Vorbis - Oct 2001 - Request for Standardization: classical music TAGS

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The ALBUM, ARTIST, TITLE, and TRACKNUMBER tags aren't sufficient for
classical music.  MP3 muffed it, but since Vorbis is so flexible, I'd
like to propose that ogg123 recognize and display the following
optional tags.

Oh, before I list the tags; I encourage comments and feedback, and
Monty, if I was to provide a patch to ogg123 that supported my proposal,
would you be open to including it?

Here goes:

CATEGORY=classical
        this alerts ogg123 to look out for the other tags mentioned
        here.  Otherwise it does what it normally does.

OPUS
        the number of the work; ie, Opus 10, BWV 81 (bach), K6 (mozart)

COMPOSER
        composer of the work. ie, Gustav Mahler

PERFORMERS
        individual performers singled out for mention;
        ie, Sally Straw (violinist)\nJim Buck (harmonica)

ENSEMBLE
        the group playing the peice, whether orchestra, choir,
        or quartet, ie, Berlin Philharmonic.  if there are multiple
        ensembles, they can be listed together as with the
        PERFORMERS tag

CONDUCTOR
        conductor of the work; ie Herbert von Karajan.  As with
        ENSEMBLE, if there are multiple conductors, list them same as
        with PERFORMERS tag (some oddball modern works require multiple
        conductors at the same time)

LABEL
        the record label that produced the CD

DISCID
        since the EIN, ISBN, etc numbers aren't to be reliably found
        on the CD, nor is the catalog number reliable, the cddb
        discid should go here.

ISBN
        if found, put ISBN or EIN of the compact disc here.

TRACK
        the track number on the CD

TITLE
        title of the work, ie "Pastoral"

TYPE
        type of work, ie, Symphony or Sonata or Piano Concerto

NUMBER
        if the work is one of a series, its number goes here.
        ie, Beethovens 1st Piano Concerto would be "1"

MOVEMENT
        if the work is broken into more than one part, this tells you
        which part it is. ie, "1. Allegreto andante"

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[ Sorry for sending this twice; I sent it to the vorbis-dev list by
mistake. ]

The ALBUM, ARTIST, TITLE, and TRACKNUMBER tags aren't sufficient for
classical music.  MP3 muffed it, but since Vorbis is so flexible, I'd
like to propose that ogg123 recognize and display the following
optional tags, instead of giving an error message that it doesn't
recognize the tags.

Oh, before I list the tags; I encourage comments and feedback, and
Monty, if I was to provide a patch to ogg123 that supported my proposal,
would you be open to including it?

Here goes:

CATEGORY=classical
        this alerts ogg123 to look out for the other tags mentioned
        here.  Otherwise it does what it normally does.

OPUS
        the number of the work; ie, Opus 10, BWV 81 (bach), K6 (mozart)

COMPOSER
        composer of the work. ie, Gustav Mahler

PERFORMERS
        individual performers singled out for mention;
        ie, Sally Straw (violinist)\nJim Buck (harmonica)

ENSEMBLE
        the group playing the peice, whether orchestra, choir,
        or quartet, ie, Berlin Philharmonic.  if there are multiple
        ensembles, they can be listed together as with the
        PERFORMERS tag

CONDUCTOR
        conductor of the work; ie Herbert von Karajan.  As with
        ENSEMBLE, if there are multiple conductors, list them same as
        with PERFORMERS tag (some oddball modern works require multiple
        conductors at the same time)

LABEL
        the record label that produced the CD

DISCID
        since the EIN, ISBN, etc numbers aren't to be reliably found
        on the CD, nor is the catalog number reliable, the cddb
        discid should go here.

ISBN
        if found, put ISBN or EIN of the compact disc here.

TRACK
        the track number on the CD

TITLE
        title of the work, ie "Pastoral"

TYPE
        type of work, ie, Symphony or Sonata or Piano Concerto

NUMBER
        if the work is one of a series, its number goes here.
        ie, Beethovens 1st Piano Concerto would be "1"

MOVEMENT
        if the work is broken into more than one part, this tells you
        which part it is. ie, "1. Allegreto andante"

LOCATION
        where the recording was made

DATE
        date and time the recording was made

- --
Good signature from user "Jonathan Walther
<krooger@debian.org>".
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On Wednesday 03 October 2001 07:07, Jonathan Walther
wrote:
> [ Sorry for sending this twice; I sent it to the vorbis-dev list by
> mistake. ]
>
> The ALBUM, ARTIST, TITLE, and TRACKNUMBER tags aren't sufficient for
> classical music.  MP3 muffed it, but since Vorbis is so flexible, I'd
> like to propose that ogg123 recognize and display the following
> optional tags, instead of giving an error message that it doesn't
> recognize the tags.
>
> Oh, before I list the tags; I encourage comments and feedback, and
> Monty, if I was to provide a patch to ogg123 that supported my proposal,
> would you be open to including it?
>
> Here goes:
>
> CATEGORY=classical
> 	this alerts ogg123 to look out for the other tags mentioned
> 	here.  Otherwise it does what it normally does.
You don't need this. Just detect OPUS etc, and act accordingly. If you
really
must, use GENRE=classical instead.
> OPUS
> 	the number of the work; ie, Opus 10, BWV 81 (bach), K6 (mozart)
>
> COMPOSER
> 	composer of the work. ie, Gustav Mahler
>
> PERFORMERS
> 	individual performers singled out for mention;
> 	ie, Sally Straw (violinist)\nJim Buck (harmonica)
>
> ENSEMBLE
> 	the group playing the peice, whether orchestra, choir,
> 	or quartet, ie, Berlin Philharmonic.  if there are multiple
> 	ensembles, they can be listed together as with the
> 	PERFORMERS tag
>
> CONDUCTOR
> 	conductor of the work; ie Herbert von Karajan.  As with
> 	ENSEMBLE, if there are multiple conductors, list them same as
> 	with PERFORMERS tag (some oddball modern works require multiple
> 	conductors at the same time)
Some sort of generic distinction between 'the people who performed the
work'
and 'the people who wrote the work' would be really useful all round. 

Given that any given tag can be of any length, you could just compile the 
performers information into the ARTIST tag and index the text so as to search
for the conductors, ensembles and performers you're interested in. 
> LABEL
> 	the record label that produced the CD
>
> DISCID
> 	since the EIN, ISBN, etc numbers aren't to be reliably found
> 	on the CD, nor is the catalog number reliable, the cddb
> 	discid should go here.
It's been suggested that we use (say) FREEDBID, CDINDEXID or MUSICBRAINZID
to
differentiate between the available disc id schemes.
> ISBN
> 	if found, put ISBN or EIN of the compact disc here.
>
> TRACK
> 	the track number on the CD
Use TRACKNUMBER.
> TITLE
> 	title of the work, ie "Pastoral"
>
> TYPE
> 	type of work, ie, Symphony or Sonata or Piano Concerto
Another GENRE tag for this would do the trick.

John

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On Tuesday, October 2, 2001, at 12:07 , Jonathan Walther wrote:
> The ALBUM, ARTIST, TITLE, and TRACKNUMBER tags aren't sufficient for
> classical music.  MP3 muffed it, but since Vorbis is so flexible, I'd
> like to propose that ogg123 recognize and display the following
> optional tags, instead of giving an error message that it doesn't
> recognize the tags.
We discussed this quite a bit on irc earlier as well, and reached some 
consensus, at least among the developers.

We agreed that some extra tags were needed. The main problem with 
Jonathan's suggestion is that it's modal and won't "dumb
down"
gracefully to the simpler displays of old players.

Therefore, rather than introducing COMPOSER et al. we decided to just 
refine the overloading of ARTIST to mean 'composer' or 'original
author'
in the case of classical music, while keeping the 'performer' sense for 
pop. That way a player that just does '$artist - $title' will show 
'Beethoven - Symphony No. 5' as is appropriate.

We added a new tag, PERFORMER, to handle the case when the performer 
isn't the ARTIST. The conductor, orchestra, and soloists could all go 
under (repeated) PERFORMER tags. The voice actor for an audio book would 
also go here, while the original author of the book would be the ARTIST.

In the same discussion we decided to add CONTACT for contact info (url, 
email, street address, what  have you) and to standardize on DISCID 
meaning the FREEDB index hash. I was one of the ones arguing for 
scheme-specific has tag names, but consensus seemed to be for this. I 
convinced myself by thinking of it as the 'quid' hash. :)

That left the issue of the title subdivision. I think it's reasonable to 
put everything in the title ('Sinfonia for Strings in B minor "al Santo
Sepolcro" RV 621') but it also seems reasonable to support additional 
tags since they do no harm. I'd suggest: OPUS, KEY, TEMPO, and MOVEMENT.

OPUS should probably include the catalog prefix if one is available to 
distinguish ('OPUS=67' for Beethoven's 5th, but 'OPUS=RV
608' for
Vivaldi's Nisi Dominus.)

TEMPO would be things like 'allegro', 'vivace', '140
bpm'.

If there's no further comment, I'll add these to the spec in a 'if
you
want them people are using these' section.

In summary,
  -r

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On Wednesday 03 October 2001 17:59, rillian wrote:
> Therefore, rather than introducing COMPOSER et al. we decided to just
> refine the overloading of ARTIST to mean 'composer' or
'original author'
> in the case of classical music, while keeping the 'performer' sense
for
> pop. That way a player that just does '$artist - $title' will show
> 'Beethoven - Symphony No. 5' as is appropriate.
>
> We added a new tag, PERFORMER, to handle the case when the performer
> isn't the ARTIST. The conductor, orchestra, and soloists could all go
> under (repeated) PERFORMER tags. The voice actor for an audio book would
> also go here, while the original author of the book would be the ARTIST.
Ok. So what about the orginal artist in the case of a pop music cover? 
> In the same discussion we decided to add CONTACT for contact info (url,
> email, street address, what  have you) and to standardize on DISCID
> meaning the FREEDB index hash. I was one of the ones arguing for
> scheme-specific has tag names, but consensus seemed to be for this. I
> convinced myself by thinking of it as the 'quid' hash. :)
I assume that the DISCID is going to end up being just the hash in hex, the
same as the files in the .cddb cache? I better rename the python list I'm 
using to something else. We can always use CDINDEXID and MUSICBRAINZID as 
those methods take off.

John

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