llvm dev - Jul 2016 - Suggestion to Stop Cross Posting Discussions

> On Jul 8, 2016, at 9:55 PM, Chandler Carruth via llvm-dev <llvm-dev at
lists.llvm.org> wrote:
> 
>> On Thu, Jul 7, 2016 at 2:28 AM Renato Golin via llvm-dev <llvm-dev
at lists.llvm.org> wrote:
>> On 7 July 2016 at 03:39, Chris Lattner <clattner at apple.com>
wrote:
>> > Sorry, I meant to say that issues like “move to github” would be
on topic for the list.  The addition of a new mailing list certainly doesn’t
affect how key decisions in the project are made.
>> 
>> Perfect! I'm glad everyone is in agreement. I think it makes sense
to
>> move those things out of the dev list and to make it clear that, if
>> you care about the project/s, you should be on that list. :)
> 
> FWIW, I'm not in agreement.
> 
> I think having yet another mailing list is a dramatically worse solution
than simply fixing our mailing list system to allow subscribers to any of the
lists post to all of the lists.
The big problem I see with this is you'd also need to modify the mailing
system to ensure that all replies on the thread CC the off-list people who
contribute to it. That gets really complicated when threads go through renaming
or get munged by mail clients not respecting MIME headers.

I think an "llvm-project" mailing list that implicitly includes
everyone on all the "*-dev" lists is a reasonably safe solution to the
problem, even if it does mean one more mailing list to filter.

-Chris
> 
> I've used a wide variety of email clients over the years and
they've all been capable of ensuring I only get one copy of emails sent to
multiple mailing lists.
> 
> That said, if everyone is both adamant that we cannot simply solve the
technological problem here and we must do *something*, then I'll tolerate
yet another mailing list.
> 
> I suspect it will mostly result in an increase in the amount of email we
all receive because of the number of "heads up" and "go look at
this other list" emails that become required due to people not realizing
they need to subscribe to this extra list. =[
> 
> -Chandler
> _______________________________________________
> LLVM Developers mailing list
> llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org
> http://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev
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On Mon, Jul 11, 2016 at 3:34 PM Chris Bieneman via llvm-dev <
llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote:
>
> On Jul 8, 2016, at 9:55 PM, Chandler Carruth via llvm-dev <
> llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote:
>
> On Thu, Jul 7, 2016 at 2:28 AM Renato Golin via llvm-dev <
> llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote:
>
>> On 7 July 2016 at 03:39, Chris Lattner <clattner at apple.com>
wrote:
>> > Sorry, I meant to say that issues like “move to github” would be
on
>> topic for the list.  The addition of a new mailing list certainly
doesn’t
>> affect how key decisions in the project are made.
>>
>> Perfect! I'm glad everyone is in agreement. I think it makes sense
to
>> move those things out of the dev list and to make it clear that, if
>> you care about the project/s, you should be on that list. :)
>>
>
> FWIW, I'm not in agreement.
>
> I think having yet another mailing list is a dramatically worse solution
> than simply fixing our mailing list system to allow subscribers to any of
> the lists post to all of the lists.
>
>
> The big problem I see with this is you'd also need to modify the
mailing
> system to ensure that all replies on the thread CC the off-list people who
> contribute to it. That gets really complicated when threads go through
> renaming or get munged by mail clients not respecting MIME headers.
>
> I think an "llvm-project" mailing list that implicitly includes
everyone
> on all the "*-dev" lists is a reasonably safe solution to the
problem, even
> if it does mean one more mailing list to filter.
>
FWIW, having it automatically be the union of *-dev list members would
somewhat reduce my concerns about "yet another mailing list". It would
become just a mechanical way to simulate cross-posting.

That said, I expect cross-posting to continue when there are issues of
shared interest to a subset of the projects. The classical examples are
clang/llvm interactions, but I can't imagine they're the only issues.

So even if we have an llvm-project list or anything similar, I'd really
love it if we could fix the immediate pain felt by admins in the face of
cross-posting.
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ffs - Would /you/ (more than 1) stop bikesheding everything to death and
just agree that a developer list should be for development only issues. Go
make noise on -commits

WE NEED YET ANOTHER MAILING LIST TO LET THESE LONG "ALT" DISCUSSIONS
ONLY
IMPACT THE PEOPLE WHO CARE.

At this time - I have no mechanism to filter non-developer stuff.

If adding another list causes you great pain and suffering, maybe the
middle ground could be a hard enforcement of tagging the subject.

Any of the following may be appropriate:
[SPAM]
[INFRA]
[TROLLBAIT]
[BIKESHED]
------------
Do any of "you" remember the mailing list policies from the 90's?
Stuff
like top posting, trimming your post and actually treating everyone on the
like you would family. That's ideally how things should be. One big happy
family. Do one thing and do it well. The -dev list isn't a catch-all just
because it has the biggest impact for whatever trollbait of the day.

Outside of crying, has anyone raised a valid point against creating a
specialized list for -alt or -infra topics? Anyone who would want to vote
on project level impacting issues is free to subscribe there. Anyone not
subscribed would be equivalent to not registering to vote. (Thus I don't
see how it's a valid concern - it's not like the proposed list would be
private)



On Tue, Jul 12, 2016 at 6:43 AM, Chandler Carruth via llvm-dev <
llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 11, 2016 at 3:34 PM Chris Bieneman via llvm-dev <
> llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote:
>
>>
>> On Jul 8, 2016, at 9:55 PM, Chandler Carruth via llvm-dev <
>> llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote:
>>
>> On Thu, Jul 7, 2016 at 2:28 AM Renato Golin via llvm-dev <
>> llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On 7 July 2016 at 03:39, Chris Lattner <clattner at
apple.com> wrote:
>>> > Sorry, I meant to say that issues like “move to github” would
be on
>>> topic for the list.  The addition of a new mailing list certainly
doesn’t
>>> affect how key decisions in the project are made.
>>>
>>> Perfect! I'm glad everyone is in agreement. I think it makes
sense to
>>> move those things out of the dev list and to make it clear that, if
>>> you care about the project/s, you should be on that list. :)
>>>
>>
>> FWIW, I'm not in agreement.
>>
>> I think having yet another mailing list is a dramatically worse
solution
>> than simply fixing our mailing list system to allow subscribers to any
of
>> the lists post to all of the lists.
>>
>>
>> The big problem I see with this is you'd also need to modify the
mailing
>> system to ensure that all replies on the thread CC the off-list people
who
>> contribute to it. That gets really complicated when threads go through
>> renaming or get munged by mail clients not respecting MIME headers.
>>
>> I think an "llvm-project" mailing list that implicitly
includes everyone
>> on all the "*-dev" lists is a reasonably safe solution to the
problem, even
>> if it does mean one more mailing list to filter.
>>
>
> FWIW, having it automatically be the union of *-dev list members would
> somewhat reduce my concerns about "yet another mailing list". It
would
> become just a mechanical way to simulate cross-posting.
>
> That said, I expect cross-posting to continue when there are issues of
> shared interest to a subset of the projects. The classical examples are
> clang/llvm interactions, but I can't imagine they're the only
issues.
>
> So even if we have an llvm-project list or anything similar, I'd really
> love it if we could fix the immediate pain felt by admins in the face of
> cross-posting.
>
> _______________________________________________
> LLVM Developers mailing list
> llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org
> http://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev
>
>
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