I hired a friend of a friend to build my company a fairly substantial application. He quoted it, committed to it, and now says he has run out of money. I''ve offered him additional money/incentives ...twice. He continues to commit, and then, ultimately not make his commitment. I''m not sure what my options are. Ideally, I would like to simply fire him and hire someone to finish the job. Our agreement was that the code was "mine" and I believe he would honor that ...I think ..hope. Part of the problem however, is that I seriously doubt that there is anyone local with the ability to finish this. Is it feasable to hire someone remote?? Further, how do I find someone I can trust? My business'' growth depends on the completion of this program. Any thought would be appreciated. -- Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.
maxxx232 wrote:> > Is it feasable to hire someone remote?? Further, how do I find someone > I can trust? My business'' growth depends on the completion of this > program. > > Any thought would be appreciated.Can you post contact info or email me at: jp@jeffREMOVETHISpritchard.com -- Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.
> Can you post contact info or email me at: > jp@jeffREMOVETHISpritchard.com----------------- Jeff, This address does not work... -- Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.
> Is it feasable to hire someone remote?? Further, how do I find someone > I can trust? My business'' growth depends on the completion of this > program. > > Any thought would be appreciated.email/msg me: fmcamargo@gmail.com yahoo: ferniemeyer@yahoo.com B&R Meyer -- Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.
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email at maxxx232@adelphia.net -- Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.
Email me at chrisr@saiman.co.uk. I have completed many Enterprise applications in Rails -- Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.
maxxx232 wrote:> I hired a friend of a friend to build my company a fairly substantial > application. He quoted it, committed to it, and now says he has run out > of money. > > I''ve offered him additional money/incentives ...twice. He continues to > commit, and then, ultimately not make his commitment. > > I''m not sure what my options are. > > Ideally, I would like to simply fire him and hire someone to finish the > job. Our agreement was that the code was "mine" and I believe he would > honor that ...I think ..hope. Part of the problem however, is that I > seriously doubt that there is anyone local with the ability to finish > this. > > Is it feasable to hire someone remote?? Further, how do I find someone > I can trust? My business'' growth depends on the completion of this > program. > > Any thought would be appreciated. > >I have a business associate that might be able to help you complete this project. He''s an excellent programmer hasn''t done a lot of rails but is familiar with the frame work. He is also very reasonable and will not have a problem with giving you source. Were are you? Do you have a requirements doc outline the project? A project plan outline were the development is? If you could provide some more details about the project I could get you an estimate and we could always skype or something like that. PW my email is peter@cosmicfrontier.ca
Sorry to hear about your troubles. Unfortunately, this is what can happen when you enter into a "gentleman''s agreement" with a friend of a friend. A reputable software developer or firm will ask you to sign an agreement specifically outlining what will be produced, when it will be produced, what qualifies as success, and what you are required to pay by what date. That gives both of you legal recourse in these sorts of situations. You may want to look into your legal options at this point as well, to see if you can recoup any of the capital. It is too bad that a few (?) bad apples can spoil the barrel, but those cliches comes from somewhere. If you are interested, feel free to contact me via my website, www.toplineconsulting.com. I can assist with either advice on how to proceed or actually design/development work to get your application completed. Good Luck, Nathan Leach -----Original Message----- From: rails-bounces@lists.rubyonrails.org [mailto:rails-bounces@lists.rubyonrails.org]On Behalf Of maxxx232 Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2006 6:41 PM To: rails@lists.rubyonrails.org Subject: [Rails] HELP - My Programmers are AWOL !! I hired a friend of a friend to build my company a fairly substantial application. He quoted it, committed to it, and now says he has run out of money. I''ve offered him additional money/incentives ...twice. He continues to commit, and then, ultimately not make his commitment. I''m not sure what my options are. Ideally, I would like to simply fire him and hire someone to finish the job. Our agreement was that the code was "mine" and I believe he would honor that ...I think ..hope. Part of the problem however, is that I seriously doubt that there is anyone local with the ability to finish this. Is it feasable to hire someone remote?? Further, how do I find someone I can trust? My business'' growth depends on the completion of this program. Any thought would be appreciated. -- Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/. _______________________________________________ Rails mailing list Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
It''s certainly feasible to hire someone remote. Out of all of my customers, only one is local. Much development is done this way these days. As far as finding someone you can trust, I suggest you check references and check on past projects. That should give you an idea. And ask for a reference for a project that didn''t go well - don''t just take the basic list he/she gives out. Anyway, if you are a reasonable customer with a sane budget (lots of insane budget ideas out there these days - time costs money people!), you shouldn''t have any trouble finding someone. Lots of folks doing Rails these days.> From: maxxx232 <maxxx232@adelphia.net> > Reply-To: <rails@lists.rubyonrails.org> > Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2006 01:41:10 +0200 > To: <rails@lists.rubyonrails.org> > Subject: [Rails] HELP - My Programmers are AWOL !! > > Is it feasable to hire someone remote?? Further, how do I find someone > I can trust? My business'' growth depends on the completion of this > program.
Max ...... when you say local where are you located? I am in Houston. -daya On 8/9/06, Peter Woolcock <peter@cosmicfrontier.ca> wrote:> > maxxx232 wrote: > > I hired a friend of a friend to build my company a fairly substantial > > application. He quoted it, committed to it, and now says he has run out > > of money. > > > > I''ve offered him additional money/incentives ...twice. He continues to > > commit, and then, ultimately not make his commitment. > > > > I''m not sure what my options are. > > > > Ideally, I would like to simply fire him and hire someone to finish the > > job. Our agreement was that the code was "mine" and I believe he would > > honor that ...I think ..hope. Part of the problem however, is that I > > seriously doubt that there is anyone local with the ability to finish > > this. > > > > Is it feasable to hire someone remote?? Further, how do I find someone > > I can trust? My business'' growth depends on the completion of this > > program. > > > > Any thought would be appreciated. > > > > > I have a business associate that might be able to help you complete this > project. He''s an excellent programmer hasn''t done a lot of rails but is > familiar with the frame work. He is also very reasonable and will not > have a problem with giving you source. Were are you? Do you have a > requirements doc outline the project? A project plan outline were the > development is? If you could provide some more details about the project > I could get you an estimate and we could always skype or something like > that. > > PW > my email is peter@cosmicfrontier.ca > _______________________________________________ > Rails mailing list > Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org > http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails >-------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wrath.rubyonrails.org/pipermail/rails/attachments/20060809/4394803d/attachment-0001.html
email me at daya.sharma@gmail.com just last week I have finished converting a Java/J2EE web app to RoR On 8/9/06, Peter Woolcock <peter@cosmicfrontier.ca> wrote:> > maxxx232 wrote: > > I hired a friend of a friend to build my company a fairly substantial > > application. He quoted it, committed to it, and now says he has run out > > of money. > > > > I''ve offered him additional money/incentives ...twice. He continues to > > commit, and then, ultimately not make his commitment. > > > > I''m not sure what my options are. > > > > Ideally, I would like to simply fire him and hire someone to finish the > > job. Our agreement was that the code was "mine" and I believe he would > > honor that ...I think ..hope. Part of the problem however, is that I > > seriously doubt that there is anyone local with the ability to finish > > this. > > > > Is it feasable to hire someone remote?? Further, how do I find someone > > I can trust? My business'' growth depends on the completion of this > > program. > > > > Any thought would be appreciated. > > > > > I have a business associate that might be able to help you complete this > project. He''s an excellent programmer hasn''t done a lot of rails but is > familiar with the frame work. He is also very reasonable and will not > have a problem with giving you source. Were are you? Do you have a > requirements doc outline the project? A project plan outline were the > development is? If you could provide some more details about the project > I could get you an estimate and we could always skype or something like > that. > > PW > my email is peter@cosmicfrontier.ca > _______________________________________________ > Rails mailing list > Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org > http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails >-------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wrath.rubyonrails.org/pipermail/rails/attachments/20060809/4443a3e1/attachment.html
As a small interjection, depending on which country you live in, a gentleman''s agreement -is- as legally binding as a ''proper'' contract. Canada and Scotland are two that spring to mind. So, you maybe able to recoup -some- losses if thats a worry, and your in the proper country. Obviously IANAL and its not the proper way to work ''professionally'' but.. yes. Sorry, we now return you to your regular broadcasting :) Regards Stef Nathan Leach wrote:> Sorry to hear about your troubles. Unfortunately, this is what can happen when you enter into a "gentleman''s agreement" with a friend of a friend. A reputable software developer or firm will ask you to sign an agreement specifically outlining what will be produced, when it will be produced, what qualifies as success, and what you are required to pay by what date. That gives both of you legal recourse in these sorts of situations. You may want to look into your legal options at this point as well, to see if you can recoup any of the capital. It is too bad that a few (?) bad apples can spoil the barrel, but those cliches comes from somewhere. > > If you are interested, feel free to contact me via my website, www.toplineconsulting.com. I can assist with either advice on how to proceed or actually design/development work to get your application completed. > > Good Luck, > Nathan Leach > > -----Original Message----- > From: rails-bounces@lists.rubyonrails.org > [mailto:rails-bounces@lists.rubyonrails.org]On Behalf Of maxxx232 > Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2006 6:41 PM > To: rails@lists.rubyonrails.org > Subject: [Rails] HELP - My Programmers are AWOL !! > > > I hired a friend of a friend to build my company a fairly substantial > application. He quoted it, committed to it, and now says he has run out > of money. > > I''ve offered him additional money/incentives ...twice. He continues to > commit, and then, ultimately not make his commitment. > > I''m not sure what my options are. > > Ideally, I would like to simply fire him and hire someone to finish the > job. Our agreement was that the code was "mine" and I believe he would > honor that ...I think ..hope. Part of the problem however, is that I > seriously doubt that there is anyone local with the ability to finish > this. > > Is it feasable to hire someone remote?? Further, how do I find someone > I can trust? My business'' growth depends on the completion of this > program. > > Any thought would be appreciated. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Rails mailing list > Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org > http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails >
Hi, I agree with Nathan 100% and I tend to deal with people locally so that we can meet face-to-face for status information. Also, I tend to partition projects into smaller manageable pieces and have developers work on a piece at a time. This allows me to hire several developers to work on the same project. My magic number is usually two developers because I need to perform development tasks as well plus management duties. Next, I don''t pay until I can verify that the code works per my requirements. I would only give a partial payment at the start of the project if you have successfully completed a development task for me in the past. Finally, I''m not saying that a firm is better or an individual is better but both has its advantages over the other and you should properly screen both in the hiring process. Peace, -Conrad On 8/9/06, Nathan Leach <nathan.leach@phifer.com> wrote:> > Sorry to hear about your troubles. Unfortunately, this is what can happen > when you enter into a "gentleman''s agreement" with a friend of a friend. A > reputable software developer or firm will ask you to sign an agreement > specifically outlining what will be produced, when it will be produced, what > qualifies as success, and what you are required to pay by what date. That > gives both of you legal recourse in these sorts of situations. You may want > to look into your legal options at this point as well, to see if you can > recoup any of the capital. It is too bad that a few (?) bad apples can > spoil the barrel, but those cliches comes from somewhere. > > If you are interested, feel free to contact me via my website, > www.toplineconsulting.com. I can assist with either advice on how to > proceed or actually design/development work to get your application > completed. > > Good Luck, > Nathan Leach > > -----Original Message----- > From: rails-bounces@lists.rubyonrails.org > [mailto:rails-bounces@lists.rubyonrails.org]On Behalf Of maxxx232 > Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2006 6:41 PM > To: rails@lists.rubyonrails.org > Subject: [Rails] HELP - My Programmers are AWOL !! > > > I hired a friend of a friend to build my company a fairly substantial > application. He quoted it, committed to it, and now says he has run out > of money. > > I''ve offered him additional money/incentives ...twice. He continues to > commit, and then, ultimately not make his commitment. > > I''m not sure what my options are. > > Ideally, I would like to simply fire him and hire someone to finish the > job. Our agreement was that the code was "mine" and I believe he would > honor that ...I think ..hope. Part of the problem however, is that I > seriously doubt that there is anyone local with the ability to finish > this. > > Is it feasable to hire someone remote?? Further, how do I find someone > I can trust? My business'' growth depends on the completion of this > program. > > Any thought would be appreciated. > > -- > Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/. > _______________________________________________ > Rails mailing list > Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org > http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails > > _______________________________________________ > Rails mailing list > Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org > http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails > > >-------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wrath.rubyonrails.org/pipermail/rails/attachments/20060809/af2cdf5b/attachment-0001.html
That''s not his address. When he says "REMOVETHIS" he really means it. It''s just in case spiders pick up the list anywhere, he doesn''t want them to have his e-mail address. On 8/8/06, maxxx232 <maxxx232@adelphia.net> wrote:> > > Can you post contact info or email me at: > > jp@jeffREMOVETHISpritchard.com > > ----------------- > > Jeff, This address does not work... > > -- > Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/. > _______________________________________________ > Rails mailing list > Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org > http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails >-- Matt -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wrath.rubyonrails.org/pipermail/rails/attachments/20060809/c24808d5/attachment.html
BRILLIANT!! -- Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.
Thanks for all the replies. I will try to explain.. further. Let me start by saying - I had a long and productive meeting today with my programmer and we are still moving forward. The difficulty is that he lost his two partners ($$) and after almost 11 months on the job cannot commit to a completion date. Frankly, he is scared to because he has done so and been wrong multiple times already. When he started the job, I suspected he underbid it - but figured we''d cross that bridge when we got to it. In June I offered a bonus (50% of the origonal contract) in exchange for a managed schedule. They committed ...and missed/decided 4 weeks into it that it was impossible. Today he reaffirmed his committment to finish the project (by himself) however, he insists that my requirements make it impossible for him to manage his time. I''ll explain more later. 4-5 years ago I built an Access application to manage my Employment Agency systems. My programming experience ended with Pascal back in college - so it isn''t pretty, however it is still very robust and it does ALOT! We record and catalogue every conversation. Whether its with a client company, an employee or a vendor. We do searches and matches of course. We have (internal) job postings that we are constantly trying to fill. We track payroll - including "certified" and child support withholdings. We manage unemployment and workers compensation costs. We schedule meetings. We track time in-house. On the down-side: we duplicate alot of stuff for Quickbooks. We are not on the web. We have alot of "work-arounds". We don''t have efficient methods of rating and calaloging our applicants. Consequently alot of stuff falls through the cracks. There are a few other cool things that we want that I won''t discuss here. When we first started the project we spent 10 or more weeks trying to write the spec and writing very minimal code. That turned out to be a good thing, because shortly after that they discovered Ruby. They got all excited about the new possibilities and began building some really (i mean really) cool stuff! Our first deadline came and went and it became more obvious that schedueling a completion date would be difficult. I started to ride them a little harder. Looking for something tangeable. They wern''t asking for money - instead they were doing other jobs. So I forced them to take money, thinking it would make them more committed to my deadlines. All it seemed to to was add pressure that their creative genius'' couldn''t function under. They began to patronized me by showing me "stuff" - which made me not trust them. When I didnt trust them I began to try to micro-manage them. By micro-manageing them, they began to resent me. A really viscious circle apparently. So here''s what I think. I''m intimatley involved with the process. I want a program that perfectly mimics what our job is - how the company works. I want a virtual babysitter. I contend that I know exactly what the process is (we are doing most of it now) and I just want them to build the program that mimics it. The complaint is that they will code for 40 hours then when I sit with them they say that "I change my mind". However, I believe that its really just a communication issue. They hear me talk then translate it in their mind to how a computer could do it. I finally was able to prove this concept a few weeks ago, one of them was keeping the usual minutes while i looked at the program on a seperate monitor. We agreed on something, and he typed the decision. Then it hit me!! I asked to see his notes and as suspected they DID NOT SAY what I had just meant! They want to build a "box". They want me to tell them what goes into the box and the result that I want out of it - period. I want something more. I think that the Ray Kroc''s (inventor of the McDonalds franchise) of the 21st century companies will build applications/systems that will be more than just another tool that they use. The application will BE the business. Of course we see that already - but not so much in "people" business''. A computer can take all of the human steps out of the process. Monster.com is the opposite to our "people oriented" business model. Sorry. I''m on a rant. But my point is that they blame me for constantly distracting them from their "box" model. Ironically enough they always seem to have fun - that is until it comes to deadlines. My Questions: Am I unreasonable? Do I need to accept that this project may not honestly be completed for another 6 months? (If your still with me - thanks for listening) -- Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.
which part is BRILLIANT?? the fact that you are getting so many responses or ? On 8/9/06, maxxx232 <maxxx232@adelphia.net> wrote:> > BRILLIANT!! > > > -- > Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/. > _______________________________________________ > Rails mailing list > Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org > http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails >-------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wrath.rubyonrails.org/pipermail/rails/attachments/20060810/0831a0ce/attachment.html
I think you will have to pay a lot of money! Based on your perception of the faulty email address from above where it said "REMOVETHIS" then it may be that you want more than a box, but aren''t able to visualize or understand the possibilities that most good programmers try to give that think "outside of that box." To reaffirm this position, your own email above gives several hints that you know what you want and may be closed-minded to new ideas. This can definitely rub creative people the wrong way! Further, micro-managing will ruin the best of resources in absolutely no time. I wish you the best in your project. You can find a very cheap resource to do what you need if you define exactly what you want and don''t want any of their own thought process in it. To do this, dig out the extremely detailed design doc and let them have at it. If you want something more then you may find that paying a higher rate will achieve your desired results - as long as you can keep an open mind to the input that a senior architect/developer may present to you when you give them high-level requirements of the system. Regards, Michael -- Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.
On Thu, 2006-08-10 at 01:51 +0200, maxxx232 wrote:> Thanks for all the replies. I will try to explain.. further. > > Let me start by saying - I had a long and productive meeting today with > my programmer and we are still moving forward. The difficulty is that > he lost his two partners ($$) and after almost 11 months on the job > cannot commit to a completion date. Frankly, he is scared to because he > has done so and been wrong multiple times already. > > When he started the job, I suspected he underbid it - but figured we''d > cross that bridge when we got to it. In June I offered a bonus (50% of > the origonal contract) in exchange for a managed schedule. They > committed ...and missed/decided 4 weeks into it that it was impossible. > > Today he reaffirmed his committment to finish the project (by himself) > however, he insists that my requirements make it impossible for him to > manage his time. I''ll explain more later. > > 4-5 years ago I built an Access application to manage my Employment > Agency systems. My programming experience ended with Pascal back in > college - so it isn''t pretty, however it is still very robust and it > does ALOT! > > We record and catalogue every conversation. Whether its with a client > company, an employee or a vendor. We do searches and matches of course. > We have (internal) job postings that we are constantly trying to fill. > We track payroll - including "certified" and child support withholdings. > We manage unemployment and workers compensation costs. We schedule > meetings. We track time in-house. > > On the down-side: we duplicate alot of stuff for Quickbooks. We are not > on the web. We have alot of "work-arounds". We don''t have efficient > methods of rating and calaloging our applicants. Consequently alot of > stuff falls through the cracks. There are a few other cool things that > we want that I won''t discuss here. > > When we first started the project we spent 10 or more weeks trying to > write the spec and writing very minimal code. That turned out to be a > good thing, because shortly after that they discovered Ruby. They got > all excited about the new possibilities and began building some really > (i mean really) cool stuff! > > Our first deadline came and went and it became more obvious that > schedueling a completion date would be difficult. I started to ride > them a little harder. Looking for something tangeable. They wern''t > asking for money - instead they were doing other jobs. So I forced them > to take money, thinking it would make them more committed to my > deadlines. All it seemed to to was add pressure that their creative > genius'' couldn''t function under. They began to patronized me by showing > me "stuff" - which made me not trust them. When I didnt trust them I > began to try to micro-manage them. By micro-manageing them, they began > to resent me. A really viscious circle apparently. > > So here''s what I think. I''m intimatley involved with the process. I > want a program that perfectly mimics what our job is - how the company > works. I want a virtual babysitter. I contend that I know exactly what > the process is (we are doing most of it now) and I just want them to > build the program that mimics it. > > The complaint is that they will code for 40 hours then when I sit with > them they say that "I change my mind". However, I believe that its > really just a communication issue. They hear me talk then translate it > in their mind to how a computer could do it. > > I finally was able to prove this concept a few weeks ago, one of them > was keeping the usual minutes while i looked at the program on a > seperate monitor. We agreed on something, and he typed the decision. > Then it hit me!! I asked to see his notes and as suspected they DID NOT > SAY what I had just meant! > > They want to build a "box". They want me to tell them what goes into > the box and the result that I want out of it - period. > > I want something more. I think that the Ray Kroc''s (inventor of the > McDonalds franchise) of the 21st century companies will build > applications/systems that will be more than just another tool that they > use. The application will BE the business. Of course we see that > already - but not so much in "people" business''. A computer can take > all of the human steps out of the process. Monster.com is the opposite > to our "people oriented" business model. > > Sorry. I''m on a rant. But my point is that they blame me for > constantly distracting them from their "box" model. Ironically enough > they always seem to have fun - that is until it comes to deadlines. > > My Questions: Am I unreasonable? Do I need to accept that this project > may not honestly be completed for another 6 months? > > (If your still with me - thanks for listening)---- I am going to stick to one topic in all your rambling...are you unreasonable? Yes, your expectations were unreasonable. You expected your friend to have to dedication to learn a new language, methodology and deliver a project on time - at any time. That is hard to do if you completely understand the language and methodologies that you are using. That isn''t possible when you don''t understand the language and the methodologies. I can tell you that I had to go back on previously written code because I wrote it not really knowing what I was doing or why it was working and spent many hours cleaning it up. Could someone on this list who has developed web applications with Ruby on Rails already do it in a fraction of the time, meet completion schedules and do it much better? Yes Now, if you really were a people oriented business, you would offer ''your friend'' the opportunity to create his own timetable, and leave him alone to meet that timetable. If his timetable was not acceptable, fire him, cut your losses and move on. Craig
My company writes software for employment (recruitment) agencies and payroll processing agencies in the UK. I know that there is an abundance of off the shelf products in this market, and if none of them do the job for you then some of them will customize ad-hoc, which is far cheaper and quicker than getting a pre-written system. None of the requirements mentioned here seem that "out there" as far as features go to not be included in an existing system. Craig White wrote:> On Thu, 2006-08-10 at 01:51 +0200, maxxx232 wrote: > >> Thanks for all the replies. I will try to explain.. further. >> >> Let me start by saying - I had a long and productive meeting today with >> my programmer and we are still moving forward. The difficulty is that >> he lost his two partners ($$) and after almost 11 months on the job >> cannot commit to a completion date. Frankly, he is scared to because he >> has done so and been wrong multiple times already. >> >> When he started the job, I suspected he underbid it - but figured we''d >> cross that bridge when we got to it. In June I offered a bonus (50% of >> the origonal contract) in exchange for a managed schedule. They >> committed ...and missed/decided 4 weeks into it that it was impossible. >> >> Today he reaffirmed his committment to finish the project (by himself) >> however, he insists that my requirements make it impossible for him to >> manage his time. I''ll explain more later. >> >> 4-5 years ago I built an Access application to manage my Employment >> Agency systems. My programming experience ended with Pascal back in >> college - so it isn''t pretty, however it is still very robust and it >> does ALOT! >> >> We record and catalogue every conversation. Whether its with a client >> company, an employee or a vendor. We do searches and matches of course. >> We have (internal) job postings that we are constantly trying to fill. >> We track payroll - including "certified" and child support withholdings. >> We manage unemployment and workers compensation costs. We schedule >> meetings. We track time in-house. >> >> On the down-side: we duplicate alot of stuff for Quickbooks. We are not >> on the web. We have alot of "work-arounds". We don''t have efficient >> methods of rating and calaloging our applicants. Consequently alot of >> stuff falls through the cracks. There are a few other cool things that >> we want that I won''t discuss here. >> >> When we first started the project we spent 10 or more weeks trying to >> write the spec and writing very minimal code. That turned out to be a >> good thing, because shortly after that they discovered Ruby. They got >> all excited about the new possibilities and began building some really >> (i mean really) cool stuff! >> >> Our first deadline came and went and it became more obvious that >> schedueling a completion date would be difficult. I started to ride >> them a little harder. Looking for something tangeable. They wern''t >> asking for money - instead they were doing other jobs. So I forced them >> to take money, thinking it would make them more committed to my >> deadlines. All it seemed to to was add pressure that their creative >> genius'' couldn''t function under. They began to patronized me by showing >> me "stuff" - which made me not trust them. When I didnt trust them I >> began to try to micro-manage them. By micro-manageing them, they began >> to resent me. A really viscious circle apparently. >> >> So here''s what I think. I''m intimatley involved with the process. I >> want a program that perfectly mimics what our job is - how the company >> works. I want a virtual babysitter. I contend that I know exactly what >> the process is (we are doing most of it now) and I just want them to >> build the program that mimics it. >> >> The complaint is that they will code for 40 hours then when I sit with >> them they say that "I change my mind". However, I believe that its >> really just a communication issue. They hear me talk then translate it >> in their mind to how a computer could do it. >> >> I finally was able to prove this concept a few weeks ago, one of them >> was keeping the usual minutes while i looked at the program on a >> seperate monitor. We agreed on something, and he typed the decision. >> Then it hit me!! I asked to see his notes and as suspected they DID NOT >> SAY what I had just meant! >> >> They want to build a "box". They want me to tell them what goes into >> the box and the result that I want out of it - period. >> >> I want something more. I think that the Ray Kroc''s (inventor of the >> McDonalds franchise) of the 21st century companies will build >> applications/systems that will be more than just another tool that they >> use. The application will BE the business. Of course we see that >> already - but not so much in "people" business''. A computer can take >> all of the human steps out of the process. Monster.com is the opposite >> to our "people oriented" business model. >> >> Sorry. I''m on a rant. But my point is that they blame me for >> constantly distracting them from their "box" model. Ironically enough >> they always seem to have fun - that is until it comes to deadlines. >> >> My Questions: Am I unreasonable? Do I need to accept that this project >> may not honestly be completed for another 6 months? >> >> (If your still with me - thanks for listening) >> > ---- > I am going to stick to one topic in all your rambling...are you > unreasonable? > > Yes, your expectations were unreasonable. You expected your friend to > have to dedication to learn a new language, methodology and deliver a > project on time - at any time. > > That is hard to do if you completely understand the language and > methodologies that you are using. That isn''t possible when you don''t > understand the language and the methodologies. > > I can tell you that I had to go back on previously written code because > I wrote it not really knowing what I was doing or why it was working and > spent many hours cleaning it up. > > Could someone on this list who has developed web applications with Ruby > on Rails already do it in a fraction of the time, meet completion > schedules and do it much better? Yes > > Now, if you really were a people oriented business, you would offer > ''your friend'' the opportunity to create his own timetable, and leave him > alone to meet that timetable. If his timetable was not acceptable, fire > him, cut your losses and move on. > > Craig > > _______________________________________________ > Rails mailing list > Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org > http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails >-- *Jeremy Wells* Serval Systems Ltd. www.servalsystems.co.uk <http://www.servalsystems.co.uk> Tel: 01342 331940 Fax: 01342 331950 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wrath.rubyonrails.org/pipermail/rails/attachments/20060810/78ebfb4b/attachment-0001.html
> The complaint is that they will code for 40 hours then > when I sit with them they say that "I change my mind". > However, I believe that its really just a communication > issue. They hear me talk then translate it in their mind > to how a computer could do it. > > I finally was able to prove this concept a few weeks ago, > one of them was keeping the usual minutes while i looked > at the program on a seperate monitor. We agreed on something, > and he typed the decision. Then it hit me!! I asked to see > his notes and as suspected they DID NOT SAY what I had just > meant!It very much sounds to me that you should be working with a team doing Extreme Programming. One of the key tenets of Extreme Programming (XP) is an onsite customer, sitting with the team, offering quick instant feedback, and working with the team to specify tests for the work being carried out. XP also works in 2-week iterations where a small chunk of work is estimated by the dev team, 2-weeks-worth is selected by the customer team, and the functionality is delivered, fully tested, at the end of that iteration. It may even, if appropriate for the business, be possible to put that chunk of work into production...every 2 weeks. Start here: http://www.extremeprogramming.org/rules/customer.html and I''d try googling it and perhaps mentioning it when you start to interview others for the job. Will their development process allow you to be intimately involved with design and development of the program ? Alan -- Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.
maxxx232 wrote:> My Questions: Am I unreasonable? Do I need to accept that this project > may not honestly be completed for another 6 months? > > (If your still with me - thanks for listening)Generally the biggest problem with communication is trust. Do your programmers trust you enough to tell you that you are insane or unreasonable (if they think you are)? Do they trust you enough to tell you that they can''t figure something out, or failed in some way due to pressure or weakness? It sounds to me like they don''t, because they have avoided communications in the past. You also give evidence of using manipulation tactics to try and get them to do what you want (e.g. "I forced them to take money"). Manipulation is what we often fall into by default but it destroys trust. Motivation is the way you should go instead. Most people don''t take the time to motivate because it involves understanding the person you are trying to motivate - what drives them, and how they communicate. It also involves building a relationship and allowing someone to plot their own course to the desired goal. That in turn means that you have to be able to communicate clearly what the desired goal is, which might mean more time and effort. It sounds like you haven''t taken the time to clearly define the goal, so it keeps shifting around in your mind and everyone''s perception is that you keep changing your mind because you keep saying it different ways. You might want to consider hiring someone who can lead YOU and help you to clearly define your vision, have clear expectations and communicate in a way that your computer guys will get it. A good consultant could come in and turn the whole thing around in short order provided you are teachable. -- Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.
On Wednesday 09 August 2006 00:41, maxxx232 wrote:> I hired a friend of a friend to build my company a fairly substantial > application. He quoted it, committed to it, and now says he has run out > of money. > > I''ve offered him additional money/incentives ...twice. He continues to > commit, and then, ultimately not make his commitment. > > I''m not sure what my options are. > > Ideally, I would like to simply fire him and hire someone to finish the > job. Our agreement was that the code was "mine" and I believe he would > honor that ...I think ..hope. Part of the problem however, is that I > seriously doubt that there is anyone local with the ability to finish > this. > > Is it feasable to hire someone remote?? Further, how do I find someone > I can trust? My business'' growth depends on the completion of this > program. > > Any thought would be appreciated.Hello there. One option you could take up, if you are struggling, is RentACoder (http://www.rentacoder.com). They at least give you some protection from the "fly by night" programmer, by holding your money on escrew until you are happy with the results. I personally would normally be able to help, but currently am a bit overcommitted on other projects. If you are having difficulty getting anyone else, contact me through my website http://www.scotdb.com, and I''ll see what I can do. Phil Nelson
Alan Francis wrote:> > It very much sounds to me that you should be working with a team doing > Extreme Programming. One of the key tenets of Extreme Programming (XP) > is an onsite customer, sitting with the team, offering quick instant > feedback, and working with the team to specify tests for the work being > carried out. > > XP also works in 2-week iterations where a small chunk of work is > estimated by the dev team, 2-weeks-worth is selected by the customer > team, and the functionality is delivered, fully tested, at the end of > that iteration. It may even, if appropriate for the business, be > possible to put that chunk of work into production...every 2 weeks. > > Start here: http://www.extremeprogramming.org/rules/customer.html and > I''d try googling it and perhaps mentioning it when you start to > interview others for the job. Will their development process allow you > to be intimately involved with design and development of the program ? > > AlanThank you! Some of the comments in this forum have been very helpful - none, quite as much as reading the rules of Extreme Programming! Perhaps even more helpful is the discussion in Wikipedia relating to XP. I thought (the following) was interesting: [ The software development process is profoundly screwed up. According to the Standish Group, which conducts an annual industry-wide survey, 15 percent of all information technology projects get canceled outright, costing the sector $38 billion each year, and companies spend $17 billion annually on cost overruns. Those products that are finally released contain just 52 percent of the features customers asked for. Throughout the industry, projects are chronically late - only 18 percent hit deadline - and consistently, maddeningly flawed. Estimates of the number of bugs contained in shipped products run from one defect in every 1,000 lines of code to one in every 100. According to Watts Humphrey in his book A Discipline for Software Engineering, IBM at one time spent $250 million repairing and reinstalling fixes to 13,000 customer-reported flaws. That comes to a stunning $19,000 per defect. Traditional efforts to improve matters have gone nowhere. http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/11.09/xmen.html ] As one person responded (in this forum), I did get a good response to my post. However I cannot help noticing that there appears to be very little "personal accountability" among many coders. Business(guys like me), hire(pay) guys like you. And my prediction, is that the coders that refuse to learn how to work hand in hand with the business that hire them - will be left behind to rot in their cubicles. My question, if your still with me, is who is doing XP in Buffalo, NY? John (Maxxx232) -- Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/. --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Talk" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-talk -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
Jeff Pritchard
2006-Aug-23 14:13 UTC
[Rails] Re: Extreme Programming - Who knew????!!!!!!!
john (maxxx232) wrote:> Alan Francis wrote: >> >> It very much sounds to me that you should be working with a team doing >> Extreme Programming. One of the key tenets of Extreme Programming (XP) >> is an onsite customer, sitting with the team, offering quick instant >> feedback, and working with the team to specify tests for the work being >> carried out. >> >> XP also works in 2-week iterations where a small chunk of work is >> estimated by the dev team, 2-weeks-worth is selected by the customer >> team, and the functionality is delivered, fully tested, at the end of >> that iteration. It may even, if appropriate for the business, be >> possible to put that chunk of work into production...every 2 weeks. >> >> Start here: http://www.extremeprogramming.org/rules/customer.html and >> I''d try googling it and perhaps mentioning it when you start to >> interview others for the job. Will their development process allow you >> to be intimately involved with design and development of the program ? >> >> Alan > > Thank you! Some of the comments in this forum have been very helpful - > none, quite as much as reading the rules of Extreme Programming! > Perhaps even more helpful is the discussion in Wikipedia relating to XP. > > I thought (the following) was interesting: > > [ The software development process is profoundly screwed up. > According to the Standish Group, which conducts an annual industry-wide > survey, 15 percent of all information technology projects get canceled > outright, costing the sector $38 billion each year, and companies spend > $17 billion annually on cost overruns. Those products that are finally > released contain just 52 percent of the features customers asked for. > Throughout the industry, projects are chronically late - only 18 percent > hit deadline - and consistently, maddeningly flawed. Estimates of the > number of bugs contained in shipped products run from one defect in > every 1,000 lines of code to one in every 100. According to Watts > Humphrey in his book A Discipline for Software Engineering, IBM at one > time spent $250 million repairing and reinstalling fixes to 13,000 > customer-reported flaws. That comes to a stunning $19,000 per defect. > Traditional efforts to improve matters have gone nowhere. > http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/11.09/xmen.html ] > > As one person responded (in this forum), I did get a good response to my > post. However I cannot help noticing that there appears to be very > little "personal accountability" among many coders. Business(guys like > me), hire(pay) guys like you. And my prediction, is that the coders > that refuse to learn how to work hand in hand with the business that > hire them - will be left behind to rot in their cubicles. > > My question, if your still with me, is who is doing XP in Buffalo, NY? > > John (Maxxx232)John, You have a whole planet full of programmers at your disposal. Most of us are not much to look at. Why would you want to limit your search to just those very few who are willing to suffer the winters in Buffalo NY? :) jp -- Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/. --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Talk" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-talk -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
I would wager that he would want a programmer ''on site'' to work with clients and other members of the team. XP works best among small teams in the same location. Some of the best programming I''ve done has been with two programmers at one keyboard... one drives and the other supports. On 8/23/06, Jeff Pritchard <rails-mailing-list-ARtvInVfO7ksV2N9l4h3zg@public.gmane.org> wrote:> > > john (maxxx232) wrote: > > Alan Francis wrote: > >> > >> It very much sounds to me that you should be working with a team doing > >> Extreme Programming. One of the key tenets of Extreme Programming (XP) > >> is an onsite customer, sitting with the team, offering quick instant > >> feedback, and working with the team to specify tests for the work being > >> carried out. > >> > >> XP also works in 2-week iterations where a small chunk of work is > >> estimated by the dev team, 2-weeks-worth is selected by the customer > >> team, and the functionality is delivered, fully tested, at the end of > >> that iteration. It may even, if appropriate for the business, be > >> possible to put that chunk of work into production...every 2 weeks. > >> > >> Start here: http://www.extremeprogramming.org/rules/customer.html and > >> I''d try googling it and perhaps mentioning it when you start to > >> interview others for the job. Will their development process allow you > >> to be intimately involved with design and development of the program ? > >> > >> Alan > > > > Thank you! Some of the comments in this forum have been very helpful - > > none, quite as much as reading the rules of Extreme Programming! > > Perhaps even more helpful is the discussion in Wikipedia relating to XP. > > > > I thought (the following) was interesting: > > > > [ The software development process is profoundly screwed up. > > According to the Standish Group, which conducts an annual industry-wide > > survey, 15 percent of all information technology projects get canceled > > outright, costing the sector $38 billion each year, and companies spend > > $17 billion annually on cost overruns. Those products that are finally > > released contain just 52 percent of the features customers asked for. > > Throughout the industry, projects are chronically late - only 18 percent > > hit deadline - and consistently, maddeningly flawed. Estimates of the > > number of bugs contained in shipped products run from one defect in > > every 1,000 lines of code to one in every 100. According to Watts > > Humphrey in his book A Discipline for Software Engineering, IBM at one > > time spent $250 million repairing and reinstalling fixes to 13,000 > > customer-reported flaws. That comes to a stunning $19,000 per defect. > > Traditional efforts to improve matters have gone nowhere. > > http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/11.09/xmen.html ] > > > > As one person responded (in this forum), I did get a good response to my > > post. However I cannot help noticing that there appears to be very > > little "personal accountability" among many coders. Business(guys like > > me), hire(pay) guys like you. And my prediction, is that the coders > > that refuse to learn how to work hand in hand with the business that > > hire them - will be left behind to rot in their cubicles. > > > > My question, if your still with me, is who is doing XP in Buffalo, NY? > > > > John (Maxxx232) > > John, > You have a whole planet full of programmers at your disposal. Most of > us are not much to look at. Why would you want to limit your search to > just those very few who are willing to suffer the winters in Buffalo NY? > :) > > jp > > > -- > Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/. > > > >--~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Talk" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-talk -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
On Wed, Aug 23, 2006 at 04:13:19PM +0200, Jeff Pritchard wrote: [...]> > My question, if your still with me, is who is doing XP in Buffalo, NY? > > > > John (Maxxx232) > > John, > You have a whole planet full of programmers at your disposal. Most of > us are not much to look at. Why would you want to limit your search to > just those very few who are willing to suffer the winters in Buffalo NY? > :)Because you can''t do "proper" XP unless you''re sitting in the same room together. It can be faked via IM/video conferencing and maybe some remote screen sharing for pair programming, but it''s generally considered not as effective. -- - Adam ** Expert Technical Project and Business Management **** System Performance Analysis and Architecture ****** [ http://www.adamfields.com ] [ http://www.aquick.org/blog ] ............ Blog [ http://www.adamfields.com/resume.html ].. Experience [ http://www.flickr.com/photos/fields ] ... Photos [ http://www.aquicki.com/wiki ].............Wiki --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Talk" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-talk -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
maxxx232 wrote:> Thanks for all the replies. I will try to explain.. further.> So here''s what I think. I''m intimatley involved with the process. I > want a program that perfectly mimics what our job is - how the company > works. I want a virtual babysitter. I contend that I know exactly what > the process is (we are doing most of it now) and I just want them to > build the program that mimics it. > > > > My Questions: Am I unreasonable? Do I need to accept that this project > may not honestly be completed for another 6 months? >2 words: product manager.. the lady that stands between the micro-managing officers and the enlisted. ilan -- Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/. --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Talk" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-talk -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
One technique that I have used with good success is to conduct periodical "Show-and-tell" sessions. Held at least every two weeks, they involve getting all interested business stakeholders and programmers in a room, with each programmer getting up in turn and demonstrating all the stuff they have been working on in the last iteration. It is important to enforce one rule: the stakeholders are allowed to ask clarification questions of the programmer, but not to discuss the functionality either amongst themselves or with the programmers - if they believe there is an issue with the functionality, they flag this and move on. This prevents drawn-out arguments over business functionality during the session. A facilitator (possibly a project manager) needs to be present to enforce the rule and note down all possible problems, to follow up later with a smaller audience. Max On 8/24/06, Adam Fields <rails23049809-CU8A4pfP4hodnm+yROfE0A@public.gmane.org> wrote:> > On Wed, Aug 23, 2006 at 04:13:19PM +0200, Jeff Pritchard wrote: > [...] > > > My question, if your still with me, is who is doing XP in Buffalo, NY? > > > > > > John (Maxxx232) > > > > John, > > You have a whole planet full of programmers at your disposal. Most of > > us are not much to look at. Why would you want to limit your search to > > just those very few who are willing to suffer the winters in Buffalo NY? > > :) > > Because you can''t do "proper" XP unless you''re sitting in the same > room together. > > It can be faked via IM/video conferencing and maybe some remote screen > sharing for pair programming, but it''s generally considered not as > effective. > > -- > - Adam > > ** Expert Technical Project and Business Management > **** System Performance Analysis and Architecture > ****** [ http://www.adamfields.com ] > > [ http://www.aquick.org/blog ] ............ Blog > [ http://www.adamfields.com/resume.html ].. Experience > [ http://www.flickr.com/photos/fields ] ... Photos > [ http://www.aquicki.com/wiki ].............Wiki > > > >--~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Talk" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-talk -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---