Rails - Mar 2006 - Agile Web Development with Rails 1.1

Dave, on another topic, might I recommend that you and DHH publish an
updated version of the Agile guide right away when 1.1 comes out?  You could
reuse much of your material and it would do a lot of good to help make sure
there is still a good centralized source of reference for Rails.  Without
that book, there really is not a good one-stop source of information for
people to learn how to use Rails.  It also seems like many of the features
in 1.1 are only very sparsely documented, so it would be very invaluable to
people.  Even though I bought the first edition in beta PDF and print, I
would still shell out more for an update.

Thanks for listening.

Carl

On 3/2/06, Dave Thomas <dave@pragprog.com> wrote:
>
> We view it very much as a win-win situation. Yes, we get money
> earlier than we otherwise would. But at the same time, a community
> that is easger to get this information gets it many, many months
> before the regular publishing cycle would. Yes, the readers help find
> bugs in the books. But, atthe same time, the readers also get to
> steer the book, telling the author what they want to see as the book
> evolves. AWDwR was greatly influenced by early feedback, and I think
> its a better book (and the vommunity has a better resource) because
> of it.
>
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On Fri, Mar 03, 2006 at 11:36:57AM -0800, Carl Youngblood
wrote:
> Dave, on another topic, might I recommend that you and DHH publish an
> updated version of the Agile guide right away when 1.1 comes out?  You
could
> reuse much of your material and it would do a lot of good to help make sure
> there is still a good centralized source of reference for Rails.  Without
> that book, there really is not a good one-stop source of information for
> people to learn how to use Rails.  It also seems like many of the features
> in 1.1 are only very sparsely documented, so it would be very invaluable to
> people.  Even though I bought the first edition in beta PDF and print, I
> would still shell out more for an update.
Seconded.

-- 
				- Adam

** Expert Technical Project and Business Management
**** System Performance Analysis and Architecture
****** [ http://www.everylastounce.com ]

[ http://www.aquick.org/blog ] ............ Blog
[ http://www.adamfields.com/resume.html ].. Experience
[ http://www.flickr.com/photos/fields ] ... Photos
[ http://www.aquicki.com/wiki ].............Wiki
[ http://del.icio.us/fields ] ............. Links

Thirded! That would be invaluable and i''d gladly pay full price again  
for a good update. Even if you could just put out a mini book  
covering all the changes/new features since the book (1.1, of course,  
but it seems there''s even stuff in 1.0 that wasn''t there when
the
book was finalized). Is this something we can look forward to?

sebastian

On Mar 3, 2006, at 1:41 PM, Adam Fields wrote:
> On Fri, Mar 03, 2006 at 11:36:57AM -0800, Carl Youngblood wrote:
>> Dave, on another topic, might I recommend that you and DHH publish an
>> updated version of the Agile guide right away when 1.1 comes out?   
>> You could
>> reuse much of your material and it would do a lot of good to help  
>> make sure
>> there is still a good centralized source of reference for Rails.   
>> Without
>> that book, there really is not a good one-stop source of  
>> information for
>> people to learn how to use Rails.  It also seems like many of the  
>> features
>> in 1.1 are only very sparsely documented, so it would be very  
>> invaluable to
>> people.  Even though I bought the first edition in beta PDF and  
>> print, I
>> would still shell out more for an update.
>
> Seconded.
>
> -- 
> 				- Adam
>
> ** Expert Technical Project and Business Management
> **** System Performance Analysis and Architecture
> ****** [ http://www.everylastounce.com ]
>
> [ http://www.aquick.org/blog ] ............ Blog
> [ http://www.adamfields.com/resume.html ].. Experience
> [ http://www.flickr.com/photos/fields ] ... Photos
> [ http://www.aquicki.com/wiki ].............Wiki
> [ http://del.icio.us/fields ] ............. Links
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Rails mailing list
> Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org
> http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
>

Just because I feel like being Mr. Devil''s Advocate, how about a book
on how Rails was written, instead? I for one would plunk down some
cash for that a lot sooner than I would for a version-upgrade to
existing documentation. I''m all for keeping the Agile book up to date,
but, you know, if you''re taking requests... ;-)

--
Giles Goat Boy

http://gilesmakesmusic.blogspot.com
http://gileswritescode.blogspot.com

Ruby for Rails by David A. Black (http://www.manning.com/books/black)  
is shaping up to be that book. Just started reading the few beta  
chapters available, and it''s really quit excellent. I think
you''ll
find that this may be exactly what you''re looking for -- it is for  
me. However, only 5 chapters so far, so lots of the stuff is only  
hinted in the TOC.

sebastian

On Mar 3, 2006, at 3:57 PM, Giles Bowkett wrote:
> Just because I feel like being Mr. Devil''s Advocate, how about a
book
> on how Rails was written, instead? I for one would plunk down some
> cash for that a lot sooner than I would for a version-upgrade to
> existing documentation. I''m all for keeping the Agile book up to
date,
> but, you know, if you''re taking requests... ;-)
>
> --
> Giles Goat Boy
>
> http://gilesmakesmusic.blogspot.com
> http://gileswritescode.blogspot.com
> _______________________________________________
> Rails mailing list
> Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org
> http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
>

My God! That''s like the grand prize winner pimp hat of all time.

On 3/3/06, Sebastian Friedrich <sebastian@feldpost.com>
wrote:
> Ruby for Rails by David A. Black (http://www.manning.com/books/black)
> is shaping up to be that book. Just started reading the few beta
> chapters available, and it''s really quit excellent. I think
you''ll
> find that this may be exactly what you''re looking for -- it is for
> me. However, only 5 chapters so far, so lots of the stuff is only
> hinted in the TOC.
>
> sebastian
>
> On Mar 3, 2006, at 3:57 PM, Giles Bowkett wrote:
>
> > Just because I feel like being Mr. Devil''s Advocate, how
about a book
> > on how Rails was written, instead? I for one would plunk down some
> > cash for that a lot sooner than I would for a version-upgrade to
> > existing documentation. I''m all for keeping the Agile book up
to date,
> > but, you know, if you''re taking requests... ;-)
> >
> > --
> > Giles Goat Boy
> >
> > http://gilesmakesmusic.blogspot.com
> > http://gileswritescode.blogspot.com
> > _______________________________________________
> > Rails mailing list
> > Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org
> > http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> Rails mailing list
> Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org
> http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
>

--
Giles Goat Boy

http://gilesmakesmusic.blogspot.com
http://gileswritescode.blogspot.com

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I''m in 100% agreement with the others, Dave.

I''d *absolutely* buy another copy to have
complete coverage of 1.0 features alone.

If the book were updated to 1.1, and the
cart example Ajaxed using RJS, I would be
deliriously happy.

--  
-- Tom Mornini

On Mar 3, 2006, at 7:09 PM, Dave Thomas wrote:
> On Mar 3, 2006, at 15:44, Sebastian Friedrich wrote:
>
>> Thirded! That would be invaluable and i''d gladly pay full
price
>> again for a good update. Even if you could just put out a mini  
>> book covering all the changes/new features since the book (1.1, of  
>> course, but it seems there''s even stuff in 1.0 that
wasn''t there
>> when the book was finalized). Is this something we can look  
>> forward to?
>
> Perhaps... I suspect I''ll be making an announcement either way in
> the next few weeks...
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Tom Mornini wrote:

    > I''d *absolutely* buy another copy to have
    > complete coverage of 1.0 features alone.

Hoooo, wait there: two people in a row offering to pay for an update?
Am I the only one here who finds 20$+ for a pdf books is way too much?
I pay the same price as for the dead tree version, but  I do the 
printing and the binding myself.
So in the end, I pay more for an ""inferior"" product.
Additionaly, the publisher never has to destroy an unsold copy, pay for 
storing, transporting, printing, etc...
I don''t mind people making money when they sell a good product, but 
sometimes this whole "sell at value price, not cost price" mentality 
goes too far for me.

I''ve bought my share of pdf books - 5 in a year -, but I keep thinking 
20$ is rip-off.  I know, it''s harsh, but that''s how I feel.
The "free-update" - *1 - makes it bearable. Should it become a paying 
option, I would lose faith in humanity. Well, not really, but you get my 
point.

*1 - well, not so free as you have to reprint, and rebind.

Alain

I purchase Dave''s pdf book.  I find it convenient to be able to print
just
the pages I need.  I found it well worth the money.  An updated version that
covers the new stuff in Rairls 1.1 would be greatly appreciated.  Even if I
had to pay full price, it would be worth it to get some good well written
documentation.

My 2 cents.
-Larry

On 3/4/06, Alain Ravet <arav2132@biz.tiscali.be>
wrote:
>
> Tom Mornini wrote:
>
>     > I''d *absolutely* buy another copy to have
>     > complete coverage of 1.0 features alone.
>
> Hoooo, wait there: two people in a row offering to pay for an update?
> Am I the only one here who finds 20$+ for a pdf books is way too much?
> I pay the same price as for the dead tree version, but  I do the
> printing and the binding myself.
> So in the end, I pay more for an ""inferior"" product.
> Additionaly, the publisher never has to destroy an unsold copy, pay for
> storing, transporting, printing, etc...
> I don''t mind people making money when they sell a good product,
but
> sometimes this whole "sell at value price, not cost price"
mentality
> goes too far for me.
>
> I''ve bought my share of pdf books - 5 in a year -, but I keep
thinking
> 20$ is rip-off.  I know, it''s harsh, but that''s how I
feel.
> The "free-update" - *1 - makes it bearable. Should it become a
paying
> option, I would lose faith in humanity. Well, not really, but you get my
> point.
>
> *1 - well, not so free as you have to reprint, and rebind.
>
> Alain
>
> _______________________________________________
> Rails mailing list
> Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org
> http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
>


--
Best Regards,
-Larry
"Work, work, work...there is no satisfactory alternative."
            --- E.Taft Benson
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just go and write one for $5.00 - trust me, nobody will try to stop you!
> --- Urspr?ngliche Nachricht ---
> Von: "Larry Kelly" <larry@tellinkltd.com>
> An: rails@lists.rubyonrails.org
> Betreff: Re: [Rails] Re: Agile Web Development with Rails 1.1
> Datum: Sat, 4 Mar 2006 03:05:51 -0800
> 
> I purchase Dave''s pdf book.  I find it convenient to be able to
print just
> the pages I need.  I found it well worth the money.  An updated version
> that
> covers the new stuff in Rairls 1.1 would be greatly appreciated.  Even if
> I
> had to pay full price, it would be worth it to get some good well written
> documentation.
> 
> My 2 cents.
> -Larry
> 
> On 3/4/06, Alain Ravet <arav2132@biz.tiscali.be> wrote:
> >
> > Tom Mornini wrote:
> >
> >     > I''d *absolutely* buy another copy to have
> >     > complete coverage of 1.0 features alone.
> >
> > Hoooo, wait there: two people in a row offering to pay for an update?
> > Am I the only one here who finds 20$+ for a pdf books is way too much?
> > I pay the same price as for the dead tree version, but  I do the
> > printing and the binding myself.
> > So in the end, I pay more for an ""inferior""
product.
> > Additionaly, the publisher never has to destroy an unsold copy, pay
for
> > storing, transporting, printing, etc...
> > I don''t mind people making money when they sell a good
product, but
> > sometimes this whole "sell at value price, not cost price"
mentality
> > goes too far for me.
> >
> > I''ve bought my share of pdf books - 5 in a year -, but I keep
thinking
> > 20$ is rip-off.  I know, it''s harsh, but that''s how
I feel.
> > The "free-update" - *1 - makes it bearable. Should it become
a paying
> > option, I would lose faith in humanity. Well, not really, but you get
my
> > point.
> >
> > *1 - well, not so free as you have to reprint, and rebind.
> >
> > Alain
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Rails mailing list
> > Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org
> > http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
> >
> 
> 
> 
> --
> Best Regards,
> -Larry
> "Work, work, work...there is no satisfactory alternative."
>             --- E.Taft Benson
>

Larry Kelly wrote:
    > I purchase Dave''s pdf book.  I found it well worth the money.

If you read my message till the end, you noticed that I''ve bought 5 
e-books in the last year, and that my point is just
    "should a pdf be cheaper than a real paper book?"
?

In a related matter, I love Apple''s products very much, but I hate
their
marketing practices: I bought iLife 5 in December, 2 months before they 
published iLife 6, and I had to pay the full price for the new version. 
It sucks, I hated it but I bought it.


    > I find it convenient to be able to print just the pages I need.

There''s not discussion that for reading, annotating and browsing, paper
beats rock AND pdf.
And how do you know that you don''t need a page, if not by reading it
first?

I printed my whole copy double-face, and binded it in 3 parts. I must 
have annotated, highlighted, drawn in 20% of the pages.
It will take many more years till a - portable - ebook reader can offer 
you this kind of experience and service.

http://www.weebls-stuff.com/games/Scissors+Paper+Stone/

Alain

Giles Bowkett wrote:
> Just because I feel like being Mr. Devil''s Advocate, how about a
book
> on how Rails was written, instead? I for one would plunk down some
> cash for that a lot sooner than I would for a version-upgrade to
> existing documentation. I''m all for keeping the Agile book up to
date,
> but, you know, if you''re taking requests... ;-)
> 
> --
> Giles Goat Boy
> 
> http://gilesmakesmusic.blogspot.com
> http://gileswritescode.blogspot.com
That would be nice!


-- 
Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.

On 4 Mar 2006, at 06:05, Tom Mornini wrote:
> I''m in 100% agreement with the others, Dave.
>
> I''d *absolutely* buy another copy to have
> complete coverage of 1.0 features alone.
>
> If the book were updated to 1.1, and the
> cart example Ajaxed using RJS, I would be
> deliriously happy.
Yes! I''d buy this definitely. Go on, don''t make us turn the
list into
a petition!


David Smalley
w: http://davidsmalley.com/blog

Hi, I would buy the combo pack if there was a new Rails 1.1 and highly
agree with David.

Peace,

-Conrad

On 3/4/06, David Smalley <david.smalley.lists@googlemail.com>
wrote:
>
> On 4 Mar 2006, at 06:05, Tom Mornini wrote:
>
> > I''m in 100% agreement with the others, Dave.
> >
> > I''d *absolutely* buy another copy to have
> > complete coverage of 1.0 features alone.
> >
> > If the book were updated to 1.1, and the
> > cart example Ajaxed using RJS, I would be
> > deliriously happy.
>
> Yes! I''d buy this definitely. Go on, don''t make us turn
the list into
> a petition!
>
>
> David Smalley
> w: http://davidsmalley.com/blog
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Rails mailing list
> Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org
> http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
>

I''d buy one, too! Just to add to the `petition'' :-)

Conrad Taylor wrote:
> Hi, I would buy the combo pack if there was a new Rails 1.1 and highly
> agree with David.
> 
> Peace,
> 
> -Conrad

-- 
Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.

I''m in.

On 3/4/06, Raphael Schmid <raphael@schwarzschmid.de>
wrote:
> I''d buy one, too! Just to add to the `petition'' :-)
>
> Conrad Taylor wrote:
> > Hi, I would buy the combo pack if there was a new Rails 1.1 and highly
> > agree with David.
> >
> > Peace,
> >
> > -Conrad
>
>
> --
> Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.
> _______________________________________________
> Rails mailing list
> Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org
> http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
>

Michael Gorsuch wrote:
> I''m in.
And me. We''re looking to use RoR as a teaching platform for first years
starting in September 06 and our library will be buying multiple copies
- we need some way of keeping up to date, which as I see it will be a
problem - having to replace virtually new books - that will get me
landed in hot water.

Unless we don''t buy them and - have to lok into what the licensing is
for PDF versions.

-- 
Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.

Well, you also get the book right away and don''t have to wait or travel
to
the store... Plus it is searchable.

Personally, I think the price is totally reasonable.

> From: Alain Ravet <arav2132@biz.tiscali.be>
> Reply-To: <rails@lists.rubyonrails.org>
> Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2006 11:20:39 +0100
> To: <rails@lists.rubyonrails.org>
> Subject: [Rails] Re: Agile Web Development with Rails 1.1
> 
> Hoooo, wait there: two people in a row offering to pay for an update?
> Am I the only one here who finds 20$+ for a pdf books is way too much?
> I pay the same price as for the dead tree version, but  I do the
> printing and the binding myself.
> So in the end, I pay more for an ""inferior"" product.

On Mar 4, 2006, at 2:20 AM, Alain Ravet wrote:
> Tom Mornini wrote:
>
>    > I''d *absolutely* buy another copy to have
>    > complete coverage of 1.0 features alone.
>
> Hoooo, wait there: two people in a row offering to pay for an update?
> Am I the only one here who finds 20$+ for a pdf books is way too much?
I''m sure you''re not the only one, but I''ll never
agree.

I''m paying for the knowledge, which saves me time.

How I get the knowledge is irrelevant.

If you could take a pill and know something inside out, would you
expect to pay less since no paper was involved?

-- 
-- Tom Mornini

On Sat, 2006-03-04 at 16:22 -0800, Tom Mornini wrote:
> On Mar 4, 2006, at 2:20 AM, Alain Ravet wrote:
> 
> > Tom Mornini wrote:
> >
> >    > I''d *absolutely* buy another copy to have
> >    > complete coverage of 1.0 features alone.
> >
> > Hoooo, wait there: two people in a row offering to pay for an update?
> > Am I the only one here who finds 20$+ for a pdf books is way too much?
> 
> I''m sure you''re not the only one, but I''ll never
agree.
> 
> I''m paying for the knowledge, which saves me time.
> 
> How I get the knowledge is irrelevant.
> 
> If you could take a pill and know something inside out, would you
> expect to pay less since no paper was involved?
----
actually - yes...

I thought it was covered before but just in case...

there''s no middle layer of distribution...

printer/paper/shipping/handling/retail store markup/overstock
buybacks/etc.

With PDF, it''s just a simple electronic transaction between Pragmatic
&
buyer

More than that - I take some amount of issue with all of the people
offering to re-purchase the same thing if it had new features. I
understand the mentality because Microsoft, Apple, Adobe and software
vendors have long had the model of make the users repurchase time and
time again but add incredibly little extra value to justify the
repurchase. I have no qualms with people that are willing to throw money
at these software vendors because they don''t want to go through the
pain
of discovering that their is a real alternative in open source.

As for the PDF, the transaction terms were pretty clear, that the
purchase of a PDF was good for the lifetime of the PDF format and though
some are willing to give voice to all the others who don''t agree, they
simply are not empowered to do that. It would be a public relations
nightmare to suddenly change the terms of sale and I am quite sure that
Dave isn''t that stupid.

If there is a Vol II, by all means sell it, but by no means should he
unilaterally, nor can anyone else give away my rights as were agreed
upon at the moment of sale.

Craig

On Mar 4, 2006, at 4:38 PM, Craig White wrote:
> actually - yes...
>
> I thought it was covered before but just in case...
>
> there''s no middle layer of distribution...
>
> printer/paper/shipping/handling/retail store markup/overstock
> buybacks/etc.
>
> With PDF, it''s just a simple electronic transaction between  
> Pragmatic &
> buyer
I''ll never understand people who don''t understand markets.

I''ll agree that commodities always move to a cost plus basis.

But people buy VALUE, and that often has little to do with cost.

The PDF is searchable, that ADDS value. The book is already
physical (for those that prefer it) and can therefore be written
in, so that adds value to people who prefer that.

To suggest that because Dave''s costs are lower for PDF means the
price should be lower is just ridiculous. After all, the PDF
version CAN be printed, in addition to being searchable, whereas
the book will never be searchable.

Additionally, you view the distribution layer as something forcing
up the sales price of the book. It''s just as easy to view it as an
expense to Dave, something reducing his profit alone. After all, I
doubt any publisher today sells direct for less than the retail
price of the book.

Why is this? Simple! Because the price of the book is determined by
it''s value, not by it''s cost. In the past, Dave was willing to
pay
for distribution, because it allowed him to sell the book in high
enough quantities to make a profit on his entire enterprise. He''s
still willing to do it because the most valuable thing to Dave is
his time, which he spent writing the book to begin with. Now he''s
selling the books to pay for the time invested a long time ago, so
the more books he sells at any profit level is a good thing for him.

And as for the pill, if you''re serious you''re just not
thinking
it through. I''d pay thousands of dollars if I could take the pill
and wake up knowing everything it had to say.

As our economy moves more and more into the realm of information,
everyone will eventually understand that TIME is the thing of most
value.
> More than that - I take some amount of issue with all of the people
> offering to re-purchase the same thing if it had new features. I
> understand the mentality because Microsoft, Apple, Adobe and software
> vendors have long had the model of make the users repurchase time and
> time again but add incredibly little extra value to justify the
> repurchase.
Hey, if you don''t want the new features, don''t buy them.
I''ll make that
decision for myself and don''t really care if you take issue with how
I spend my money.
> As for the PDF, the transaction terms were pretty clear, that the
> purchase of a PDF was good for the lifetime of the PDF format and  
> though
> some are willing to give voice to all the others who don''t agree,
they
> simply are not empowered to do that.
1) I don''t have the PDF currently, so I haven''t read the
agreement.

2) I''d be shocked if it gave you rights to anything you
haven''t already
    received. For instance, I''m guessing you OWN your PDF for life, but
    not any new ones that Dave provides.
> It would be a public relations nightmare to suddenly change the  
> terms of
> sale and I am quite sure that Dave isn''t that stupid.
I''m not sure how we got here, but I''m shocked that you are
suggesting
that
Dave is a little bit stupid!
> If there is a Vol II, by all means sell it, but by no means should he
> unilaterally, nor can anyone else give away my rights as were agreed
> upon at the moment of sale.
What are you talking about?

-- 
-- Tom Mornini

On 3/4/06, Craig White <craigwhite@azapple.com>
wrote:
>
> More than that - I take some amount of issue with all of the people
> offering to re-purchase the same thing if it had new features. I understand
> the mentality because Microsoft, Apple, Adobe and software vendors have
long
> had the model of make the users repurchase time and time again but add
> incredibly little extra value to justify the repurchase. I have no qualms
> with people that are willing to throw money at these software vendors
> because they don''t want to go through the pain of discovering that
their is
> a real alternative in open source.

Dave went through an effort that I don''t want to go through myself. 
Namely,
that of searching through the rails code and making sure that every
important aspect of it was covered, in one single resource.  Even if I were
interested in doing this, it would be a huge waste of effort for every one
of us to repeat this task and it is not very likely to happen.  There is a
difference between buying something because you think that''s the only
option
and buying something because the alternative is even more costly to you, but
I''m not interested in judging the mental capacity or courage of buyers.
If
the new edition (whose very existence has yet to be confirmed) costs
additional money, then the answer is simple enough: if you don''t think
it''s
worth it, don''t buy it.

As for the PDF, the transaction terms were pretty clear, that
the
> purchase of a PDF was good for the lifetime of the PDF format and though
> some are willing to give voice to all the others who don''t agree,
they
> simply are not empowered to do that. It would be a public relations
> nightmare to suddenly change the terms of sale and I am quite sure that
Dave
> isn''t that stupid.
>
> If there is a Vol II, by all means sell it, but by no means should he
> unilaterally, nor can anyone else give away my rights as were agreed upon
at
> the moment of sale.

I''m not sure what the exact terms of the sale were, but if he wanted to
charge more money for an update, I don''t think he would have much
trouble.
As you said, call it Vol II, change the title to Rails 1.1, second edition,
whatever.  I wasn''t trying to get technical and assert he do it in such
a
way that breached current purchase agreements with users, so I find it
strange that you made that a point of argument.

Cheers,
Carl
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On Sat, 2006-03-04 at 17:22 -0800, Tom Mornini wrote:
> On Mar 4, 2006, at 4:38 PM, Craig White wrote:
> 
> > actually - yes...
> >
> > I thought it was covered before but just in case...
> >
> > there''s no middle layer of distribution...
> >
> > printer/paper/shipping/handling/retail store markup/overstock
> > buybacks/etc.
> >
> > With PDF, it''s just a simple electronic transaction between  
> > Pragmatic &
> > buyer
> 
> I''ll never understand people who don''t understand
markets.
> 
> I''ll agree that commodities always move to a cost plus basis.
> 
> But people buy VALUE, and that often has little to do with cost.
> 
> The PDF is searchable, that ADDS value. The book is already
> physical (for those that prefer it) and can therefore be written
> in, so that adds value to people who prefer that.
> 
> To suggest that because Dave''s costs are lower for PDF means the
> price should be lower is just ridiculous. After all, the PDF
> version CAN be printed, in addition to being searchable, whereas
> the book will never be searchable.
> 
> Additionally, you view the distribution layer as something forcing
> up the sales price of the book. It''s just as easy to view it as an
> expense to Dave, something reducing his profit alone. After all, I
> doubt any publisher today sells direct for less than the retail
> price of the book.
> 
> Why is this? Simple! Because the price of the book is determined by
> it''s value, not by it''s cost. In the past, Dave was
willing to pay
> for distribution, because it allowed him to sell the book in high
> enough quantities to make a profit on his entire enterprise. He''s
> still willing to do it because the most valuable thing to Dave is
> his time, which he spent writing the book to begin with. Now he''s
> selling the books to pay for the time invested a long time ago, so
> the more books he sells at any profit level is a good thing for him.
> 
> And as for the pill, if you''re serious you''re just not
thinking
> it through. I''d pay thousands of dollars if I could take the pill
> and wake up knowing everything it had to say.
> 
> As our economy moves more and more into the realm of information,
> everyone will eventually understand that TIME is the thing of most
> value.
----
You and I have different ''value sets'' and thus we will ascribe
value to
different things. 

Instead of accepting that - you are assuming that I should absorb the
''cost'' of what you ''value'' but I
don''t ''value''.

I was speaking about cost - which is the amount that I pay. It may or
may not have a direct relationship to what I or you might
''value'' and
that is entirely beside the point because I am talking about
''cost'' not
''value''

I consider that my ''cost'' should be lower because the
distribution
''cost'' of getting said information to me is considerably less.
You are
saying that the ''value'' should make some equate to my
''cost'' and I don''t
agree - I can live with that. 

I actually read dead tree form publications at my leisure, away from my
computer, often while I am eating and don''t particularly enjoy...

printing volumes on my printer when not necessary...
reading large amounts (pages and pages) on screen...
though I have purchased ''PDF''s from pragmatic, I have also
purchased
dead tree form of Pickaxe and AWDWR
----
> 
> > More than that - I take some amount of issue with all of the people
> > offering to re-purchase the same thing if it had new features. I
> > understand the mentality because Microsoft, Apple, Adobe and software
> > vendors have long had the model of make the users repurchase time and
> > time again but add incredibly little extra value to justify the
> > repurchase.
> 
> Hey, if you don''t want the new features, don''t buy them.
I''ll make that
> decision for myself and don''t really care if you take issue with
how
> I spend my money.
> 
> > As for the PDF, the transaction terms were pretty clear, that the
> > purchase of a PDF was good for the lifetime of the PDF format and  
> > though
> > some are willing to give voice to all the others who don''t
agree, they
> > simply are not empowered to do that.
> 
> 1) I don''t have the PDF currently, so I haven''t read the
agreement.
> 
> 2) I''d be shocked if it gave you rights to anything you
haven''t already
>     received. For instance, I''m guessing you OWN your PDF for
life, but
>     not any new ones that Dave provides.
> 
> > It would be a public relations nightmare to suddenly change the  
> > terms of
> > sale and I am quite sure that Dave isn''t that stupid.
> 
> I''m not sure how we got here, but I''m shocked that you
are suggesting
> that
> Dave is a little bit stupid!
> 
> > If there is a Vol II, by all means sell it, but by no means should he
> > unilaterally, nor can anyone else give away my rights as were agreed
> > upon at the moment of sale.
> 
> What are you talking about?
----
read it yourself...

http://www.pragmaticprogrammer.com/starter_kit/faqs/pdf_update_faq.html

This makes it entirely clear what the terms of sale are/were and you
probably should have researched it before you got on to this topic.

Now - does anyone else want to spout off again about re-purchasing Agile
Web Development with Rails PDF?

Craig

On Sat, 2006-03-04 at 17:22 -0800, Carl Youngblood wrote:
>         If there is a Vol II, by all means sell it, but by no means
>         should he unilaterally, nor can anyone else give away my
>         rights as were agreed upon at the moment of sale.
> 
> I''m not sure what the exact terms of the sale were, but if he
wanted
> to charge more money for an update, I don''t think he would have
much
> trouble.  As you said, call it Vol II, change the title to Rails 1.1,
> second edition, whatever.  I wasn''t trying to get technical and
assert
> he do it in such a way that breached current purchase agreements with
> users, so I find it strange that you made that a point of argument.
----
see my other response to Tom with link to specific information about PDF
format. It''s clear enough.

Craig

On Mar 4, 2006, at 20:07, Craig White wrote:
> read it yourself...
>
> http://www.pragmaticprogrammer.com/starter_kit/faqs/ 
> pdf_update_faq.html
>
> This makes it entirely clear what the terms of sale are/were and you
> probably should have researched it before you got on to this topic.
>
> Now - does anyone else want to spout off again about re-purchasing  
> Agile
> Web Development with Rails PDF?
If I rewrite the Rails book, it will be a new edition of the work.  
The FAQ says "If you buy a PDF from us, you''ll be able to download
the latest version for free for the lifetime of the edition of the  
book." That''s the agreement, and we obviously will honor it.

But, and here''s the thing, we''ll all talking hypotheticals
here. I
have no idea what''s likely to happpen--I''m still thinking
about it.
And, if we do go ahead with a new edition of the book, I have no idea  
how we''ll charge for it, how we''ll deal with upgrades from the
first
edition (if at all), what the price will be, etc, etc.

Ultimately, I want to do what''s right here.


Regards


Dave

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On Sat, 2006-03-04 at 20:37 -0600, Dave Thomas wrote:
> On Mar 4, 2006, at 20:07, Craig White wrote:
> 
> > read it yourself...
> >
> > http://www.pragmaticprogrammer.com/starter_kit/faqs/ 
> > pdf_update_faq.html
> >
> > This makes it entirely clear what the terms of sale are/were and you
> > probably should have researched it before you got on to this topic.
> >
> > Now - does anyone else want to spout off again about re-purchasing  
> > Agile
> > Web Development with Rails PDF?
> 
> If I rewrite the Rails book, it will be a new edition of the work.  
> The FAQ says "If you buy a PDF from us, you''ll be able to
download
> the latest version for free for the lifetime of the edition of the  
> book." That''s the agreement, and we obviously will honor it.
> 
> But, and here''s the thing, we''ll all talking
hypotheticals here. I
> have no idea what''s likely to happpen--I''m still thinking
about it.
> And, if we do go ahead with a new edition of the book, I have no idea  
> how we''ll charge for it, how we''ll deal with upgrades
from the first
> edition (if at all), what the price will be, etc, etc.
> 
> Ultimately, I want to do what''s right here.
----
I had faith that you would

Craig

On Mar 4, 2006, at 6:07 PM, Craig White wrote:
> On Sat, 2006-03-04 at 17:22 -0800, Tom Mornini wrote:
>> I''ll never understand people who don''t understand
markets.
> You and I have different ''value sets'' and thus we will
ascribe
> value to
> different things.
Oh, sure, no surprise there...
> Instead of accepting that - you are assuming that I should absorb the
> ''cost'' of what you ''value'' but I
don''t ''value''.
No, I''m not assuming any such thing. If you don''t want it,
don''t pay
for it.
> I was speaking about cost - which is the amount that I pay. It may or
> may not have a direct relationship to what I or you might
''value'' and
> that is entirely beside the point because I am talking about
''cost''
> not
> ''value''
No, you''re talking about price.
> I consider that my ''cost'' should be lower because the
distribution
> ''cost'' of getting said information to me is considerably
less. You are
> saying that the ''value'' should make some equate to my
''cost'' and I
> don''t
> agree - I can live with that.
But you don''t set the price (your cost), Dave does.
>>> If there is a Vol II, by all means sell it, but by no means  
>>> should he
>>> unilaterally, nor can anyone else give away my rights as were
agreed
>>> upon at the moment of sale.
>>
>> What are you talking about?
> ----
> read it yourself...
>
> http://www.pragmaticprogrammer.com/starter_kit/faqs/ 
> pdf_update_faq.html
>
> This makes it entirely clear what the terms of sale are/were and you
> probably should have researched it before you got on to this topic.
I made it clear that I hadn''t read it and...
> Now - does anyone else want to spout off again about re-purchasing  
> Agile
> Web Development with Rails PDF?
Read it again. I *guarantee* you there''s nothing at that link that says
that a future version about a different version of rails is going to be
free to you.

Dave *could* decide it should be, but there''s nothing on that page  
that says
it will be.

-- 
-- Tom Mornini

I don''t think this warrants a big discussion. It''s rather
simple:
Many people here (me included) have voiced that they would love to  
see an updated version of this excellent book and would gladly pay  
full price for an update. Personally, i would never expect to have  
some kind upgrade path when it comes to a new edition of a book, pdf  
or not. As Tom pointed out, the sales price will be determined by the  
publisher and you can take it or leave it -- your current edition  
will remain just as valuable. But i''d rather you let me speak for  
myself and not tell me i''m "spouting off" supporting some
greedy
scheme. Besides, Dave hasn''t even decided to write this book. Nice  
way of setting the incentives...

Sebastian

On Mar 4, 2006, at 9:56 PM, Craig White wrote:
> On Sat, 2006-03-04 at 20:37 -0600, Dave Thomas wrote:
>> On Mar 4, 2006, at 20:07, Craig White wrote:
>>
>>> read it yourself...
>>>
>>> http://www.pragmaticprogrammer.com/starter_kit/faqs/
>>> pdf_update_faq.html
>>>
>>> This makes it entirely clear what the terms of sale are/were and
you
>>> probably should have researched it before you got on to this topic.
>>>
>>> Now - does anyone else want to spout off again about re-purchasing
>>> Agile
>>> Web Development with Rails PDF?
>>
>> If I rewrite the Rails book, it will be a new edition of the work.
>> The FAQ says "If you buy a PDF from us, you''ll be able to
download
>> the latest version for free for the lifetime of the edition of the
>> book." That''s the agreement, and we obviously will honor
it.
>>
>> But, and here''s the thing, we''ll all talking
hypotheticals here. I
>> have no idea what''s likely to happpen--I''m still
thinking about it.
>> And, if we do go ahead with a new edition of the book, I have no idea
>> how we''ll charge for it, how we''ll deal with upgrades
from the first
>> edition (if at all), what the price will be, etc, etc.
>>
>> Ultimately, I want to do what''s right here.
> ----
> I had faith that you would
>
> Craig
>
> _______________________________________________
> Rails mailing list
> Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org
> http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
>

Dave Thomas wrote:
> If I rewrite the Rails book, it will be a new edition of the work.
> The FAQ says "If you buy a PDF from us, you''ll be able to
download
> the latest version for free for the lifetime of the edition of the
> book." That''s the agreement, and we obviously will honor it.
> 
> But, and here''s the thing, we''ll all talking
hypotheticals here. I
> have no idea what''s likely to happpen--I''m still thinking
about it.
> And, if we do go ahead with a new edition of the book, I have no idea
> how we''ll charge for it, how we''ll deal with upgrades
from the first
> edition (if at all), what the price will be, etc, etc.
> 
> Ultimately, I want to do what''s right here.
We know you want to do the right thing, Dave. You''re known in the 
community as a generous and trustworthy guy, so I don''t think anyone 
would doubt your motives.

It''s interesting how much discussion this thread has generated. I think
that''s because you are creating new rules for publishing and none of us
understand entirely how those new rules work. If I buy a paper book, 
once I have the book in my hand the process is complete. You have 
extended that process by doing things like offering free updates for the 
life of an edition, which is a valuable enhancement to the publishing 
model, and being able to get a new PDF at any time if I lose my old 
copy. Likewise the beta book program blurs the way people think about 
books vs software. I think it''s only natural for people to start 
thinking that the books you publish may be more like software in other 
ways too, possibly including a reduced price for upgrading from a 
previous version. It''s a subject well worth discussing, and as someone 
who probably has at least one more book in him, I''m more than a little 
interested in the outcome.

--josh
http://blog.hasmanythrough.com

-- 
Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.

Guys,

Let''s cut to the chase here:
- the Agile book was the first intro to RoR for many of us, and got us
from "newbie" to productive very rapidly
- at that point, we could more or less keep up with progress to the
extent we wanted/needed.  Rails grew up, and we did too
- a new generation of RoR newbies has now emerged, bought the Agile
book because that''s what *we* all learned from, and found it lacking. 
It doesn''t cover a lot of the really useful features in current Rails,
and some of the examples don''t work any more as written

If I was a newbie, at this point I''d be wondering what sort of
community could recommend a book as "the bible" when much of it is
outdated and now broken.

There''s only three real ways forward:
- update the Agile book so that the examples actually work OK again,
and it starts to look at more current Rails tools such as switchtower,
AJAX, etc.
- find (or write!) a new RoR book covering this stuff, and start
recommending it to newbies
- become a "closed'' community, with an increasing gulf between
newbies
and those who are relatively expert.  Not a great recipe for ongoing
success in an open source project

Either of the first 2 are fine with me - I''ll probably pick up an
AJAX-focused Rails book when one is released and I come across it, and
I''ll certainly pick up Ezra''s deployment book when it comes
out.  If
the Agile book gets updated, that''d be great, but I don''t
think anyone
"owes" it to me to update it - it served its purpose very well getting
me going, and now I''m pretty much self sufficient in the things it
covers.

Where there is a problem (IMHO) is in recommending the Agile book in
its present state as a great resource to newbies.  It once was, but it
isn''t any more because Rails has evolved so quickly.  If the newbie is
a self starter, happy to read through loads of old email list
messages, hunt through Google, and not expecting instant
enlightenment, then the Agile book is a pretty good resource.  If not,
then it''s become out of date to the point where a newbie is just as
likely to walk away altogether as to persist.

If there is a better/more current resource than the Agile book out
there for newbies, let''s start pointing it out to them.

Regards

Dave M.

On 05/03/06, Josh Susser <josh@hasmanythrough.com>
wrote:
> Dave Thomas wrote:
> > If I rewrite the Rails book, it will be a new edition of the work.
> > The FAQ says "If you buy a PDF from us, you''ll be able
to download
> > the latest version for free for the lifetime of the edition of the
> > book." That''s the agreement, and we obviously will honor
it.
> >
> > But, and here''s the thing, we''ll all talking
hypotheticals here. I
> > have no idea what''s likely to happpen--I''m still
thinking about it.
> > And, if we do go ahead with a new edition of the book, I have no idea
> > how we''ll charge for it, how we''ll deal with
upgrades from the first
> > edition (if at all), what the price will be, etc, etc.
> >
> > Ultimately, I want to do what''s right here.
>
> We know you want to do the right thing, Dave. You''re known in the
> community as a generous and trustworthy guy, so I don''t think
anyone
> would doubt your motives.
>
> It''s interesting how much discussion this thread has generated. I
think
> that''s because you are creating new rules for publishing and none
of us
> understand entirely how those new rules work. If I buy a paper book,
> once I have the book in my hand the process is complete. You have
> extended that process by doing things like offering free updates for the
> life of an edition, which is a valuable enhancement to the publishing
> model, and being able to get a new PDF at any time if I lose my old
> copy. Likewise the beta book program blurs the way people think about
> books vs software. I think it''s only natural for people to start
> thinking that the books you publish may be more like software in other
> ways too, possibly including a reduced price for upgrading from a
> previous version. It''s a subject well worth discussing, and as
someone
> who probably has at least one more book in him, I''m more than a
little
> interested in the outcome.
>
> --josh
> http://blog.hasmanythrough.com
>
> --
> Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.
> _______________________________________________
> Rails mailing list
> Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org
> http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
>

On 5 Mar 2006, at 06:39, Sebastian Friedrich wrote:
> I don''t think this warrants a big discussion. It''s rather
simple:
> Many people here (me included) have voiced that they would love to  
> see an updated version of this excellent book and would gladly pay  
> full price for an update.
I personally don''t care if the cost of producing a PDF is cheaper, in  
my view it just makes me happier that hopefully Dave will make more  
from it with less to spend on printing and distribution. The value  
here is the information, even if it was written in crayon on a toilet  
roll we''re still paying for the information that Dave has researched  
and compiled. Anyway, as Sebastian said it certainly doesn''t warrant  
a big discussion, if you don''t want it, don''t buy it.

Dave: Any hope of persuading the publisher to produce a "site  
license" for the PDF :-)

David Smalley
w: http://davidsmalley.com/blog

Tom

    > If you could take a pill and know something inside out, would you
    > expect to pay less since no paper was involved?

- IKEA''s furniture is cheaper, partly because you do some of the 
assembling and transporting.
- iTunes music is cheaper, partly because they don''t have to burn CD, 
ship, etc..
Would you buy music from iTunes if it was the same price as a real CD 
bought at Wall-Mart?
Additionally,
  - you can resell your CD on eBay.
  - you can listen to your music anywhere there''s a cd player.

eBooks:
You have to print (and bind?) your pdf yourself.
I''m not sure you''re authorized to resell your pdf.

With pdf, we gain a little (early access), but the seller gains a lot 
(early sell, no printing, no shipping, no return).
It''s not win-win, it win-WINWINWIN.

That''s how I feel.

Alain

Stepping into this increasingly hot thread, I''d like to throw in my
two cents about AWD and Rails 1.1: I''d, personally, like to see an
addendum or mini-book or something that updates the original book
rather than a newly updated book itself. Why? I simply don''t want to
have to comb over a lot of stuff I read and learned before in order to
get the updated information. This is especially important since AWD is
less of a reference and more of a guide. It''s not that I don''t
want to
pay, charge for it and I will pay, I just don''t want to plaay
"Where''s
Waldo" with the new info.

Heck, maybe do a best-of-both-worlds and have the "What''s
new" section
separate from the rest of the content, or make it easily identifiable
in some other way.

On 3/3/06, Carl Youngblood <carl@youngbloods.org>
wrote:
> Dave, on another topic, might I recommend that you and DHH publish an
> updated version of the Agile guide right away when 1.1 comes out?  You
could
> reuse much of your material and it would do a lot of good to help make sure
> there is still a good centralized source of reference for Rails.  Without
> that book, there really is not a good one-stop source of information for
> people to learn how to use Rails.  It also seems like many of the features
> in 1.1 are only very sparsely documented, so it would be very invaluable to
> people.  Even though I bought the first edition in beta PDF and print, I
> would still shell out more for an update.
>
> Thanks for listening.
>
> Carl
>
> On 3/2/06, Dave Thomas <dave@pragprog.com> wrote:
> > We view it very much as a win-win situation. Yes, we get money
> > earlier than we otherwise would. But at the same time, a community
> > that is easger to get this information gets it many, many months
> > before the regular publishing cycle would. Yes, the readers help find
> > bugs in the books. But, atthe same time, the readers also get to
> > steer the book, telling the author what they want to see as the book
> > evolves. AWDwR was greatly influenced by early feedback, and I think
> > its a better book (and the vommunity has a better resource) because
> > of it.
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> Rails mailing list
> Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org
> http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
>
>
>

--
-Matt Torok

Alain Ravet wrote :
| With pdf, we gain a little (early access), but the seller gains a lot 
| (early sell, no printing, no shipping, no return).
| It''s not win-win, it win-WINWINWIN.

... and AFAIK nobody forces you to buy PDF version... I do personally
think that the early access is one of the best things that have recently
happened regarding publishing, books, and so on. I do think this is
win-win, because I can read a book before it''s out, and I can help to
fix problem with the content. The publisher gets feedback and can rise the
quality of his books.

Now there''s the price issue. The publisher, the author have work to
write the book. What''s wrong with the fact they do want to earn money
with this? Would the price be to high, nobody would buy the PDF ... 

-- 
Frederick Ros aka Sleeper -- sleeper@jabber.fr

Take care to branch the right way on equality.
            - The Elements of Programming Style (Kernighan & Plaugher)
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On Mar 5, 2006, at 12:20, Matt Torok wrote:
> Stepping into this increasingly hot thread, I''d like to throw in
my
> two cents about AWD and Rails 1.1: I''d, personally, like to see an
> addendum or mini-book or something that updates the original book
> rather than a newly updated book itself. Why? I simply don''t want
to
> have to comb over a lot of stuff I read and learned before in order to
> get the updated information. This is especially important since AWD is
> less of a reference and more of a guide. It''s not that I
don''t want to
> pay, charge for it and I will pay, I just don''t want to plaay
"Where''s
> Waldo" with the new info.
That point of view makes sense. But on the other hand, a lot of  
people is coming to RoR and would prefer a book on 1.1 than read 500  
pages of 1.0 with a permanent thread "TODO: check this against the  
1.1 appendix"? The Agile is THE book for RoR, and I believe it has to  
keep its status quo.

If I was the author I would make a second edition with a bold 1.1 in  
the cover. People fluent in RoR stay in sync with a "What''s
new"
article just fine. You need to know what''s new in RoR, the Agile is  
more of a guide and, well, you could publish something like "See, in  
Depot that part done with RJS would go like this", but, I don''t
know,
a delta like that does not have much sense to me.

The only book available nowadays about SQLite is about SQLite 2. I  
bought it because it is the only one, and because the changes in  
SQLite 3 are public and I could read them before I read the book, so  
I kind of knew when I was reading something outdated. Nonetheless, I  
will definitely buy the one is about to be published in weeks for  
SQLite 3.

-- fxn

On Sun, Mar 05, 2006 at 12:11:34PM +0100, Alain Ravet wrote:
[...]
> With pdf, we gain a little (early access), but the seller gains a lot 
> (early sell, no printing, no shipping, no return).
> It''s not win-win, it win-WINWINWIN.
> 
> That''s how I feel.
The margins on traditional book selling are very slim to begin with.

Suppose it''s a PDF and it costs $20 (which, incidentally, is 30%
cheaper than the print version). Now they sell 10,000 copies in a
year. Writing a book isn''t easy, and it requires a lot of
people. Divide that 200-grand by the two authors, four co-authors,
editors, layout designers, fact checkers, assitants, and whatever
incidental costs there are to distribute it. Now give the credit card
companies their cut.

Figure the book takes a year to write, and it''s obsolete by next
year. That''s not a living wage in most cities.

-- 
				- Adam

** Expert Technical Project and Business Management
**** System Performance Analysis and Architecture
****** [ http://www.everylastounce.com ]

[ http://www.aquick.org/blog ] ............ Blog
[ http://www.adamfields.com/resume.html ].. Experience
[ http://www.flickr.com/photos/fields ] ... Photos
[ http://www.aquicki.com/wiki ].............Wiki
[ http://del.icio.us/fields ] ............. Links

Adam
    > Suppose it''s a PDF and it costs $20 (which, incidentally, is
30%
    > cheaper than the print version).

AWDR :

   pdf     = 22.50$ on PP
   paper = 22$ on Amazon


Alain

On Mar 5, 2006, at 2:23 AM, David Mitchell wrote:
> Where there is a problem (IMHO) is in recommending the Agile book in
> its present state as a great resource to newbies.  It once was, but it
> isn''t any more because Rails has evolved so quickly.  If the
newbie is
> a self starter, happy to read through loads of old email list
> messages, hunt through Google, and not expecting instant
> enlightenment, then the Agile book is a pretty good resource.  If not,
> then it''s become out of date to the point where a newbie is just
as
> likely to walk away altogether as to persist.

While I agree it is definitely worth updating the book to bring it up  
to 1.1, I''m not sure I agree that it''s _that_ out of date. The
testing chapter got broken when the core team changed the defaults,  
but I think everything else works fine.

I agree 100% that it needs the update to 1.1 features--migrations,  
ST, the new joins, etc, etc-- and I''ll be doing that if I can find a  
way for it to make sense (and not piss everyone off :). But I''m not  
sure I agree the situation is a grim as you paint it.


Dave

On Mar 5, 2006, at 3:54 AM, David Smalley wrote:
> Dave: Any hope of persuading the publisher to produce a "site  
> license" for the PDF :-)

EMail sales@pragprog.com--we do them all the time :)

On Mar 5, 2006, at 5:11 AM, Alain Ravet wrote:
> You have to print (and bind?) your pdf yourself.
For me, the PDF was never intended to be printed (and I''m surprised  
to hear folks talking about doing that). It''s normally cheaper to buy  
the bound book than buy a PDF and print it.

But, that raises an interesting question. Would folks be interested  
in a more easily printed version of the PDF (no borders, black and  
white, no hyperlinks, etc)?

> With pdf, we gain a little (early access), but the seller gains a  
> lot (early sell, no printing, no shipping, no return).
> It''s not win-win, it win-WINWINWIN.
I think you''re discounting the real cost of creating a book. But,  
clearly, if you feel the PDFs don''t give you value, I''d
recommend not
buying them.



Dave

The point of the ebook is get the developer into the Ruby on Rails world. 
At some point you are going to have to jump into the source and continue to 
learn how to use this wonderful framework.  If you are looking for someone 
to show you step by step how to write your rails app then you are looking 
for a unicorn.  However, if you are looking to get a good head start at 
learning this framework, then buy the book!  Catch up on the new features at 
the www.rubyonrails.com and this mailing list.  I guess my points are 1. 
The book gets you moving in a direction.  2.  You will have to dig and learn 
things on your own to keep momentum going...

Thanks for the book Dave, you helped me to enjoy programming again.

--Ryan Ripley


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Dave Thomas" <dave@pragprog.com>
To: <rails@lists.rubyonrails.org>
Sent: Sunday, March 05, 2006 12:46 PM
Subject: Re: [Rails] Re: Re: Agile Web Development with Rails 1.1

>
> On Mar 5, 2006, at 2:23 AM, David Mitchell wrote:
>
>> Where there is a problem (IMHO) is in recommending the Agile book in
>> its present state as a great resource to newbies.  It once was, but it
>> isn''t any more because Rails has evolved so quickly.  If the
newbie is
>> a self starter, happy to read through loads of old email list
>> messages, hunt through Google, and not expecting instant
>> enlightenment, then the Agile book is a pretty good resource.  If not,
>> then it''s become out of date to the point where a newbie is
just as
>> likely to walk away altogether as to persist.
>
>
> While I agree it is definitely worth updating the book to bring it up  to 
> 1.1, I''m not sure I agree that it''s _that_ out of date.
The  testing
> chapter got broken when the core team changed the defaults,  but I think 
> everything else works fine.
>
> I agree 100% that it needs the update to 1.1 features--migrations,  ST, 
> the new joins, etc, etc-- and I''ll be doing that if I can find a 
way for
> it to make sense (and not piss everyone off :). But I''m not  sure
I agree
> the situation is a grim as you paint it.
>
>
> Dave
>
> _______________________________________________
> Rails mailing list
> Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org
> http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
>

Dave Thomas wrote:
>
> On Mar 5, 2006, at 5:11 AM, Alain Ravet wrote:
>
> > You have to print (and bind?) your pdf yourself.
>
> For me, the PDF was never intended to be printed (and I''m
surprised
> to hear folks talking about doing that). It''s normally cheaper to
buy
> the bound book than buy a PDF and print it.
[BW]  But if the printed version isn''t out yet...

[BW]  This thread has gotten me wondering if it might not be worth
reconsidering the old notion of keeping documentation in 3-ring binders.  It
handled document updates pretty easily; "replace pages x-y with
these."
Also made it pretty easy, for anyone who was interested, to see exactly what
was being changed.  Just a thought.

Bill
> But, that raises an interesting question. Would folks be interested
> in a more easily printed version of the PDF (no borders, black and
> white, no hyperlinks, etc)?
>
>
> > With pdf, we gain a little (early access), but the seller gains a
> > lot (early sell, no printing, no shipping, no return).
> > It''s not win-win, it win-WINWINWIN.
>
> I think you''re discounting the real cost of creating a book. But,
> clearly, if you feel the PDFs don''t give you value, I''d
recommend not
> buying them.
>
>
>
> Dave
>
> _______________________________________________
> Rails mailing list
> Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org
> http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails

On Sun, Mar 05, 2006 at 11:52:27AM -0600, Dave Thomas wrote:
[...]
> For me, the PDF was never intended to be printed (and I''m
surprised
> to hear folks talking about doing that). It''s normally cheaper to
buy
> the bound book than buy a PDF and print it.
While I don''t often print the whole thing of the pdfs I buy, it is
very useful to print out specific reference pages, if I''m often going
back to a specific page, or want to mark something up with notes.
> But, that raises an interesting question. Would folks be interested  
> in a more easily printed version of the PDF (no borders, black and  
> white, no hyperlinks, etc)?
Yes. (Color''s fine though, but it should degrade gracefully for those
without color printers.) I often print 2-up and double sided, so extra
margins and borders just mean that much less space for the text.

Also - I often take pdfs and convert them to palm format for reading
on the train, so tagging for that would be helpful.

-- 
				- Adam

** Expert Technical Project and Business Management
**** System Performance Analysis and Architecture
****** [ http://www.adamfields.com ]

[ http://www.aquick.org/blog ] ............ Blog
[ http://www.adamfields.com/resume.html ].. Experience
[ http://www.flickr.com/photos/fields ] ... Photos
[ http://www.aquicki.com/wiki ].............Wiki

Dave Thomas wrote:
> 
> On Mar 5, 2006, at 3:54 AM, David Smalley wrote:
> 
>> Dave: Any hope of persuading the publisher to produce a "site
license"
>> for the PDF :-)
> 
> 
> EMail sales@pragprog.com--we do them all the time :)
Thanks for that info - it would be good if you could put it on the web site.

   Justin

Dave Thomas wrote:
> 
> On Mar 5, 2006, at 5:11 AM, Alain Ravet wrote:
> 
>> You have to print (and bind?) your pdf yourself.
> 
> For me, the PDF was never intended to be printed (and I''m
surprised to
> hear folks talking about doing that). It''s normally cheaper to buy
the
> bound book than buy a PDF and print it.
Bear in mind that for many people printing is an uncosted service 
provided by their employer.

Having hard copy is valuable if you want it side by side with your work, 
e.g. when following a tutorial. And to make notes on. It''s handy to be 
able to print out a section of interest, say for learning while 
commuting by train... and so on.
> But, that raises an interesting question. Would folks be interested in a 
> more easily printed version of the PDF (no borders, black and white, no 
> hyperlinks, etc)?
In my case, I''m happy with the existing PDF format, and definitely 
wouldn''t want to lose the hyperlinks.

   Justin

Dave

    > For me, the PDF was never intended to be printed (and I''m 
surprised to
    > hear folks talking about doing that).

I''m even more surprised by people considering reading on screen a 
500-page reference book (and not annotating it).


    > It''s normally cheaper to buy the bound book than buy a PDF and
print it.

1/ the pdf comes months before the paper version. Some are only 
available in pdf.
2/ the paper used in the dead tree version (of AWDR) is too thin: if you 
write/highlight on the recto, it shows on the verso.
I like writing in my books, highlighting, annotating, enriching them.

    > I think you''re discounting the real cost of creating a book.
But,
    > clearly, if you feel the PDFs don''t give you value,
I''d recommend not
    > buying them.

Once again, I never said nor wrote that, on the contrary. Reread my 
messages.
You can''t stop people from seeing a parallel between pdf books and 
downloaded music. iTunes albums are (much) cheaper than their boxed 
plastic equivalents.

Alain

On Sunday 05 March 2006 12:52 pm, Dave Thomas wrote:
> On Mar 5, 2006, at 5:11 AM, Alain Ravet wrote:
> > You have to print (and bind?) your pdf yourself.
>
> For me, the PDF was never intended to be printed (and I''m
surprised
> to hear folks talking about doing that). It''s normally cheaper to
buy
> the bound book than buy a PDF and print it.
Right, but in large (stupid) businesses, printing on the laser printer is free 
while buying a book costs money.  Well, free-for-the-user-not-the-company.

On 3/5/06, Alain Ravet <arav2132@biz.tiscali.be>
wrote:
> Adam
>     > Suppose it''s a PDF and it costs $20 (which, incidentally,
is 30%
>     > cheaper than the print version).
>
> AWDR :
>
>    pdf     = 22.50$ on PP
>    paper = 22$ on Amazon
And Amazon.com gives really steep discounts on books.

Your argument seems to be that:

a) you value the pdf higher than the paper book, for reasons you''ve
enumerated:
> 1/ the pdf comes months before the paper version. Some are only 
> available in pdf. 2/ the paper used in the dead tree version (of 
> AWDR) is too thin: if you write/highlight on the recto, it shows on 
> the verso. I like writing in my books, highlighting, annotating, 
> enriching them.
b) you think the pdf product is inferior and should be cheaper than the 
paper book:
> So in the end, I pay more for an ""inferior"" product.
Additionaly,
> the publisher never has to destroy an unsold copy, pay for storing,
> transporting, printing, etc...
So something you value more is "inferior"...  I hope it''s
obvious why,
at this point, I feel compelled to say "WTF?"

I don''t mean this as a personal attack, so please don''t take
it as one.
  You paid what you paid for the eBook, but you "keep thinking 20$ is a 
rip-off".  Why, if you keep thinking they''re priced too high, do
you pay
that price?  If they''re worth more to you than the price you pay, and 
you''re not forced into buying them, where''s the problem?  I
just don''t
see the logic.

-- 
Alex

On Sun, Mar 05, 2006 at 11:53:26AM -0800, Joe Van Dyk
wrote:
> On 3/5/06, Alain Ravet <arav2132@biz.tiscali.be> wrote:
> > Adam
> >     > Suppose it''s a PDF and it costs $20 (which,
incidentally, is 30%
> >     > cheaper than the print version).
> >
> > AWDR :
> >
> >    pdf     = 22.50$ on PP
> >    paper = 22$ on Amazon
> 
> And Amazon.com gives really steep discounts on books.
I guess the next question is - Amazon also sells PDFs, so do they give
equally steep discounts on those?

-- 
				- Adam

** Expert Technical Project and Business Management
**** System Performance Analysis and Architecture
****** [ http://www.adamfields.com ]

[ http://www.aquick.org/blog ] ............ Blog
[ http://www.adamfields.com/resume.html ].. Experience
[ http://www.flickr.com/photos/fields ] ... Photos
[ http://www.aquicki.com/wiki ].............Wiki

On 3/4/06, Alain Ravet <arav2132@biz.tiscali.be>
wrote:
> Tom Mornini wrote:
>
>     > I''d *absolutely* buy another copy to have
>     > complete coverage of 1.0 features alone.
>
> Hoooo, wait there: two people in a row offering to pay for an update?
> Am I the only one here who finds 20$+ for a pdf books is way too much?
> I pay the same price as for the dead tree version, but  I do the
> printing and the binding myself.
> So in the end, I pay more for an ""inferior"" product.
> Additionaly, the publisher never has to destroy an unsold copy, pay for
> storing, transporting, printing, etc...
> I don''t mind people making money when they sell a good product,
but
> sometimes this whole "sell at value price, not cost price"
mentality
> goes too far for me.
>
> I''ve bought my share of pdf books - 5 in a year -, but I keep
thinking
> 20$ is rip-off.  I know, it''s harsh, but that''s how I
feel.
> The "free-update" - *1 - makes it bearable. Should it become a
paying
> option, I would lose faith in humanity. Well, not really, but you get my
> point.
>
> *1 - well, not so free as you have to reprint, and rebind.
Maybe some ruby would help?

class Buyer
  attr_accessor :name
  def initialize(name='''')
    @name = name
  end
end

class Seller
  attr_accessor :name
  def initialize(name='''')
    @name = name
  end
end

class Product
  attr_accessor :name, :price
  def initialize(name='''', price=0)
    @name = name
    @price = price
  end
end

class Transaction
  attr_accessor :name, :seller, :product, :value
  def initialize(buyer, seller, product, value)
    @seller = seller
    @buyer = buyer
    @product = product
    case
    when value > product.price then praise()
    when value < product.price then bitch()
    else satisfied()
    end
  end

  def bitch
    puts "This product costs too much!"
  end

  def praise
    puts "This product is perfect!"
  end

  def satisfied
    puts "This product is ok."
  end
end

buyer = Buyer.new(''me'')
seller = Seller.new(''Pragmatic Programmers'')
product = Product.new(''Rails Book'', 20)

Transaction.new(buyer, seller, product, 15)
Transaction.new(buyer, seller, product, 20)
Transaction.new(buyer, seller, product, 25)

If that doesn''t help you, spend some time here:
http://www.mises.org/

Before I go, many thanks to the Dave''s for a fine product.  I await
your decision on 1.1, and will decide then whether the value of what
you offer exceeds the price you charge.
> Alain
>
> _______________________________________________
> Rails mailing list
> Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org
> http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
>

--
Bill Guindon (aka aGorilla)
The best answer to most questions is "it depends".

On Mar 5, 2006, at 11:55 AM, Bill Walton wrote:
> [BW]  This thread has gotten me wondering if it might not be worth
> reconsidering the old notion of keeping documentation in 3-ring  
> binders.  It
> handled document updates pretty easily; "replace pages x-y with  
> these."
> Also made it pretty easy, for anyone who was interested, to see  
> exactly what
> was being changed.  Just a thought.

Funny you should say that.  We''ve been wanting to do this, but  
fulfillment seems to be a major issue.  I have been wondering about a  
"print it yourself" model, but that assumes that pages get written or
updated serially. We find that with the beta books, updates happen  
all over the place.

But this is definitely a topic I want to explore.


Dave

I remember reading somewhere that you have your authors use some sort of XML
markup that you then turn into a PDF (presumably via XSL:FO).  If this is
the case there are a variety of tools to do differencing against XML,
perhaps a simple XSL transform could be developed to highlight changes and
strike-through deletions?

3-ring binders give me the kind of chill usually reserved for "that code
has
been backed up to micro-fiche".  *brrrrrr*

-Steve
http://www.stevelongdo.com

On 3/5/06, Dave Thomas <dave@pragprog.com> wrote:
>
>
> On Mar 5, 2006, at 11:55 AM, Bill Walton wrote:
>
> > [BW]  This thread has gotten me wondering if it might not be worth
> > reconsidering the old notion of keeping documentation in 3-ring
> > binders.  It
> > handled document updates pretty easily; "replace pages x-y with
> > these."
> > Also made it pretty easy, for anyone who was interested, to see
> > exactly what
> > was being changed.  Just a thought.
>
>
> Funny you should say that.  We''ve been wanting to do this, but
> fulfillment seems to be a major issue.  I have been wondering about a
> "print it yourself" model, but that assumes that pages get
written or
> updated serially. We find that with the beta books, updates happen
> all over the place.
>
> But this is definitely a topic I want to explore.
>
>
> Dave
> _______________________________________________
> Rails mailing list
> Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org
> http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
>
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+1

On 3/5/06, Adam Fields <rails23049809@aquick.org>
wrote:
>
> On Sun, Mar 05, 2006 at 11:52:27AM -0600, Dave Thomas wrote:
> [...]
> > For me, the PDF was never intended to be printed (and I''m
surprised
> > to hear folks talking about doing that). It''s normally
cheaper to buy
> > the bound book than buy a PDF and print it.
>
> While I don''t often print the whole thing of the pdfs I buy, it is
> very useful to print out specific reference pages, if I''m often
going
> back to a specific page, or want to mark something up with notes.
>
> > But, that raises an interesting question. Would folks be interested
> > in a more easily printed version of the PDF (no borders, black and
> > white, no hyperlinks, etc)?
>
> Yes. (Color''s fine though, but it should degrade gracefully for
those
> without color printers.) I often print 2-up and double sided, so extra
> margins and borders just mean that much less space for the text.
>
> Also - I often take pdfs and convert them to palm format for reading
> on the train, so tagging for that would be helpful.
>
> --
>                                 - Adam
>
> ** Expert Technical Project and Business Management
> **** System Performance Analysis and Architecture
> ****** [ http://www.adamfields.com ]
>
> [ http://www.aquick.org/blog ] ............ Blog
> [ http://www.adamfields.com/resume.html ].. Experience
> [ http://www.flickr.com/photos/fields ] ... Photos
> [ http://www.aquicki.com/wiki ].............Wiki
> _______________________________________________
> Rails mailing list
> Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org
> http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
>


--
Best Regards,
-Larry
"Work, work, work...there is no satisfactory alternative."
            --- E.Taft Benson
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On Mar 5, 2006, at 10:55 PM, Steve Longdo wrote:
> I remember reading somewhere that you have your authors use some  
> sort of XML markup that you then turn into a PDF (presumably via  
> XSL:FO).  If this is the case there are a variety of tools to do  
> differencing against XML, perhaps a simple XSL transform could be  
> developed to highlight changes and strike-through deletions?

I''ve played with these, but they tend to make the pages look like  
Edward Scissorhands was reading them. I''m really bad this way:
I''ll
tweak wording as I''m skimming through, leaving lots of small "add
this" "delete that" kind of deltas.

I''ve _tried_ keeping a decent Changelog in the past, but
that''s hard
to do when I''m in full flow.

Somewhere out there there''s a decent answer, and I''m
a-waiting''


Dave

On Behalf Of Dave Thomas:

#Somewhere out there there''s a decent answer, and I''m
a-waiting''

This may not be decent, but i see more and more people clamoring for uptodate
manuals/books/docs on rails. I think it is a very good (if not great) sign that
rails (and the rails community) is exploding in growth.

what i''m trying to get into is: I think it is high time that we have a
Rails magazine or journal of some sort. Not too expensive yet very handy, very
updated...

kind regards -botp

#Dave

Ryan Ripley wrote:
> The point of the ebook is get the developer into the Ruby on Rails 
> world. At some point you are going to have to jump into the source 
> and continue to learn how to use this wonderful framework.  If you
I''m very much hoping for this to be your opinion only...
> are looking for someone to show you step by step how to write your 
> rails app then you are looking for a unicorn.  However, if you are
... because some of us might just not be as bright and intelligent
as some others, or just not have all the time in the world.
> looking to get a good head start at learning this framework, then 
> buy the book!  Catch up on the new features at
Sorry. But when I shell out for a book that has "for intermediate to
expert" printed on its back, I expect to be able to use the information
contained in that book professionally. That is, to be able and build
a good and solid Rails app in this particular cause.

Fortunately, with the Agile Book I do get that feeling. Just not for
the 1.1 features, which is okay -- since the book never promised me
to teach me on them.
> the www.rubyonrails.com and this mailing list.  I guess my points are 1.
> The book gets you moving in a direction.  2.  You will have to dig and 
> learn things on your own to keep momentum going...
Sorry, but that sounds too elitist for stupid little me not to feel
offended by it. Hopefully we''ll not start hating each other because of
that, I just felt a real urge to discuss the matter.
> Thanks for the book Dave, you helped me to enjoy programming again.
Second that!

Best regards,
Raphael Schmid

-- 
Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.

Actually, better than a magazine would be a good set of annotated
documentation hosted at the main site (rubyonrails.org).  That was a strong
driving force in the PHP community, and I think it would go a long way
toward helping newbies on rails.  railsmanual.org is okay, but it lacks a
"getting started" section.  All you have is an alphabetical listing of
method and class names, without dividing them into common categories or
tags, and you don''t have anything for a beginner getting started in
rails.
It would be great to have those additions to the current manual.  That would
make it a truly valuable research.
>This may not be decent, but i see more and more people clamoring for
uptodate
>manuals/books/docs on rails. I think it is a very good (if not great) sign
that rails
>(and the rails community) is exploding in growth.
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Oops, meant to say "research tool."

On 3/6/06, Carl Youngblood <carl@youngbloods.org>
wrote:
>
> Actually, better than a magazine would be a good set of annotated
> documentation hosted at the main site (rubyonrails.org).  That was a
> strong driving force in the PHP community, and I think it would go a long
> way toward helping newbies on rails.  railsmanual.org is okay, but it
> lacks a "getting started" section.  All you have is an
alphabetical listing
> of method and class names, without dividing them into common categories or
> tags, and you don''t have anything for a beginner getting started
in rails.
> It would be great to have those additions to the current manual.  That
would
> make it a truly valuable research.
>
>
> >This may not be decent, but i see more and more people clamoring for
> uptodate
> >manuals/books/docs on rails. I think it is a very good (if not great)
> sign that rails
> >(and the rails community) is exploding in growth.
>
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I agree here.  I''ve wanted this for a while now.

Michael

I''m loathe to mention this, on this particular mailing list, but Oracle
actually provides some interesting XML differencing tools inside of their
(XDK) since 9iR2.  I have used these in a *shiver* Java context, but there
is a C/C++ API.  Maybe someone out there would be willing to take on the
Ruby bindings for it?

Seems like the Johnny Depp action could be kept to a minimum if you could do
differencing based on a time period.  Show Chapter One from
one.month.ago.to.now?  Either that or some sort of threshold
''###'' number of
characters have changed on this page, showDiff().  Exclusions for code
citation blocks which should always show every change down to the single
character...  Sorry no answer, but more requirements for a solution.  So
while not a ''helpful'' email, still helpful ;-)

On 3/5/06, Dave Thomas <dave@pragprog.com> wrote:
>
>
> On Mar 5, 2006, at 10:55 PM, Steve Longdo wrote:
>
> > I remember reading somewhere that you have your authors use some
> > sort of XML markup that you then turn into a PDF (presumably via
> > XSL:FO).  If this is the case there are a variety of tools to do
> > differencing against XML, perhaps a simple XSL transform could be
> > developed to highlight changes and strike-through deletions?
>
>
> I''ve played with these, but they tend to make the pages look like
> Edward Scissorhands was reading them. I''m really bad this way:
I''ll
> tweak wording as I''m skimming through, leaving lots of small
"add
> this" "delete that" kind of deltas.
>
> I''ve _tried_ keeping a decent Changelog in the past, but
that''s hard
> to do when I''m in full flow.
>
> Somewhere out there there''s a decent answer, and I''m
a-waiting''
>
>
> Dave
> _______________________________________________
> Rails mailing list
> Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org
> http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
>
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On 3/6/06, Carl Youngblood <carl@youngbloods.org>
wrote:
> Actually, better than a magazine would be a good set of annotated
> documentation hosted at the main site (rubyonrails.org).  That was a strong
> driving force in the PHP community, and I think it would go a long way
> toward helping newbies on rails.  railsmanual.org is okay, but it lacks a
> "getting started" section.  All you have is an alphabetical
listing of
> method and class names, without dividing them into common categories or
> tags, and you don''t have anything for a beginner getting started
in rails.
> It would be great to have those additions to the current manual.  That
would
> make it a truly valuable research.  (research tool that is)
railsn00b.org!

realistically, though, couldn''t you fulfill the goals of a Rails
magazine with a blog?


Giles

Giles Bowkett wrote:
> On 3/6/06, Carl Youngblood <carl@youngbloods.org> wrote:
>> Actually, better than a magazine would be a good set of annotated
>> documentation hosted at the main site (rubyonrails.org). 
> realistically, though, couldn''t you fulfill the goals of a Rails
> magazine with a blog?
> 
Or a wiki? http://wiki.rubyonrails.org/rails

John


-- 
Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.

*gasp*!!!

On 3/6/06, John Colby <john.colby@uce.ac.uk>
wrote:
> Giles Bowkett wrote:
> > On 3/6/06, Carl Youngblood <carl@youngbloods.org> wrote:
> >> Actually, better than a magazine would be a good set of annotated
> >> documentation hosted at the main site (rubyonrails.org).
>
> > realistically, though, couldn''t you fulfill the goals of a
Rails
> > magazine with a blog?
> >
>
> Or a wiki? http://wiki.rubyonrails.org/rails
>
> John
>
>
> --
> Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.
> _______________________________________________
> Rails mailing list
> Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org
> http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
>

--
Giles Goat Boy

http://gilesmakesmusic.blogspot.com
http://gileswritescode.blogspot.com

Raphael,

I was just giving an opinion.

I don''t think that it is elitist to say that some self-learning and
effort
is required to become proficient with Ruby on Rails.  I also think that if 
you do not have the time to dig into the source then you probably should not 
be betting your next meal on a programming career...

If you are looking to play around with a fun framework as a side hobby, then 
all the best to you!  The agile book should help you right along with 
this...

Finally, there isnt a book in the world that will make you an expert at 
rails... You have to work for it.

I don''t hate you, I don''t even know you!

Good luck with your rails apps.

--Ryan
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Raphael Schmid" <raphael@schwarzschmid.de>
To: <rails@lists.rubyonrails.org>
Sent: Monday, March 06, 2006 9:55 AM
Subject: [Rails] Re: Re: Re: Agile Web Development with Rails 1.1

> Ryan Ripley wrote:
>
>> The point of the ebook is get the developer into the Ruby on Rails
>> world. At some point you are going to have to jump into the source
>> and continue to learn how to use this wonderful framework.  If you
>
> I''m very much hoping for this to be your opinion only...
>
>> are looking for someone to show you step by step how to write your
>> rails app then you are looking for a unicorn.  However, if you are
>
> ... because some of us might just not be as bright and intelligent
> as some others, or just not have all the time in the world.
>
>> looking to get a good head start at learning this framework, then
>> buy the book!  Catch up on the new features at
>
> Sorry. But when I shell out for a book that has "for intermediate to
> expert" printed on its back, I expect to be able to use the
information
> contained in that book professionally. That is, to be able and build
> a good and solid Rails app in this particular cause.
>
> Fortunately, with the Agile Book I do get that feeling. Just not for
> the 1.1 features, which is okay -- since the book never promised me
> to teach me on them.
>
>> the www.rubyonrails.com and this mailing list.  I guess my points are
1.
>> The book gets you moving in a direction.  2.  You will have to dig and
>> learn things on your own to keep momentum going...
>
> Sorry, but that sounds too elitist for stupid little me not to feel
> offended by it. Hopefully we''ll not start hating each other
because of
> that, I just felt a real urge to discuss the matter.
>
>> Thanks for the book Dave, you helped me to enjoy programming again.
>
> Second that!
>
> Best regards,
> Raphael Schmid
>
> -- 
> Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.
> _______________________________________________
> Rails mailing list
> Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org
> http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
>

Dave Thomas wrote:
> But, that raises an interesting question. Would folks be interested in a 
> more easily printed version of the PDF (no borders, black and white, no 
> hyperlinks, etc)?
PDF''s good already. If I might suggest, code should be highlighted with
TextMate [Version 1.5 (906)] Default Highlight.

-- 
sig "kind regards" :name => " Arie Kusuma Atmaja ",
:callme => " Arie ",
:ym => " riyari3 ", :email => " ariekusumaatmaja@gmail.com
".chop!,
:dotmac => " ariekusumaatmaja ", :blog => "
http://ariekusumaatmaja.wordpress.com ".chop, :pasrubylangage => %Q#
Learn & Enjoy English Together: http://indoforums.com/englishklab #

Besoin d''apprendre beaucoup plus.. deutsch, dutch, italie..
wind lang (donc etre solomon)

I wouldn''t want to lose the wonderful hypelinks, just to improve
printability.
-Larry

On 3/22/06, Arie Kusuma Atmaja <ariekusumaatmaja@gmail.com>
wrote:
>
> Dave Thomas wrote:
> > But, that raises an interesting question. Would folks be interested in
a
> > more easily printed version of the PDF (no borders, black and white,
no
> > hyperlinks, etc)?
>
> PDF''s good already. If I might suggest, code should be highlighted
with
> TextMate [Version 1.5 (906)] Default Highlight.
>
> --
> sig "kind regards" :name => " Arie Kusuma Atmaja ",
:callme => " Arie ",
> :ym => " riyari3 ", :email => "
ariekusumaatmaja@gmail.com ".chop!,
> :dotmac => " ariekusumaatmaja ", :blog => "
> http://ariekusumaatmaja.wordpress.com ".chop, :pasrubylangage =>
%Q#
> Learn & Enjoy English Together: http://indoforums.com/englishklab #
>
> Besoin d''apprendre beaucoup plus.. deutsch, dutch, italie..
> wind lang (donc etre solomon)
>
> _______________________________________________
> Rails mailing list
> Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org
> http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
>


--
Best Regards,
-Larry
"Work, work, work...there is no satisfactory alternative."
            --- E.Taft Benson
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First of all, I love the value of buying the PDF+Paper, especially the beta
books that give me a head-start on what''s coming up. Its absolutely
worth
the cost - there is no questioning the value in my mind. Best of both
worlds.

Secondly, I also welcome a 1.1 refresh of the PDF and book - I''ll be
first
in line for that.

Thirdly, I prefer the PDFs to be in full color. I view them on the screen
where the color is valuable, and I usually print to color laser printers at
work, so even when printing out the color keeps the code much more readable.

 - Brian

On 3/5/06, Dave Thomas <dave@pragprog.com> wrote:
>
>
> On Mar 5, 2006, at 5:11 AM, Alain Ravet wrote:
>
> > You have to print (and bind?) your pdf yourself.
>
> For me, the PDF was never intended to be printed (and I''m
surprised
> to hear folks talking about doing that). It''s normally cheaper to
buy
> the bound book than buy a PDF and print it.
>
> But, that raises an interesting question. Would folks be interested
> in a more easily printed version of the PDF (no borders, black and
> white, no hyperlinks, etc)?
>
>
> > With pdf, we gain a little (early access), but the seller gains a
> > lot (early sell, no printing, no shipping, no return).
> > It''s not win-win, it win-WINWINWIN.
>
> I think you''re discounting the real cost of creating a book. But,
> clearly, if you feel the PDFs don''t give you value, I''d
recommend not
> buying them.
>
>
>
> Dave
>
> _______________________________________________
> Rails mailing list
> Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org
> http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
>
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