Rails - May 2006 - [ADV] Second Edition of Agile Web Development with Rails

ANNOUNCING AGILE WEB DEVELOPMENT WITH RAILS, SECOND EDITION
==========================================================
http://www.pragmaticprogrammer.com/titles/rails2/


Rails has changed a lot since we announced the first edition of the
book a year ago. DHH says that the 1.1 release "boasts more than 500
fixes, tweaks, and features from more than 100 contributors." Who
are we to disagree?

To celebrate the release of Rails 1.1, we''re delighted to announce
the second edition of Agile Web Development with Rails. This is a
major update to the original, and we''re releasing it as a beta book.

So far, we''ve rewritten the Depot application chapters.  They now
illustrate new Rails features such as RJS templates for Ajax support
and "has_many :through". We''ve lost the SQL in favor of
migrations,
and even include an rxml example, so we can show off RESTful
interfaces and "respond_to." It uses the new rake tasks, keeps its
sessions in the database, and generally tries to follow all the
latest Rails programming recommendations (including dropping things
that are likely to become deprecated over time). The testing chapter
supports transactional fixtures, shows new features, and illustrates
the new integration testing framework.

Over the coming months, we''ll be updating the rest of the book.  The
Rails core chapters will be revamped to show all the changes to
ActiveRecord, ActionController, and ActionView. The Web2.0 chapter
will be rewritten to illustrate RJS; and the deployment chapter
rewritten to use Capistrano and to show how to set Rails up in
production. All in all, the book will be significantly updated to
illustrate all we''ve learned about writing Rails applications in the
last year.

All this represents a bunch of totally new content---entirely new
chapters and largely rewritten old ones.

Today, we''re releasing this new edition as a beta book. As with all
our beta books, you''ll be able to download updates as we add new
content, and then, after we complete the book, continue to download
changes to this second edition. We anticipate that the book will be
finished in the fall, at which point the paper copies will ship.

However, we''re doing this beta book slightly differently to our
other ones. Rather than releasing just the new content as it becomes
available, we''re instead releasing a hybrid that mixes the new
content with that of the original, first edition. That way you''ll be
able to use the beta book as a complete reference that gets updated
over time. Each chapter is color coded: ones with a gray header are
from the first edition, while those from the second have a red
header.

 From May 2nd onwards, if you buy the AWDwR PDF, you''ll be getting
the beta book version. If you want the paper book, you''ll have the
choice of buying the first edition now or buying the second edition
that will ship when it''s ready.

If you bought a first edition PDF from us on or after April 1st,
2006 (order numbers 27140 and above), you qualify for a free upgrade
to the beta book. We''ll be sending you instructions by email over
the next few days. (If you have a spam blocker, we suggest
whitelisting pragprog.com and pragmaticprogrammer.com--you''d be
amazed how often our PDF download e-mails get bounced.)

Visit the book''s page at http://pragmaticprogrammer.com/titles/rails2
to see samples from the new chapters and check out the changes for
yourself. Be sure to visit the "in-place upgrade" link to see how the
process works.

We''re really excited to be able to offer the most up-to-date
information on the amazing Rails framework. If you''re a Rails
developer, we think you''ll find this book an invaluable companion.


Regards



Dave Thomas

Great news!

I''ll be ordering a new copy today.

Thanks, Dave!

-- 
-- Tom Mornini


On May 2, 2006, at 9:35 AM, Dave Thomas wrote:
> ANNOUNCING AGILE WEB DEVELOPMENT WITH RAILS, SECOND EDITION
> ==========================================================>
> http://www.pragmaticprogrammer.com/titles/rails2/
>
>
> Rails has changed a lot since we announced the first edition of the
> book a year ago. DHH says that the 1.1 release "boasts more than 500
> fixes, tweaks, and features from more than 100 contributors." Who
> are we to disagree?
>
> To celebrate the release of Rails 1.1, we''re delighted to announce
> the second edition of Agile Web Development with Rails. This is a
> major update to the original, and we''re releasing it as a beta
book.
>
> So far, we''ve rewritten the Depot application chapters.  They now
> illustrate new Rails features such as RJS templates for Ajax support
> and "has_many :through". We''ve lost the SQL in favor of
migrations,
> and even include an rxml example, so we can show off RESTful
> interfaces and "respond_to." It uses the new rake tasks, keeps
its
> sessions in the database, and generally tries to follow all the
> latest Rails programming recommendations (including dropping things
> that are likely to become deprecated over time). The testing chapter
> supports transactional fixtures, shows new features, and illustrates
> the new integration testing framework.
>
> Over the coming months, we''ll be updating the rest of the book. 
The
> Rails core chapters will be revamped to show all the changes to
> ActiveRecord, ActionController, and ActionView. The Web2.0 chapter
> will be rewritten to illustrate RJS; and the deployment chapter
> rewritten to use Capistrano and to show how to set Rails up in
> production. All in all, the book will be significantly updated to
> illustrate all we''ve learned about writing Rails applications in
the
> last year.
>
> All this represents a bunch of totally new content---entirely new
> chapters and largely rewritten old ones.
>
> Today, we''re releasing this new edition as a beta book. As with
all
> our beta books, you''ll be able to download updates as we add new
> content, and then, after we complete the book, continue to download
> changes to this second edition. We anticipate that the book will be
> finished in the fall, at which point the paper copies will ship.
>
> However, we''re doing this beta book slightly differently to our
> other ones. Rather than releasing just the new content as it becomes
> available, we''re instead releasing a hybrid that mixes the new
> content with that of the original, first edition. That way you''ll
be
> able to use the beta book as a complete reference that gets updated
> over time. Each chapter is color coded: ones with a gray header are
> from the first edition, while those from the second have a red
> header.
>
> From May 2nd onwards, if you buy the AWDwR PDF, you''ll be getting
> the beta book version. If you want the paper book, you''ll have the
> choice of buying the first edition now or buying the second edition
> that will ship when it''s ready.
>
> If you bought a first edition PDF from us on or after April 1st,
> 2006 (order numbers 27140 and above), you qualify for a free upgrade
> to the beta book. We''ll be sending you instructions by email over
> the next few days. (If you have a spam blocker, we suggest
> whitelisting pragprog.com and pragmaticprogrammer.com--you''d be
> amazed how often our PDF download e-mails get bounced.)
>
> Visit the book''s page at
http://pragmaticprogrammer.com/titles/rails2
> to see samples from the new chapters and check out the changes for
> yourself. Be sure to visit the "in-place upgrade" link to see how
the
> process works.
>
> We''re really excited to be able to offer the most up-to-date
> information on the amazing Rails framework. If you''re a Rails
> developer, we think you''ll find this book an invaluable companion.
>
>
> Regards
>
>
>
> Dave Thomas
>
> _______________________________________________
> Rails mailing list
> Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org
> http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails

That''s great news, but I do think there should be a discount for those 
who have already bought the first edition in book form.

Dave Thomas wrote:
> ANNOUNCING AGILE WEB DEVELOPMENT WITH RAILS, SECOND EDITION
> ==========================================================>
> http://www.pragmaticprogrammer.com/titles/rails2/
>
>
> Rails has changed a lot since we announced the first edition of the
> book a year ago. DHH says that the 1.1 release "boasts more than 500
> fixes, tweaks, and features from more than 100 contributors." Who
> are we to disagree?
>
> To celebrate the release of Rails 1.1, we''re delighted to announce
> the second edition of Agile Web Development with Rails. This is a
> major update to the original, and we''re releasing it as a beta
book.
>
> So far, we''ve rewritten the Depot application chapters.  They now
> illustrate new Rails features such as RJS templates for Ajax support
> and "has_many :through". We''ve lost the SQL in favor of
migrations,
> and even include an rxml example, so we can show off RESTful
> interfaces and "respond_to." It uses the new rake tasks, keeps
its
> sessions in the database, and generally tries to follow all the
> latest Rails programming recommendations (including dropping things
> that are likely to become deprecated over time). The testing chapter
> supports transactional fixtures, shows new features, and illustrates
> the new integration testing framework.
>
> Over the coming months, we''ll be updating the rest of the book. 
The
> Rails core chapters will be revamped to show all the changes to
> ActiveRecord, ActionController, and ActionView. The Web2.0 chapter
> will be rewritten to illustrate RJS; and the deployment chapter
> rewritten to use Capistrano and to show how to set Rails up in
> production. All in all, the book will be significantly updated to
> illustrate all we''ve learned about writing Rails applications in
the
> last year.
>
> All this represents a bunch of totally new content---entirely new
> chapters and largely rewritten old ones.
>
> Today, we''re releasing this new edition as a beta book. As with
all
> our beta books, you''ll be able to download updates as we add new
> content, and then, after we complete the book, continue to download
> changes to this second edition. We anticipate that the book will be
> finished in the fall, at which point the paper copies will ship.
>
> However, we''re doing this beta book slightly differently to our
> other ones. Rather than releasing just the new content as it becomes
> available, we''re instead releasing a hybrid that mixes the new
> content with that of the original, first edition. That way you''ll
be
> able to use the beta book as a complete reference that gets updated
> over time. Each chapter is color coded: ones with a gray header are
> from the first edition, while those from the second have a red
> header.
>
> From May 2nd onwards, if you buy the AWDwR PDF, you''ll be getting
> the beta book version. If you want the paper book, you''ll have the
> choice of buying the first edition now or buying the second edition
> that will ship when it''s ready.
>
> If you bought a first edition PDF from us on or after April 1st,
> 2006 (order numbers 27140 and above), you qualify for a free upgrade
> to the beta book. We''ll be sending you instructions by email over
> the next few days. (If you have a spam blocker, we suggest
> whitelisting pragprog.com and pragmaticprogrammer.com--you''d be
> amazed how often our PDF download e-mails get bounced.)
>
> Visit the book''s page at
http://pragmaticprogrammer.com/titles/rails2
> to see samples from the new chapters and check out the changes for
> yourself. Be sure to visit the "in-place upgrade" link to see how
the
> process works.
>
> We''re really excited to be able to offer the most up-to-date
> information on the amazing Rails framework. If you''re a Rails
> developer, we think you''ll find this book an invaluable companion.
>
>
> Regards
>
>
>
> Dave Thomas
>
> _______________________________________________
> Rails mailing list
> Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org
> http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
>

This is very good news.

Can I voice a request?

In "Getting Real," the 37Signals guys advocate that you code the
interface first.

In my personal copy of "Agile Web Development with Rails," I scrawled
a note to that effect -- something like "start here!! design from
templates!!!" -- in the chapter on Active View. This was before I ever
saw "Getting Real."

I can''t remember how I figured it out.

I do remember it took a lot of thinking.

I''ve been making web apps for about a decade. For some reason, I
don''t
even remember how, I pulled that insight out of the design, and saw it
validated later in "Getting Real."

A lot of people who are getting into Rails haven''t been making web
apps for a decade, and a lot of people won''t read "Getting
Real."
(Everybody should, but not everybody will.)

Consequently you can look at me figuring this out and realize that a
lot of other people won''t necessarily have the same insight.

The framework was developed in the context of design-first coding, and
consequently is very well-suited to design-first coding. I think if
you encourage newbies to use a design-first approach, it''ll soften the
learning curve for them, and I also think that if you encourage
experts to use a design-first approach, they''ll produce better work.

My request is that you re-order the chapters, placing the chapter on
Active View first, the chapter on Active Controller second, and the
chapter on Active Record last.

--
Giles Bowkett
http://www.gilesgoatboy.org

On 5/2/06, Tom Mornini <tmornini@infomania.com>
wrote:
> Great news!
>
> I''ll be ordering a new copy today.
>
> Thanks, Dave!
>
> --
> -- Tom Mornini
>
>
> On May 2, 2006, at 9:35 AM, Dave Thomas wrote:
>
> > ANNOUNCING AGILE WEB DEVELOPMENT WITH RAILS, SECOND EDITION
> > ==========================================================> >
> > http://www.pragmaticprogrammer.com/titles/rails2/
> >
> >
> > Rails has changed a lot since we announced the first edition of the
> > book a year ago. DHH says that the 1.1 release "boasts more than
500
> > fixes, tweaks, and features from more than 100 contributors." Who
> > are we to disagree?
> >
> > To celebrate the release of Rails 1.1, we''re delighted to
announce
> > the second edition of Agile Web Development with Rails. This is a
> > major update to the original, and we''re releasing it as a
beta book.
> >
> > So far, we''ve rewritten the Depot application chapters.  They
now
> > illustrate new Rails features such as RJS templates for Ajax support
> > and "has_many :through". We''ve lost the SQL in
favor of migrations,
> > and even include an rxml example, so we can show off RESTful
> > interfaces and "respond_to." It uses the new rake tasks,
keeps its
> > sessions in the database, and generally tries to follow all the
> > latest Rails programming recommendations (including dropping things
> > that are likely to become deprecated over time). The testing chapter
> > supports transactional fixtures, shows new features, and illustrates
> > the new integration testing framework.
> >
> > Over the coming months, we''ll be updating the rest of the
book.  The
> > Rails core chapters will be revamped to show all the changes to
> > ActiveRecord, ActionController, and ActionView. The Web2.0 chapter
> > will be rewritten to illustrate RJS; and the deployment chapter
> > rewritten to use Capistrano and to show how to set Rails up in
> > production. All in all, the book will be significantly updated to
> > illustrate all we''ve learned about writing Rails applications
in the
> > last year.
> >
> > All this represents a bunch of totally new content---entirely new
> > chapters and largely rewritten old ones.
> >
> > Today, we''re releasing this new edition as a beta book. As
with all
> > our beta books, you''ll be able to download updates as we add
new
> > content, and then, after we complete the book, continue to download
> > changes to this second edition. We anticipate that the book will be
> > finished in the fall, at which point the paper copies will ship.
> >
> > However, we''re doing this beta book slightly differently to
our
> > other ones. Rather than releasing just the new content as it becomes
> > available, we''re instead releasing a hybrid that mixes the
new
> > content with that of the original, first edition. That way
you''ll be
> > able to use the beta book as a complete reference that gets updated
> > over time. Each chapter is color coded: ones with a gray header are
> > from the first edition, while those from the second have a red
> > header.
> >
> > From May 2nd onwards, if you buy the AWDwR PDF, you''ll be
getting
> > the beta book version. If you want the paper book, you''ll
have the
> > choice of buying the first edition now or buying the second edition
> > that will ship when it''s ready.
> >
> > If you bought a first edition PDF from us on or after April 1st,
> > 2006 (order numbers 27140 and above), you qualify for a free upgrade
> > to the beta book. We''ll be sending you instructions by email
over
> > the next few days. (If you have a spam blocker, we suggest
> > whitelisting pragprog.com and pragmaticprogrammer.com--you''d
be
> > amazed how often our PDF download e-mails get bounced.)
> >
> > Visit the book''s page at
http://pragmaticprogrammer.com/titles/rails2
> > to see samples from the new chapters and check out the changes for
> > yourself. Be sure to visit the "in-place upgrade" link to
see how the
> > process works.
> >
> > We''re really excited to be able to offer the most up-to-date
> > information on the amazing Rails framework. If you''re a Rails
> > developer, we think you''ll find this book an invaluable
companion.
> >
> >
> > Regards
> >
> >
> >
> > Dave Thomas
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Rails mailing list
> > Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org
> > http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
>
> _______________________________________________
> Rails mailing list
> Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org
> http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
>

I''m new to the list and ruby/rails and going through Agile Web  
Development with Rails
Forgive me if this is the wrong place to ask, but I can''t seem to get  
past an error in the development of Depot with my add_to_cart method.
I''m getting  the error "undefined local variable or method  
''product_id'' for #<Cart......."

I''ve compared to the provided source code and I have everything  
correct as far as I can tell.
Can someone point me in the right direction to solve this?

Thanks!

-Jim

Hey Jim, you should reference the errata for the section that section of the
book.  Thus, you can find the errata in the following location:

http://books.pragprog.com/titles/rails2/errata

Peace,

-Conrad

On 5/2/06, Jim Gay <jim@saturnflyer.com> wrote:
>
> I''m new to the list and ruby/rails and going through Agile Web
> Development with Rails
> Forgive me if this is the wrong place to ask, but I can''t seem to
get
> past an error in the development of Depot with my add_to_cart method.
> I''m getting  the error "undefined local variable or method
> ''product_id'' for #<Cart......."
>
> I''ve compared to the provided source code and I have everything
> correct as far as I can tell.
> Can someone point me in the right direction to solve this?
>
> Thanks!
>
> -Jim
>
> _______________________________________________
> Rails mailing list
> Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org
> http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
>
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On May 2, 2006, at 1:41 PM, Conrad Taylor wrote:
> Hey Jim, you should reference the errata for the section that  
> section of the book.  Thus, you can find the errata in the  
> following location:
>
> http://books.pragprog.com/titles/rails2/errata

If it''s the second edition, or

> http://books.pragprog.com/titles/rails/errata
for the first.

Dave
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Try restarting your rails server. I vaguely remember running into a problem
like this myself and I think a restart fixed it. I believe it had something
to do with the server holding onto a cached model of the Cart class after I
had made some changes to it...or something like that.

-Brian

On 5/2/06, Jim Gay <jim@saturnflyer.com> wrote:
>
> I''m new to the list and ruby/rails and going through Agile Web
> Development with Rails
> Forgive me if this is the wrong place to ask, but I can''t seem to
get
> past an error in the development of Depot with my add_to_cart method.
> I''m getting  the error "undefined local variable or method
> ''product_id'' for #<Cart......."
>
> I''ve compared to the provided source code and I have everything
> correct as far as I can tell.
> Can someone point me in the right direction to solve this?
>
> Thanks!
>
> -Jim
>
> _______________________________________________
> Rails mailing list
> Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org
> http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
>
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My apologies. I should have mentioned that I''m using the first  
edition, and that the errata is a bit of a pain to search through.

I''ve tried restarting the server, clearing cookies, everything  
mentioned in the errata as far as I can tell.

I can add to the cart, but as soon as I add a second item (either of  
the same product id or new product id) I get an error.
I''ll gather my specific error and post that...

Thanks for the help!

On May 2, 2006, at 14:43, Dave Thomas wrote:
>
> On May 2, 2006, at 1:41 PM, Conrad Taylor wrote:
>
>> Hey Jim, you should reference the errata for the section that  
>> section of the book.  Thus, you can find the errata in the  
>> following location:
>>
>> http://books.pragprog.com/titles/rails2/errata
>
>
> If it''s the second edition, or
>
>
>> http://books.pragprog.com/titles/rails/errata
>
> for the first.
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I''ll second the request for a discount on the second edition for first
edition buyers (for those that bought from the pragmatic store, it would be
hard to track who bought the book from other sources).  Yes, the new edition
has substantial improvements, and I fully believe in supporting all the very
hard work that has gone into this, but I would have a hard time paying the
full price for the new book less than six months from when I purchased
it.....

On 5/2/06, Giles Bowkett <gilesb@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> This is very good news.
>
> Can I voice a request?
>
> In "Getting Real," the 37Signals guys advocate that you code the
> interface first.
>
> In my personal copy of "Agile Web Development with Rails," I
scrawled
> a note to that effect -- something like "start here!! design from
> templates!!!" -- in the chapter on Active View. This was before I ever
> saw "Getting Real."
>
> I can''t remember how I figured it out.
>
> I do remember it took a lot of thinking.
>
> I''ve been making web apps for about a decade. For some reason, I
don''t
> even remember how, I pulled that insight out of the design, and saw it
> validated later in "Getting Real."
>
> A lot of people who are getting into Rails haven''t been making web
> apps for a decade, and a lot of people won''t read "Getting
Real."
> (Everybody should, but not everybody will.)
>
> Consequently you can look at me figuring this out and realize that a
> lot of other people won''t necessarily have the same insight.
>
> The framework was developed in the context of design-first coding, and
> consequently is very well-suited to design-first coding. I think if
> you encourage newbies to use a design-first approach, it''ll soften
the
> learning curve for them, and I also think that if you encourage
> experts to use a design-first approach, they''ll produce better
work.
>
> My request is that you re-order the chapters, placing the chapter on
> Active View first, the chapter on Active Controller second, and the
> chapter on Active Record last.
>
> --
> Giles Bowkett
> http://www.gilesgoatboy.org
>
> On 5/2/06, Tom Mornini <tmornini@infomania.com> wrote:
> > Great news!
> >
> > I''ll be ordering a new copy today.
> >
> > Thanks, Dave!
> >
> > --
> > -- Tom Mornini
> >
> >
> > On May 2, 2006, at 9:35 AM, Dave Thomas wrote:
> >
> > > ANNOUNCING AGILE WEB DEVELOPMENT WITH RAILS, SECOND EDITION
> > > ==========================================================>
> >
> > > http://www.pragmaticprogrammer.com/titles/rails2/
> > >
> > >
> > > Rails has changed a lot since we announced the first edition of
the
> > > book a year ago. DHH says that the 1.1 release "boasts more
than 500
> > > fixes, tweaks, and features from more than 100
contributors." Who
> > > are we to disagree?
> > >
> > > To celebrate the release of Rails 1.1, we''re delighted
to announce
> > > the second edition of Agile Web Development with Rails. This is a
> > > major update to the original, and we''re releasing it as
a beta book.
> > >
> > > So far, we''ve rewritten the Depot application chapters. 
They now
> > > illustrate new Rails features such as RJS templates for Ajax
support
> > > and "has_many :through". We''ve lost the SQL in
favor of migrations,
> > > and even include an rxml example, so we can show off RESTful
> > > interfaces and "respond_to." It uses the new rake
tasks, keeps its
> > > sessions in the database, and generally tries to follow all the
> > > latest Rails programming recommendations (including dropping
things
> > > that are likely to become deprecated over time). The testing
chapter
> > > supports transactional fixtures, shows new features, and
illustrates
> > > the new integration testing framework.
> > >
> > > Over the coming months, we''ll be updating the rest of
the book.  The
> > > Rails core chapters will be revamped to show all the changes to
> > > ActiveRecord, ActionController, and ActionView. The Web2.0
chapter
> > > will be rewritten to illustrate RJS; and the deployment chapter
> > > rewritten to use Capistrano and to show how to set Rails up in
> > > production. All in all, the book will be significantly updated to
> > > illustrate all we''ve learned about writing Rails
applications in the
> > > last year.
> > >
> > > All this represents a bunch of totally new content---entirely new
> > > chapters and largely rewritten old ones.
> > >
> > > Today, we''re releasing this new edition as a beta book.
As with all
> > > our beta books, you''ll be able to download updates as we
add new
> > > content, and then, after we complete the book, continue to
download
> > > changes to this second edition. We anticipate that the book will
be
> > > finished in the fall, at which point the paper copies will ship.
> > >
> > > However, we''re doing this beta book slightly differently
to our
> > > other ones. Rather than releasing just the new content as it
becomes
> > > available, we''re instead releasing a hybrid that mixes
the new
> > > content with that of the original, first edition. That way
you''ll be
> > > able to use the beta book as a complete reference that gets
updated
> > > over time. Each chapter is color coded: ones with a gray header
are
> > > from the first edition, while those from the second have a red
> > > header.
> > >
> > > From May 2nd onwards, if you buy the AWDwR PDF, you''ll
be getting
> > > the beta book version. If you want the paper book,
you''ll have the
> > > choice of buying the first edition now or buying the second
edition
> > > that will ship when it''s ready.
> > >
> > > If you bought a first edition PDF from us on or after April 1st,
> > > 2006 (order numbers 27140 and above), you qualify for a free
upgrade
> > > to the beta book. We''ll be sending you instructions by
email over
> > > the next few days. (If you have a spam blocker, we suggest
> > > whitelisting pragprog.com and
pragmaticprogrammer.com--you''d be
> > > amazed how often our PDF download e-mails get bounced.)
> > >
> > > Visit the book''s page at
http://pragmaticprogrammer.com/titles/rails2
> > > to see samples from the new chapters and check out the changes
for
> > > yourself. Be sure to visit the "in-place upgrade" link
to see how the
> > > process works.
> > >
> > > We''re really excited to be able to offer the most
up-to-date
> > > information on the amazing Rails framework. If you''re a
Rails
> > > developer, we think you''ll find this book an invaluable
companion.
> > >
> > >
> > > Regards
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Dave Thomas
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Rails mailing list
> > > Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org
> > > http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Rails mailing list
> > Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org
> > http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Rails mailing list
> Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org
> http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
>
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On 5/2/06, Joseph Kowalski <joekowalski@gmail.com>
wrote:
>
> I''ll second the request for a discount on the second edition for
first
> edition buyers (for those that bought from the pragmatic store.....   I
> would have a hard time paying the full price for the new book less than six
> months from when I purchased it.....
>
> ditto.
I''d be much more likely to buy a different rails book than to pay full
price
for an update of this one - even though I was very pleased with the first
edition.
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On 5/2/06, Joseph Kowalski <joekowalski@gmail.com>
wrote:
> I''ll second the request for a discount on the second edition for
first
> edition buyers (for those that bought from the pragmatic store, it would be
> hard to track who bought the book from other sources).  Yes, the new
edition
> has substantial improvements, and I fully believe in supporting all the
very
> hard work that has gone into this, but I would have a hard time paying the
> full price for the new book less than six months from when I purchased
> it.....
I agree. Short of ripping the cover off my copy, which I purchased at
the local Barnes & Nobel, I don''t know how they''d give a
discount for
the first version.

I''ll probably just end up getting the PDF only, so as to not spend
another $50 or so on another copy. Just can''t curl up on the couch as
much...

On May 2, 2006, at 1:50 PM, Chris T wrote:
> That''s great news, but I do think there should be a discount for  
> those who have already bought the first edition in book form.
If I buy a car in 2006, I do not get a discount when the 2007 model  
comes out.  If I buy a regular TV, I do not get a discount when HD  
(or whatever) is the standard.  If I buy a 2GHz processor, I do not  
get a discount when the 4GHz comes out.  If I buy a 15" macbook pro,  
I do not get a discounted upgrade when the 17" comes out for the same  
price!  Ergo, I should not expect to get a discount when a new  
edition of a book comes out.  New happens, be grateful there *is* a  
second edition, and that Dave is busting his hump to keep the book up  
to date with the fast pace of Rails.  It''s $23, not the $2300 or  
$23000 we get shafted on every year on the afore mentioned products.

Everyone, bow your heads and pretend to be serious.

-s

On May 3, 2006, at 12:08 AM, Scott Barron wrote:
> If I buy a car in 2006, I do not get a discount when the 2007 model  
> comes out.  If I buy a regular TV, I do not get a discount when HD  
> (or whatever) is the standard.  If I buy a 2GHz processor, I do not  
> get a discount when the 4GHz comes out.  If I buy a 15" macbook  
> pro, I do not get a discounted upgrade when the 17" comes out for  
> the same price!  Ergo, I should not expect to get a discount when a  
> new edition of a book comes out.  New happens, be grateful there  
> *is* a second edition, and that Dave is busting his hump to keep  
> the book up to date with the fast pace of Rails.  It''s $23, not
the
> $2300 or $23000 we get shafted on every year on the afore mentioned  
> products.
Well said!

+1

-Brian

Hey, I second what Scott said.  Furthermore, I''m supporting the
efforts of the authors who are keeping this gem, ''Agile Web
Development with Rails'', up to date by purchasing it.  People on this
list say that there''s not enough documentation.  Guess what? 
Here''s
some documentation that happens to be in the form of a book.  What
would you do if this book wasn''t updated?  You would have to rely upon
getting all that valuable information from the internet.  I don''t know
about you but I like having a desk reference that I can refer to time
and time again.  When I go into a bookstore, I don''t see many books on
Ruby and/Rails but the few that I do see are simply execellent.  I
couldn''t and wouldn''t say that about the other languages as a
whole
eventhough they dominate the bookshelves.  In short, please support
the efforts of the authors if you can to make sure that we see
continued development of Ruby and Rails texts.

Peace,

-Conrad

On 5/2/06, Brian Hughes <brianvh@alum.dartmouth.org>
wrote:
> On May 3, 2006, at 12:08 AM, Scott Barron wrote:
> > If I buy a car in 2006, I do not get a discount when the 2007 model
> > comes out.  If I buy a regular TV, I do not get a discount when HD
> > (or whatever) is the standard.  If I buy a 2GHz processor, I do not
> > get a discount when the 4GHz comes out.  If I buy a 15" macbook
> > pro, I do not get a discounted upgrade when the 17" comes out for
> > the same price!  Ergo, I should not expect to get a discount when a
> > new edition of a book comes out.  New happens, be grateful there
> > *is* a second edition, and that Dave is busting his hump to keep
> > the book up to date with the fast pace of Rails.  It''s $23,
not the
> > $2300 or $23000 we get shafted on every year on the afore mentioned
> > products.
>
> Well said!
>
> +1
>
> -Brian
>
> _______________________________________________
> Rails mailing list
> Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org
> http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
>

Scott Barron wrote:
> On May 2, 2006, at 1:50 PM, Chris T wrote:
>> That''s great news, but I do think there should be a discount
for
>> those who have already bought the first edition in book form.
> 
> If I buy a car in 2006, I do not get a discount when the 2007 model  
> comes out.  If I buy a regular TV, I do not get a discount when HD  (or 
> whatever) is the standard.  If I buy a 2GHz processor, I do not  get a 
> discount when the 4GHz comes out.  If I buy a 15" macbook pro,  I do
not
> get a discounted upgrade when the 17" comes out for the same  price!  
> Ergo, I should not expect to get a discount when a new  edition of a 
> book comes out.  New happens, be grateful there *is* a  second edition,
In the case of the PDF version I don''t think they''re valid
analogies.
For a PDF book the cost of reproducing and delivering the goods is tiny
fraction of the development costs.  A better analogy would be software,
for which upgrade discounts are usually offered.
> and that Dave is busting his hump to keep the book up  to date with the 
> fast pace of Rails.  It''s $23, not the $2300 or  $23000 we get
shafted
> on every year on the afore mentioned products.
I found the First Edition great value for money.  It saved me a great
deal of time by bootstrapping my Ruby and Rails knowledge, and has
been a very useful reference to the framework.  However I would only
buy the full-priced PDF of the Second Edition in recognition of
this value I received from the First Edition.  I could not justify
it in relative terms for the new content, particularly now that I
can learn from rawer sources.

But you''re right -- $23 is not much in absolute terms. The update would
only have to save you a small amount of time before it payed for itself.

-- 
We develop, watch us RoR, in numbers too big to ignore.

On Wed, May 03, 2006 at 12:08:38AM -0400, Scott Barron wrote:
} 
} On May 2, 2006, at 1:50 PM, Chris T wrote:
} 
} >That''s great news, but I do think there should be a discount for
} >those who have already bought the first edition in book form.
} 
} If I buy a car in 2006, I do not get a discount when the 2007 model  
} comes out.

I was actually more convinced that the new edition was worth the full price
before you said that. As a matter of fact, many car companies offer
"loyalty" incentives where if you already own that make of car, you
get a
discount on your next one. Furthermore, almost every car dealership accepts
tradeins of previous models for a discount on your new car.

} If I buy a regular TV, I do not get a discount when HD  
} (or whatever) is the standard.  If I buy a 2GHz processor, I do not  
} get a discount when the 4GHz comes out.  If I buy a 15" macbook pro,  
} I do not get a discounted upgrade when the 17" comes out for the same  
} price!  Ergo, I should not expect to get a discount when a new  
} edition of a book comes out.

There''s a reasonable argument for both sides. It is ultimately up to
the
publishers. We''ll buy it, or not, based on our needs and its price.

} New happens, be grateful there *is* a  second edition, and that Dave is
} busting his hump to keep the book up  to date with the fast pace of
} Rails.  It''s $23, not the $2300 or  $23000 we get shafted on every
year
} on the afore mentioned products.
} 
} Everyone, bow your heads and pretend to be serious.

*snicker* yessir

} -s
--Greg

} _______________________________________________
} Rails mailing list
} Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org
} http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
}

> I was actually more convinced that the new edition was worth the  
> full price
> before you said that. As a matter of fact, many car companies offer
> "loyalty" incentives where if you already own that make of car,
you
> get a
> discount on your next one. Furthermore, almost every car dealership  
> accepts
> tradeins of previous models for a discount on your new car.
Actually, it''s not a discount.  The dealer buys your old car, and you  
use the proceeds to help pay for the new car.

How about this:  Sell your first edition on eBay, and use the  
proceeds (which, as in the case of a used car, will be depreciated)  
to help pay for the second edition.  There is definitely a market for  
used books ... just look for a poor college student!

-Derrick Spell

I''ve been surprised by the response to this announcement on both this
list and ruby-talk. As a professional having the best tools available
at my disposal is part of what allows me to deliver great value for my
customer. The information provided in Prag books easily saves me
countless hours of searching the net, reading docs and source, trial
and error, etc. If they didn''t, I wouldn''t buy them. I have
never
bought a Prag book that didn''t pay many returns in terms of my own
productivity and effectiveness and quite frankly these books would do
so at many times their price.

In the case of Rails, not only is the Prag book good--it is way out in
front. Other publishers are still working on getting their first ed.
in print (though some have PDFs available) and we''ve had the first
edition (in some form) over a year. That year was well worth the $50
and I expect the next to be as well.

I suspect that most on the list are of the same mind, but ''discount
''
is sort of an involuntary reaction that can be difficult to suppress,
but since I do not want my customers to respond to my work this way, I
think it worth suppressing when I am the customer.

Derrick Spell wrote:
>> I was actually more convinced that the new edition was worth the full 
>> price
>> before you said that. As a matter of fact, many car companies offer
>> "loyalty" incentives where if you already own that make of
car, you
>> get a
>> discount on your next one. Furthermore, almost every car dealership 
>> accepts
>> tradeins of previous models for a discount on your new car.
>
> Actually, it''s not a discount.  The dealer buys your old car, and
you
> use the proceeds to help pay for the new car.
>
> How about this:  Sell your first edition on eBay, and use the proceeds 
> (which, as in the case of a used car, will be depreciated) to help pay 
> for the second edition.  There is definitely a market for used books 
> ... just look for a poor college student!
>
> -Derrick Spell
> _______________________________________________
> Rails mailing list
> Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org
> http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
>
I agree the new car trade-in is not a discount, but the software analogy 
holds up. Also it''s not uncommon for companies to reward past
purchasers
with such a discount (call it a loyalty discount, or whatever) a) as a 
thank you, and b) because it gives the customer a warm fuzzy feeling and 
thus ties them emotionally to the company/brand (increasing likelihood 
of further purchases).

As for me, I''ll prob buy the PDF (as a prev poster said, $23 is not a 
huge amount in absolute terms, and the first edition was an excellent 
book), but prob won''t feel much of that warm fuzzy valued customer 
feeling when paying for it. Just my $0.02

I think this is more of a function of what some people have called  
''version fatigue''
When Rails changes drastically and quickly, its a good and bad thing.  
Likewise with the documentation. Its the same thing that makes people  
say "I''m not going to buy a new computer because it will be
obsolete
in 2 months"

I don''t see this as much of a problem, but if the next version comes  
out just as quickly, it wouldn''t be surprising at all if even more  
people are annoyed. Some people, like myself, are still learning this  
stuff, and personally I''m a bit frustrated that I need to get a new  
book (or PDF) to stay on top of the latest stuff.

I haven''t been complaining and asking for a discount, but it would be  
nice (although impossible to track my purchase). Still, I''m glad to  
see that the development community is so active that the  
documentation is being made so quickly.

On May 3, 2006, at 9:44, John-Mason P. Shackelford wrote:
> I''ve been surprised by the response to this announcement on both
this
> list and ruby-talk. As a professional having the best tools available
> at my disposal is part of what allows me to deliver great value for my
> customer. The information provided in Prag books easily saves me
> countless hours of searching the net, reading docs and source, trial
> and error, etc. If they didn''t, I wouldn''t buy them. I
have never
> bought a Prag book that didn''t pay many returns in terms of my own
> productivity and effectiveness and quite frankly these books would do
> so at many times their price.
>
> In the case of Rails, not only is the Prag book good--it is way out in
> front. Other publishers are still working on getting their first ed.
> in print (though some have PDFs available) and we''ve had the first
> edition (in some form) over a year. That year was well worth the $50
> and I expect the next to be as well.
>
> I suspect that most on the list are of the same mind, but
''discount ''
> is sort of an involuntary reaction that can be difficult to suppress,
> but since I do not want my customers to respond to my work this way, I
> think it worth suppressing when I am the customer.
> _______________________________________________
> Rails mailing list
> Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org
> http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails

The 1.0 edition had a coupon code for money off a copy of the pick axe book.
Many of the other pragmatic books have similar discounts in them.

Their website also has many discounts.

And remember that those auto dealers offer cash back and incentives on
the not so hot models. When the Mazda miata and the new beetle first
came out dealers were charging huge mark ups, and customers were
paying.

During the height of the SUV craze, a new Ford Explorer cost Ford, on
average, a little over $18,000 US. They average sales price was a
little over $36,000 US. Some discount huh?

Pragmatic books are not too expensive, don''t begrudge them a little
profit. I don''t think they are gouging when you look at the market.

They are a great value.

I walked into my grocery store yesterday and picked up some milk. I
got the strangest look from the cashier when I asked him if I could
get a discount on the milk since I bought some last week.

Yes, grocery stores are starting to track purchases of shoppers to
give them discounts on items, but you must realize that they rarely
lose money on those deals and that they are purely to incentivize you
to buy more. The book is a product... just like the milk. If you don''t
like the price buy someone else''s book. I doubt it will
"taste" as
good as this one.

On 5/3/06, Sean Lynch <sean.seanlynch@gmail.com>
wrote:
> The 1.0 edition had a coupon code for money off a copy of the pick axe
book.
> Many of the other pragmatic books have similar discounts in them.
>
> Their website also has many discounts.
>
> And remember that those auto dealers offer cash back and incentives on
> the not so hot models. When the Mazda miata and the new beetle first
> came out dealers were charging huge mark ups, and customers were
> paying.
>
> During the height of the SUV craze, a new Ford Explorer cost Ford, on
> average, a little over $18,000 US. They average sales price was a
> little over $36,000 US. Some discount huh?
>
> Pragmatic books are not too expensive, don''t begrudge them a
little
> profit. I don''t think they are gouging when you look at the
market.
>
> They are a great value.
> _______________________________________________
> Rails mailing list
> Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org
> http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
>

Wow - there are some really weird anologies appearing in the thread :0)

At the end of the day, if the second edition contains a lot of extra 
that you feel will be useful, you would be happy to buy the book again - 
if not - why would you bother?

I only bought the first edition about 3 weeks ago but it''s already 
helped me out more than any other programming book i''ve read.  If the 
2nd edition has a lot of useful stuff in it, i''ll probably get it.

However, i''m looking more forward to getting into Rails Recipes (when 
the delivery time on amazon comes down a bit!) and the pickaxe.

Steve


Carl Fyffe wrote:
> I walked into my grocery store yesterday and picked up some milk. I
> got the strangest look from the cashier when I asked him if I could
> get a discount on the milk since I bought some last week.
> 
> Yes, grocery stores are starting to track purchases of shoppers to
> give them discounts on items, but you must realize that they rarely
> lose money on those deals and that they are purely to incentivize you
> to buy more. The book is a product... just like the milk. If you
don''t
> like the price buy someone else''s book. I doubt it will
"taste" as
> good as this one.
> 
> On 5/3/06, Sean Lynch <sean.seanlynch@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> The 1.0 edition had a coupon code for money off a copy of the pick axe 
>> book.
>> Many of the other pragmatic books have similar discounts in them.
>>
>> Their website also has many discounts.
>>
>> And remember that those auto dealers offer cash back and incentives on
>> the not so hot models. When the Mazda miata and the new beetle first
>> came out dealers were charging huge mark ups, and customers were
>> paying.
>>
>> During the height of the SUV craze, a new Ford Explorer cost Ford, on
>> average, a little over $18,000 US. They average sales price was a
>> little over $36,000 US. Some discount huh?
>>
>> Pragmatic books are not too expensive, don''t begrudge them a
little
>> profit. I don''t think they are gouging when you look at the
market.
>>
>> They are a great value.
>> _______________________________________________
>> Rails mailing list
>> Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org
>> http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Rails mailing list
> Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org
> http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
> 
> 
>

On Wed, May 03, 2006 at 10:07:18AM -0400, Jim Gay wrote:
 
> I don''t see this as much of a problem, but if the next version
comes
> out just as quickly, it wouldn''t be surprising at all if even more
> people are annoyed. Some people, like myself, are still learning this  
> stuff, and personally I''m a bit frustrated that I need to get a
new
> book (or PDF) to stay on top of the latest stuff.
I''m a bit torn on this issue myself.  I bought the paper version of the
first edition and will most likely buy a paper version of the second
edition, weather offered a discount or not.  In real life I''m a
mainframe
operator.  The web development work I do is as a hobby.  My hobby budget is
extremely limited.  I would love to buy the bundle and get the new PDF now
and the paper version later, but that would further stretch my practically
non-existant budget.  If I have to choose between PDF and paper I''ll
take
paper every time.  I like real books.  The few PDF only books I''ve
bought in
the past I ended up printing out and sticking in a binder, which increases
my overall cost of PDF books.  I have to wonder how many versions of Rails
are going to come out between now and the time the new paper edition of the
book comes out.  If the second edition is obsolete before it hits the
bookshelves I might not buy it after all.  


Kevin
http://www.RawFedDogs.net
http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org
Bruceville, TX

I understand the sentiment of wanting discounts for purchasing the new version. 
I got the 1st edition PDF back in Dec. ''05, which is outside their
window for free updates (sigh).  However, I went online and got PDFs of the new
version of "Agile Web Development with Rails", "Enterprise
Integration with Ruby", the latest version of "Programing with
Ruby", and "My Job Went to India" for about $75.  Not bad, when
to compared to college textbooks, which in my experience can run well over $100
and offer dubious value.

Nathan
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I''ll definitely pick up a new copy.  Especially since I
haven''t seen
my Agile book since I loaned it out :)

If Rails hasn''t made you $23.50 in the last 6 months since the first
edition came out, don''t bother buying the second edition.

Sincerely,
PJ Hyett
http://pjhyett.com

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On Wednesday 03 May 2006 22:33, Mark Reginald James wrote:

First of all, I will be buying AWDWR2 very soon (PDF). I also purchased AWDWR, 
just as it was released. 

I think all this discussion is due to a slightly bad strategy by the 
PragProgs. Should they have provided a mere 10% discount on the PDF for 
owners of the first edition (either paper or PDF), everybody would be happy 
and every 1st-ed purchaser would be purchasing the 2nd-ed. By not providing 
this tiny discount, there are some discontent people who would be buying 
whatever book on Rails except AWDWR2.

There was somebody asking why would someone buy the book at Amazon rather than 
at pragmaticprogrammers.com. Well, the answer is easy: Amazon discounts 
heavily on the book and shipping rates are lower. It''s way more 
cost-efficient to buy the paper book at Amazon, then buy the PDF at the (60%) 
discounted rate for paper-owners (it''s even cheaper than buying only
the
paper book at pragmaticprogrammers.com). If I were the PragProgs, I would 
only sell the PDF at a discounted rate to those people who bought the 
dead-tree book at pragmaticprogrammers.com. Of course, buying the combo 
through pragmaticprogrammers.com has the advange of having the beta PDF since 
day one.

> Scott Barron wrote:
> > On May 2, 2006, at 1:50 PM, Chris T wrote:
> >> That''s great news, but I do think there should be a
discount for
> >> those who have already bought the first edition in book form.
> >
> > If I buy a car in 2006, I do not get a discount when the 2007 model
> > comes out.  If I buy a regular TV, I do not get a discount when HD 
(or
> > whatever) is the standard.  If I buy a 2GHz processor, I do not  get a
> > discount when the 4GHz comes out.  If I buy a 15" macbook pro,  I
do not
> > get a discounted upgrade when the 17" comes out for the same 
price!
> > Ergo, I should not expect to get a discount when a new  edition of a
> > book comes out.  New happens, be grateful there *is* a  second
edition,
>
> In the case of the PDF version I don''t think they''re
valid analogies.
> For a PDF book the cost of reproducing and delivering the goods is tiny
> fraction of the development costs.  A better analogy would be software,
> for which upgrade discounts are usually offered.
>
> > and that Dave is busting his hump to keep the book up  to date with
the
> > fast pace of Rails.  It''s $23, not the $2300 or  $23000 we
get shafted
> > on every year on the afore mentioned products.
>
> I found the First Edition great value for money.  It saved me a great
> deal of time by bootstrapping my Ruby and Rails knowledge, and has
> been a very useful reference to the framework.  However I would only
> buy the full-priced PDF of the Second Edition in recognition of
> this value I received from the First Edition.  I could not justify
> it in relative terms for the new content, particularly now that I
> can learn from rawer sources.
>
> But you''re right -- $23 is not much in absolute terms. The update
would
> only have to save you a small amount of time before it payed for itself.
- -- 
Pau Garcia i Quiles
http://www.elpauer.org
(Due to the amount of work, I usually need 10 days to answer)
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On May 3, 2006, at 12:45 PM, PJ Hyett wrote:
> If Rails hasn''t made you $23.50 in the last 6 months since the
first
> edition came out, don''t bother buying the second edition.
>
> Sincerely,
> PJ Hyett
> http://pjhyett.com
This is the best response yet, I love it.

-Scott

I would gladly subscribe to this book for annual updates!!!

One thing I''d love to see, though, is the color bars removed from the
top/bottom of the PDF. It''s a massive waste of ink when printing them
out, and I notice they''re not in the printed version. Any chance of
removing those from your PDFs?

On Wed, May 03, 2006 at 09:45:09AM -0700, PJ Hyett wrote:
} If Rails hasn''t made you $23.50 in the last 6 months since the first
} edition came out, don''t bother buying the second edition.

Hm. Rails got me a new, higher paying job. I guess I should buy the new
version. That''s pretty convincing.

} Sincerely,
} PJ Hyett
--Greg

Scott Barron wrote:
>
> On May 2, 2006, at 1:50 PM, Chris T wrote:
>
>> That''s great news, but I do think there should be a discount
for
>> those who have already bought the first edition in book form.
>
> If I buy a car in 2006, I do not get a discount when the 2007 model 
> comes out.  If I buy a regular TV, I do not get a discount when HD (or 
> whatever) is the standard.  If I buy a 2GHz processor, I do not get a 
> discount when the 4GHz comes out.  If I buy a 15" macbook pro, I do 
> not get a discounted upgrade when the 17" comes out for the same 
> price!  Ergo, I should not expect to get a discount when a new edition 
> of a book comes out.  New happens, be grateful there *is* a second 
> edition, and that Dave is busting his hump to keep the book up to date 
> with the fast pace of Rails.  It''s $23, not the $2300 or $23000 we
get
> shafted on every year on the afore mentioned products. 
Not all of these are good analogies.

If I bought a Mac Mini a month before the new Mac Mini came out, I would 
be entitled to get updated software (e.g. iLife ''06) from Apple for the
cost of shipping. Furthermore, I get "free" software updates to MacOS
X.
While I agree that an upgrade for the book might not be workable, at 
least the PDF should be easily upgradeable. I bought the Rails book 
recently (in fact, I haven''t finished reading it all the way through!) 
but I might have waited if I had know a new version was nearing publication.

How do I upgrade my PDF copy?



-- 
A

On May 3, 2006, at 4:08 PM, Ajai Khattri wrote:
> Scott Barron wrote:
>
>>
>> On May 2, 2006, at 1:50 PM, Chris T wrote:
>>
>>
>>> That''s great news, but I do think there should be a
discount for
>>> those who have already bought the first edition in book form.
>>>
>>
>> If I buy a car in 2006, I do not get a discount when the 2007  
>> model comes out.  If I buy a regular TV, I do not get a discount  
>> when HD (or whatever) is the standard.  If I buy a 2GHz processor,  
>> I do not get a discount when the 4GHz comes out.  If I buy a 15"  
>> macbook pro, I do not get a discounted upgrade when the 17" comes
>> out for the same price!  Ergo, I should not expect to get a  
>> discount when a new edition of a book comes out.  New happens, be  
>> grateful there *is* a second edition, and that Dave is busting his  
>> hump to keep the book up to date with the fast pace of Rails.   
>> It''s $23, not the $2300 or $23000 we get shafted on every year
on
>> the afore mentioned products.
>>
>
> Not all of these are good analogies.
>
Who cares?  Analogies are approximations, and each of the ones I gave  
are approximately accurate.
> If I bought a Mac Mini a month before the new Mac Mini came out, I  
> would be entitled to get updated software (e.g. iLife ''06) from  
> Apple for the cost of shipping. Furthermore, I get "free"
software
> updates to MacOS X. While I agree that an upgrade for the book  
> might not be workable, at least the PDF should be easily  
> upgradeable. I bought the Rails book recently (in fact, I haven''t
> finished reading it all the way through!) but I might have waited  
> if I had know a new version was nearing publication.
And if you bought the first edition pdf on or after april 1st, you  
get a FREE upgrade, not even the cost of shipping.  The "free"  
software updates to macosx do not span "versions" (for whatever  
cracked out scheme they use to define those) of osx.  My ibook came  
with 10.3.x, I had to buy 10.4, no discount.

-Scott

I, too, bought it recently.  The paper book came less than a week ago, and 
it may be that I never remove the shrink wrap.

<snipped analogies of various relevance>

On Wed, 3 May 2006, Ajai Khattri wrote:
> How do I upgrade my PDF copy?
>From the announcement Mr. Thomas posted:
> If you bought a first edition PDF from us on or after April 1st,
> 2006 (order numbers 27140 and above), you qualify for a free upgrade
> to the beta book. We''ll be sending you instructions by email over
> the next few days. (If you have a spam blocker, we suggest
> whitelisting pragprog.com and pragmaticprogrammer.com--you''d be
> amazed how often our PDF download e-mails get bounced.)
I''ve already gotten my instructions on how to download the beta book. 
(I
did have to fish it out of my spam-trap.  It rarely gets something wrong, 
but this one it did mistakenly catch.)

It does not say if this beta will be upgraded to the full release.  If 
not, I''ll be ordering one.  I''ll likely order the paper one
anyway,
because I like books.  (And I like ordering things direct, so the authors 
get more of the money.)

New editions come out.  This is bad timing for those of us who just bought 
them.  A bummer, but it happens.  Good timing happens, too.

-- 
Louis Erickson - lerickson@rdwarf.net - http://www.rdwarf.com/~wwonko/

Writing about music is like dancing about architecture.
		-- Frank Zappa

On 3 May 2006, at 2:17 pm, Derrick Spell wrote:
>
> How about this:  Sell your first edition on eBay, and use the  
> proceeds (which, as in the case of a used car, will be depreciated)  
> to help pay for the second edition.
I''m tempted to sell my two-month-old copy on eBay before people who  
only look at Amazon notice that there''s a new edition on the way, and  
live with just having the PDF version of the second edition until the  
print version comes out.

Kerry

Scott Barron wrote:
> Who cares?  Analogies are approximations, and each of the ones I gave 
> are approximately accurate.
>
Judging from this thread, some of us do...
> And if you bought the first edition pdf on or after april 1st, you get 
> a FREE upgrade, not even the cost of shipping.  The "free"
software
> updates to macosx do not span "versions" (for whatever cracked
out
> scheme they use to define those) of osx.  My ibook came with 10.3.x, I 
> had to buy 10.4, no discount.
Again, PDFs are very similar to software.


-- 
A

> I''m tempted to sell my two-month-old copy on eBay before people
who
> only look at Amazon notice that there''s a new edition on the way,
and
> live with just having the PDF version of the second edition until the
> print version comes out.
The new paper edition won''t be out for some time.  The first edition
was
outdated the day Rails 1.1 was released, if not earlier.

I''ve already bought version 2 because the changes are so dramatic.  It
paid for itself in about 15 minutes.  Heck, download the free demo
chapters they''ve posted and I think most will agree it''s a
major
rewrite.

I''m glad they didn''t wait and milk version 1 until it died of
old age.
I hate tech books that are out of date and I have to google the new
info. If we don''t pay for the new version, we decrease the incentive to
have new versions come out. I''d prefer that the authors have a complete
incentive to keep us current.  I don''t have time to pull all this
together.

-- 
Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.

On 3-mei-2006, at 22:53, Ajai Khattri wrote:
>> And if you bought the first edition pdf on or after april 1st, you  
>> get a FREE upgrade, not even the cost of shipping.  The
"free"
>> software updates to macosx do not span "versions" (for
whatever
>> cracked out scheme they use to define those) of osx.  My ibook  
>> came with 10.3.x, I had to buy 10.4, no discount.
>
> Again, PDFs are very similar to software.
So you agree with Scott then? No discount on the next iteration of  
Mac OS X and the new iteration of Railsaxe?

I do.

-- 
Regards, Charles.

Charles M. Gerungan wrote:
> On 3-mei-2006, at 22:53, Ajai Khattri wrote:
>
>>> And if you bought the first edition pdf on or after april 1st, you 
>>> get a FREE upgrade, not even the cost of shipping.  The
"free"
>>> software updates to macosx do not span "versions" (for
whatever
>>> cracked out scheme they use to define those) of osx.  My ibook came
>>> with 10.3.x, I had to buy 10.4, no discount.
>>
>> Again, PDFs are very similar to software.
>
> So you agree with Scott then? No discount on the next iteration of Mac 
> OS X and the new iteration of Railsaxe?
I will re-iterate what I said earlier: buying a Mac Mini so close to the 
release of the next one meant I was entitled to certain upgrades of the 
software (e.g. replacement of iLife with the completely new iLife ''06) 
for the price of shipping a CDROM. There ought to be some sort of 
discount upgrade for someone that has just recently bought the PDF 
version of the book


-- 
A

> I will re-iterate what I said earlier: buying a Mac Mini so close to the
> release of the next one meant I was entitled to certain upgrades of the
> software (e.g. replacement of iLife with the completely new iLife
''06)
> for the price of shipping a CDROM. There ought to be some sort of
> discount upgrade for someone that has just recently bought the PDF
> version of the book
There is. If you bought the PDF within the past month (since April
1st), you get the new one for free.
--
David Heinemeier Hansson
http://www.loudthinking.com -- Broadcasting Brain
http://www.basecamphq.com   -- Online project management
http://www.backpackit.com   -- Personal information manager
http://www.rubyonrails.com  -- Web-application framework

On May 3, 2006, at 3:08 PM, Ajai Khattri wrote:
> If I bought a Mac Mini a month before the new Mac Mini came out, I  
> would be entitled to get updated software (e.g. iLife ''06) from  
> Apple for the cost of shipping. Furthermore, I get "free"
software
> updates to MacOS X. While I agree that an upgrade for the book  
> might not be workable, at least the PDF should be easily upgradeable.

And tis is exactly what we modeled our approach on.

If you bought a PDF within a month of the announcement, we gave you a  
complementary upgrade.

If you buy a PDF, you get free revisions for the life of that edition.

When a new edition comes along, it''s a cost item.

Exactly as it is for Apple software.

On Wed, 3 May 2006 16:22:19 -0400, Scott Barron wrote:
>> Not all of these are good analogies.
>>
> 
> Who cares?  Analogies are approximations, and each of the ones I gave  
> are approximately accurate.
OK.  Let me try.

Let''s say I buy a pound of pickled herring from Schmendrick''s
Deli on July
1st.  Now, I use two cups of that herring in a salad that I make on July
2nd.  I eat half of that salad the same day, but freeze the rest.

Meanwhile, on the 7th, I buy some gefilte fish - but not from
Schmendrick''s, because his gefilte, at $2.69 a pound, is too mealy.
Morty''s, which is only 20 minutes by foot from Schmendrick''s,
has gefilte
you could die for, and only costs 14 cents more per pound - but he is using
Canadian dollars.

Now, I combine half a cubit of the leftover herring with three lumps of
gefilte fish.   I serve it for lunch, and who should show up to lunch but
Schmendrick himself?  Only he can''t eat the herring - it gives him gas.
So
instead he eats some gefilte fish.  Do I charge him?

The original herring, of course, is Rails 1.0, and I think the rest is
obvious.

Jay Levitt

On May 4, 2006, at 7:29 PM, Jay Levitt wrote:
> [snip: awesome analogy involving gefilte fish, pickled herring and  
> gastrointestinal issues ]
LOL. it''s just amazing how you can always find a fittingly obvious  
kick-ass parable in Jewish folklore. I think you have silenced the  
critics.

sebastian

Dave Thomas wrote:
> On May 3, 2006, at 3:08 PM, Ajai Khattri wrote:
> 
>> If I bought a Mac Mini a month before the new Mac Mini came out, I  
>> would be entitled to get updated software (e.g. iLife ''06)
from
>> Apple for the cost of shipping. Furthermore, I get "free"
software
>> updates to MacOS X. While I agree that an upgrade for the book  
>> might not be workable, at least the PDF should be easily upgradeable.
> 
> 
> And tis is exactly what we modeled our approach on.
> 
> If you bought a PDF within a month of the announcement, we gave you a
> complementary upgrade.
> 
> If you buy a PDF, you get free revisions for the life of that edition.
> 
> When a new edition comes along, it''s a cost item.
> 
> Exactly as it is for Apple software.
I''m a customer thinking about how a publisher''s pricing policy
should
be; that''s my caveat.

What aspects of the pricing policy will cause prospective customers not 
to buy the current product or similar future products?
What aspects of the pricing policy will cause the lost of goodwill even 
from those who buy the current products because they are tied to it 
(it''s a 2nd edition) but may want to remember the current experience?

It''s all a matter of compensation. If you had bought AWDwR1 shortly 
before the release of AWDwR2, and not compensated, you will learn a 
lesson and not buy a product shortly before the release of the next 
edition. Companies don''t want that cash flow gap. Remember the Osborne 
Effect? So AWDwR2 PDF is free to those customers who bought AWDwR1 one 
month before AWDwR2. But is one month enough for the one year life of 
AWDwR1?

Should beta edition buyers be rewarded, particularly if they 
participated in improving the product (hard to quantify). Beta buyers 
are an asset -- they believe in the product even if incomplete, if happy 
they are effective word-of-mouthers, they provide cash even when the 
product is unfinished, they provide info to the company of the interest 
in the product.

.02





-- 
Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.

I would imagine that if Dave and co. over there wanted to, they could query
their order system to find out how many folks bought revision one and then
bought revision two. They could then determine from that information if this
is a strategy they want to try again when another revision comes out.

I think they will, because it makes good business sense. I''ll be
purchasing
my copy today because it has things that will make me more money.

The main reason I think that this will work though, is that we trust the
authors. We trust them not to steer us wrong and to guide us.  With the
first edition, we learned a lot of good techniques.  Now, I could go get a
book from another author that covers Rails 1.1, RJS, and some other really
funky stuff, but I won''t because I can get it in a revised edition from
authors I know.

Plus, this book coming out is perfect for me, as I occasionally train
developers. It was getting harder to talk about Migrations as a good
practice when they''re not in the "bible".

Just my .02

On 5/5/06, Gene Kahn <kublaikhan55@hotmail.com>
wrote:
>
> Dave Thomas wrote:
> > On May 3, 2006, at 3:08 PM, Ajai Khattri wrote:
> >
> >> If I bought a Mac Mini a month before the new Mac Mini came out, I
> >> would be entitled to get updated software (e.g. iLife
''06) from
> >> Apple for the cost of shipping. Furthermore, I get
"free" software
> >> updates to MacOS X. While I agree that an upgrade for the book
> >> might not be workable, at least the PDF should be easily
upgradeable.
> >
> >
> > And tis is exactly what we modeled our approach on.
> >
> > If you bought a PDF within a month of the announcement, we gave you a
> > complementary upgrade.
> >
> > If you buy a PDF, you get free revisions for the life of that edition.
> >
> > When a new edition comes along, it''s a cost item.
> >
> > Exactly as it is for Apple software.
>
> I''m a customer thinking about how a publisher''s pricing
policy should
> be; that''s my caveat.
>
> What aspects of the pricing policy will cause prospective customers not
> to buy the current product or similar future products?
> What aspects of the pricing policy will cause the lost of goodwill even
> from those who buy the current products because they are tied to it
> (it''s a 2nd edition) but may want to remember the current
experience?
>
> It''s all a matter of compensation. If you had bought AWDwR1
shortly
> before the release of AWDwR2, and not compensated, you will learn a
> lesson and not buy a product shortly before the release of the next
> edition. Companies don''t want that cash flow gap. Remember the
Osborne
> Effect? So AWDwR2 PDF is free to those customers who bought AWDwR1 one
> month before AWDwR2. But is one month enough for the one year life of
> AWDwR1?
>
> Should beta edition buyers be rewarded, particularly if they
> participated in improving the product (hard to quantify). Beta buyers
> are an asset -- they believe in the product even if incomplete, if happy
> they are effective word-of-mouthers, they provide cash even when the
> product is unfinished, they provide info to the company of the interest
> in the product.
>
> .02
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.
> _______________________________________________
> Rails mailing list
> Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org
> http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
>
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On May 5, 2006, at 12:40 PM, Gene Kahn wrote:
> It''s all a matter of compensation. If you had bought AWDwR1
shortly
> before the release of AWDwR2, and not compensated, you will learn a
> lesson and not buy a product shortly before the release of the next
> edition. Companies don''t want that cash flow gap. Remember the
Osborne
> Effect? So AWDwR2 PDF is free to those customers who bought AWDwR1 one
> month before AWDwR2. But is one month enough for the one year life of
> AWDwR1?
>
> Should beta edition buyers be rewarded, particularly if they
> participated in improving the product (hard to quantify). Beta buyers
> are an asset -- they believe in the product even if incomplete, if  
> happy
> they are effective word-of-mouthers, they provide cash even when the
> product is unfinished, they provide info to the company of the  
> interest
> in the product.

I''d like to think that the beta program adds value to the community,  
and that even though it hurts our sales of the first edition  
considerably by preannouncing the second edition 5 months out, we''re  
doing the right thing by you all.

Please understand this point: with all this talk about saving $5 on  
an upgrade, the mere act of announcing this book is already costing  
us money in sales that we would have made on first edition book and  
with returns from bookstores of existing first edition stock. We knew  
this going in: we honestly wanted to continue to be a good member of  
the community and go with the beta program despite the financial costs.

This thread has me worried that perhaps I was naive in this, and I''m  
distressed that something I thought was good for us all is generating  
so much apparent heartache.

I''m genuinely sorry that I seem to have caused so much angst---I  
thought folks would actually be excited.


Dave

Dude, the second edition beta is exactly what I needed, and I already
have a (signed) copy of the first edition.  I''m thrilled you did
this.  I really was worried that I wouldn''t have a decent
reference for Rails that discussed migrations, RJS, and the rest.

I can''t speak for anyone else, but you''ve helped me
enormously. 
Thank you for all your hard work.

Ken Kousen

--
Kenneth A. Kousen,
Ph.D.
President
Kousen IT, Inc.
http://www.kousenit.com
ken.kousen-PxcIC9p/5bhWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re:
[Rails] Re: [ADV] Second Edition of Agile Web Development
with
Rails
From: Dave Thomas 
Date: Fri, May
05, 2006 2:45 pm
To: rails-1W37MKcQCpIf0INCOvqR/iCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org

On May 5,
2006, at 12:40 PM, Gene Kahn wrote:

> It''s all a matter of
compensation. If you had bought AWDwR1 shortly
> before the
release of AWDwR2, and not compensated, you will learn a
> lesson
and not buy a product shortly before the release of the next
>
edition. Companies don''t want that cash flow gap. Remember the
Osborne
> Effect? So AWDwR2 PDF is free to those customers who
bought AWDwR1 one
> month before AWDwR2. But is one month enough
for the one year life of
> AWDwR1?
>
> Should beta
edition buyers be rewarded, particularly if they
> participated
in improving the product (hard to quantify). Beta buyers
> are an
asset -- they believe in the product even if incomplete, if

> happy
> they are effective word-of-mouthers, they
provide cash even when the
> product is unfinished, they provide
info to the company of the  
> interest
> in the
product.

I''d like to think that the beta program adds value
to the community,  
and that even though it hurts our sales of
the first edition  
considerably by preannouncing the second
edition 5 months out, we''re  
doing the right thing by you
all.

Please understand this point: with all this talk about
saving $5 on  
an upgrade, the mere act of announcing this book
is already costing  
us money in sales that we would have made
on first edition book and  
with returns from bookstores of
existing first edition stock. We knew  
this going in: we
honestly wanted to continue to be a good member of  
the
community and go with the beta program despite the financial
costs.

This thread has me worried that perhaps I was naive in
this, and I''m  
distressed that something I thought was good
for us all is generating  
so much apparent
heartache.

I''m genuinely sorry that I seem to have caused so
much angst---I  
thought folks would actually be
excited.

Dave
_______________________________________________
Rails
mailing
list
Rails-1W37MKcQCpIf0INCOvqR/iCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org
http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails


_______________________________________________
Rails mailing list
Rails-1W37MKcQCpIf0INCOvqR/iCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org
http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails

I''m one of the people who said it would be nice to get a discount for
recent
purchasers (I bought the hardcopy/pdf combo six months ago) .

I''d like to add that I think the book is fantastic (as is Rails
Recipes,
btw) and I''d have been lost without it.  So - in the spirit of keeping
things in perspective - all I can say is ''keep up the good
work''.

- larry

On 5/5/06, Ken Kousen <ken.kousen@kousenit.com>
wrote:
>
> Dude, the second edition beta is exactly what I needed, and I already have
> a (signed) copy of the first edition.  I''m thrilled you did this. 
I really
> was worried that I wouldn''t have a decent reference for Rails that
discussed
> migrations, RJS, and the rest.
>
> I can''t speak for anyone else, but you''ve helped me
enormously.  Thank you
> for all your hard work.
>
> Ken Kousen
>
> --
> Kenneth A. Kousen, Ph.D.
> President
> Kousen IT, Inc.
> http://www.kousenit.com
> ken.kousen@kousenit.com
>
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: Re: [Rails] Re: [ADV] Second Edition of Agile Web Development
> with Rails
> From: Dave Thomas <dave@pragprog.com>
> Date: Fri, May 05, 2006 2:45 pm
> To: rails@lists.rubyonrails.org
>
> On May 5, 2006, at 12:40 PM, Gene Kahn wrote:
>
> > It''s all a matter of compensation. If you had bought AWDwR1
shortly
> > before the release of AWDwR2, and not compensated, you will learn a
> > lesson and not buy a product shortly before the release of the next
> > edition. Companies don''t want that cash flow gap. Remember
the Osborne
> > Effect? So AWDwR2 PDF is free to those customers who bought AWDwR1 one
> > month before AWDwR2. But is one month enough for the one year life of
> > AWDwR1?
> >
> > Should beta edition buyers be rewarded, particularly if they
> > participated in improving the product (hard to quantify). Beta buyers
> > are an asset -- they believe in the product even if incomplete, if
> > happy
> > they are effective word-of-mouthers, they provide cash even when the
> > product is unfinished, they provide info to the company of the
> > interest
> > in the product.
>
>
> I''d like to think that the beta program adds value to the
community,
> and that even though it hurts our sales of the first edition
> considerably by preannouncing the second edition 5 months out,
we''re
> doing the right thing by you all.
>
> Please understand this point: with all this talk about saving $5 on
> an upgrade, the mere act of announcing this book is already costing
> us money in sales that we would have made on first edition book and
> with returns from bookstores of existing first edition stock. We knew
> this going in: we honestly wanted to continue to be a good member of
> the community and go with the beta program despite the financial costs.
>
> This thread has me worried that perhaps I was naive in this, and
I''m
> distressed that something I thought was good for us all is generating
> so much apparent heartache.
>
> I''m genuinely sorry that I seem to have caused so much angst---I
> thought folks would actually be excited.
>
>
> Dave
> _______________________________________________
> Rails mailing list
> Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org
> http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Rails mailing list
> Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org
> http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
>
>
>
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Thanks, Dave, for updating the Agile book. It''s really needed as a lot
has
improved with Rails since the first edition (which I bought from PragProg
and found very useful). In my opinion, you''re perfectly right in saying
that
you''re doing a favor to the community by updating the book even though
you
could ride longer on the sales of the first edition. And the $2 or $5 or
whatever that people might have saved with a discount doesn''t really
make
any difference to them in the overall scheme of things. But people
aren''t
always swayed by reason, and what matters is their perception of reality,
not reality itself. I think that a small discount (maybe 10%) would have
been a good marketing idea simply because it caters to people''s
perception
and makes people feel good whether or not they actually need the discount or
would have bought it anyway. In any case, I''m sure the second edition
will
sell just fine, and those who complain will get over it and upgrade, so no
worries :-).

On 5/5/06, Dave Thomas <dave@pragprog.com> wrote:
>
>
> On May 5, 2006, at 12:40 PM, Gene Kahn wrote:
>
> > It''s all a matter of compensation. If you had bought AWDwR1
shortly
> > before the release of AWDwR2, and not compensated, you will learn a
> > lesson and not buy a product shortly before the release of the next
> > edition. Companies don''t want that cash flow gap. Remember
the Osborne
> > Effect? So AWDwR2 PDF is free to those customers who bought AWDwR1 one
> > month before AWDwR2. But is one month enough for the one year life of
> > AWDwR1?
> >
> > Should beta edition buyers be rewarded, particularly if they
> > participated in improving the product (hard to quantify). Beta buyers
> > are an asset -- they believe in the product even if incomplete, if
> > happy
> > they are effective word-of-mouthers, they provide cash even when the
> > product is unfinished, they provide info to the company of the
> > interest
> > in the product.
>
>
> I''d like to think that the beta program adds value to the
community,
> and that even though it hurts our sales of the first edition
> considerably by preannouncing the second edition 5 months out,
we''re
> doing the right thing by you all.
>
> Please understand this point: with all this talk about saving $5 on
> an upgrade, the mere act of announcing this book is already costing
> us money in sales that we would have made on first edition book and
> with returns from bookstores of existing first edition stock. We knew
> this going in: we honestly wanted to continue to be a good member of
> the community and go with the beta program despite the financial costs.
>
> This thread has me worried that perhaps I was naive in this, and
I''m
> distressed that something I thought was good for us all is generating
> so much apparent heartache.
>
> I''m genuinely sorry that I seem to have caused so much angst---I
> thought folks would actually be excited.
>
>
> Dave
> _______________________________________________
> Rails mailing list
> Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org
> http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
>


--
"Impossible is nothing."
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I talk a lot about building the Ruby community, and try to put in the
effort to back up my words, but in this case, I think I''ve fallen down
on the job.

On 5/5/06, Dave Thomas <dave@pragprog.com> wrote:
>
> I''d like to think that the beta program adds value to the
community,
It certainly does.  It produces better books, builds the sense of community
and gets the book into the hands of users faster.
> and that even though it hurts our sales of the first edition
> considerably by preannouncing the second edition 5 months out,
we''re
> doing the right thing by you all.
>
> Please understand this point: with all this talk about saving $5 on
> an upgrade, the mere act of announcing this book is already costing
> us money in sales that we would have made on first edition book and
> with returns from bookstores of existing first edition stock. We knew
> this going in: we honestly wanted to continue to be a good member of
> the community and go with the beta program despite the financial costs.
I think this was a tremendous move on your part.  Not only did you insulate
people from buying a soon to be obsoleted book for a considerable period
of time (I can''t imagine another publisher doing that), but you are
again
getting needed information into the community earlier than otherwise possible.
I''ve been shocked that you guys have taken such a beating over this.
>
> This thread has me worried that perhaps I was naive in this, and
I''m
> distressed that something I thought was good for us all is generating
> so much apparent heartache.
>
> I''m genuinely sorry that I seem to have caused so much angst---I
> thought folks would actually be excited.
>
Though I don''t do much (if anything) with Rails, I''m really
excited to see
on the horizon what promises to be another great book for the Ruby and Rails
community.

Thanks!
>
> Dave

--
-pate
-------------------------
http://on-ruby.blogspot.com

Larry White wrote:
> I''m one of the people who said it would be nice to get a discount
for
> recent purchasers (I bought the hardcopy/pdf combo six months ago) .
>
Ditto
> I''d like to add that I think the book is fantastic (as is Rails 
> Recipes, btw) and I''d have been lost without it.  So - in the
spirit
> of keeping things in perspective - all I can say is ''keep up the
good
> work''.
>
Ditto
> - larry
>
> On 5/5/06, *Ken Kousen* <ken.kousen@kousenit.com 
> <mailto:ken.kousen@kousenit.com>> wrote:
>
>     Dude, the second edition beta is exactly what I needed, and I
>     already have a (signed) copy of the first edition.  I''m
thrilled
>     you did this.  I really was worried that I wouldn''t have a
decent
>     reference for Rails that discussed migrations, RJS, and the rest.
>      
>     I can''t speak for anyone else, but you''ve helped me
enormously.
>     Thank you for all your hard work.
>      
>     Ken Kousen
>
>     --
>     Kenneth A. Kousen, Ph.D.
>     President
>     Kousen IT, Inc.
>     http://www.kousenit.com <http://www.kousenit.com/>
>     ken.kousen@kousenit.com <mailto:ken.kousen@kousenit.com>
>
>
>         -------- Original Message --------
>         Subject: Re: [Rails] Re: [ADV] Second Edition of Agile Web
>         Development
>         with Rails
>         From: Dave Thomas <dave@pragprog.com
<mailto:dave@pragprog.com>>
>         Date: Fri, May 05, 2006 2:45 pm
>         To: rails@lists.rubyonrails.org
>         <mailto:rails@lists.rubyonrails.org>
>
>         On May 5, 2006, at 12:40 PM, Gene Kahn wrote:
>
>         > It''s all a matter of compensation. If you had bought
AWDwR1
>         shortly
>         > before the release of AWDwR2, and not compensated, you will
>         learn a
>         > lesson and not buy a product shortly before the release of
>         the next
>         > edition. Companies don''t want that cash flow gap.
Remember
>         the Osborne
>         > Effect? So AWDwR2 PDF is free to those customers who bought
>         AWDwR1 one
>         > month before AWDwR2. But is one month enough for the one year
>         life of
>         > AWDwR1?
>         >
>         > Should beta edition buyers be rewarded, particularly if they
>         > participated in improving the product (hard to quantify).
>         Beta buyers
>         > are an asset -- they believe in the product even if
>         incomplete, if  
>         > happy
>         > they are effective word-of-mouthers, they provide cash even
>         when the
>         > product is unfinished, they provide info to the company of the
>         > interest
>         > in the product.
>
>
>         I''d like to think that the beta program adds value to the
>         community,  
>         and that even though it hurts our sales of the first edition  
>         considerably by preannouncing the second edition 5 months out,
>         we''re  
>         doing the right thing by you all.
>
>         Please understand this point: with all this talk about saving
>         $5 on  
>         an upgrade, the mere act of announcing this book is already
>         costing  
>         us money in sales that we would have made on first edition
>         book and  
>         with returns from bookstores of existing first edition stock.
>         We knew  
>         this going in: we honestly wanted to continue to be a good
>         member of  
>         the community and go with the beta program despite the
>         financial costs.
>
>         This thread has me worried that perhaps I was naive in this,
>         and I''m  
>         distressed that something I thought was good for us all is
>         generating  
>         so much apparent heartache.
>
>         I''m genuinely sorry that I seem to have caused so much
angst---I
>         thought folks would actually be excited.
>
>
>         Dave
>         _______________________________________________
>         Rails mailing list
>         Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org
<mailto:Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org>
>         http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails 
>
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     Rails mailing list
>     Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org <mailto:Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org>
>     http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Rails mailing list
> Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org
> http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
>

On 5/5/06, Dave Thomas <dave@pragprog.com> wrote:
>
> On May 5, 2006, at 12:40 PM, Gene Kahn wrote:
>
> > It''s all a matter of compensation. If you had bought AWDwR1
shortly
> > before the release of AWDwR2, and not compensated, you will learn a
> > lesson and not buy a product shortly before the release of the next
> > edition. Companies don''t want that cash flow gap. Remember
the Osborne
> > Effect? So AWDwR2 PDF is free to those customers who bought AWDwR1 one
> > month before AWDwR2. But is one month enough for the one year life of
> > AWDwR1?
> >
> > Should beta edition buyers be rewarded, particularly if they
> > participated in improving the product (hard to quantify). Beta buyers
> > are an asset -- they believe in the product even if incomplete, if
> > happy
> > they are effective word-of-mouthers, they provide cash even when the
> > product is unfinished, they provide info to the company of the
> > interest
> > in the product.
>
>
> I''d like to think that the beta program adds value to the
community,
> and that even though it hurts our sales of the first edition
> considerably by preannouncing the second edition 5 months out,
we''re
> doing the right thing by you all.
>
> Please understand this point: with all this talk about saving $5 on
> an upgrade, the mere act of announcing this book is already costing
> us money in sales that we would have made on first edition book and
> with returns from bookstores of existing first edition stock. We knew
> this going in: we honestly wanted to continue to be a good member of
> the community and go with the beta program despite the financial costs.
>
> This thread has me worried that perhaps I was naive in this, and
I''m
> distressed that something I thought was good for us all is generating
> so much apparent heartache.
>
> I''m genuinely sorry that I seem to have caused so much angst---I
> thought folks would actually be excited.
>
>
> Dave
> _______________________________________________
> Rails mailing list
> Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org
> http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
>
I''m one of the people to initially say it''d be nice to get
some kind
of discount.

I also ordered the combo pack yesterday :)

Bottom line, you guys consistently produce the highest quality books
of any publisher I''ve encountered.  Your beta program is spectacular -
we want/need this info NOW, and even though you''re probably taking a
bit of a loss by releasing the book, you''re willing to give it to us
now.

You''ve provided a tremendous service to the Ruby and Rails community. 
Whatever money you might lose by releasing this beta book, I''m sure
you''ll gain plenty more because customers will be willing to return to
you.  As I mentioned, I own 5 prag books myself.

Pat

> I''d like to think that the beta program adds value to the
community,
> and that even though it hurts our sales of the first edition
> considerably by preannouncing the second edition 5 months out,
we''re
> doing the right thing by you all.
>
> Please understand this point: with all this talk about saving $5 on
> an upgrade, the mere act of announcing this book is already costing
> us money in sales that we would have made on first edition book and
> with returns from bookstores of existing first edition stock. We knew
> this going in: we honestly wanted to continue to be a good member of
> the community and go with the beta program despite the financial costs.
>
> This thread has me worried that perhaps I was naive in this, and
I''m
> distressed that something I thought was good for us all is generating
> so much apparent heartache.
>
> I''m genuinely sorry that I seem to have caused so much angst---I
> thought folks would actually be excited.
Honestly Dave, I love the Prag. Bookshelf, I''m gradually collecting
the whole damn thing, and for what it''s worth, I think the
community''s
response to your news is utterly appalling.

I think you underestimated the value of what you had to sell,
underpriced it, and are now seeing it undervalued in the marketplace.

I''d say just publish v2 as an update-only edition, and skip discounts
entirely.

--
Giles Bowkett
http://www.gilesgoatboy.org

I think the beta book program is just fantastic and the time I save 
by getting access to your work is worth SO much more than the cost of 
what you are selling that the $50 I spent on the combopack is 
practically irrelevant.

This list has many many people and what normally generates the will 
to post is a scratch -- a problem of some sorts. You can''t make 
simple generalizations from he distributions of opinion in a comment 
thread. That doesn''t mean that you should ignore the comments either 
however.

Ultimately the sales you get will help inform your business 
decisions. If there are enough people like me your sales will prove 
you made the right decisions.

I don''t expect this to be true but if Rails changes and expands as 
much in the next year as it has in the last year I''ll happily buy 
more of your work next year.

-- 
- Stephen Bannasch
   Concord Consortium, http://www.concord.org

> From: Dave Thomas <dave@pragprog.com>
> This thread has me worried that perhaps I was naive in this, and
I''m
> distressed that something I thought was good for us all is generating  
> so much apparent heartache.
> 
> I''m genuinely sorry that I seem to have caused so much angst---I  
> thought folks would actually be excited.
> 
> 
> Dave
Here''s one data point from a serious nuby. I bought v1 in dead tree 
format at a local bookstore. I''m a little cheesed that v2 is out and I 
have to pay full price... but just a little.

It would indeed be great if there were something akin to an 
encyclopedia''s yearbook: AWDWR 4/06 update, but with all
that''s new,
that would probably cost as much to make as v2. (and I''m sure the 
publisher wouldn''t like to support both products!)

I don''t make my living with Rails, and it may never happen, so
it''s not
a no-brainer to buy v2 for me. But, I do have v1, and I have access to 
the very excellent online docs, and the support of the community.

In making a couple of Rails apps, if I want to get into the depths of 
testing, or RJS, or whatever, I''ll buy v2. v1 was certainly well
written
and readable. (Excellent editor!)

Otherwise, I''ll wait for the sweeping changes that Ruby 2.0 brings to 
Rails and buy THAT version of your book.

I don''t see any better way to handle things than the way you did. As 
long as you don''t expect everyone to buy every version, you''re
fine.

Take care,
Chris

On 5 May 2006, at 7:45 pm, Dave Thomas wrote:
> Please understand this point: with all this talk about saving $5 on  
> an upgrade, the mere act of announcing this book is already costing  
> us money in sales that we would have made on first edition book and  
> with returns from bookstores of existing first edition stock. We  
> knew this going in: we honestly wanted to continue to be a good  
> member of the community and go with the beta program despite the  
> financial costs.
>
> This thread has me worried that perhaps I was naive in this, and  
> I''m distressed that something I thought was good for us all is  
> generating so much apparent heartache.
>
> I''m genuinely sorry that I seem to have caused so much angst---I  
> thought folks would actually be excited.
And I''m sure a lot of us are. I''m almost certainly going to
buy the
beta of the second edition, even though I haven''t finished reading  
the original yet (I''m new to rails, and so far it''s just for
fun,
until I can find an excuse to start sneaking it in at work instead of  
doing everything in Java). Whatever you do, there''ll always be some  
people who aren''t happy.

Keep up the good work -- from where I''m looking, the Pragmatic  
bookshelf is on track to become the next O''Reilly.

Kerry

On 5/5/06, Dave Thomas <dave@pragprog.com> wrote:
> I''m genuinely sorry that I seem to have caused so much angst---I
> thought folks would actually be excited.
I''m excited for the book.  It''s a great thing to be smart
enough to
write books.  You''re the man, etc..  :)

But.. being a 1st edition buyer of both the print and the PDF
versions, the 2nd edition, no matter how much new content has been
added, is still very much an ''upgrade'' from my point of view
as a
consumer.  I''m guessing you did not create all the content for the 2nd
edition from scratch.  At least a portion of the 1st edition was
reused, was it not?  Why would I want to pay for the same thing again?
 I apologize in advance if the book _is_ all 100% new content. 
Personally I would go with a new/different name if that is the case.

It wouldn''t be nearly as big a deal to me if the respective editions
were years apart.  If I had know a 2nd edition were to be printed I
probably would have waited.  I bought early and that''s my own fault,
not yours.  But going forward it would be doubly bad if I let this
happen to my wallet again.  What if there''s a 3rd edition coming for
Rails 1.2 or 1.3?  Do I wait or do I spend now for a book that could
easily be outdated (again) this time next year?

A 2nd edition discount for 1st edition buyers would easily sway my
opinion to go ahead with the purchase now, but since none is being
offered to my particular purchase date, I cannot.  It''s likely I will
purchase the book at some point but will wait for a used version or
other such discounted sale.


--
Greg Donald
Zend Certified Engineer
MySQL Core Certification
http://destiney.com/

On 5 May 2006, at 10:35 pm, Greg Donald wrote:
> It wouldn''t be nearly as big a deal to me if the respective
editions
> were years apart.
But then they''d be so far out of date as to be almost useless.
I''ve
been burnt before by buying a book that hadn''t been updated for the  
version of the relevant technology that was current when I bought it  
(and had been for some time), and because there had been a major API  
change it was a total waste of money. I''d much rather at least have  
the option of buying an up-to-date book more frequently (and the beta  
PDF programme is even better).

If you want to leave it a couple of years, wait for the third or  
fourth edition, but by then how much of your current book will still  
be useful?

Kerry

To me this is a lose lose situation from the arguments above.  If no second
edition had come out everyone would be yelling "Agile Book is so out of
date
with respect to rails 1.1.2 !!".  Now that Dave has spent time to get it up
to date with the fast pace changes of Rails, people are complaining "I just
bought rev 1!!".

As said above we shoud be happy that Dave and the gang have bothered to put
in the effort to give us all an up to date reference to work with.  The only
reason the rev came so soon is b/c rails is moving so quickly right now.
The way I look at it is if you dont want the updated version you dont have
to buy it, but dont complain about "lack of updated information" with
all
the new rails features.  Some books never release a second edition and end
up becoming almost worthless.

Cheers for the hard work Dave, I bought the first book and it jumpstarted my
rails projects, I  plan on buying the second edition.

adam

On 5/5/06, Kerry Buckley <home@kerrybuckley.com>
wrote:
>
> On 5 May 2006, at 10:35 pm, Greg Donald wrote:
>
> > It wouldn''t be nearly as big a deal to me if the respective
editions
> > were years apart.
>
> But then they''d be so far out of date as to be almost useless.
I''ve
> been burnt before by buying a book that hadn''t been updated for
the
> version of the relevant technology that was current when I bought it
> (and had been for some time), and because there had been a major API
> change it was a total waste of money. I''d much rather at least
have
> the option of buying an up-to-date book more frequently (and the beta
> PDF programme is even better).
>
> If you want to leave it a couple of years, wait for the third or
> fourth edition, but by then how much of your current book will still
> be useful?
>
> Kerry
> _______________________________________________
> Rails mailing list
> Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org
> http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
>
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On May 3, 2006, at 11:45 AM, PJ Hyett wrote:
> If Rails hasn''t made you $23.50 in the last 6 months since the
first
> edition came out, don''t bother buying the second edition.
This really should have been the last word in this discussion. Let''s  
try again.


Sebastian

On 5/5/06, Kerry Buckley <home@kerrybuckley.com>
wrote:
> If you want to leave it a couple of years, wait for the third or
> fourth edition, but by then how much of your current book will still
> be useful?
It is not anyone''s fault Rails is evolving so quickly, neither the
author or the readers.  Still, I cannot not pay full price for
''updated'' content.

CDs, manuals, and packaging all cost money to make, just like books
cost money to print.  Meanwhile software companies sell discounted
upgrades all the time.


--
Greg Donald
Zend Certified Engineer
MySQL Core Certification
http://destiney.com/

On May 5, 2006, at 11:45 AM, Dave Thomas wrote:
> Please understand this point: with all this talk about saving $5 on  
> an upgrade, the mere act of announcing this book is already costing  
> us money in sales that we would have made on first edition book and  
> with returns from bookstores of existing first edition stock. We  
> knew this going in: we honestly wanted to continue to be a good  
> member of the community and go with the beta program despite the  
> financial costs.
Hey, I''m excited about it. I''ll get a 2nd edition too. :)

-- 
_Deirdre                                             http://deirdre.net

Hey Dave and Co., I wouldn''t change what you have done one bit.  The
books
that you sell support your effort to publishing it.  It seems that some
people simply don''t understand that it takes time and a great deal of
effort
to publish a book.  Next, no one is forcing you, the consumer,  to buy this
book or any other revision of this or any other book.  Again, you have the
option of seraching the internet for the information contained in this book
and posting on various newsgroups.  Chris, you mentioned something about
"AWDWR 4/06 update".
It sounds like a good idea but are you willing to lead that effort?  Please
understand that I''m not trying to pick on anyone on the mailing list. 
OK?
Open-source is about contributing towards the project (i.e. rails
development) instead of being a backseat driver.  One way of contributing is
purchasing some form of the book or providing feedback for it.  Please
don''t
moan and groan when X is covered in the book or why there''s not enough
documentation for topic X.  You have an execellent opportunity now to voice
your opinion for the next release of a must have RoR developer''s book.
Thus, you shouldn''t waste your time nickle and diming the fact that a
new
revision of a book will be realeasing in September 2006.

Thanks for listening,

-Conrad

On 5/5/06, Chris Schumann <chris@idlelion.net>
wrote:
>
> > From: Dave Thomas <dave@pragprog.com>
> > This thread has me worried that perhaps I was naive in this, and
I''m
> > distressed that something I thought was good for us all is generating
> > so much apparent heartache.
> >
> > I''m genuinely sorry that I seem to have caused so much
angst---I
> > thought folks would actually be excited.
> >
> >
> > Dave
>
> Here''s one data point from a serious nuby. I bought v1 in dead
tree
> format at a local bookstore. I''m a little cheesed that v2 is out
and I
> have to pay full price... but just a little.
>
> It would indeed be great if there were something akin to an
> encyclopedia''s yearbook: AWDWR 4/06 update, but with all
that''s new,
> that would probably cost as much to make as v2. (and I''m sure the
> publisher wouldn''t like to support both products!)
>
> I don''t make my living with Rails, and it may never happen, so
it''s not
> a no-brainer to buy v2 for me. But, I do have v1, and I have access to
> the very excellent online docs, and the support of the community.
>
> In making a couple of Rails apps, if I want to get into the depths of
> testing, or RJS, or whatever, I''ll buy v2. v1 was certainly well
written
> and readable. (Excellent editor!)
>
> Otherwise, I''ll wait for the sweeping changes that Ruby 2.0 brings
to
> Rails and buy THAT version of your book.
>
> I don''t see any better way to handle things than the way you did.
As
> long as you don''t expect everyone to buy every version,
you''re fine.
>
> Take care,
> Chris
> _______________________________________________
> Rails mailing list
> Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org
> http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
>
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Chris Schumann <chris@...> writes:
> Here''s one data point from a serious nuby. I bought v1 in dead
tree
> format at a local bookstore. I''m a little cheesed that v2 is out
and I
> have to pay full price... but just a little.
> 
> It would indeed be great if there were something akin to an 
> encyclopedia''s yearbook: AWDWR 4/06 update, but with all
that''s new,
> that would probably cost as much to make as v2. (and I''m sure the 
> publisher wouldn''t like to support both products!)
> 
> I don''t make my living with Rails, and it may never happen, so
it''s not
> a no-brainer to buy v2 for me. But, I do have v1, and I have access to 
> the very excellent online docs, and the support of the community.
> 
> In making a couple of Rails apps, if I want to get into the depths of 
> testing, or RJS, or whatever, I''ll buy v2. v1 was certainly well
written
> and readable. (Excellent editor!)
> 
> Otherwise, I''ll wait for the sweeping changes that Ruby 2.0 brings
to
> Rails and buy THAT version of your book.
> 
> I don''t see any better way to handle things than the way you did.
As
> long as you don''t expect everyone to buy every version,
you''re fine.
> 
> Take care,
> Chris
> 
<rant note=''you have been warned''>

I''m also a bit ticked that a completely new edition is coming out so
quickly after the previous one and no discount is offered. I didn''t 
really expect Pragmatic to offer a discount, but it would have been nice.

How about if I pay $23 * (# pages changed in new edition / 526)  
(526 = # pages in 1st edition)? Why should I pay for a book that is likely
to have much of the same content I already paid for?

The real problem is not with this book. We''re only upset because 
this book is the best documentation available on Rails. This would not 
be an issue if we had some decent documentation on the Rails website.
It''s
got problems, and honestly hasn''t really improved much over the past
year
except for the manuals):
 * Very little documentation on files not in the API, e.g., script/*,
configuration;
 * The wiki is an unorganized disaster, with tons of spam recently;
 * Way too many undocumented methods in the API; and
 * Mostly reference documentation, not much in the way of tutorials 
   (beyond the really introductory ones) or under-the-hood explanations of
    what''s really going on.

I try to clean up the wiki as I use it, but to little impact. Why don''t
we
have a good API/wiki combo, where people can annotate the API documentation
online?

So we''re faced with a dilemma:
1. shell out $23 for the new book
2. suffer through with the online doc
3. sift through the codebase to figure out how things work/don''t work,
and
   then submit a documentation patch and wait forever for it to get into 
   the doc (yeah, right)

</rant>

3. sift through the codebase to figure out how things work/don''t work,
and
  then submit a documentation patch and wait forever for it to get into
  the doc (yeah, right)

While you are sifting, I will be reading the answer in my book, saving
myself time. I bet I save more than $23 worth of my time. How much
will your sifting cost you?

On 5/5/06, Kian <kianwright@pfima.com> wrote:
> Chris Schumann <chris@...> writes:
>
> > Here''s one data point from a serious nuby. I bought v1 in
dead tree
> > format at a local bookstore. I''m a little cheesed that v2 is
out and I
> > have to pay full price... but just a little.
> >
> > It would indeed be great if there were something akin to an
> > encyclopedia''s yearbook: AWDWR 4/06 update, but with all
that''s new,
> > that would probably cost as much to make as v2. (and I''m sure
the
> > publisher wouldn''t like to support both products!)
> >
> > I don''t make my living with Rails, and it may never happen,
so it''s not
> > a no-brainer to buy v2 for me. But, I do have v1, and I have access to
> > the very excellent online docs, and the support of the community.
> >
> > In making a couple of Rails apps, if I want to get into the depths of
> > testing, or RJS, or whatever, I''ll buy v2. v1 was certainly
well written
> > and readable. (Excellent editor!)
> >
> > Otherwise, I''ll wait for the sweeping changes that Ruby 2.0
brings to
> > Rails and buy THAT version of your book.
> >
> > I don''t see any better way to handle things than the way you
did. As
> > long as you don''t expect everyone to buy every version,
you''re fine.
> >
> > Take care,
> > Chris
> >
>
> <rant note=''you have been warned''>
>
> I''m also a bit ticked that a completely new edition is coming out
so
> quickly after the previous one and no discount is offered. I
didn''t
> really expect Pragmatic to offer a discount, but it would have been nice.
>
> How about if I pay $23 * (# pages changed in new edition / 526)
> (526 = # pages in 1st edition)? Why should I pay for a book that is likely
> to have much of the same content I already paid for?
>
> The real problem is not with this book. We''re only upset because
> this book is the best documentation available on Rails. This would not
> be an issue if we had some decent documentation on the Rails website.
It''s
> got problems, and honestly hasn''t really improved much over the
past year
> except for the manuals):
>  * Very little documentation on files not in the API, e.g., script/*,
configuration;
>  * The wiki is an unorganized disaster, with tons of spam recently;
>  * Way too many undocumented methods in the API; and
>  * Mostly reference documentation, not much in the way of tutorials
>    (beyond the really introductory ones) or under-the-hood explanations of
>     what''s really going on.
>
> I try to clean up the wiki as I use it, but to little impact. Why
don''t we
> have a good API/wiki combo, where people can annotate the API documentation
> online?
>
> So we''re faced with a dilemma:
> 1. shell out $23 for the new book
> 2. suffer through with the online doc
> 3. sift through the codebase to figure out how things work/don''t
work, and
>    then submit a documentation patch and wait forever for it to get into
>    the doc (yeah, right)
>
> </rant>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Rails mailing list
> Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org
> http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
>

Carl Fyffe <carl.fyffe@...> writes:
> 
> 3. sift through the codebase to figure out how things work/don''t
work, and
>   then submit a documentation patch and wait forever for it to get into
>   the doc (yeah, right)
> 
> While you are sifting, I will be reading the answer in my book, saving
> myself time. I bet I save more than $23 worth of my time. How much
> will your sifting cost you?
> 
FYI: ''(yeah, right)'' == sarcasm indicator

I''ll be shelling out the $23, and then I''ll be even more
ticked b/c DHH, DT, &
crew are making money off of me b/c of the lousy doc. OTH, I''m making
money b/c
of Rails (and more than $23)...

I guess it beats having to buy and use Visual Studio or something.

> FYI: ''(yeah, right)'' == sarcasm indicator
>
> I''ll be shelling out the $23, and then I''ll be even more
ticked b/c DHH, DT, &
> crew are making money off of me b/c of the lousy doc. OTH, I''m
making money b/c
> of Rails (and more than $23)...
If the Docs are lousy,  please submit a patch to improve them,  I''ll
gladly apply it.   Otherwise I''ll get back to working long hours on an
open source project for free.

--
Cheers

Koz

On May 5, 2006, at 3:00 PM, Greg Donald wrote:
> It is not anyone''s fault Rails is evolving so quickly, neither the
> author or the readers.  Still, I cannot not pay full price for
> ''updated'' content.
I assume the double negative is a typo. If so, WHY can''t you pay full
price for updated content? I''m totally clear that you may choose not
to, but saying that you ''cannot'' is likely overstated.
> CDs, manuals, and packaging all cost money to make, just like books
> cost money to print.  Meanwhile software companies sell discounted
> upgrades all the time.
It is none of your business what the production costs are. The only
question you need to ask yourself is whether or not the information
is worth the price you can buy it for.

If you want it, buy it. If you don''t want it, don''t buy it.

-- 
-- Tom Mornini

Dave Thomas wrote:
> I''d like to think that the beta program adds value to the
community, and
> that even though it hurts our sales of the first edition considerably by 
> preannouncing the second edition 5 months out, we''re doing the
right
> thing by you all.
The first edition hasn''t done badly, and the only thing that *should*
be
hurting its sales is the rate of change in Rails itself. AWDR was there 
on the shelf at Waterstones in Kingston (Surrey) today, and I imagine 
they''ll keep selling it until there''s a new paper edition.

Also, many sales of Rails Recipes will be due to the first edition of 
AWDR becoming out of date. That''s certainly why I bought the Rails 
Recipes beta.
> Please understand this point: with all this talk about saving $5 on an 
> upgrade, the mere act of announcing this book is already costing us 
> money in sales that we would have made on first edition book and with 
> returns from bookstores of existing first edition stock. We knew this 
> going in: we honestly wanted to continue to be a good member of the 
> community and go with the beta program despite the financial costs.
I can''t find the post right now, but you have mentioned the possibility
of a discount for upgraders in the past (without committing to it). That 
may have set expectations.

Maybe it''s just me, but I interpret "cost" as something you
have to pay,
as opposed to "reduction in profit". I appreciate that writing the 
second edition is a cost, but you won''t be alone in this market for
long...

I know that you believe in Rails and want to contribute to its success 
by providing (and continuing to provide) the definitive book on the 
subject. I''d prefer not to think about what you are doing in cashflow 
terms - but if I do, I see that there are tricky decisions regarding 
when to announce and release a new edition, in order to hold on to 
market share.
> This thread has me worried that perhaps I was naive in this, and
I''m
> distressed that something I thought was good for us all is generating so 
> much apparent heartache.
It is good. It was also good that the first edition of Pickaxe was free 
to download. It''s your book, and your choice.
> I''m genuinely sorry that I seem to have caused so much angst---I
thought
> folks would actually be excited.
I *am* excited, and I have bought the second edition PDF (to add to my 
first edition PDF, plus two paper copies - I lost one, bought another, 
then found the first again), paper copies of both Pickaxe editions, PDF 
of the second edition of Pickaxe, Rails Recipes PDF, Enterprise 
Integration with Ruby PDF, Pragmatic Ajax PDF, paper copies of the 
Pragmatic Starter Kit books, and the Pragmatic Programmer.

I can afford this, but others (e.g. students and developers in poorer 
countries) may find it difficult. That''s not your problem - Rails
should
have good, free, current tutorial and reference documentation.

(Remember when the JBoss team started charging for documentation?)

take care, and keep up the excellent work

   Justin

Michael Koziarski wrote:
>
> If the Docs are lousy,  please submit a patch to improve them, 
I''ll
> gladly apply it.   Otherwise I''ll get back to working long hours
on an
> open source project for free.
An excellent point.  I for one salute the hard work that has already 
gone into Rails and will continue to do so.  Authors don''t rake in huge
amounts of cash due to book deals...  And it is *expensive* to do an 
initial print run (though subsequent runs are much cheaper).  If you 
don''t want to pay for a brand name, settle for a generic; but realize 
the impact it will have.  The book is *well* worth the money.  There are 
many people who donate to the Rails community without seeing a cent back 
for their personal time.  It''s called sacrifice, and it''s good
for your
soul...  :: grin ::  I applaud their efforts...their souls will be 
cradled in the bosom of Karma.

While the docs for PHP, MSDN, and some of the other languages out there 
may be "better" than those for Ruby / Rails, they didn''t
start out that
way.  I also don''t see anyone suggesting that they will create a 
brilliant documentation repository for their first Rails app and donate 
it to the community.  We are all part of the community.  Don''t bitch 
about it, spend your effort improving it.  The reason I have not yet is 
because I don''t feel comfortable that I know enough best
practices...but
eventually I will.


-Curtis

Maybe the easiest solution is to buy the PDF ? You can then upgrade it 
for free when a new edition comes out. See 
http://www.pragmaticprogrammer.com/starter_kit/faqs/pdf_update_faq.html

I don''t think a lot of publishers do that, and no garage I have heard
of
does...

Quick correction:

"* We offer free updates on all PDFs we supply (within the same edition).*
"

That means you cannot get a free upgrade from V1 to V2 or V2 to V3.  It only
covers updates within a version.

On 5/6/06, David Sulc <davidsulc@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Maybe the easiest solution is to buy the PDF ? You can then upgrade it
> for free when a new edition comes out. See
> http://www.pragmaticprogrammer.com/starter_kit/faqs/pdf_update_faq.html
>
> I don''t think a lot of publishers do that, and no garage I have
heard of
> does...
> _______________________________________________
> Rails mailing list
> Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org
> http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
>
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On Fri, 5 May 2006, Conrad Taylor wrote:
> It seems that some people simply don''t understand that it takes
time and
> a great deal of effort to publish a book.
This comes up in a number of ways on this list -- from the cost of 
different hosting companies to how "overpriced" Macs are.

Everyone applies their own value-to-cost computation; if the value the 
item brings is more than the cost, those people will buy it.

--Jim

Kerry Buckley wrote:
>
> And I''m sure a lot of us are. I''m almost certainly going
to buy the
> beta of the second edition, even though I haven''t finished reading
the
> original yet
Im in the same boat - Im still working my way through the first 
edition... ;-(
> Keep up the good work -- from where I''m looking, the Pragmatic 
> bookshelf is on track to become the next O''Reilly.
Ah, but O''Reilly have a nice upgrade policy:
http://www.oreilly.com/order/upgrade.html


-- 
A

Ajai Khattri wrote:
> Kerry Buckley wrote:
>> Keep up the good work -- from where I''m looking, the Pragmatic
>> bookshelf is on track to become the next O''Reilly.
> 
> Ah, but O''Reilly have a nice upgrade policy:
> http://www.oreilly.com/order/upgrade.html
> 
That looks exactly right... I didn''t know, and there are quite a few 
O''Reilly books I''ve bought more than one edtion of (I still
have the
first edition of Java in a Nutshell!).

thanks

   Justin

On 7 May 2006, at 1:59 am, Ajai Khattri wrote:
> Ah, but O''Reilly have a nice upgrade policy:
> http://www.oreilly.com/order/upgrade.html
...as long as you live in the US.

Kerry

On Sat, May 06, 2006 at 08:59:03PM -0400, Ajai Khattri wrote:
  
> Ah, but O''Reilly have a nice upgrade policy:
> http://www.oreilly.com/order/upgrade.html
I always did like O''Reilly.  Oddly this is the first I''ve
heard of their
upgrade policy.  Is the upgrade policy only good for true O''Reilly
books or
for any books purchased from O''Reilly?  I searched for Rails books on
the
O''Reilly site and it appears that AWDR can be purchased from
O''Reilly.  The
book qualifies for free shipping and they even have a buy two books, get one
free offer.  I will definitely keep O''Reilly in mind when expanding my
Rails
library.


Kevin
http://www.RawFedDogs.net
http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org
Bruceville, TX

> Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 15:16:12 -0700
> From: "Conrad Taylor" <conradwt@gmail.com>
...
> various newsgroups.  Chris, you mentioned something about 
> "AWDWR 4/06 update".
> It sounds like a good idea but are you willing to lead that 
> effort?  Please understand that I''m not trying to pick on 
> anyone on the mailing list.  OK?
I am not willing... nor able at this point. I''m not trying to complain.
I''ve
stated my feeling. I certainly didn''t moan or groan.

Part of my reason to not purchase v2 is that v1 is so very good that I just
won''t need v2 for some time. What a compliment!

I also wrote that I couldn''t think of a better-but-still-practical way
to
publish new works. Indeed kudos to Dave for even bothering to keep the
literature up to date on a fast-moving target.

If the rest of us put the same kind of serious effort into the wiki,
there''d
be no need for the book.
> Open-source is about contributing towards the project (i.e. rails
> development) instead of being a backseat driver.  One way of 
> contributing is purchasing some form of the book or providing 
> feedback for it.
I disagree with this point. Buying a book support the author, not the
community. If that author happens to spend time on improving the software,
yay for us, but it could just as well be two different people. In fact, some
might see something nefarious about a developer changing code so fast that
he has to write a book about it twice a year. Me? I''m happy to have a
decent
reference to buy.

Chris

Kevin Monceaux wrote:
>
> I always did like O''Reilly.  Oddly this is the first I''ve
heard of their
> upgrade policy.  Is the upgrade policy only good for true O''Reilly
books or
> for any books purchased from O''Reilly?
Dont know.
>   I searched for Rails books on the
> O''Reilly site and it appears that AWDR can be purchased from
O''Reilly.
There is no official O''Reilly Rails book though one is slated for a
July
release (along with a Ruby book too).
>   The
> book qualifies for free shipping and they even have a buy two books, get
one
> free offer.  I will definitely keep O''Reilly in mind when
expanding my Rails
> library.
Its no wonder they are popular.


-- 
A

Justin Forder wrote:
> That looks exactly right... I didn''t know, and there are quite a
few
> O''Reilly books I''ve bought more than one edtion of (I
still have the
> first edition of Java in a Nutshell!).
I probably have more O''Reilly books (incl. multiple editions of
several)
than anyone here :-)


-- 
A

Dave Thomas wrote:
>
> I''d like to think that the beta program adds value to the
community,
> and that even though it hurts our sales of the first edition
> considerably by preannouncing the second edition 5 months out,
we''re
> doing the right thing by you all.
IMHO you are doing the right thing by us all. Still, Pragmatic
Programmers should *not* have to apologize for being a for-profit
organization!
>
> This thread has me worried that perhaps I was naive in this, and
I''m
> distressed that something I thought was good for us all is generating
> so much apparent heartache.
I don''t know who is getting heartaches or indigestion from this. I for
one am glad AWDR II is available -- I bought the PDF-only beta as soon
as I found it had been released.
>
> I''m genuinely sorry that I seem to have caused so much angst---I
> thought folks would actually be excited.
I honestly don''t think anyone on this list should be complaining about
anything associated with Pragmatic Programmers. You made a business
decision. The last time I looked that''s the way our economy operates.

-- 
M. Edward (Ed) Borasky

http://linuxcapacityplanning.com

On 5/7/06, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky <znmeb@cesmail.net>
wrote:
>
>
> Dave Thomas wrote:
> > I''m genuinely sorry that I seem to have caused so much
angst---I
> > thought folks would actually be excited.
> I honestly don''t think anyone on this list should be complaining
about
> anything associated with Pragmatic Programmers. You made a business
> decision. The last time I looked that''s the way our economy
operates.
Not to drag this off topic, but another element of our economy is
consumer opinion.  If consumers don''t like the business decision, they
can speak out.  People might say, "Well if you don''t want it then
just
don''t buy it," but that''s only part of the equation.  We
can choose to
vote with our wallets as well as explain why we''re doing so.

I ended up buying the combo back.  Still, everyone has the right to
criticize the decision if they want to.

Pat

Dave Thomas wrote:
> 
> This thread has me worried that perhaps I was naive in this, and
I''m
> distressed that something I thought was good for us all is generating
> so much apparent heartache.
> 
Dave,

I have the first edition of AWDR - it is a fantastic book and my copy is 
already becoming very well thumbed indeed. I have also bought into the 
PDF beta programme, which is a brilliant idea and very worthwhile, and I 
shall be grabbing a printed copy of the 2nd edition as soon as it hits 
the shelves. I would have taken advantage of the combo offer, but 
shipping charges make it more econonomical for me to buy AWDR II in the 
UK.

Remember that some people will moan no matter what you do for them or 
how hard you try - like any critics they are best ignored. Keep up the 
good work, and my heartfelt thanks both to you and DHH.

Mick Sharpe

-- 
Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.

P.S. How do you spell econonomical? :o

-- 
Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.

Guys,

Can we please lay this thread to rest?

Summary of responses so far:
- it costs too much
- no it doesn''t

It''s PAINFULLY clear there''s dissent on this, and
it''s even more
painfully clear that no-one''s about to change their mind if
they''ve
already made a decision about whether to buy this book or not.

Anyone who hasn''t yet made the decision now has ample info on which to
base their decision.  The PragProg guys also have ample input to let
them decide whether their pricing model is appropriate or not, and
will get more when they look at the sales figures for the 2 versions
going forward.

What exactly do any of us stand to gain by adding our 2c worth at this point?

Regards

Dave M.

On 08/05/06, Pat Maddox <pergesu@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 5/7/06, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky <znmeb@cesmail.net> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Dave Thomas wrote:
> > > I''m genuinely sorry that I seem to have caused so much
angst---I
> > > thought folks would actually be excited.
> > I honestly don''t think anyone on this list should be
complaining about
> > anything associated with Pragmatic Programmers. You made a business
> > decision. The last time I looked that''s the way our economy
operates.
>
> Not to drag this off topic, but another element of our economy is
> consumer opinion.  If consumers don''t like the business decision,
they
> can speak out.  People might say, "Well if you don''t want it
then just
> don''t buy it," but that''s only part of the equation.
We can choose to
> vote with our wallets as well as explain why we''re doing so.
>
> I ended up buying the combo back.  Still, everyone has the right to
> criticize the decision if they want to.
>
> Pat
> _______________________________________________
> Rails mailing list
> Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org
> http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
>

Hi,
I''m a big O''Reilly fan -- but I usually buy their books from
amazon -
usually a bit cheaper and its easier for me...

What is the O''Reilly upgrade policy?

Cheers,
Pat

-----Original Message-----
From: rails-bounces@lists.rubyonrails.org
[mailto:rails-bounces@lists.rubyonrails.org] On Behalf Of Kevin Monceaux
Sent: Sunday, May 07, 2006 12:25 PM
To: rails@lists.rubyonrails.org
Subject: Re: [Rails] Re: [ADV] Second Edition of Agile Web Development
withRails

On Sat, May 06, 2006 at 08:59:03PM -0400, Ajai Khattri wrote:
  
> Ah, but O''Reilly have a nice upgrade policy:
> http://www.oreilly.com/order/upgrade.html
I always did like O''Reilly.  Oddly this is the first I''ve
heard of their
upgrade policy.  Is the upgrade policy only good for true O''Reilly
books
or
for any books purchased from O''Reilly?  I searched for Rails books on
the
O''Reilly site and it appears that AWDR can be purchased from
O''Reilly.
The
book qualifies for free shipping and they even have a buy two books, get
one
free offer.  I will definitely keep O''Reilly in mind when expanding my
Rails
library.


Kevin
http://www.RawFedDogs.net
http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org
Bruceville, TX
_______________________________________________
Rails mailing list
Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org
http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails

David Mitchell wrote:
> Summary of responses so far:
> - it costs too much
> - no it doesn''t
That''s a matter of personal opinion - you can''t speak for
everyone in
the whole community.

So dont.


--

Carl Fyffe wrote:
>
> While you are sifting, I will be reading the answer in my book, saving
> myself time. I bet I save more than $23 worth of my time. How much
> will your sifting cost you?
People keep making statements like the above, but for people who are not 
Rails developers and are trying learn this on their own time the 
argument is meaningless...


-- 
A

Pat Lynch wrote:
> Hi,
> I''m a big O''Reilly fan -- but I usually buy their books
from amazon -
> usually a bit cheaper and its easier for me...
>
> What is the O''Reilly upgrade policy?
Its documented on the URL in that posting.



--

80 posts according to Gmail.

This isn''t actually the worst waste of time I''ve seen in my
life. It
isn''t even the worst waste of time I''ve seen in my inbox this
year.
This one music-related mailing list I used to be on actually got to
106 posts about whether or not you could lose weight by drinking your
own pee.

But honestly, 80 posts?

Yeesh!

--
Giles Bowkett
http://www.gilesgoatboy.org

Dave Thomas wrote:
> I''m genuinely sorry that I seem to have caused so much angst---I
> thought folks would actually be excited.
Angst is good. It shows commitment. What''s bad is unjustified sense of 
entitlement. Let''s face it, no one is entitled to anything here. The 
offer to late buyers of AWDwR1 of free PDF copy ofADWwR2 is an act of 
publisher goodwill. Perhaps motivated by the desire to avert a 
potentially huge backlash if the late buyers were not to be given any 
amelioration at all. But no matter the motivation.

<< the mere act of announcing this book is already
costing
> us money in sales that we would have made on first edition book and
> with returns from bookstores of existing first edition stock.
A promise to book copy buyers of free PDF copy of the beta second 
edition at pre-announcement might have helped stave off the sudden 
drying up of sales. This offer of course would have an effect on future 
cash from the PDF version, but at least the expensive current hard copy 
stock will move, and probably move faster. Maybe not. RoR enthusiasts 
are a savvy breed; they know that six months into the release of the 
book copy, it''s just out of it and perhaps would not even run with the 
latest RoR and the pre-announcement wouldn''t have made much difference 
anyway (I''m guessing here).

The problem here, as I see it, is the fast pace of change in RoR itself, 
exacerbated by what I think is a premature book copy edition. Had there 
been no book copy, the second PDF edition could come out within six 
months, and compensations would be easy to settle, and no returns to 
deal with. While RoR is still vigorously undergoing changes, a plain 
vanilla text hard copy documentation is good enough (for me). After all, 
it''s a Dave Thomas book, and whether it is published by
O''Reilly or
written on napkins, it is a Dave Thomas book.

.02


> On May 5, 2006, at 12:40 PM, Gene Kahn wrote:
> 
>> are an asset -- they believe in the product even if incomplete, if  
>> happy
>> they are effective word-of-mouthers, they provide cash even when the
>> product is unfinished, they provide info to the company of the  
>> interest
>> in the product.
> 
> 
> I''d like to think that the beta program adds value to the
community,
> and that even though it hurts our sales of the first edition
> considerably by preannouncing the second edition 5 months out,
we''re
> doing the right thing by you all.
> 
> Please understand this point: with all this talk about saving $5 on
> an upgrade, the mere act of announcing this book is already costing
> us money in sales that we would have made on first edition book and
> with returns from bookstores of existing first edition stock. We knew
> this going in: we honestly wanted to continue to be a good member of
> the community and go with the beta program despite the financial costs.
> 
> This thread has me worried that perhaps I was naive in this, and
I''m
> distressed that something I thought was good for us all is generating
> so much apparent heartache.
> 
> I''m genuinely sorry that I seem to have caused so much angst---I
> thought folks would actually be excited.
> 
> 
> Dave

-- 
Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.

Ok, now save us some time and tell us whether or wether not we lose weight
by purchaising AWDR2.
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Yeah, but we get rails for free right?

I''ll be honest, I''m only getting the hang of rails so
there''s no
question that I need the Second edition.  This will be my 4th one
including David Black''s "Ruby for Rails".  But I did buy the
Rails
Recipes PDF + hard cover along with the ruby book (at full price since
overseas shipping kills any discount).

I''ll probably buy the PDF + hard copy of Rails 2nd edition as well but
it does hurt my pockets badly being a student abroad.  The PDF feels a
bit expensive no matter how you cut it but the immediacy of info makes
it necessary.

This second edition is a godsend because the first edition is just too
out of date.  I appreciate the effort made by the authors to keep the
literature current in almost real time--rewriting a book must feel
like beating a dead horse for authors that have been there and done
that.

This book will be what introduces rails to the next batch of rails
developers.  The contribution of this will no doubt influence rails
development in the immediate future.

It''s also coming hot on the heels of O''Reilly''s first
release on rails
too.  That speaks for itself.  Hopefully, by the time the third
edition comes out, I''ll be well-versed in the source not to need it or
earn this money back many times over.


Just do me a favor and use this quote from Bill Gates in the second
edition because it is so appropriate and hilarious for the irony:

"Software is providing power, but software has got to provide
simplicity."

Bill Gates, 2006 International Consumer Electronics Show
http://www.microsoft.com/billgates/default.asp





On 5/8/06, Codeblogger <codeblogger@gmail.com>
wrote:
> Ok, now save us some time and tell us whether or wether not we lose weight
> by purchaising AWDR2.
> _______________________________________________
> Rails mailing list
> Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org
> http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
>
>
>

Unfortunately that gives you only 30% off list and discount bookstores
like bookpool.com give you routinely 33% - 50% off list  and you don''t
pay sales tax either.

-bakki

On 5/6/06, Ajai Khattri <ajai@bitblit.net> wrote:
> Ah, but O''Reilly have a nice upgrade policy:
> http://www.oreilly.com/order/upgrade.html

On Mon, May 08, 2006 at 03:23:45AM +0200, Mick Sharpe wrote:
> P.S. How do you spell econonomical? :o
Like many words I spell economical, if that was the word you were trying
for, with the help of:

http://www.dictionary.com


Kevin
http://www.RawFedDogs.net
http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org
Bruceville, TX

Hi Chris, I guess you didn''t understand my comment in whole because I
never
said that it (i.e the book) didn''t support the community.  It should be
logical that it supports the community.  Also, it should be logical as to
how it supports the author.  Next, I disagree with your statement that a
wiki can replace a book.  For example, I take alot of intercontinental
flights where there''s zero internet access.  Thus, I use this time to
read,
design, and implement during these long flights and I''m sure that there
are
others that do the same.  In short, there will allways be need for books
because it allows us to digest information when we cannot be online.

Peace,

-Conrad

On 5/7/06, Chris Schumann <chris@idlelion.net>
wrote:
>
> > Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 15:16:12 -0700
> > From: "Conrad Taylor" <conradwt@gmail.com>
>
> ...
> > various newsgroups.  Chris, you mentioned something about
> > "AWDWR 4/06 update".
> > It sounds like a good idea but are you willing to lead that
> > effort?  Please understand that I''m not trying to pick on
> > anyone on the mailing list.  OK?
>
> I am not willing... nor able at this point. I''m not trying to
complain.
> I''ve
> stated my feeling. I certainly didn''t moan or groan.
>
> Part of my reason to not purchase v2 is that v1 is so very good that I
> just
> won''t need v2 for some time. What a compliment!
>
> I also wrote that I couldn''t think of a better-but-still-practical
way to
> publish new works. Indeed kudos to Dave for even bothering to keep the
> literature up to date on a fast-moving target.
>
> If the rest of us put the same kind of serious effort into the wiki,
> there''d
> be no need for the book.
>
> > Open-source is about contributing towards the project (i.e. rails
> > development) instead of being a backseat driver.  One way of
> > contributing is purchasing some form of the book or providing
> > feedback for it.
>
> I disagree with this point. Buying a book support the author, not the
> community. If that author happens to spend time on improving the software,
> yay for us, but it could just as well be two different people. In fact,
> some
> might see something nefarious about a developer changing code so fast that
> he has to write a book about it twice a year. Me? I''m happy to
have a
> decent
> reference to buy.
>
> Chris
>
> _______________________________________________
> Rails mailing list
> Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org
> http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
>
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