asterisk users - Nov 2003 - FAQ, Documentation, How-to, etc

Nov 19, 2003
To Everyone on this list...

What's been suggested for a FAQ and other "much needed
information" for such
a _HIGHLY_ technical software product has been proven thousands of times in
the past few months. Even an untrained monkey can see that, including many
geeks. Those that are against it are the very _few_ arrogant self-centered 
egotistical few that think their middle initials are VoIP. It would be very 
easy to publish a list of such names on this list and only consume a half-inch 
of email space (even with Outlook Express in bold print, heaven forbid). And, 
their first names do not start with Mark either (Everyone, please note
Mark's
political absence from this somewhat "hot" topic; excellent posture.)

The majority of recent postings to the list are, without a doubt, coming
from folks that have just recently found an app they believe in and would
like to try it. But the arrogant _few_ (about 3, if someone's counting)
consistently discourage these same people with "did you search the
archives"
or "any dumb fxxx" should know that; just read the code!!! If I see
one more
post from those same arrogant <people>, I'm tempted to build an army
<of you
know what> and see how well their business and customers stand up to the DS3 
<pressure>. (For the arrogant few, substitute the best-known very-well-
understood words that you can come up with in between <>. It shouldn't
take more then a couple of Crayons to color between the lines.)

A minimum of ten years of Internet history has already proven that sharing
information is a very positive thing. Yet, on "this" list and with
this product,
the overwhelming objective by those that have a clue is to _not_ share the
intricacies of how to accomplish basic telephony functions. Most of us do
understand why a couple of cookie-Krums (intended) are scattered around
though!!!

There has been several attempts by _many_ to help document the product, but 
even _that_ effort has been consistently undermined by a select _few_. 
Until knowledge and experiences are shared <openly>, the product will
likely
remain in its present state. (Sorry Mark!)
 
For those that have actually read this far, please express your honest opinion
as they're truly are some people lurking that want to learn and can impact 
the negativity that is so common on this list.

For those that are new to the list and don't understand the frustration,
please
disregard.

Rich Adamson wrote:
> For those that have actually read this far, please express your honest
opinion
> as they're truly are some people lurking that want to learn and can
impact
> the negativity that is so common on this list.
I'd say that James and Olle have done one hell of a job on the wiki 
site. so much wonderful info is up there already; and if something's 
not, it goes up there even as people are discussing it on the list.

cheers to all who've contributed their knowledge, and cheers to those 
who've organized it!

most of what I needed to know to get up and running, I found from or 
through the wiki site. the rest of it came from searching the user and 
dev lists, naturally.

I can see that it becomes repetitious and even burdensome when totally 
new users come in asking the same things day after day. but not everyone 
is as good at digging up information, so it only makes sense to codify 
and centralize it.

if there's to be some official FAQ, why could its URL not simply be 
added to the ML's standard sig that comes on every message? and if not...
http://www.voip-info.org/wiki-Asterisk is all I have to say.

++dg

On Wednesday 19 November 2003 19:35, Rich Adamson wrote:
> What's been suggested for a FAQ and other "much needed
information"
> for such a _HIGHLY_ technical software product has been proven
> thousands of times in the past few months. Even an untrained monkey
> can see that, including many geeks. Those that are against it are the
> very _few_ arrogant self-centered egotistical few that think their
> middle initials are VoIP. It would be very easy to publish a list of
> such names on this list and only consume a half-inch of email space
> (even with Outlook Express in bold print, heaven forbid). And, their
Or those who have seen such messages half a day earlier and seven
times in the past week and are getting really tired of answering the
same questions over and over and over.  It's not a problem isolated to
these lists, either, and some very smart people have tried (and failed)
to address these problems in the past with other lists.
> first names do not start with Mark either (Everyone, please note
> Mark's political absence from this somewhat "hot" topic;
excellent
> posture.)
Mark's time is extremely valuable to the community, and thus, it seems
he ignores most of the really stupid questions, questions that could be
answered by anybody applying the least bit of effort.  Really, I rarely
use the site:digium.com specifier to searching the asterisk mailing
lists; usually, applying the keyword "asterisk" to the search tends to
net nearly equal results.
> The majority of recent postings to the list are, without a doubt,
> coming from folks that have just recently found an app they believe
> in and would like to try it. But the arrogant _few_ (about 3, if
> someone's counting) consistently discourage these same people with
> "did you search the archives" or "any dumb fxxx" should
know that;
If my count is correct, most of these "arrogant" people are
contributing
developers.  Insult them, drive them away, and you will have harmed
the community.
> just read the code!!! If I see one more post from those same arrogant
> <people>, I'm tempted to build an army <of you know what>
and see how
> well their business and customers stand up to the DS3 <pressure>.
This is neither here nor there, but under the Patriot Act, you have just
committed an act of domestic terrorism.  No, I'm not going to report you
to the FBI, but you should really think about making such threats in the
future.  It is not conducive to settling any differences and is more
likely to widen the apparent rift in the Asterisk community.

<snip>
> A minimum of ten years of Internet history has already proven that
> sharing information is a very positive thing. Yet, on "this" list
and
> with this product, the overwhelming objective by those that have a
> clue is to _not_ share the intricacies of how to accomplish basic
> telephony functions. Most of us do understand why a couple of
> cookie-Krums (intended) are scattered around though!!!
Because many of the developers have moved on to introduce
new features into Asterisk and are annoyed by people who cannot
lift a finger to help themselves, but expect to be spoonfed
knowledge.  Yes, the most appropriate response is simply to ignore
them, but sometimes, the question is simply repeated a few days
later, with confusion on the part of the sender why nobody
responded initially to their message.
> There has been several attempts by _many_ to help document the
> product, but even _that_ effort has been consistently undermined by a
> select _few_. Until knowledge and experiences are shared <openly>,
> the product will likely remain in its present state. (Sorry Mark!)
I'm afraid the _official_ documentation effort has been largely a failure:

http://lists.digium.com/pipermail/asterisk-users/2002-December/006700.html
(beware wrap)

The Wiki has arisen from a need within the community, it is not restricted
in distribution (although redistributing a Wiki isn't easy anyway), and
judging from its growth in a few short weeks, dwarfing the existing
documentation, it is a great success.
> For those that have actually read this far, please express your
> honest opinion as they're truly are some people lurking that want to
> learn and can impact the negativity that is so common on this list.
>
> For those that are new to the list and don't understand the
> frustration, please disregard.
No, to people new on the list, please do NOT disregard.  Learning to
ask questions intelligently, by showing even a modicum of the attempt
to help yourself is likely to produce far more friendly or, at the very
least, polite responses.  It's unfortunate that this same message can't
be directed to _every_ new person who joins the list, because once
this message goes out to the list, it will remain in the archives, and we
know how often some newbies search the archives.

To be clear, I am not attacking all newbies.  Even a few of the worst
offenders learn from their mistakes and move on to be developers of
new and interesting features.

-Tilghman

On Wed, 19 Nov 2003, Rich Adamson wrote:
> their first names do not start with Mark either (Everyone, please note
Mark's
> political absence from this somewhat "hot" topic; excellent
posture.)
simple because he's got much better things to do with his time ...
> post from those same arrogant <people>, I'm tempted to build an
army <of you
> know what> and see how well their business and customers stand up to the
DS3
> <pressure>. (For the arrogant few, substitute the best-known
very-well-
> understood words that you can come up with in between <>. It
shouldn't
> take more then a couple of Crayons to color between the lines.)
what an immature "script-kiddy" response, those "arrogant
few" are
probably those "few" who contribute meaningful code to the project,
hurt
them and you hurt us all, the community and * ... it'd be a bad move
> A minimum of ten years of Internet history has already proven that sharing
> information is a very positive thing. Yet, on "this" list and
with this product,
> the overwhelming objective by those that have a clue is to _not_ share the
> intricacies of how to accomplish basic telephony functions. Most of us do
> understand why a couple of cookie-Krums (intended) are scattered around
though!!!
sharing information, means putting information out, it does not mean 
taking every new kid on the block through a paid, hand-fed education, 

how much effort is there to open google, THERE IS TONS of documentation on
* now, READ and understand, its simple, hundreds if not thousands have
done this before, so can you ...
> There has been several attempts by _many_ to help document the product, but
> even _that_ effort has been consistently undermined by a select _few_. 
not at all, i think the voip-info guy is doing a great job, and this all
start with tilghman's code snippits amongst other back when you REALLY
couldn't find documentation, other than what was on asterisk.org now the
list of available docs, codes, snippits, examples is long and getting
better week by week, not to mention discussed in infinite detail on the 
ML(s)
> Until knowledge and experiences are shared <openly>, the product will
likely
> remain in its present state. (Sorry Mark!)
great, the product rocks currently, and will only improve, regardless of 
your DOOMSDAY prediction
> For those that have actually read this far, please express your honest
opinion
> as they're truly are some people lurking that want to learn and can
impact
> the negativity that is so common on this list.
> 
> For those that are new to the list and don't understand the
frustration, please
> disregard.
No, don't disregard, learn, you're being told for your own benefit,
learn
to help your self, learn to google, learn to READ, and then ASK ... i'd 
much rather have the "Arrogant Few" putting out more code and features
rather than answering mails on "how do i dial out?"

- wasim

On Wed, 2003-11-19 at 19:35, Rich Adamson wrote:
> Nov 19, 2003
> To Everyone on this list...
> 
> What's been suggested for a FAQ and other "much needed
information" for such
> a _HIGHLY_ technical software product has been proven thousands of times in
> the past few months. Even an untrained monkey can see that, including many
> geeks. Those that are against it are the very _few_ arrogant self-centered 
> egotistical few that think their middle initials are VoIP. It would be very
> easy to publish a list of such names on this list and only consume a
half-inch
> of email space (even with Outlook Express in bold print, heaven forbid).
And,
> their first names do not start with Mark either (Everyone, please note
Mark's
> political absence from this somewhat "hot" topic; excellent
posture.)
I think you are trying to make more of an issue out of this than there
is. I don't think you have seen anyone here try and stand in the way of
a FAQ, just in the regular mailing of one to the entire group.
> The majority of recent postings to the list are, without a doubt, coming
> from folks that have just recently found an app they believe in and would
> like to try it. But the arrogant _few_ (about 3, if someone's counting)
> consistently discourage these same people with "did you search the
archives"
> or "any dumb fxxx" should know that; just read the code!!! If I
see one more
> post from those same arrogant <people>, I'm tempted to build an
army <of you
> know what> and see how well their business and customers stand up to the
DS3
> <pressure>. (For the arrogant few, substitute the best-known
very-well-
> understood words that you can come up with in between <>. It
shouldn't
> take more then a couple of Crayons to color between the lines.)
As this is probably directed at me, at least in part, I should point out
that the effort to share information had to have been put forth before
it was available in the archives. Maybe we would do well with a trained
monkey as a interface to google for those that don't want to do it
themselves. 

Simple questions tend to get answered very abruptly. Interesting, harder
questions get more time and effort. While it isn't an excuse to be rude,
and I know I can be from time to time, everyone would do well to read
this page or at least the "Before you Ask" section.
http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html



I'll skip responding to the rest as Tilghman has made a great response
to it.
-- 
Steven Critchfield <critch@basesys.com>

Tilghman Lesher wrote:
> No, to people new on the list, please do NOT disregard.  Learning to
> ask questions intelligently, by showing even a modicum of the attempt
> to help yourself is likely to produce far more friendly or, at the very
> least, polite responses.
I have to say, I agree with just about all Tilghman said, and the above 
sums it up quite neatly.

as an asterisk neophyte myself, I certainly have sympathy for others in 
the same situation; conversely, I feel at least a mild annoyance when I 
see people asking about things that are fairly clear in the 
documentation, in the expectation that this list is a resource along the 
lines of some magic answering device.

tragedy of the commons is not always easily avoided, clear. 
developers/contributors/etc. are not gods, but simple courtesy is due, 
if not respect.

however: I think some effort should be made to make people more aware of 
the resources available. the fact that various ways of searching the 
list archives have been mentioned (too) many times, says to me that that 
information needs to be centralized and made obvious (even if it already 
seems obvious to some of us). so put it in a FAQ, and make that FAQ 
glaringly obvious. in addition, put a courteous reminder in  said FAQ to 
the effect that we all of us need to be conscientious in our treatment 
of public resources such as this list. put that FAQ in the list 
subscribe welcome message or the list sig or the asterisk README or 
handbook or all of the above...and then if people ignore such basic 
documentation as that, sure they probably deserve a little derision.

++dg

As a newcommer I can say that saying things like "Check the archive"
and
whatnot do not help at all when your first exposure to the subject thread is 
someone saying "It's already been answered, check the archive" and
that
message is 6 months old!  Worst of all there are no hints on searching for 
this information.  You know in such situations it's helpful to say something
like this instead, "Ya this topic was discussed a few months ago and the 
outcome was XYZ and So and So started the thread, or the thread title was 
BLA"  Now reading something like that in the archive does wonders towards 
directing further research!

I also think a simple Telco <-> Computer Networking translation guide
might
help some people with the new language of telco.

Just some of my observations.

-Andrew

On Wednesday 19 November 2003 17:35, Rich Adamson wrote:
> Nov 19, 2003
> To Everyone on this list...
>
> What's been suggested for a FAQ and other "much needed
information" for
> such a _HIGHLY_ technical software product has been proven thousands of
> times in the past few months. Even an untrained monkey can see that,
> including many geeks. Those that are against it are the very _few_ arrogant
> self-centered egotistical few that think their middle initials are VoIP. It
> would be very easy to publish a list of such names on this list and only
> consume a half-inch of email space (even with Outlook Express in bold
> print, heaven forbid). And, their first names do not start with Mark either
> (Everyone, please note Mark's political absence from this somewhat
"hot"
> topic; excellent posture.)
>
> The majority of recent postings to the list are, without a doubt, coming
> from folks that have just recently found an app they believe in and would
> like to try it. But the arrogant _few_ (about 3, if someone's counting)
> consistently discourage these same people with "did you search the
> archives" or "any dumb fxxx" should know that; just read the
code!!! If I
> see one more post from those same arrogant <people>, I'm tempted
to build
> an army <of you know what> and see how well their business and
customers
> stand up to the DS3 <pressure>. (For the arrogant few, substitute the
> best-known very-well- understood words that you can come up with in between
> <>. It shouldn't take more then a couple of Crayons to color
between the
> lines.)
>
> A minimum of ten years of Internet history has already proven that sharing
> information is a very positive thing. Yet, on "this" list and
with this
> product, the overwhelming objective by those that have a clue is to _not_
> share the intricacies of how to accomplish basic telephony functions. Most
> of us do understand why a couple of cookie-Krums (intended) are scattered
> around though!!!
>
> There has been several attempts by _many_ to help document the product, but
> even _that_ effort has been consistently undermined by a select _few_.
> Until knowledge and experiences are shared <openly>, the product will
> likely remain in its present state. (Sorry Mark!)
>
> For those that have actually read this far, please express your honest
> opinion as they're truly are some people lurking that want to learn and
can
> impact the negativity that is so common on this list.
>
> For those that are new to the list and don't understand the
frustration,
> please disregard.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Asterisk-Users mailing list
> Asterisk-Users@lists.digium.com
> http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users

Just a had to put in a few points on this...

	First, it is correct that there is no cause to be rude, either by repling
rudely or posting without doing any research.  I think that a response
directing them to the proper resources is better than not responding at all.

	Second, one of the main problems has been documenatation as everyone knows.
As one of the people suggesting a wiki several months back, I am thankful to
those who have hosted/maintained/posted.  Searching the mailing list
archives can be futile in a lot of cases because it can be to
tedious/laborious to find an answer in a timeframe that is practical.  This
is why we need the wiki.  I would suggest that we start refering them to the
wiki as well as the mailing list. Props to Olle & BKW for responding with
their docs.

	Lastly, I'm not sure that the footer idea will work at all.  It is doubtful
that the people asking the questions in question will read the footer.  The
idea is to put links to the documentation, wiki, unofficial * pages and
instructions BEFORE the mailing list stuff on the Asterisk support page.
Other wise many will not even see it much less take the time to read it.  I
believe Critch suggested something like this in a thread a few days ago. ie
you can only post after you've read the instructions or something.

Snip

With the exception of I don't know how hard it is to setup, I wouldn't
mind this going to a semi moderated group. RO access requires little
intervention. Basically it is the default. Posting requires a quick read
of the FAQ with a quick push through a small and to the point netiquete
page, and then maybe a 2 or 3 question pop quiz afterwords. After that,
release the posting restriction. It is fairly minimalistic, and
shouldn't get too in the way of users who want to lurk and read first.

Snip


	We as a community have made great strides from even a few months backas far
as docs goes, I think we just need to make sure it gets out there and then
if people still ask questions without research, we can turn Critch loose on
'em. ;)



Sincerely,
Andy Hester

Hi folks,