[Sorry about the duplicate posting; this one comes from the correct address. Please respond to me with any questions about this -- David.] Dear R-help readers, As Insightful announced at the DSC2005 meeting in Seattle, the next release of S-PLUS will introduce a new package system. Our goal is to provide package authors the means to create cutting-edge statistical methods currently available either as R packages or as S-PLUS library sections and deliver them to the entire community of S-PLUS and R users. In this release of S-PLUS, we plan to implement many low-level utility functions with the same API as R. Just as many R functions originated in S-PLUS, we plan on re-implementing many R functions in S-PLUS to provide S-PLUS users the ability to create packages of their work and distribute them to others as R users have done for many years. In the future, we expect package authors will be able to create a single package that will run in both environments. The actual package system would be a port of the R package system code, which furthers the exchangeability of S-PLUS and R code. The ported code will be available in a GPL library called Rcompat To demonstrate that R packages can now be ported to S-PLUS, we have - with the permissions of the authors - ported several R packages to run as S-PLUS packages. We are planning to make these packages available for download from an Insightful-hosted website (called csan.insightful.com for consistency with the CRAN site of R packages). The license terms of the source packages will always be respected, and these packages will all be available under their original open-source license. Any improvements to open-source packages, whether by Insightful or by others, will remain open-source. Our intent will be to grow the list of open-source, cross-system-compatible packages over time. While most existing R packages will not run automatically in S-PLUS, with some effort, a user should be able to port an existing R package to an S-PLUS package. More important, by using functions and interfaces now available in both systems, a user should be able to create a single package that will run in both S-PLUS and R in the future. (The judicious use of some system-specific if(is.R()) statement will help to this end.) As a proof of concept, we are developing a package that will run on both systems. In the future, we hope to post this package on both CSAN and CRAN sites. We are also working to provide S-PLUS library sections from our research group as S-PLUS packages that would also work in R. Our work on the S-PLUS package functionality is ongoing. We expect to begin beta testing in April. We invite R package authors who are interested in testing their packages in S-PLUS to participate in the beta test. As a beta participant, you will receive a beta version of S-PLUS that will be fully functional until the end of the beta period. You will also be able to send input to the development team regarding the S-PLUS package system. If you are a package author, and you are interested in participating in the beta test, see the full details on the S-PLUS 8 beta test and complete the registration form at the Insightful website: http://www.insightful.com/support/splus8beta/ Best regards from the S-PLUS product management team, Patrick Aboyoun (S-PLUS Platform) Michael O'Connell (Life Sciences) David Smith (Finance) -- David M Smith <dsmith at insightful.com> Senior Product Manager, Insightful Corp, Seattle WA Tel: +1 (206) 802 2360 Fax: +1 (206) 283 6310
This is an excellent initiative! But how can you integrate GPL code in a software that is not GPL? As far as I understand it, GPL is a contaminant license, imposing to the whole software to be GPL too (or providing at least similar freedom). I have no doubt that you solved this problem. I am just curious about the solution you found. Best regards, Philippe Grosjean ..............................................<?}))><........ ) ) ) ) ) ( ( ( ( ( Prof. Philippe Grosjean ) ) ) ) ) ( ( ( ( ( Numerical Ecology of Aquatic Systems ) ) ) ) ) Mons-Hainaut University, Pentagone (3D08) ( ( ( ( ( Academie Universitaire Wallonie-Bruxelles ) ) ) ) ) 8, av du Champ de Mars, 7000 Mons, Belgium ( ( ( ( ( ) ) ) ) ) phone: + 32.65.37.34.97, fax: + 32.65.37.30.54 ( ( ( ( ( email: Philippe.Grosjean at umh.ac.be ) ) ) ) ) ( ( ( ( ( web: http://www.umh.ac.be/~econum ) ) ) ) ) http://www.sciviews.org ( ( ( ( ( .............................................................. David Smith wrote:> [Sorry about the duplicate posting; this one comes from the correct address. > Please respond to me with any questions about this -- David.] > > Dear R-help readers, > > As Insightful announced at the DSC2005 meeting in Seattle, the next > release of S-PLUS will introduce a new package system. Our goal is to provide > package authors the means to create cutting-edge statistical methods > currently available either as R packages or as S-PLUS library sections and > deliver them to the entire community of S-PLUS and R users. > > In this release of S-PLUS, we plan to implement many low-level > utility functions with the same API as R. Just as many R functions originated > in S-PLUS, we plan on re-implementing many R functions in S-PLUS to provide > S-PLUS users the ability to create packages of their work and distribute them > to others as R users have done for many years. In the future, we expect > package authors will be able to create a single package that will run in both > environments. The actual package system would be a port of the R package > system code, which furthers the exchangeability of S-PLUS and R code. The > ported code will be available in a GPL library called Rcompat > > To demonstrate that R packages can now be ported to S-PLUS, we have - > with the permissions of the authors - ported several R packages to run as > S-PLUS packages. We are planning to make these packages available for > download from an Insightful-hosted website (called csan.insightful.com for > consistency with the CRAN site of R packages). The license terms of the > source packages will always be respected, and these packages will all be > available under their original open-source license. Any improvements to > open-source packages, whether by Insightful or by others, will remain > open-source. Our intent will be to grow the list of open-source, > cross-system-compatible packages over time. > > While most existing R packages will not run automatically in S-PLUS, > with some effort, a user should be able to port an existing R package to an > S-PLUS package. More important, by using functions and interfaces now > available in both systems, a user should be able to create a single package > that will run in both S-PLUS and R in the future. (The judicious use of some > system-specific if(is.R()) statement will help to this end.) As a proof of > concept, we are developing a package that will run on both systems. In the > future, we hope to post this package on both CSAN and CRAN sites. We are also > working to provide S-PLUS library sections from our research group as S-PLUS > packages that would also work in R. > > Our work on the S-PLUS package functionality is ongoing. We expect to > begin beta testing in April. We invite R package authors who are interested > in testing their packages in S-PLUS to participate in the beta test. As a > beta participant, you will receive a beta version of S-PLUS that will be > fully functional until the end of the beta period. You will also be able to > send input to the development team regarding the S-PLUS package system. If > you are a package author, and you are interested in participating in the beta > test, see the full details on the S-PLUS 8 beta test and complete the > registration form at the Insightful website: > > > http://www.insightful.com/support/splus8beta/ > > > Best regards from the S-PLUS product management team, > > Patrick Aboyoun (S-PLUS Platform) > Michael O'Connell (Life Sciences) > David Smith (Finance) > > -- > David M Smith <dsmith at insightful.com> > Senior Product Manager, Insightful Corp, Seattle WA > Tel: +1 (206) 802 2360 > Fax: +1 (206) 283 6310 > > ______________________________________________ > R-help at stat.math.ethz.ch mailing list > https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help > PLEASE do read the posting guide! http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html > >
The GPL code is available as separately-downloaded packages for S-PLUS, as has been done for many years. My own Oswald library for S-PLUS was published under the GPL in 1997, for example, and many other authors produce open-source libraries for S-PLUS under a variety of licenses. The only difference is that they will be packaged as, well, packages rather than libraries. # David Smith -- David M Smith <dsmith at insightful.com> Senior Product Manager, Insightful Corp, Seattle WA Tel: +1 (206) 802 2360 Fax: +1 (206) 283 6310 Insightful Corporation (www.insightful.com) provides analytical solutions for text and data using S-PLUS, Insightful Miner, InFact and consulting services.> -----Original Message----- > From: Philippe Grosjean [mailto:phgrosjean at sciviews.org] > Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2006 1:06 PM > To: David Smith > Cc: r-help at stat.math.ethz.ch > Subject: Re: [R] S-PLUS 8 beta program [repost] > > > This is an excellent initiative! But how can you integrate > GPL code in a > software that is not GPL? As far as I understand it, GPL is a > contaminant license, imposing to the whole software to be GPL too (or > providing at least similar freedom). I have no doubt that you solved > this problem. I am just curious about the solution you found. > Best regards, > > Philippe Grosjean > > ..............................................<?}))><........ > ) ) ) ) ) > ( ( ( ( ( Prof. Philippe Grosjean > ) ) ) ) ) > ( ( ( ( ( Numerical Ecology of Aquatic Systems > ) ) ) ) ) Mons-Hainaut University, Pentagone (3D08) > ( ( ( ( ( Academie Universitaire Wallonie-Bruxelles > ) ) ) ) ) 8, av du Champ de Mars, 7000 Mons, Belgium > ( ( ( ( ( > ) ) ) ) ) phone: + 32.65.37.34.97, fax: + 32.65.37.30.54 > ( ( ( ( ( email: Philippe.Grosjean at umh.ac.be > ) ) ) ) ) > ( ( ( ( ( web: http://www.umh.ac.be/~econum > ) ) ) ) ) http://www.sciviews.org > ( ( ( ( ( > .............................................................. > > David Smith wrote: > > [Sorry about the duplicate posting; this one comes from the > correct address. > > Please respond to me with any questions about this -- David.] > > > > Dear R-help readers, > > > > As Insightful announced at the DSC2005 meeting in > Seattle, the next > > release of S-PLUS will introduce a new package system. Our > goal is to provide > > package authors the means to create cutting-edge statistical methods > > currently available either as R packages or as S-PLUS > library sections and > > deliver them to the entire community of S-PLUS and R users. > > > > In this release of S-PLUS, we plan to implement many low-level > > utility functions with the same API as R. Just as many R > functions originated > > in S-PLUS, we plan on re-implementing many R functions in > S-PLUS to provide > > S-PLUS users the ability to create packages of their work > and distribute them > > to others as R users have done for many years. In the > future, we expect > > package authors will be able to create a single package > that will run in both > > environments. The actual package system would be a port of > the R package > > system code, which furthers the exchangeability of S-PLUS > and R code. The > > ported code will be available in a GPL library called Rcompat > > > > To demonstrate that R packages can now be ported to > S-PLUS, we have - > > with the permissions of the authors - ported several R > packages to run as > > S-PLUS packages. We are planning to make these packages > available for > > download from an Insightful-hosted website (called > csan.insightful.com for > > consistency with the CRAN site of R packages). The license > terms of the > > source packages will always be respected, and these > packages will all be > > available under their original open-source license. Any > improvements to > > open-source packages, whether by Insightful or by others, > will remain > > open-source. Our intent will be to grow the list of open-source, > > cross-system-compatible packages over time. > > > > While most existing R packages will not run > automatically in S-PLUS, > > with some effort, a user should be able to port an existing > R package to an > > S-PLUS package. More important, by using functions and > interfaces now > > available in both systems, a user should be able to create > a single package > > that will run in both S-PLUS and R in the future. (The > judicious use of some > > system-specific if(is.R()) statement will help to this > end.) As a proof of > > concept, we are developing a package that will run on both > systems. In the > > future, we hope to post this package on both CSAN and CRAN > sites. We are also > > working to provide S-PLUS library sections from our > research group as S-PLUS > > packages that would also work in R. > > > > Our work on the S-PLUS package functionality is > ongoing. We expect to > > begin beta testing in April. We invite R package authors > who are interested > > in testing their packages in S-PLUS to participate in the > beta test. As a > > beta participant, you will receive a beta version of S-PLUS > that will be > > fully functional until the end of the beta period. You will > also be able to > > send input to the development team regarding the S-PLUS > package system. If > > you are a package author, and you are interested in > participating in the beta > > test, see the full details on the S-PLUS 8 beta test and > complete the > > registration form at the Insightful website: > > > > > > http://www.insightful.com/support/splus8beta/ > > > > > > Best regards from the S-PLUS product management team, > > > > Patrick Aboyoun (S-PLUS Platform) > > Michael O'Connell (Life Sciences) > > David Smith (Finance) > > > > -- > > David M Smith <dsmith at insightful.com> > > Senior Product Manager, Insightful Corp, Seattle WA > > Tel: +1 (206) 802 2360 > > Fax: +1 (206) 283 6310 > > > > ______________________________________________ > > R-help at stat.math.ethz.ch mailing list > > https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help > > PLEASE do read the posting guide! > http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html > > > > > >
David Smith wrote:> The GPL code is available as separately-downloaded packages for S-PLUS, as > has been done for many years. My own Oswald library for S-PLUS was published > under the GPL in 1997, for example, and many other authors produce > open-source libraries for S-PLUS under a variety of licenses. The only > difference is that they will be packaged as, well, packages rather than > libraries. > > # David SmithThank you for the explanation. The fact that GPL code is distributed *separately* from S-PLUS is the key point here. PhG
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eugene dalt [eugenedalt at yahoo.com] writes:> It seems to me that Insightful is very good at > protecting whatever they "create" and the same time > feels very comfortable taking R stuff to keep they > clients happy. In essence they are selling free stuff.I must defend Insightful on this point. As an employee of Insightful, that's to be expected, but I've also been an author of free software since the earliest days when the term "free software" was in use ... but more on that, later. In no sense are we "taking R stuff" with these improvements in S-PLUS 8. Packages written for R will remain free, as they must. This isn't just because the license says so, but because we believe that an open-source community around packages that will run with both S-PLUS and R is a good thing. It's good for S-PLUS users, certainly: we've heard loud and clear from our users that they need a better way to package user-contributed libraries for S-PLUS, and they need access to the cutting-edge, quality statistical software available in the open-source world. But it's also good for the statistical computing community generally. In the open source spirit of "many eyes", the more people using and improving open source software, from both the S-PLUS and R communities (or, generally, the S community), the better. You say, "In essence they are selling free stuff." I say, au contraire. First of all, the distinction between "free-as-in-speech" and "free-as-in-beer" is important here, and it's the former context that is generally meant in reference to "free software". (For further background on this, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_as_in_beer and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libre_software.) As it happens, the free-as-in-speech packages we're porting to S-PLUS will also be available free-as-in-beer from an Insightful-hosted site. In fact, as part of the S-PLUS 8 project we've put significant investment into making free software available to a wider community. We put packages though the same test that CRAN does, and as we find and fix bugs in the porting process, we're contributing those back to the community as open-source. We're also planning to provide an new package for both S-PLUS and R, as a further contribution to the community. Personally, I'm very excited about this new role for Insightful as a member of the open-source community. Ultimately, it's only through our actions that our sincerity will be judged. All I ask is that those actions are be characterized faithfully. # David -- David M Smith <dsmith at insightful.com> Senior Product Manager, Insightful Corp, Seattle WA Tel: +1 (206) 802 2360 Fax: +1 (206) 283 6310 Insightful Corporation (www.insightful.com) provides analytical solutions for text and data using S-PLUS, Insightful Miner, InFact and consulting services.
On 3/31/06, eugene dalt <eugenedalt at yahoo.com> wrote:> In addition, I think people should always explore ways > to repackage exclusive S-Plus facilities and libraries > into R. By rewritting them or using GPL loopholes.Licenses are important. They state for the author, precisely what the author intends. Just because it's not really what the author might want, is a different story. The GPL has no loopholes. It does precisely what it is supposed to do, which it to provide free-as-in-speech software, which maintains that freedom. Read it; love it; use it :-). I do. Take BioConductor, which isn't GPL (it would've been by my choice, which is what I argued for when we released it the first time). The intent was for others to use it, and not be forced to "share" the changes. I went along with that, fully aware of what I was going to be contributing to.> It seems to me that Insightful is very good at > protecting whatever they "create" and the same time > feels very comfortable taking R stuff to keep they > clients happy. In essence they are selling free stuff.Packaging is worth something. It's why folks pay for Linux distributions. I'm very happy that Insightful packages up "free stuff". I wish they'd do it better and add incredible amounts of value to S-PLUS, so that it could truly compete with R. There are some really nice facilities that R doesn't have, and probably will never have. But it's still missing key features. And I'm happy that they are finally listening to comments (I can't claim to be the only one that suggested this over 7 years ago -- I also can't claim to be a user (again), until my new job; but it's nice that it took them less than a decade). best, -tony blindglobe at gmail.com Muttenz, Switzerland. "Commit early,commit often, and commit in a repository from which we can easily roll-back your mistakes" (AJR, 4Jan05).
> Point well taken. You should, however, expect R users > to bring up concerns.Indeed, and I encourage them to do so.> This isn't a win-win situation as you sound...and you want > to keep s-news in the dark too.As far as I can tell, your messages never appeared on s-news. Perhaps you're not a member of that list? (It has a closed posting policy.) Besides, cross-posting is rarely good form, and the topic seems more relevant here.> Frankly, you didn't address the real issue. How would > Insightful reacts for example if they find R users > repackaging your products named "Infact" or > "Insightful Miner"? or as you said R users (instead of > Splus users) "need access to the cutting-edge, quality > statistical software available>> in Splus (instead of > other way round).Open software is produced under a social (and through the license, a legal) contract: in exchange for the promise to maintain the freedom of the software, all are entitled to use it and improve it. The Insightful products you mention are produced under a different kind of contract -- a proprietary license -- and the revenues from that license pay for its further development. Greater minds than mine have debated the merits of the two kinds of contract, and I shan't get into that here. But just as a call to violate the open source contract would rightly be outrageous to those that produce software under that model, the converse is equally true.> ps. This is my last email on this issue.Then I thank you for the opportunity of the last word. # David Smith -- David M Smith <dsmith at insightful.com> Senior Product Manager, Insightful Corp, Seattle WA Tel: +1 (206) 802 2360 Fax: +1 (206) 283 6310 Insightful Corporation (www.insightful.com) provides analytical solutions for text and data using S-PLUS, Insightful Miner, InFact and consulting services.> -----Original Message----- > From: eugene dalt [mailto:eugenedalt at yahoo.com] > Sent: Friday, March 31, 2006 1:51 PM > To: r-help at stat.math.ethz.ch; s-news at wubios.wustl.edu > Cc: David Smith > Subject: RE: [R] S-PLUS 8 beta program [repost] > > > Point well taken. You should, however, expect R users > to bring up concerns. This isn't a win-win situation > as > you sound...and you want to keep s-news in the dark > too. > > Frankly, you didn't address the real issue. How would > Insightful reacts for example if they find R users > repackaging your products named "Infact" or > "Insightful Miner"? or as you said R users (instead of > Splus users) "need access to the cutting-edge, quality > statistical software available>> in Splus (instead of > other way round). > > Insightful wants to take any "cutting-edge, quality > statistical software" from R, but they patent any > "cutting-edge, quality statistical software" they > create. Hence my call to people to use any loopholes > to make these available or rewrite them. That would be > win-win. > > ps. This is my last email on this issue.