2009/3/7 Rosanne DiMesio <dimesio at earthlink.net>:> I can think of one possible benefit. There are a lot of apps without maintainers, and there might be users of those apps who would be willing take a few minutes to post bits of useful information in a wiki, but don't want the responsibility of being a maintainer. Sure, they could just post info in a comment, but user comments are buried at the bottom of the page and not in a useful order for finding information quickly. The same goes for comments in test reports--I've found information on needed tweaks buried several reports down from the most recent.Yep. That's why a wiki is nice. If you open it up to everyone to contribute, you'll get bad stuff but you'll get good stuff you just wouldn't get otherwise. It's a great format to capture that. Being an app maintainer is too much like bureaucracy. It makes drive-by reports way too hard. Keep it simple, you'll get more information and therefore more good information. (Disclaimer: I'm a Wikipedia admin and press volunteer, so I think of wikis as good default solutions for lots of things ;-) What do users want from the AppDB? They want to know how well the app works with Wine, and what tweaks are needed to get it working. I'd be tempted to just go and start a wiki on the subject myself, but it'd be duplicated effort with the present AppDB. So I'd rather try to make a case for it. The present AppDB is lacking in many ways that I think a wiki would help with. I'm cc'ing this to wine-users - since I'd need to make a case for the wiki to developers, but it's actually *for* the users. Users: what's right and wrong with the AppDB? How useful is it for you? What would make it better? - d.
2009/3/8 David Gerard <dgerard at gmail.com>:> 2009/3/7 Rosanne DiMesio <dimesio at earthlink.net>: > >> I can think of one possible benefit. There are a lot of apps without maintainers, and there might be users of those apps who would be willing take a few minutes to post bits of useful information in a wiki, but don't want the responsibility of being a maintainer. Sure, they could just post info in a comment, but user comments are buried at the bottom of the page and not in a useful order for finding information quickly. The same goes for comments in test reports--I've found information on needed tweaks buried several reports down from the most recent. > > > Yep. That's why a wiki is nice. If you open it up to everyone to > contribute, you'll get bad stuff but you'll get good stuff you just > wouldn't get otherwise. It's a great format to capture that. > > Being an app maintainer is too much like bureaucracy. It makes > drive-by reports way too hard. Keep it simple, you'll get more > information and therefore more good information. > > (Disclaimer: I'm a Wikipedia admin and press volunteer, so I think of > wikis as good default solutions for lots of things ;-) > > What do users want from the AppDB? They want to know how well the app > works with Wine, and what tweaks are needed to get it working. > > I'd be tempted to just go and start a wiki on the subject myself, but > it'd be duplicated effort with the present AppDB. So I'd rather try to > make a case for it. > > The present AppDB is lacking in many ways that I think a wiki would help with.Lacking, yes. Wiki? I really don't think that's a viable solution. We already have one wiki, wiki.winehq.org. Setting up an AppDB wiki in addition would likely get very messy. AppDB is more like a tightly controlled forum. The problem is that, as you say, it's not easy to get tweaks listed on app pages, and users could very well be intimidated by the (super)maintainer processes. The current view is that HOWTOs in particular are best written by app maintainers - they're the ones who should know all the details and caveats. The issue here is that there aren't enough people volunteering for (super)maintainer rights on the right applications (how many maintainers do we really need for Counterstrike:Source?), or they are not active enough to write and maintain HOWTOs, Warnings and Notes. Maybe we could make it easier for casual users to write Notes? HOWTOs should probably still be reserved for (super)maintainers, or at least require (super)maintainer approval before being accepted. "Why?" I hear you ask. Because I'm worried that if we open it up completely we'll get people providing instructions that destroy systems or install malware. Wikis are great for encyclopaedic references, but not so great for instructions and guides.> I'm cc'ing this to wine-users - since I'd need to make a case for the > wiki to developers, but it's actually *for* the users. Users: what's > right and wrong with the AppDB? How useful is it for you? What would > make it better?I'm not subscribed to wine-users, so I won't see comments there.
Well, I can certainly confirm there is a barrier for drive by submissions. As a matter of fact the barrier is even bigger than one might anticipate (as an occasional user): - sometime ago I submitted test data for a game. It was rejected with: Please fill the "What does not work". I had written something like: "I've done only initial gameplay". I believe the reply was implicitly there, so IMO it was a unneeded barrier. Anyway, I tried to oblige with a more explicit reply, and guess what: the submission was not working: After submit, the form came back with the old data!! So, another barrier. Furtermore, I sent an email to webmaster with the issue, but never heard anything back. As you can imagine, this has lowered my willingness to submit test data, and lack of updated info for newer versions of wine is THE major problem with appdb. On the positive side, I had two comments in Sacred deleted by the maintainer as a cleanup, and I felt the deletes were appropriate and educative. Anyway, I think appdb mostly works and putting a wiki as a full replacement would be a mistake. As it is, appdb has maybe a tiny bit too much structure and bureaucracy, but going to the wiki and loose all the structure would be silly. The UI and function of appdb is mostly quite good: I would look for small tweaks lowering the barrier for contributions: some areas could work like a wiki: the description, screenshots, and an always present howto. The howto should be always editable and invite people to improve it with their own tweaks, minimising the user having to go through the comments to find a possibly inexistent needle. I would definitely look into a simpler form to submit test data, but above all, I would look into having one of those wine appdb love days (weeks) were test data is put up to date, e.g. for a forthcoming 1.2?
2009/3/7 IneedAname <wineappdb at googlemail.com>:> On Sat, 7 Mar 2009 20:10:13 +0000 > David Gerard <dgerard at gmail.com> wrote:>> Yep. That's why a wiki is nice. If you open it up to everyone to >> contribute, you'll get bad stuff but you'll get good stuff you just >> wouldn't get otherwise. It's a great format to capture that.> We would use the same system for edit rights that we use now. > Make appDB account then ask to be a maintainer then you can edit the wiki page for that app. > The wiki is only for application notes. > Anyone can read the wiki history. > Con: > It would be very hard to set up.Con: Becoming a maintainer is a pain in the backside. You won't get useful drive-by contributions, and a lot of this stuff is drive-by.> Do not cross post or you may up set people with power.So when we're talking about a service to users, you're saying "God forbid we ask the users"? - d.
-----Original Message----->From: David Gerard <dgerard at gmail.com> >Sent: Mar 8, 2009 6:59 AM >To: wine-devel at winehq.org >Cc: Wine <wine-users at winehq.org> >Subject: Re: [Wine] The pros and cons of a wiki AppDB > >2009/3/7 IneedAname <wineappdb at googlemail.com>: >> On Sat, 7 Mar 2009 20:10:13 +0000 >> David Gerard <dgerard at gmail.com> wrote: > >>> Yep. That's why a wiki is nice. If you open it up to everyone to >>> contribute, you'll get bad stuff but you'll get good stuff you just >>> wouldn't get otherwise. It's a great format to capture that. > >> We would use the same system for edit rights that we use now. >> Make appDB account then ask to be a maintainer then you can edit the wiki page for that app. >> The wiki is only for application notes. >> Anyone can read the wiki history. >> Con: >> It would be very hard to set up. > > >Con: Becoming a maintainer is a pain in the backside. You won't get >useful drive-by contributions, and a lot of this stuff is drive-by. >Example? I've been a maintainer for over a year now. I've received two postings for the program. I don't think a lot of Linux and Mac users are using the program, or they are not experiencing problems. I will update the entry, now that you have reminded me to do so.> >> Do not cross post or you may up set people with power. > > >So when we're talking about a service to users, you're saying "God >forbid we ask the users"? >We are discussing what is a development issue. We really don't need to confuse users with this. Besides, I don't think most users really care if we are using a Wiki or a Web Application to record what is hsppening with Applications and their ability to run on Wine. James McKenzie> >- d. >
hmm one should make this post as sticky.. too many important messages are lost in the forums that way. as for what id like to see in appDB, is charts! ye charts,i think if there was somekind of chart showing the fluctuation off the color of my app(platinum.gold etc) compared to wine version, would make appDB cooler, and we'd a visual reference on how wine grows. also if those who maintain the appDB read these forums please UNIFY APPDB AND FORUM ACCOUNTS