asterisk users - Feb 2007 - To use asterisk or proprietary hardware, that is the questio

>From: "shadowym" <shadowym@hotmail.com>
>Reply-To: Asterisk Users Mailing List - Non-Commercial 
>Discussion<asterisk-users@lists.digium.com>
>To: "'Asterisk Users Mailing List - Non-Commercial 
>Discussion'"<asterisk-users@lists.digium.com>
>Subject: RE: [asterisk-users] To use asterisk or proprietary hardware,that 
>is the question
>Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 20:42:21 -0800
>
>Thanks Tom and everyone else,
>
>Based largely on your comments I decided to just stick with what works.  I
>have a site using entry level ATX server hardware that has been solid as a
>rock.  I'll just go with that instead of more specialized fanless
hardware,
>specialized power supply and 2.5" hard drives etc.  Maybe get a second
>motherboard as a spare of they go for the ongoing remote support option.
>
>I'll do some simple things like a put in a standby hard drive with the
>production image on it in case the primary drive fails.  The case has hot
>swap SATA bays so if the primary drive fails or get's corrupted anyone
can
>just swap drives and they will be back up just like that.  I'll make
remote
>offsite backups as well.
>
>Thanks for all the help.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Tom [mailto:tom@ispstuff.com]
>Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2007 5:01 PM
>To: Asterisk Users Mailing List - Non-Commercial Discussion
>Subject: Re: [asterisk-users] To use asterisk or proprietary hardware,that
>is the question
>
>At 11:53 AM 2/24/2007, you wrote:
> >
> >Hi there,
> >
> >Here is my dilema.  I have a new small business customer that wants me
> >to put in a VoIP phone system for them.  Based on their requirements, I
> >have determined that it needs to be a "set it and forget it"
type of
> >thing like a lot of small business proprietary systems.
>
>There is no such thing as set and forget.  Businesses change.  They either
>grow or shrink, they don't stand still.  They will add and remove
phones.
>So they will call you at that time.  Or are you expecting them to shop for
>their own phones on Ebay?
>
>
> >At the same time they would like to be able to do minor dial plan
> >changes themselves so I have determine that a GUI like FreePBX or
> >similar alternative (free or commercial) is appropriate.
>
>We take a different approach.  We don't want a GUI.  We don't want
the
>limits.  We work with the business to design their dial plan.  Then we 
>write
>it.  We do not give them a GUI because we don't want them making changes
>and
>then asking for support.
>
>We sell them a minor service agreement and remote in for any changes.  We
>also handle professional voice recording and basic training on phone use.
>And we handle backups and service if needed.  Once they understand that we
>can do that without a service call, they are quite receptive to the idea.
>
>Conventional PBXs come with service agreements so customers are used to 
>that
>but surprised at the low cost from you.
>
>
> >I have some concerns about using Asterisk for this. As much as I am in
> >support of the whole Asterisk revolution, I just do not feel confident
> >enough in Asterisk on a Hard Drive as a "set it and forget
it" setup
>running
> >month after month, year after year.  I am hoping someone can convince
me
> >otherwise.
>
>Hard drives are reliable.  But I have similar feelings so we are
>working on a flash solution.  Were running it beta in our office
>right now. It only uses the hard drive for daily voicemail, boots
>from flash and runs from RAM.
>
> >I'm concerned about hard drive corruptions/failures, memory
> >leaks, software bugs etc.
>
>Conventional systems have bugs too.
>
> >  I have the budget to buy good quality hardware so
> >if I was to go with Asterisk I would go industrial grade fanless 
>computer,
> >power conditioned UPS etc.
>
>You don't really need fanless.  Make it cheap enough that it can
>easily be replaced.  Like a $500 PC.
>
> >I am not concerned about the reliability of most
> >of the hardware.  It's the hard drive and the software that runs on
it
>that
> >worries me.  I will obviously use a mature stable Asterisk release and 
>the
> >most stable Linux version which I won't bother naming just to keep
the
> >discussion focussed.
>
>Asterisk is pretty darn stable.
>
>
> >I have other Asterisk installs that went well but they were in 
>environments
> >where there were IT people around who were prepared to deal with some 
>Linux
> >administration and I could provide ongoing support for more major
things.
> >That is not the case here.  Some of those sites have been running for
>months
> >untouched, some needed some updates and reboots for various issues.  I
>don't
> >think this customer would look very favorably on me having to come in
and
> >add patches or have to reboot once a month or whatever.
>
>So do it from home.  And how often do you really need to upgrade a
>minimal  read only flash based system with no dev tools running from
>RAM?  Does the latest kernel really matter?
>
> >   Their expection is
> >the same as they would have with any other phone system that mounts on 
>the
> >wall and "just works" for years.  I think that is a
reasonable
>expectation.
>
>Agreed.  And if it breaks, you replace it quickly and at a low cost.
>
> >I am looking at putting in an Epygi proprietary VoIP system in instead.
>It
> >is mostly hardware based although apparently runs Linux.  It has a GUI,
>is
> >supposedly plug and play most of the time, and most importantly, does
not
> >use a Hard Drive.  I have heard good things about them so for arguments
> >sake, let's assume voice quality, features, and the enduser
experience
>are
> >approximately the same as using an Asterisk/Analog FXO Card/hardware
echo
> >cancel solution.  Flexibility, scalability, upgradeability are
non-issues
> >because the requirements are fixed.  The Eqygi will end up costing a
few
> >hundred dollars more but for arguments sake let's assume cost's
are
> >approximately the same.
>
>Are you selling them service or passing them off to someone
>else?   Who will set up and support Egypi?  If you are servicing them
>then that is one more system that you have to learn, stock and
>support.  If you don't stock it, can they afford to be down for a day
>or longer waiting for a replacement?
>
> >Astlinux would work except it does not currently meet some key 
>requirements
> >(GUI, Sangoma Analog card support).  Otherwise it would be a GREAT
> >distribution for "set it and forget it" running without a
Hard Drive
>IMHO.
> >
> >Anyways, I am hoping I can get enough positive feedback about "set
it and
> >forget it" experiences to convince me to use Asterisk/FreePBX
instead of
>a
> >more proprietary VoIP solution.  Either way I will be using the same
SIP
> >phones so that is a non-issue as well.
>
>With proper hardware and support, they just run.  We do not reboot in
>a cron.   Our oldest is going on about 2 years.
>
> >Basic Requirements are as follows:
> >Wall Mount
>
>No floor or shelf space in their wiring closet?
>
> >*6 local network SIP extensions
> >*4 remote SIP extension over ADSL or cable
> >*4 incoming analog phone lines in a hunt group
> >*features such as auto attendant, voicemail to email, forward to pager 
>for
> >after hours emergency etc.  Nothing too special
> >
> >Any help, advice, experiences etc. would be greatly appreciated.
>
>Small, cheap, well made PC.  We are using a small Dell which is well
>built and easy to replace.  Sangoma A200 analog card.  Flash
>based.  Lots of testing.  You provide the support.
>
>That's what we are doing.
>
>Tom
>
You may want to just go with a 3com V3000.  It is priced pretty nicely for 
your setup and has a sweet GUI.  It is 1U and can be wallmounted.  The 
phones are pretty badass too.  It fits your stated requirements right out of 
box and adding a new phone is truly plug and play.

Best part of the 3com solution is I have NEVER had an echo issue.

I usually pitch both systems as total solutions explaining the pros and cons 
of both.  Some prospects wont go for a product "coded by guys sitting in 
their basement wearing nothing but underrwear" (this is an actual quote
from
a prospect).  3com has great marketing material as well.

Thanks,
Steve

_________________________________________________________________
Find a local pizza place, movie theater, and more….then map the best route! 
http://maps.live.com/?icid=hmtag1&FORM=MGAC01

-----Original Message-----
From: asterisk-users-bounces@lists.digium.com
[mailto:asterisk-users-bounces@lists.digium.com] On Behalf Of Steven Totaro
Sent: Monday, February 26, 2007 11:11 PM
To: asterisk-users@lists.digium.com
Subject: RE: [asterisk-users] To use asterisk or proprietary hardware,that
is the questio



>From: "shadowym" <shadowym@hotmail.com>
>Reply-To: Asterisk Users Mailing List - Non-Commercial 
>Discussion<asterisk-users@lists.digium.com>
>To: "'Asterisk Users Mailing List - Non-Commercial 
>Discussion'"<asterisk-users@lists.digium.com>
>Subject: RE: [asterisk-users] To use asterisk or proprietary hardware,that 
>is the question
>Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 20:42:21 -0800
>
>Thanks Tom and everyone else,
>
>Based largely on your comments I decided to just stick with what works.  I
>have a site using entry level ATX server hardware that has been solid as a
>rock.  I'll just go with that instead of more specialized fanless
hardware,
>specialized power supply and 2.5" hard drives etc.  Maybe get a second
>motherboard as a spare of they go for the ongoing remote support option.
>
>I'll do some simple things like a put in a standby hard drive with the
>production image on it in case the primary drive fails.  The case has hot
>swap SATA bays so if the primary drive fails or get's corrupted anyone
can
>just swap drives and they will be back up just like that.  I'll make
remote
>offsite backups as well.
>
>Thanks for all the help.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Tom [mailto:tom@ispstuff.com]
>Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2007 5:01 PM
>To: Asterisk Users Mailing List - Non-Commercial Discussion
>Subject: Re: [asterisk-users] To use asterisk or proprietary hardware,that
>is the question
>
>At 11:53 AM 2/24/2007, you wrote:
> >
> >Hi there,
> >
> >Here is my dilema.  I have a new small business customer that wants me
> >to put in a VoIP phone system for them.  Based on their requirements, I
> >have determined that it needs to be a "set it and forget it"
type of
> >thing like a lot of small business proprietary systems.
>
>There is no such thing as set and forget.  Businesses change.  They either
>grow or shrink, they don't stand still.  They will add and remove
phones.
>So they will call you at that time.  Or are you expecting them to shop for
>their own phones on Ebay?
>
>
> >At the same time they would like to be able to do minor dial plan
> >changes themselves so I have determine that a GUI like FreePBX or
> >similar alternative (free or commercial) is appropriate.
>
>We take a different approach.  We don't want a GUI.  We don't want
the
>limits.  We work with the business to design their dial plan.  Then we 
>write
>it.  We do not give them a GUI because we don't want them making changes
>and
>then asking for support.
>
>We sell them a minor service agreement and remote in for any changes.  We
>also handle professional voice recording and basic training on phone use.
>And we handle backups and service if needed.  Once they understand that we
>can do that without a service call, they are quite receptive to the idea.
>
>Conventional PBXs come with service agreements so customers are used to 
>that
>but surprised at the low cost from you.
>
>
> >I have some concerns about using Asterisk for this. As much as I am in
> >support of the whole Asterisk revolution, I just do not feel confident
> >enough in Asterisk on a Hard Drive as a "set it and forget
it" setup
>running
> >month after month, year after year.  I am hoping someone can convince
me
> >otherwise.
>
>Hard drives are reliable.  But I have similar feelings so we are
>working on a flash solution.  Were running it beta in our office
>right now. It only uses the hard drive for daily voicemail, boots
>from flash and runs from RAM.
>
> >I'm concerned about hard drive corruptions/failures, memory
> >leaks, software bugs etc.
>
>Conventional systems have bugs too.
>
> >  I have the budget to buy good quality hardware so
> >if I was to go with Asterisk I would go industrial grade fanless 
>computer,
> >power conditioned UPS etc.
>
>You don't really need fanless.  Make it cheap enough that it can
>easily be replaced.  Like a $500 PC.
>
> >I am not concerned about the reliability of most
> >of the hardware.  It's the hard drive and the software that runs on
it
>that
> >worries me.  I will obviously use a mature stable Asterisk release and 
>the
> >most stable Linux version which I won't bother naming just to keep
the
> >discussion focussed.
>
>Asterisk is pretty darn stable.
>
>
> >I have other Asterisk installs that went well but they were in 
>environments
> >where there were IT people around who were prepared to deal with some 
>Linux
> >administration and I could provide ongoing support for more major
things.
> >That is not the case here.  Some of those sites have been running for
>months
> >untouched, some needed some updates and reboots for various issues.  I
>don't
> >think this customer would look very favorably on me having to come in
and
> >add patches or have to reboot once a month or whatever.
>
>So do it from home.  And how often do you really need to upgrade a
>minimal  read only flash based system with no dev tools running from
>RAM?  Does the latest kernel really matter?
>
> >   Their expection is
> >the same as they would have with any other phone system that mounts on 
>the
> >wall and "just works" for years.  I think that is a
reasonable
>expectation.
>
>Agreed.  And if it breaks, you replace it quickly and at a low cost.
>
> >I am looking at putting in an Epygi proprietary VoIP system in instead.
>It
> >is mostly hardware based although apparently runs Linux.  It has a GUI,
>is
> >supposedly plug and play most of the time, and most importantly, does
not
> >use a Hard Drive.  I have heard good things about them so for arguments
> >sake, let's assume voice quality, features, and the enduser
experience
>are
> >approximately the same as using an Asterisk/Analog FXO Card/hardware
echo
> >cancel solution.  Flexibility, scalability, upgradeability are
non-issues
> >because the requirements are fixed.  The Eqygi will end up costing a
few
> >hundred dollars more but for arguments sake let's assume cost's
are
> >approximately the same.
>
>Are you selling them service or passing them off to someone
>else?   Who will set up and support Egypi?  If you are servicing them
>then that is one more system that you have to learn, stock and
>support.  If you don't stock it, can they afford to be down for a day
>or longer waiting for a replacement?
>
> >Astlinux would work except it does not currently meet some key 
>requirements
> >(GUI, Sangoma Analog card support).  Otherwise it would be a GREAT
> >distribution for "set it and forget it" running without a
Hard Drive
>IMHO.
> >
> >Anyways, I am hoping I can get enough positive feedback about "set
it and
> >forget it" experiences to convince me to use Asterisk/FreePBX
instead of
>a
> >more proprietary VoIP solution.  Either way I will be using the same
SIP
> >phones so that is a non-issue as well.
>
>With proper hardware and support, they just run.  We do not reboot in
>a cron.   Our oldest is going on about 2 years.
>
> >Basic Requirements are as follows:
> >Wall Mount
>
>No floor or shelf space in their wiring closet?
>
> >*6 local network SIP extensions
> >*4 remote SIP extension over ADSL or cable
> >*4 incoming analog phone lines in a hunt group
> >*features such as auto attendant, voicemail to email, forward to pager 
>for
> >after hours emergency etc.  Nothing too special
> >
> >Any help, advice, experiences etc. would be greatly appreciated.
>
>Small, cheap, well made PC.  We are using a small Dell which is well
>built and easy to replace.  Sangoma A200 analog card.  Flash
>based.  Lots of testing.  You provide the support.
>
>That's what we are doing.
>
>Tom
>
>You may want to just go with a 3com V3000.  It is priced pretty nicely for 
>your setup and has a sweet GUI.  It is 1U and can be wallmounted.  The 
>phones are pretty badass too.  It fits your stated requirements right out
>of 
>box and adding a new phone is truly plug and play.
>
>Best part of the 3com solution is I have NEVER had an echo issue.
>
>I usually pitch both systems as total solutions explaining the pros and
>cons 
>of both.  Some prospects wont go for a product "coded by guys sitting
in
>their basement wearing nothing but underrwear" (this is an actual quote
>from 
>a prospect).  3com has great marketing material as well.
>
>Thanks,
>Steve
Why go with that much "proprietary BS". I am 3com VoIP certified and
would
not recommend it for nothing. Remote sites, multicast and standard based
phones (forget it!)...all headaches! I would rather use something that
works. If you want a name brand get a good Cisco partner, they can beat 3com
prices without a doubt(I know this is not the biz list but if you can't find
one let me know and I'll beat it!). If you want cheap standard use (despite
the issues I have seen with remote and multicast with that) I would use NEC.
It supports SIP and H.323 (even though proprietary like 3Com but works
better).

Curt

_________________________________________________________________
Find a local pizza place, movie theater, and more..then map the best route! 
http://maps.live.com/?icid=hmtag1&FORM=MGAC01

_______________________________________________
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