CentOS - May 2005 - RE: pronunciation? -- loving CentOS doesn't mean you have to bash Red Hat

From: Martyn Drake <martyn at drake.org.uk>
> When I did try that support, it didn't give me a favourable 
> impression.  However, that's just my opinion.
It's good enough that HP is losing lots of clients because HP (among
other tier-1 OEMs short of IBM) is finding that Linux their support
is sub-par.  Even Dell and others are just farming support out to
Red Hat.
> Others wil no doubt have really benefitted from it.  What I really
> needed was the errata and updates rather than support,
The Fedora Core and Legacy do a fine job for several years.
Just not 5+ years like RHEL or SLES.  Other than the Debian Project,
I've yet to see another distro break 2 years of support.

Red Hat used to support the last ".2" for a long time.  Unfortunately,
by RHL7, they got very popular.  Companies where standardizing on
".1" and even, gasp, ".0" relesaes.  At one point Red Hat
was supporting
Red Hat Linux 6.2, 7[.0], 7.1, 7.2, 7.3, 8.0 and 9 _simultaneously_.

That was overkill and a waste.

I like the current Core-Legacy strategy now.  Basically the latest 2 versions
are supported as "current," and the Legacy team supports the most
popular
of the old versions.  Companies who want more than 1 year of guaranteed
updates on any arbitrary version can now pay for it.
> and an overall better overall lifecycle that RHEL promises and indeed,
> delivers.   I could have gone down the Fedora route, but wasn't too
> thrilled with it's overall lifecycle.
How was it any different than when Red Hat announced it would no longer
support Red Hat Linux more than 1 year _well_before_ the Fedora Project
was announced or Red Hat Linux became Fedora Core?

I honestly don't blame Red Hat for not wanting to simultaneously support
6-7 revisions simultaneously.  Dead beat companies who want to standardize
on a release for 2+ years should pay for it.  Those of us who either "keep
current" _or_ use a very stable/popular release (e.g., Red Hat Linux 7.3,
or Fedora Core 1) can stick with Fedora Legacy instead.
> I'm a non-commercial user (but neither a charity or educational 
> establishment) and that $300 per year is a lot of money to pay for a 
> stable and constantly updated OS.
You are paying for subscription, not a license.  If you don't want the
subscription, run a stable version of Fedora Core that will be supported
by Fedora Legacy for a long time.  That's what I do with my Fedora Core
1 systems.
> You could argue I could use Debian or some other free distribution,
Debian, like Fedora, is supported on contributors, in addition to the
commercial companies that put paid development on it.  Fedora Core
is still primarily developed by Red Hat because Red Hat Enterprise
Linux's stability is based on it.  As such, a lot of Fedora Legacy packages
are released by people at Red Hat along side RHEL package releases
(although they are often in "testing" because it's up to the
community
to support them).

I have no problem with this sub-1 year "official" support model, and
it
was announced well before the "name change."  Red Hat got tired of
expecting people them to support their free product for 3+ years.
> but having been a Red Hat Linux user for many years it's what I know
> best and feel the most comfortable around.
You're talking to someone who started on Yggdrasil and, later, Slackware,
and has been installing Red Hat Linux on corporate networks for more than
just web services since Red Hat Linux 4.2.  I have installed both RHEL
as well as RHL/FC at financial companies.  I've put a lot of Fedora Core
into pilot production, and then when SLAs were required, we switched to
RHEL.

FC also makes a great "next RHEL generation" evaluation platform, and
thanx to Fedora Core 2/3 deployments, many of my clients were able to
evaluate how RHEL 4 would operate well in advance.
> Now I didn't actually mind PAYING for RHEL, of course not, but I just 
> find they need to find a sweet spot price for those that may not need 
> the install/configuration support (like me),
Haven't you see the $99 Red Hat Professional Workstation / Red Hat
Desktop at your local CompUSA?  It's RHEL WS in a shrink wrap package.
> or the SLAs, but want the lifecycle the product delivers and the stability
> it offers.  Is $340 per year worth it for that?
Actually, subscriptions are just $179/year.  I haven't checked to see if
it's only $99 for people who buy the retail shrink-wrapped version at
CompUSA or other superstores.
> I was paying ???65 a year for the RHN for the last available versions of 
> the Red Hat Linux and that suited me just fine.  That price is now 
> ???184, and includes features I don't actually need or want.
Again, check out your local CompUSA and look for the shrink wrapped
version of RHEL WS for $99.  ;->

As Michael Tiemann said (and was mis-quoted), at the volume right now,
it is cheaper to give away their time in developing Fedora Core and not
charging for it than to make a boxed product like Red Hat Linux.  The
expectations of support at the volume they sell is just not worth their
bother.  It's cheaper to give away Fedora Core and support it for less
than a year, even if they still put people on Fedora Legacy and release
updates for longer than that based on popularity and testing support
(which they leave to the community).

And I don't blame them.
> Of course CentOS has now came along, and that's meeting my needs just 
> fine.  Hence why I'm more than happy to make the odd donation when I
can.
And that's great!  But just don't feel the need to demonize Red Hat at
the
same time.
> I'm not bashing Red Hat.  Bashing Red Hat would be something along the 
> lines of "Red Hat sucks; they've done nothing for the community; 
> they're just another greedy organisation" which would be wrong on
all
> accounts.  Red Hat is also a business and needs to be profitable like 
> any other business.  I recognise that. I also recognise what they've 
> done for the community as well.  They are a good company.
Okay.  But don't make statements like the one you did then.  ;->
> I'm sorry to have come across 'bashing' Red Hat.  Not my
intention,
> most definately.
Understood.


--
Bryan J. Smith   mailto:b.j.smith at ieee.org

Bryan J. Smith <b.j.smith at ieee.org> wrote:
> It's good enough that HP is losing lots of clients because HP (among
> other tier-1 OEMs short of IBM) is finding that Linux their support
> is sub-par.  Even Dell and others are just farming support out to
> Red Hat.
Yes, I can quite believe that! :)
> The Fedora Core and Legacy do a fine job for several years.
> Just not 5+ years like RHEL or SLES.  Other than the Debian Project,
> I've yet to see another distro break 2 years of support.
> 
> Red Hat used to support the last ".2" for a long time. 
Unfortunately,
> by RHL7, they got very popular.  Companies where standardizing on
> ".1" and even, gasp, ".0" relesaes.  At one point Red
Hat was supporting
> Red Hat Linux 6.2, 7[.0], 7.1, 7.2, 7.3, 8.0 and 9 _simultaneously_.
I'll come onto explaining why I've become a bit sensitive about this a 
few paragraphs down.  But yes, I can imagine that Red Hat was a bit 
sick of providing support for so many different versions.
> How was it any different than when Red Hat announced it would no longer
> support Red Hat Linux more than 1 year _well_before_ the Fedora Project
> was announced or Red Hat Linux became Fedora Core?
To be quite honest with you - that's been and gone so quickly I can't 
ever remember what my position was at that time.  I seem to remember 
it had something to do with Progeny and them supporting the releases 
as part of their transition solution.
> I honestly don't blame Red Hat for not wanting to simultaneously
support
> 6-7 revisions simultaneously.  Dead beat companies who want to standardize
> on a release for 2+ years should pay for it.  Those of us who either
"keep
> current" _or_ use a very stable/popular release (e.g., Red Hat Linux
7.3,
> or Fedora Core 1) can stick with Fedora Legacy instead.
Of course, very sensible indeed.
> You are paying for subscription, not a license.  If you don't want the
> subscription, run a stable version of Fedora Core that will be supported
> by Fedora Legacy for a long time.  That's what I do with my Fedora Core
> 1 systems.
Usually I've gone down the route of using dedicated server providers 
that can supply RHEL with the system.  What prompted me to buy my own 
subscription was that there were at least two providers that had 
issues with getting their RHN satellites/proxies/whatever working and 
left the machine in a potentially vunerable state if their install 
image was a fair a bit old.
> I have no problem with this sub-1 year "official" support model,
and it
> was announced well before the "name change."  Red Hat got tired
of
> expecting people them to support their free product for 3+ years.
Again, I've no problems with this whatsoever.  I just wish I could 
have purchased a cheaper service with less frills.
> You're talking to someone who started on Yggdrasil and, later,
Slackware,
> and has been installing Red Hat Linux on corporate networks for more than
> just web services since Red Hat Linux 4.2.  I have installed both RHEL
> as well as RHL/FC at financial companies.  I've put a lot of Fedora
Core
> into pilot production, and then when SLAs were required, we switched to
> RHEL.
Yggdrasil was my first too.  I then worked my way up to Caldera (spit! 
spit! spit!) but found my footing and went over to Red Hat from that 
point onwards.  These days I help look after many render farm boxes 
and workstations running a combination of Red Hat 7.2 and Fedora Core 
1.  We're still converting to FC1 and it's a long and laborious 
process given the number of machines that need updating.  From that 
point we'll then going to have to look at 64bit support.  Much of our 
needs are dictated by the software we run, and our vendors will only 
support certain distributions.  Which is why Studio Linux 
http://www.studio-linux.org was born.
> FC also makes a great "next RHEL generation" evaluation platform,
and
> thanx to Fedora Core 2/3 deployments, many of my clients were able to
> evaluate how RHEL 4 would operate well in advance.
Oh indeed, it's been very useful in the whole evaluation process.
> Haven't you see the $99 Red Hat Professional Workstation / Red Hat
> Desktop at your local CompUSA?  It's RHEL WS in a shrink wrap package.
Difficult since we don't have CompUSA here in the UK ;)
> Again, check out your local CompUSA and look for the shrink wrapped
> version of RHEL WS for $99.  ;->
The last time I saw a shrink-wrapped Red Hat anything was back in the 
days of RH 7, 8 and 9.  I even bought some of them to support Red Hat.
> Okay.  But don't make statements like the one you did then.  ;->
I'll be good.

Regards,

	Martyn