Erik Dykema
2006-Mar-13 14:15 UTC
[Xen-users] Apple iMac / Mac Mini Core Duo, OS X under Xen?
Hi- Is anyone trying Xen on the intel iMac or Mac Mini machines, with hardware virtualization? There has been lots of speculation on the blogs & etc., that it will be possible to run Linux w/ Xen as the dom0, and then Windows XP and OS X on top of it, but no one seems to be talking about it on this list. Has anyone tried it? thanks, Erik _______________________________________________ Xen-users mailing list Xen-users@lists.xensource.com http://lists.xensource.com/xen-users
Greg Cymbalski
2006-Mar-13 14:50 UTC
Re: [Xen-users] Apple iMac / Mac Mini Core Duo, OS X under Xen?
As the unmodified guests OSX and Windows would require hardware virtualisation, which is not present on intel-based Macs (yet), plus the fact that OSX has software-based restrictions on what hardware it can run on (which would probably make it impossible to run it legally under Xen depending on how you interpret the EULA), it seems unlikely that it will be working at any point in the near future. I''m sure it''s only a matter of time before people get cracked versions of OSX running atop hardware virtualisation, though. On 3/13/06, Erik Dykema <dykema@gmail.com> wrote:> > Hi- > Is anyone trying Xen on the intel iMac or Mac Mini machines, with > hardware virtualization? > There has been lots of speculation on the blogs & etc., that it > will be possible to run Linux w/ Xen as the dom0, and then Windows XP > and OS X on top of it, but no one seems to be talking about it on this > list. Has anyone tried it? > > thanks, > Erik > > _______________________________________________ > Xen-users mailing list > Xen-users@lists.xensource.com > http://lists.xensource.com/xen-users >_______________________________________________ Xen-users mailing list Xen-users@lists.xensource.com http://lists.xensource.com/xen-users
Randy Thelen
2006-Mar-13 15:52 UTC
Re: [Xen-users] Apple iMac / Mac Mini Core Duo, OS X under Xen?
Greg Cymbalski wrote:> [... hardware virtualisation], which is not present on intel-based > Macs (yet), [...]You mean "not enabled," right? The Core Duo processors have the VT capabilities, I was lead to believe at the IDF. -- Randy _______________________________________________ Xen-users mailing list Xen-users@lists.xensource.com http://lists.xensource.com/xen-users
Erik Dykema
2006-Mar-13 17:14 UTC
Re: [Xen-users] Apple iMac / Mac Mini Core Duo, OS X under Xen?
Greg- Thanks for your response. It''s my understanding that hardware virtualization IS currently available on the intel based Macs by virtue of their Core Duo chips, see: http://wiki.xensource.com/xenwiki/IntelVT and http://osxbook.com/book/bonus/misc/linux/ On the 2nd page, it shows the output of proc/cpuinfo, which shows VMX, the cpu flag for hardware virtualization. It is possible that some extra work needs to be done to virtualize the extra ''trusted computing'' chip which OS X requires. Erik On 3/13/06, Greg Cymbalski <cymbalski@gmail.com> wrote:> As the unmodified guests OSX and Windows would require hardware > virtualisation, which is not present on intel-based Macs (yet), plus the > fact that OSX has software-based restrictions on what hardware it can run on > (which would probably make it impossible to run it legally under Xen > depending on how you interpret the EULA), it seems unlikely that it will be > working at any point in the near future. I''m sure it''s only a matter of > time before people get cracked versions of OSX running atop hardware > virtualisation, though. > > > On 3/13/06, Erik Dykema <dykema@gmail.com> wrote: > > > Hi- > Is anyone trying Xen on the intel iMac or Mac Mini machines, with > hardware virtualization? > There has been lots of speculation on the blogs & etc., that it > will be possible to run Linux w/ Xen as the dom0, and then Windows XP > and OS X on top of it, but no one seems to be talking about it on this > list. Has anyone tried it? > > thanks, > Erik_______________________________________________ Xen-users mailing list Xen-users@lists.xensource.com http://lists.xensource.com/xen-users
Greg Cymbalski
2006-Mar-13 18:10 UTC
Re: [Xen-users] Apple iMac / Mac Mini Core Duo, OS X under Xen?
Does the presence of VMX in cpuinfo necessarily mean the whole platform supports it? I''ve only played with a few machines with hardware VT which was enabled after a BIOS upgrade and now, unfortunately, I can''t go back and see if the flag showed up originally. Besides, will Xen boot from EFI? On 3/13/06, Erik Dykema <dykema@gmail.com> wrote:> > Greg- > Thanks for your response. It''s my understanding that hardware > virtualization IS currently available on the intel based Macs by > virtue of their Core Duo chips, see: > > http://wiki.xensource.com/xenwiki/IntelVT > and > http://osxbook.com/book/bonus/misc/linux/ > > On the 2nd page, it shows the output of proc/cpuinfo, which shows VMX, > the cpu flag for hardware virtualization. > > It is possible that some extra work needs to be done to > virtualize the extra ''trusted computing'' chip which OS X requires. > > Erik > > On 3/13/06, Greg Cymbalski <cymbalski@gmail.com> wrote: > > As the unmodified guests OSX and Windows would require hardware > > virtualisation, which is not present on intel-based Macs (yet), plus the > > fact that OSX has software-based restrictions on what hardware it can > run on > > (which would probably make it impossible to run it legally under Xen > > depending on how you interpret the EULA), it seems unlikely that it will > be > > working at any point in the near future. I''m sure it''s only a matter of > > time before people get cracked versions of OSX running atop hardware > > virtualisation, though. > > > > > > On 3/13/06, Erik Dykema <dykema@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > Hi- > > Is anyone trying Xen on the intel iMac or Mac Mini machines, with > > hardware virtualization? > > There has been lots of speculation on the blogs & etc., that it > > will be possible to run Linux w/ Xen as the dom0, and then Windows XP > > and OS X on top of it, but no one seems to be talking about it on this > > list. Has anyone tried it? > > > > thanks, > > Erik > > _______________________________________________ > Xen-users mailing list > Xen-users@lists.xensource.com > http://lists.xensource.com/xen-users >_______________________________________________ Xen-users mailing list Xen-users@lists.xensource.com http://lists.xensource.com/xen-users
yhlu
2006-Mar-13 18:17 UTC
Re: [Xen-users] Apple iMac / Mac Mini Core Duo, OS X under Xen?
FYI You can use Firmware to boot Linux Kernel with kexec support, and use Kexec tools (with multiboot support ) to boot the xen. I have tried LinuxBIOS+Kernel+Kexec could boot the xen. So I assume you can use EFI to load Linux Kernel and use Kexec to load you xen. Thanks YH On 3/13/06, Greg Cymbalski <cymbalski@gmail.com> wrote:> Does the presence of VMX in cpuinfo necessarily mean the whole platform > supports it? I''ve only played with a few machines with hardware VT which > was enabled after a BIOS upgrade and now, unfortunately, I can''t go back and > see if the flag showed up originally. > > Besides, will Xen boot from EFI? > > > On 3/13/06, Erik Dykema <dykema@gmail.com> wrote: > > Greg- > > Thanks for your response. It''s my understanding that hardware > > virtualization IS currently available on the intel based Macs by > > virtue of their Core Duo chips, see: > > > > http://wiki.xensource.com/xenwiki/IntelVT > > and > > http://osxbook.com/book/bonus/misc/linux/ > > > > On the 2nd page, it shows the output of proc/cpuinfo, which shows VMX, > > the cpu flag for hardware virtualization. > > > > It is possible that some extra work needs to be done to > > virtualize the extra ''trusted computing'' chip which OS X requires. > > > > Erik > > > > On 3/13/06, Greg Cymbalski < cymbalski@gmail.com> wrote: > > > As the unmodified guests OSX and Windows would require hardware > > > virtualisation, which is not present on intel-based Macs (yet), plus the > > > fact that OSX has software-based restrictions on what hardware it can > run on > > > (which would probably make it impossible to run it legally under Xen > > > depending on how you interpret the EULA), it seems unlikely that it will > be > > > working at any point in the near future. I''m sure it''s only a matter of > > > time before people get cracked versions of OSX running atop hardware > > > virtualisation, though. > > > > > > > > > On 3/13/06, Erik Dykema < dykema@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > Hi- > > > Is anyone trying Xen on the intel iMac or Mac Mini machines, with > > > hardware virtualization? > > > There has been lots of speculation on the blogs & etc., that it > > > will be possible to run Linux w/ Xen as the dom0, and then Windows XP > > > and OS X on top of it, but no one seems to be talking about it on this > > > list. Has anyone tried it? > > > > > > thanks, > > > Erik > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Xen-users mailing list > > Xen-users@lists.xensource.com > > http://lists.xensource.com/xen-users > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Xen-users mailing list > Xen-users@lists.xensource.com > http://lists.xensource.com/xen-users > >_______________________________________________ Xen-users mailing list Xen-users@lists.xensource.com http://lists.xensource.com/xen-users
Dirk H. Schulz
2006-Mar-14 07:00 UTC
Re: [Xen-users] Apple iMac / Mac Mini Core Duo, OS X under Xen?
yhlu schrieb:>FYI > >You can use Firmware to boot Linux Kernel with kexec support, and use >Kexec tools (with multiboot support ) to boot the xen. > >I have tried LinuxBIOS+Kernel+Kexec could boot the xen. So I assume >you can use EFI to load Linux Kernel and use Kexec to load you xen. > >What is Kexec? And have you tried on a Mac? Dirk _______________________________________________ Xen-users mailing list Xen-users@lists.xensource.com http://lists.xensource.com/xen-users
Dirk H. Schulz
2006-Mar-14 07:08 UTC
Re: [Xen-users] Apple iMac / Mac Mini Core Duo, OS X under Xen?
Erik Dykema schrieb:>Hi- > Is anyone trying Xen on the intel iMac or Mac Mini machines, with >hardware virtualization? > There has been lots of speculation on the blogs & etc., that it >will be possible to run Linux w/ Xen as the dom0, and then Windows XP >and OS X on top of it, but no one seems to be talking about it on this >list. Has anyone tried it? > >Eric, I have not tried and will not (see below), but if you want to this could be way to go: 1. Get Linux to boot with EFI on the Mac 2. Make xen do the same 3. Get hands on a development version of MacOS X/Intel and follow maxxuss'' explanations to get it running inside a domU (maxuss.hotbox.ru or something like that). This is the illegal part, by the way. I thought about that quite some time and decided not to try. If you have a Mac, you want MacOS X to use the builtin graphics and other hardware (which is impossible in a domU). Running OS X inside a domU is interesting for MacOS X hosting, but then you don''t use Apple Hardware (because you need all your money for the lawyers fighting off Apples lawyers :-) ). If you have a Mac/Intel and want to run other OSses in parallel, I would give Qemu a try. If their acceleration module works on OS X /Intel, that is a path to test. You could run Windows and Linux/OpenSolaris/BSD with limited hardware access (you would not try gaming in a domU, would you?) in domUs and have MacOS X make use of the hardware. Dirk _______________________________________________ Xen-users mailing list Xen-users@lists.xensource.com http://lists.xensource.com/xen-users
Erik Dykema
2006-Mar-14 13:16 UTC
Re: [Xen-users] Apple iMac / Mac Mini Core Duo, OS X under Xen?
> I thought about that quite some time and decided not to try. If you have > a Mac, you want MacOS X to use the builtin graphics and other hardware > (which is impossible in a domU).Herr Schulz- Thanks for your response. In fact, this is exactly what I would like to do, namely, use Mac hardware (Intel imac / mac mini / etc.) to run all three of the most popular OS''s, like so: hardware || Linux / | \ OS X M$ Linux Why is this impossible in a domU ? I thought that the point of the hardware virtualization (VTX, VMX, etc.) was that unmodified guest OS''s can be run, as if they are running on the ''bare metal''. thanks, Erik _______________________________________________ Xen-users mailing list Xen-users@lists.xensource.com http://lists.xensource.com/xen-users
Dirk H. Schulz
2006-Mar-14 13:33 UTC
Re: [Xen-users] Apple iMac / Mac Mini Core Duo, OS X under Xen?
Erik Dykema schrieb:>>I thought about that quite some time and decided not to try. If you have >>a Mac, you want MacOS X to use the builtin graphics and other hardware >>(which is impossible in a domU). >> >> > >Herr Schulz- > Thanks for your response. In fact, this is exactly what I would >like to do, namely, use Mac hardware (Intel imac / mac mini / etc.) to >run all three of the most popular OS''s, like so: > > hardware > || > Linux > / | \ > OS X M$ Linux > > Why is this impossible in a domU ? I thought that the point of >the hardware virtualization (VTX, VMX, etc.) was that unmodified guest >OS''s can be run, as if they are running on the ''bare metal''. > >As long as the dom0 is a system that can activate VT via BIOS or EFI. But Macs do not have a BIOS, and their EFI does not activate VT (since Apple does not feel to need it). So you have to setup a system that boots from EFI (Linux can do that) AND you have to setup your own EFI. Since that is not too well documented this might be hard work - there''s people out there who have damaged their brand new Macs trying that. And what then? If you get it running, what advantages do yo have over the Mac running Mac OS X and Quemu and there running M$ and Linux? Quemu is hardware emulation, yes, but they have some kind of accelerator that comes in if it has to emulate the same hardware it runs on anyway. If that thingy is working on MacOS X/Intel, there is no need to get the big big work done of getting xen to run on a Mac. At least I think so. :-) Feel free for yourself. And by the way: Hardware virtualization does not mean that you can make use of the existing hardware inside domU. Lets say: In your design above none of the domUs can use the graphics chipset of the base Mac. The domUs are presented virtualized devices with standard functions, not drivers for every single hardware instance - at least that is what I understand. Dirk _______________________________________________ Xen-users mailing list Xen-users@lists.xensource.com http://lists.xensource.com/xen-users