Hi, <p>here's my €0.02 on that topic. First of all, all those new tags are total overkill to be standardized. They're only useful for people who both tag OGG files for a living and listen to classical music only. Imagine what will happen when the Jazz fans, and the Techno fans, and the Rock fans and who knows else demands his very own, customized + standardized set of tags. And what about the various other tags one might need when OGG is not only the common container for Vorbis streams but also Tarkin and FLAC and MIDI and X, Y and not to forget Z. Then, what's the deal with 23947 standard-tags, while all the popular players support only the ID3 set of tags by design ... I really wonder where Winamp should display a tag like CONDUCTOR or whatever fancy classical-only stuff you want. The only point I see in those tags is to have a searchable and sortable index of an OGG Vorbis music base, controlled by some sophisticated database engine that can generate playlists, start players, whatever... but this all doesn't have anything to do with the OGG format. What you might want is write to the authors of tag editors and ask them to allow you create and save your own presets, for example. Or make it interactive! Let the tag editor come up with predefined questions and input screens! This would lead to a homogeneous tagging of your OGG collection, ready for a database I don't know whether it exists or not. In the end, it's a front-end thing and not about what's written on a xiph.org web page. OGG needs some few standard tags. Standard means, they're standard ... e.g. in players. Those are ARTIST and TITLE, for example - no matter how diffuse the word "artist" actually is in this context. The tags are optional, but theoretically you can use every single standard tag in every single OGG file - even the ISRC tag I requested. It is useful, because becoming a registrar costs nothing, and although nobody with a label code really needs it, everybody has it - and it shows who, in what country, in what year made a specific recording. (Ah, this reminds me, i wanted to ask the IFPI when they get problems with the 2digit-year...). Burning OGGs to CD-A means that the ISRC will be burnt together with the rest. No need to do it manually. (Heh, not that anybody would care, but this all is theoretical anyways.) Back to standard tags. They should be universally applicable (in theory), and [classic|rock|pop|techno|...] specific tags are not. Customize your own, that's why you can do it. I recently encoded Antonin Dvorak's 8th and 9th symphonies ... even "TITLE" sucks there, I agree. My titles are currently "Adagio", "Allegretto Grazioso - Molto Vivace", etc. That's bullshit, because that's "Symphony No. 8" all the time, but I had to distinguish them somehow. I made my choice because I want to be able to distinguish the parts in a playlist. So this is about what the player displays in the playlist ... no 293874 additional standard tags would have helped in this case. (Especially because I don't want to change the Winamp plugin's properties all the time.) All this additional information that is useful for classical music, but hardly anything else, should stay in the "my custom tags"-drawer. We could discuss this again when we have XML metadata in OGG files. Players supporting this XML metadate might have "browser windows" displaying the content in a well-formatted and customizeable way. Having some more things standardized at that point could be neat, but it'd be pointless now. IMO. <p>Moritz -- _______________________________________________________________________ "They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security" - Benjamin Franklin --- >8 ---- List archives: http://www.xiph.org/archives/ Ogg project homepage: http://www.xiph.org/ogg/ To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to 'vorbis-request@xiph.org' containing only the word 'unsubscribe' in the body. No subject is needed. Unsubscribe messages sent to the list will be ignored/filtered.
Perhaps you should read the thread (again?), and ask for clarification on issues that you think the standard did not address. As your current email stands, it shows such lack of clue, and contains so many false and outrageous statements that I'm afraid to reply to it. Jonathan On Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 02:43:04AM +0100, Moritz Grimm wrote:>First of all, all those new tags are total overkill to be standardized. >They're only useful for people who both tag OGG files for a living and >listen to classical music only. Imagine what will happen when the Jazz >fans, and the Techno fans, and the Rock fans and who knows else demands >his very own, customized + standardized set of tags. And what about the >various other tags one might need when OGG is not only the common >container for Vorbis streams but also Tarkin and FLAC and MIDI and X, Y >and not to forget Z. > >Then, what's the deal with 23947 standard-tags, while all the popular >players support only the ID3 set of tags by design ... I really wonder >where Winamp should display a tag like CONDUCTOR or whatever fancy >classical-only stuff you want. > >The only point I see in those tags is to have a searchable and sortable >index of an OGG Vorbis music base, controlled by some sophisticated >database engine that can generate playlists, start players, whatever... >but this all doesn't have anything to do with the OGG format. > >What you might want is write to the authors of tag editors and ask them >to allow you create and save your own presets, for example. Or make it >interactive! Let the tag editor come up with predefined questions and >input screens! This would lead to a homogeneous tagging of your OGG >collection, ready for a database I don't know whether it exists or not. >In the end, it's a front-end thing and not about what's written on a >xiph.org web page. > >OGG needs some few standard tags. Standard means, they're standard ... >e.g. in players. Those are ARTIST and TITLE, for example - no matter how >diffuse the word "artist" actually is in this context. The tags are >optional, but theoretically you can use every single standard tag in >every single OGG file - even the ISRC tag I requested. It is useful, >because becoming a registrar costs nothing, and although nobody with a >label code really needs it, everybody has it - and it shows who, in what >country, in what year made a specific recording. (Ah, this reminds me, i >wanted to ask the IFPI when they get problems with the 2digit-year...). >Burning OGGs to CD-A means that the ISRC will be burnt together with the >rest. No need to do it manually. (Heh, not that anybody would care, but >this all is theoretical anyways.) > >Back to standard tags. They should be universally applicable (in >theory), and [classic|rock|pop|techno|...] specific tags are not. >Customize your own, that's why you can do it. > >I recently encoded Antonin Dvorak's 8th and 9th symphonies ... even >"TITLE" sucks there, I agree. My titles are currently "Adagio", >"Allegretto Grazioso - Molto Vivace", etc. That's bullshit, because >that's "Symphony No. 8" all the time, but I had to distinguish them >somehow. I made my choice because I want to be able to distinguish the >parts in a playlist. So this is about what the player displays in the >playlist ... no 293874 additional standard tags would have helped in >this case. (Especially because I don't want to change the Winamp >plugin's properties all the time.) > >All this additional information that is useful for classical music, but >hardly anything else, should stay in the "my custom tags"-drawer. We >could discuss this again when we have XML metadata in OGG files. Players >supporting this XML metadate might have "browser windows" displaying the >content in a well-formatted and customizeable way. Having some more >things standardized at that point could be neat, but it'd be pointless >now. IMO.-------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: part Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 797 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.xiph.org/pipermail/vorbis/attachments/20011206/9dfc08ab/part-0001.pgp
On Friday, December 07, 2001 1:43 AM, Moritz Grimm [SMTP:gtgbr@gmx.net] wrote:> The only point I see in those tags is to have a searchable and sortable > index of an OGG Vorbis music base, controlled by some sophisticated > database engine that can generate playlists, start players, whatever... > but this all doesn't have anything to do with the OGG format.Such an index is exactly what I want for my music collection (I'm sure I'm not the only person who intends to rip (or already has ripped) my entire collection onto one big hard disk, for my listening convenience). Personally I'd want to be able to store a lot of that info in each individual file, rather than in an external database -- so if I burn a hundred tracks to CD, I don't have to worry about also burning metadata from another source. Or if I change players, the new software can rebuild a database easily. If that metadata is stored in a separate metadata stream, fine. As long as it's part of the ogg file itself. (BTW Moritz, I'm not sure if you're suggesting the metadata _should_ be stored externally; your comments just spurred me to speak up. No argument or implication of your meaning intended ;-)> I recently encoded Antonin Dvorak's 8th and 9th symphonies ... even > "TITLE" sucks there, I agree. My titles are currently "Adagio", > "Allegretto Grazioso - Molto Vivace", etc. That's bullshit, because > that's "Symphony No. 8" all the time, but I had to distinguish themI'm going to have a similar problem encoding the most recent "Godspeed You Black Emperor!" album; I'm not sure if all four tracks are best described by the album's title, or if there are individual track names; further, if each track should be split and named differently according to its part... hey, I think I finally understand the level of categorisation required for classical music!> somehow. I made my choice because I want to be able to distinguish the > parts in a playlist. So this is about what the player displays in the > playlist ... no 293874 additional standard tags would have helped in > this case. (Especially because I don't want to change the Winamp > plugin's properties all the time.)This is a good point -- what the player displays is important to me. But it's also important to me that more detailed (ie data stored in appropriate fields) information is also available, perhaps to allow me to set up a playlist easily (even if, when it's playing, I don't see the connection between tracks in the player). I guess the difficulty is in defining a set of tags that can simultaneously achieve these goals. I'm pretty religious about getting all that info into my files (although of course I realise that many people just want title/artist, and that's fair enough) so I'd appreciate such support "as standard". But that's the bit I maybe don't understand: just what would it mean for a set of tags to be standard? Is it something to do with player support? Encoder support? The ability to find info in file-sharing search engines? Does it just give us a warm feeling to be using compatible tags (I'm not knocking that, standards are good in many ways)? Just curious; having a standard would be a Good Thing IMO. Cheers, Steve -- Steve Tregidgo <p><p>--- >8 ---- List archives: http://www.xiph.org/archives/ Ogg project homepage: http://www.xiph.org/ogg/ To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to 'vorbis-request@xiph.org' containing only the word 'unsubscribe' in the body. No subject is needed. Unsubscribe messages sent to the list will be ignored/filtered.
>If I gave you a file foo.ogg, how exactly are you going to find out the >artist and title unless someone has put in appropriate tags?>JonathanOf course you realize your trying to deprecate the "artist" tag, so your not going to find the artist, only the "PERFORMER" or the "ENSEMBLE". On Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 08:17:00PM +0100, Moritz Grimm wrote:>DISCID > since the EIN, ISBN, etc numbers aren't to be reliably found > on the CD, nor is the catalog number reliable, the FREEDB > index hash should go here > >That's metadata and definitely NOT human readable. This should not go >into the tags.I wish you had read all the posts on the thread before posting this. I already posted that DISCID, ISRC, and similar tags are now stricken from the standard unless someone speaks up for them. Slothy suggested it; I now second it.>ARTIST > role fulfilled by COMPOSER, LYRICIST, PERFORMER, ENSEMBLE, > CONDUCTOR, AUTHOR, PRODUCER, and ARRANGER tags. > >You need this data neither in your playlist nor prior to downloading a >tune.If you had read the standard, all tags are optional. You can even release an ogg with no tags whatsoever. I'm starting to feel like a broken record here.>If you buy an OGG file, you should get this information by the >vendor ...Be realistic. Most ogg files will be shared among friends and complete strangers on the internet.>I don't say it's not useful, I say it's not needed. In my >very own case, it'd even be highly annoying. Look at this, an average >tune made by be and a friend: > >COMPOSER=salt & maxx >PERFORMER=salt & maxx >PRODUCER=salt & maxx >PUBLISHER=salt & maxx >ARRANGER=salt & maxx >ENSEMBLE=KOLABORE (salt & maxx) >TITLE=Tachyon Part #12 >ALBUM=Tachyon >GENRE=Ambient >COPYRIGHT=(C) 2001 by KOLABORE. All Rights Reserved. >URL=http://www.kolabore.com/ >ISRC=DE-R46-01-00119Which part of "all the tags are optional" don't you understand? Oh, and the URL should go in an ADDENDUM tag.>All six artist-related tags are perfectly valid, and none of them can >take another tag's meaning. But instead of these six tags, a single >ARTIST tag would perfectly do the job.In your case, a single ARTIST tag would do the job. If all we ever listened to was your little electro-midi-loop-noodling sounds, that would be sufficient for the standard to. But the standard is meant to be useful and usable for everybody.>Btw, point 2) in your mail about your goals is already fulfilled by the >ISRC tag. Every recording has a different, unique ISRC, so it should be >trivial to get the correct CD once you got that number.Use of an ISRC tag goes against point 3), which is necessary for embedded devices. No access to the Internet or external databases should be required!>I really don't want these tags to become standard. The standards should >not go beyond simple tags that are required for proper "playback", if >one may say it that way. The whole rest needs to adapt to too many >different possible scenarios to become a standard.I, and many others, disagree. No tags are required for proper playback, ergo, by your reasoning, ogg should drop tag support altogether. Unless the common ogg-playing tools support them, tags are useless. Unless tags are standardized, the ogg-playing tools won't support them.>> When someone sends you a file with a gibbled filename, how do you find >> out what the heck it is? What if you really liked it and wanted to run >> out and buy 10 copies of it on CD for your friends you liked it so much? >> The output should give you enough information that you can do that. > >I usually know the artist and the title, propably also the name of the >album. If this isn't enough, and there's an ISRC, I'm all set.If I gave you a file foo.ogg, how exactly are you going to find out the artist and title unless someone has put in appropriate tags? Jonathan <p>--- >8 ---- List archives: http://www.xiph.org/archives/ Ogg project homepage: http://www.xiph.org/ogg/ To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to 'vorbis-request@xiph.org' containing only the word 'unsubscribe' in the body. No subject is needed. Unsubscribe messages sent to the list will be ignored/filtered.