEL, and there are plenty of legacy fiscal and medical systems that are 
running software which is needed for legacy data access, doesn''t have 
source code for migration, or for which the owners lack the resources to 
do the software migration. So getting it running in a clean Xen-ified 
environment would be a showpiece for open source superiority, and ease 
the migration pain by providing an open source supported virtualization 
environment. I''d be thrilled to migrate the active services to Xenified
virtual images, in order to free hardware for other uses and have 
managable OS images without the backup requirements of maintaining live 
systems or having to re-install the OS on future virtualization platforms.

The theory of everything working under HVM is good, but when I boot RHEL 
5.1 provided Xen with a scrubbed disk image, mounted as an IDE drive and 
using the installation CD, it gets to the installation scanning for 
hardware on the CD and fails to detect the drive. My suspicion, thinking 
about it, is that the virtualized IDE system uses a controller that 
isn''t known to the SCO OpenServer installation tools. But for that, I 
need more extensive familiarity with Xen''s hardware emulation and 
preferably intimate experience with SCO OpenServer''s drivers.

There are some published notes on getting SCO OpenServer working with 
SCSI based virtual controllers that reveal the intricacies of driver 
management for that OS: it harkens back to the 1980''s in its style and 
complexity, and the need for secret bits of command-line knowledge. 
Using IDE controllers just avoids that whole problem for VMware, but 
I''ve not gotten so far with Xen.

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Xen-users mailing list
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The XEN HVM controller should be IDE - in fact, I don''t think SCSI
emulation in XEN HVMs is complete right now, so it almost has to be IDE.  Based
on what my Windows HVM says, it looks like the XEN HVM hardware is an
Intel-based IDE controller (Intel 82371SB PCI).  I''m not familiar at
all with SCO''s products, so I couldn''t tell you whether or not
that should be supported there, but hopefully that will help.
 
You''re right - getting SCO OpenServer to run in XEN would be a great
thing for all those people out there who need to run those legacy apps on SCO -
good luck!
 
-Nick
>>> On 2008/04/13 at 03:30, Nico Kadel-Garcia <nkadel@gmail.com>
wrote:
Nick Couchman wrote:
> Well, first, you''re going to have a lot of trouble getting anyone
to
> touch SCO these days.  With all the legal stuff they''ve pulled
over
> the past couple of years I''m sure that no one is going to be eager
to
> get in their way on purpose.
>  
> What issues are you having getting SCO to run under XEN?  
> Theoretically, with XEN HVM support, you ought to be able to run just 
> about any O/S.  XEN HVMs emulate a standard set of hardware similar to 
> VMware, so you just need to figure out what the hardware is and make 
> sure the correct drivers are loaded.  I''ve run into some issues
with
> O/Ss on XEN HVMs, but mostly they''re older O/Ss that
don''t support
> idle calls to the CPU (like DOS with Symantec Ghost).  Let us know 
> what trouble you''re having with OpenServer and maybe someone out
there
> has experience getting it to run on XEN.
>  
> If it doesn''t run on XEN at all, making it work would probably
involve
> something like writing device drivers that support the XEN hardware.  
> Also, you can bet there will be a difference between the default 
> drivers included with the O/S and optimized drivers - similar to 
> VMware''s Tools and the PV drivers for Windows under XEN.  Writing
the
> optimized ("PV") drivers is going to be the next step, and
I''m afraid
> I can''t help you there and that you''ll run into a lot of
people who
> don''t want to touch SCO - either out of fear or out of disgust.
>  
> -Nick
It''s appreciated: I''m on a contract to migrate SCO based
software to
RHEL, and there are plenty of legacy fiscal and medical systems that are 
running software which is needed for legacy data access, doesn''t have 
source code for migration, or for which the owners lack the resources to 
do the software migration. So getting it running in a clean Xen-ified 
environment would be a showpiece for open source superiority, and ease 
the migration pain by providing an open source supported virtualization 
environment. I''d be thrilled to migrate the active services to Xenified
virtual images, in order to free hardware for other uses and have 
managable OS images without the backup requirements of maintaining live 
systems or having to re-install the OS on future virtualization platforms.

The theory of everything working under HVM is good, but when I boot RHEL 
5.1 provided Xen with a scrubbed disk image, mounted as an IDE drive and 
using the installation CD, it gets to the installation scanning for 
hardware on the CD and fails to detect the drive. My suspicion, thinking 
about it, is that the virtualized IDE system uses a controller that 
isn''t known to the SCO OpenServer installation tools. But for that, I 
need more extensive familiarity with Xen''s hardware emulation and 
preferably intimate experience with SCO OpenServer''s drivers.

There are some published notes on getting SCO OpenServer working with 
SCSI based virtual controllers that reveal the intricacies of driver 
management for that OS: it harkens back to the 1980''s in its style and 
complexity, and the need for secret bits of command-line knowledge. 
Using IDE controllers just avoids that whole problem for VMware, but 
I''ve not gotten so far with Xen.


This e-mail may contain confidential and privileged material for the sole use of
the intended recipient.  If this email is not intended for you, or you are not
responsible for the delivery of this message to the intended recipient, please
note that this message may contain SEAKR Engineering (SEAKR)
Privileged/Proprietary Information.  In such a case, you are strictly prohibited
from downloading, photocopying, distributing or otherwise using this message,
its contents or attachments in any way.  If you have received this message in
error, please notify us immediately by replying to this e-mail and delete the
message from your mailbox.  Information contained in this message that does not
relate to the business of SEAKR is neither endorsed by nor attributable to
SEAKR.


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