llvm dev - Jul 2016 - Suggestion to Stop Cross Posting Discussions

On 7 July 2016 at 03:39, Chris Lattner <clattner at apple.com>
wrote:
> Sorry, I meant to say that issues like “move to github” would be on topic
for the list.  The addition of a new mailing list certainly doesn’t affect how
key decisions in the project are made.
Perfect! I'm glad everyone is in agreement. I think it makes sense to
move those things out of the dev list and to make it clear that, if
you care about the project/s, you should be on that list. :)

cheers,
--renato

On Thu, Jul 7, 2016 at 2:28 AM Renato Golin via llvm-dev <
llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote:
> On 7 July 2016 at 03:39, Chris Lattner <clattner at apple.com> wrote:
> > Sorry, I meant to say that issues like “move to github” would be on
> topic for the list.  The addition of a new mailing list certainly doesn’t
> affect how key decisions in the project are made.
>
> Perfect! I'm glad everyone is in agreement. I think it makes sense to
> move those things out of the dev list and to make it clear that, if
> you care about the project/s, you should be on that list. :)
>
FWIW, I'm not in agreement.

I think having yet another mailing list is a dramatically worse solution
than simply fixing our mailing list system to allow subscribers to any of
the lists post to all of the lists.

I've used a wide variety of email clients over the years and they've all
been capable of ensuring I only get one copy of emails sent to multiple
mailing lists.

That said, if everyone is both adamant that we cannot simply solve the
technological problem here and we must do *something*, then I'll tolerate
yet another mailing list.

I suspect it will mostly result in an increase in the amount of email we
all receive because of the number of "heads up" and "go look at
this other
list" emails that become required due to people not realizing they need to
subscribe to this extra list. =[

-Chandler
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On 9 July 2016 at 03:55, Chandler Carruth <chandlerc at gmail.com>
wrote:
> I've used a wide variety of email clients over the years and
they've all
> been capable of ensuring I only get one copy of emails sent to multiple
> mailing lists.
I don't have that problem either.

> That said, if everyone is both adamant that we cannot simply solve the
> technological problem here and we must do *something*, then I'll
tolerate
> yet another mailing list.
>From a pragmatic point of view, adding another mailing list will do
little to increase maintenance.

It would require you to add a new filter, but it would also allow
people to use different filter by list, not subject/body, which has a
lot more false-positives.

> I suspect it will mostly result in an increase in the amount of email we
all
> receive because of the number of "heads up" and "go look at
this other list"
> emails that become required due to people not realizing they need to
> subscribe to this extra list. =[
We already have that problem with the commits list and it solves
itself in due time.

Having the list setup you mention does not preclude having another
list. They're reasonably orthogonal issues, and actually, setting up
the lists so that emails can be cross-posted, or trickle down
sub-lists would also encourage having multiple lists. Filtering is *a
lot* easier if you do have them.

Also, the argument of "missing emails" can be said for a high-traffic
& mostly irrelevant content (to certain people). I already filter some
of the lists by content and mark everything else as "read", so in that
sense, I'm already losing content.

Personally, I don't mind nor I'm convinced either way, I'm just
trying
to understand both sides.

cheers,
--renato

On 9 Jul 2016, at 03:55, Chandler Carruth via llvm-dev <llvm-dev at
lists.llvm.org> wrote:
> 
> I think having yet another mailing list is a dramatically worse solution
than simply fixing our mailing list system to allow subscribers to any of the
lists post to all of the lists.
I believe that allowing cross-posting would only solve half of the problem.  We
have two issues:

- Some discussions don’t have a single well-defined home.

- Some members of the wider community don’t subscribe to any of the lists
because they’re too high-traffic and so miss out on things that are relevant to
them

Alex’s LLVM Weekly is currently the closest thing that we have to a solution to
the latter one, but it’s unidirectional.  It’s good as a ‘heads up, this is
happening in LLVM land’, but it doesn’t give people a good way to say ‘actually,
as a downstream consumer this will hurt us a lot, is there an alternative?’

David


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> On Jul 8, 2016, at 9:55 PM, Chandler Carruth via llvm-dev <llvm-dev at
lists.llvm.org> wrote:
> 
>> On Thu, Jul 7, 2016 at 2:28 AM Renato Golin via llvm-dev <llvm-dev
at lists.llvm.org> wrote:
>> On 7 July 2016 at 03:39, Chris Lattner <clattner at apple.com>
wrote:
>> > Sorry, I meant to say that issues like “move to github” would be
on topic for the list.  The addition of a new mailing list certainly doesn’t
affect how key decisions in the project are made.
>> 
>> Perfect! I'm glad everyone is in agreement. I think it makes sense
to
>> move those things out of the dev list and to make it clear that, if
>> you care about the project/s, you should be on that list. :)
> 
> FWIW, I'm not in agreement.
> 
> I think having yet another mailing list is a dramatically worse solution
than simply fixing our mailing list system to allow subscribers to any of the
lists post to all of the lists.
The big problem I see with this is you'd also need to modify the mailing
system to ensure that all replies on the thread CC the off-list people who
contribute to it. That gets really complicated when threads go through renaming
or get munged by mail clients not respecting MIME headers.

I think an "llvm-project" mailing list that implicitly includes
everyone on all the "*-dev" lists is a reasonably safe solution to the
problem, even if it does mean one more mailing list to filter.

-Chris
> 
> I've used a wide variety of email clients over the years and
they've all been capable of ensuring I only get one copy of emails sent to
multiple mailing lists.
> 
> That said, if everyone is both adamant that we cannot simply solve the
technological problem here and we must do *something*, then I'll tolerate
yet another mailing list.
> 
> I suspect it will mostly result in an increase in the amount of email we
all receive because of the number of "heads up" and "go look at
this other list" emails that become required due to people not realizing
they need to subscribe to this extra list. =[
> 
> -Chandler
> _______________________________________________
> LLVM Developers mailing list
> llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org
> http://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev
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