We often refer requesters to the Posting Guide and chide them for not reading it. Recently I had occasion to re-read the Posting Guide which is for all R lists not just R-help. The word "reproducible" does not appear anywhere in the guide. The closest it comes is the following suggestion: "Sometimes it helps to provide a small example that someone can actually run." Recommendations to use the function dput() to provide sample data do not appear in the guide. The bottom of messages to R-help does contain the statement you've all seen, but I had assumed it summarized advice found elsewhere since first time posters may not see the message until after they have posted. "PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code." The Mailing Lists page describes R-help but refers only to the posting guide http://www.r-project.org/mail.html and does not include this advisory statement. The R-help Info Page also refers only to the posting guide https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help and does not include this advisory statement. I hesitate to sound too optimistic, but there might be some advantage in making the statement more prominent and adding a reproducible example using dput(). ---------------------------------------------- David L Carlson Associate Professor of Anthropology Texas A&M University College Station, TX 77843-4352
On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 11:50 AM, David L Carlson <dcarlson at tamu.edu> wrote:> We often refer requesters to the Posting Guide and chide them for not > reading it. Recently I had occasion to re-read the Posting Guide which is > for all R lists not just R-help. The word "reproducible" does not appear > anywhere in the guide. The closest it comes is the following suggestion: > > "Sometimes it helps to provide a small example that someone can actually > run." > > Recommendations to use the function dput() to provide sample data do not > appear in the guide. > > The bottom of messages to R-help does contain the statement you've all seen, > but I had assumed it summarized advice found elsewhere since first time > posters may not see the message until after they have posted. > > "PLEASE do read the posting guide > http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html and provide commented, minimal, > self-contained, reproducible code." > > The Mailing Lists page describes R-help but refers only to the posting guide > http://www.r-project.org/mail.html and does not include this advisory > statement. > > The R-help Info Page also refers only to the posting guide > https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help and does not include this > advisory statement. > > I hesitate to sound too optimistic, but there might be some advantage in > making the statement more prominent and adding a reproducible example using > dput(). > > ---------------------------------------------- > David L Carlson > Associate Professor of Anthropology > Texas A&M University > College Station, TX 77843-4352 > > ______________________________________________ > R-help at r-project.org mailing list > https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help > PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html > and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.I agree that the posting guide is not ideal. On the other hand, the last line of every message to r-help does concisely list what is required. -- Statistics & Software Consulting GKX Group, GKX Associates Inc. tel: 1-877-GKX-GROUP email: ggrothendieck at gmail.com
******************** PLEASE provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code. Whenever possible, provide a small example that can be easily loaded and run to illustrate your problem. The R function dput() should generally be used to do this. For a more complete discussion of how to post queries that will yield accurate, helpful responses, refer to the posting guide at http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html. ********************* I agree. Perhaps slightly modifying the message and moving it to the top as I have done here (please feel free to edit as appropriate) would be useful. This might have the psychological advantage of making it painfuly obvious to OP's and readers when they have not followed the recommendations. Might be worth a try and seems like something that would be easy to do. Cheers, Bert On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 8:50 AM, David L Carlson <dcarlson at tamu.edu> wrote:> We often refer requesters to the Posting Guide and chide them for not > reading it. Recently I had occasion to re-read the Posting Guide which is > for all R lists not just R-help. The word "reproducible" does not appear > anywhere in the guide. The closest it comes is the following suggestion: > > "Sometimes it helps to provide a small example that someone can actually > run." > > Recommendations to use the function dput() to provide sample data do not > appear in the guide. > > The bottom of messages to R-help does contain the statement you've all seen, > but I had assumed it summarized advice found elsewhere since first time > posters may not see the message until after they have posted. > > "PLEASE do read the posting guide > http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html and provide commented, minimal, > self-contained, reproducible code." > > The Mailing Lists page describes R-help but refers only to the posting guide > http://www.r-project.org/mail.html and does not include this advisory > statement. > > The R-help Info Page also refers only to the posting guide > https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help and does not include this > advisory statement. > > I hesitate to sound too optimistic, but there might be some advantage in > making the statement more prominent and adding a reproducible example using > dput(). > > ---------------------------------------------- > David L Carlson > Associate Professor of Anthropology > Texas A&M University > College Station, TX 77843-4352 > > ______________________________________________ > R-help at r-project.org mailing list > https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help > PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html > and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.-- Bert Gunter Genentech Nonclinical Biostatistics Internal Contact Info: Phone: 467-7374 Website: http://pharmadevelopment.roche.com/index/pdb/pdb-functional-groups/pdb-biostatistics/pdb-ncb-home.htm
On Jul 25, 2012, at 8:50 AM, David L Carlson wrote:> We often refer requesters to the Posting Guide and chide them for not > reading it. Recently I had occasion to re-read the Posting Guide > which is > for all R lists not just R-help. The word "reproducible" does not > appear > anywhere in the guide. The closest it comes is the following > suggestion: > > "Sometimes it helps to provide a small example that someone can > actually > run." > > Recommendations to use the function dput() to provide sample data do > not > appear in the guide.The absence of dput from the PG is a bit surprisong, but an equivalent bit of advice does appear: "When providing examples, it is best to give an R command that constructs the data, as in the matrix() expression above. For more complicated data structures, dump("x", file=stdout()) will print an expression that will recreate the object x. " -- David.> > The bottom of messages to R-help does contain the statement you've > all seen, > but I had assumed it summarized advice found elsewhere since first > time > posters may not see the message until after they have posted. > > "PLEASE do read the posting guide > http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html and provide commented, > minimal, > self-contained, reproducible code." > > The Mailing Lists page describes R-help but refers only to the > posting guide > http://www.r-project.org/mail.html and does not include this advisory > statement. > > The R-help Info Page also refers only to the posting guide > https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help and does not include this > advisory statement. > > I hesitate to sound too optimistic, but there might be some > advantage in > making the statement more prominent and adding a reproducible > example using > dput(). > > ---------------------------------------------- > David L Carlson > Associate Professor of Anthropology > Texas A&M University > College Station, TX 77843-4352 > > ______________________________________________ > R-help at r-project.org mailing list > https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help > PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html > and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.David Winsemius, MD Heritage Laboratories West Hartford, CT
On 07/26/2012 01:50 AM, David L Carlson wrote:> We often refer requesters to the Posting Guide and chide them for not > reading it. >... > I hesitate to sound too optimistic, but there might be some advantage in > making the statement more prominent and adding a reproducible example using > dput(). >The reponses to some requests for help do seem to get a volley of the "reproducible code" answers. Some, such as: I can't get the answer. PLEASE HELP!!! probably deserve it, but others appear to emerge from the overheated brain of the frustrated noob. With a wonderfully informative name like "dput", it is rather challenging to guess that this function is the way to calm the affronted guru with an example of your problem. I am particularly amused by the phrase "reproducible code", which sounds perilously close to the definition of a virus. Perhaps the neglected little message at the bottom of each email (which seems to reproduce itself) might be easier for the uninitiated to understand if it read: Please include the R code that is causing the problem _and_ enough data (see the "dput" function) for someone else to run the code and get the same problem. I can remember when I didn't know that there was a "dput" function. Jim
> -----Original Message----- > From: jim at bitwrit.com.au > Sent: Fri, 27 Jul 2012 19:21:36 +1000 > To: dcarlson at tamu.edu > Subject: Re: [R] On Reproducible Code > > On 07/26/2012 01:50 AM, David L Carlson wrote: >> We often refer requesters to the Posting Guide and chide them for not >> reading it. > >... >> I hesitate to sound too optimistic, but there might be some advantage in >> making the statement more prominent and adding a reproducible example >> using >> dput(). >> > The reponses to some requests for help do seem to get a volley of the > "reproducible code" answers. Some, such as: > > I can't get the answer. PLEASE HELP!!! > > probably deserve it, but others appear to emerge from the overheated > brain of the frustrated noob. With a wonderfully informative name like > "dput", it is rather challenging to guess that this function is the way > to calm the affronted guru with an example of your problem. I am > particularly amused by the phrase "reproducible code", which sounds > perilously close to the definition of a virus. Perhaps the neglected > little message at the bottom of each email (which seems to reproduce > itself) might be easier for the uninitiated to understand if it read: > > Please include the R code that is causing the problem _and_ enough data > (see the "dput" function) for someone else to run the code and get the > same problem. > > I can remember when I didn't know that there was a "dput" function. > > JimI can remember spending a lot of time constructing a data set to post before someone mentioned ?dput. Ah, yes, I still have a couple of generic ones archived. I think your wording above makes a lot of sense. ____________________________________________________________ GET FREE SMILEYS FOR YOUR IM & EMAIL - Learn more at http://www.inbox.com/smileys Works with AIM?, MSN? Messenger, Yahoo!? Messenger, ICQ?, Google Talk? and most webmails
I'd vote for that! It would probably bug the blazes out of experienced users but the time savings in getting a newbie to actually supply enough information so that someone can, at least, try to answer the question would be well worth it. John Kane Kingston ON Canada> -----Original Message----- > From: gunter.berton at gene.com > Sent: Fri, 27 Jul 2012 07:49:28 -0700 > To: jrkrideau at inbox.com > Subject: Re: [R] On Reproducible Code > > I agree and would like to see it placed at the **TOP** of every post. > > -- Bert > > On Fri, Jul 27, 2012 at 7:11 AM, John Kane <jrkrideau at inbox.com> wrote: >> >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: jim at bitwrit.com.au >>> Sent: Fri, 27 Jul 2012 19:21:36 +1000 >>> To: dcarlson at tamu.edu >>> Subject: Re: [R] On Reproducible Code >>> >>> On 07/26/2012 01:50 AM, David L Carlson wrote: >>>> We often refer requesters to the Posting Guide and chide them for not >>>> reading it. >>> >... >>>> I hesitate to sound too optimistic, but there might be some advantage >>>> in >>>> making the statement more prominent and adding a reproducible example >>>> using >>>> dput(). >>>> >>> The reponses to some requests for help do seem to get a volley of the >>> "reproducible code" answers. Some, such as: >>> >>> I can't get the answer. PLEASE HELP!!! >>> >>> probably deserve it, but others appear to emerge from the overheated >>> brain of the frustrated noob. With a wonderfully informative name like >>> "dput", it is rather challenging to guess that this function is the way >>> to calm the affronted guru with an example of your problem. I am >>> particularly amused by the phrase "reproducible code", which sounds >>> perilously close to the definition of a virus. Perhaps the neglected >>> little message at the bottom of each email (which seems to reproduce >>> itself) might be easier for the uninitiated to understand if it read: >>> >>> Please include the R code that is causing the problem _and_ enough data >>> (see the "dput" function) for someone else to run the code and get the >>> same problem. >>> >>> I can remember when I didn't know that there was a "dput" function. >>> >>> Jim >> I can remember spending a lot of time constructing a data set to post >> before someone mentioned ?dput. Ah, yes, I still have a couple of >> generic ones archived. >> >> I think your wording above makes a lot of sense. >> >> ____________________________________________________________ >> GET FREE SMILEYS FOR YOUR IM & EMAIL - Learn more at >> http://www.inbox.com/smileys >> Works with AIM?, MSN? Messenger, Yahoo!? Messenger, ICQ?, Google Talk? >> and most webmails >> >> ______________________________________________ >> R-help at r-project.org mailing list >> https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help >> PLEASE do read the posting guide >> http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html >> and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code. > > > > -- > > Bert Gunter > Genentech Nonclinical Biostatistics > > Internal Contact Info: > Phone: 467-7374 > Website: > http://pharmadevelopment.roche.com/index/pdb/pdb-functional-groups/pdb-biostatistics/pdb-ncb-home.htm____________________________________________________________ FREE 3D EARTH SCREENSAVER - Watch the Earth right on your desktop!
On Fri, Jul 27, 2012 at 6:47 PM, Hadley Wickham <hadley at rice.edu> wrote:> I'd argue that both assumptions are false. People are particular well > trained to skip over boilerplate text at the bottom of emails.One day the list owner will subtly change the boilerplate text at the bottom of R-help emails and nobody will notice.> ______________________________________________ > R-help at r-project.org mailing list > https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help > PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html > and give the list maintainer all your money and jewels and nobody will get hurt.-- blog: http://geospaced.blogspot.com/ web: http://www.maths.lancs.ac.uk/~rowlings web: http://www.rowlingson.com/ twitter: http://twitter.com/geospacedman pics: http://www.flickr.com/photos/spacedman
> -----Original Message----- > From: b.rowlingson at lancaster.ac.uk > Sent: Sat, 28 Jul 2012 00:01:14 +0100 > To: hadley at rice.edu > Subject: Re: [R] On Reproducible Code > > On Fri, Jul 27, 2012 at 6:47 PM, Hadley Wickham <hadley at rice.edu> wrote: > >> I'd argue that both assumptions are false. People are particular well >> trained to skip over boilerplate text at the bottom of emails. > > One day the list owner will subtly change the boilerplate text at the > bottom of R-help emails and nobody will notice. >Not 1 necessarily so. I glance at it occasionally while deleting it. John Kane Kingston ON Canada>> ______________________________________________ >> R-help at r-project.org mailing list >> https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help >> PLEASE do read the posting guide >> http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html >> and give the list maintainer all your money and jewels and nobody will >> get hurt. > > > > -- > blog: http://geospaced.blogspot.com/ > web: http://www.maths.lancs.ac.uk/~rowlings > web: http://www.rowlingson.com/ > twitter: http://twitter.com/geospacedman > pics: http://www.flickr.com/photos/spacedman____________________________________________________________ FREE 3D MARINE AQUARIUM SCREENSAVER - Watch dolphins, sharks & orcas on your desktop!