Since 1.0rc2 was released i have found that ogg@64k sounds almost like mp3@128k (in 95% of the 3000 files i encoded...) I tested 1.0rc3 and 64k bitrate (quality=0.0) gives less good quality than before. And bad : it takes longer to encode ! (1.7x vs. 2.0x on a P2/500MHz) Effectively 64k ogg files encoded with rc3 are smaller than files encoded with rc2. I hear people debatting on how satisfied they are encoding files at quality=3 or 5 or 10 ! The way i think vorbis format is superior to any other format is not quality : you already get quality with all other formats at medium/high bitrates Ogg gives quality at very low bitrates, and THIS is the most important to my eyes !! Anyway i need to encode at least at 72k (quality=0.5) with rc3 to have the same feeling i used to have with rc2 at 64k !!! Emmanuel (aka nvo98xp) <p>--- >8 ---- List archives: http://www.xiph.org/archives/ Ogg project homepage: http://www.xiph.org/ogg/ To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to 'vorbis-request@xiph.org' containing only the word 'unsubscribe' in the body. No subject is needed. Unsubscribe messages sent to the list will be ignored/filtered.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Manu/NVO" <ereisser@wanadoo.fr> To: <vorbis@xiph.org> Sent: Monday, January 14, 2002 1:39 PM Subject: [vorbis] RC2 better than RC3 ??? <p>> The way i think vorbis format is superior to any other format is not> quality : > you already get quality with all other formats at medium/high bitrates > Ogg gives quality at very low bitrates, and THIS is the most > important to my eyes !! >Clearly, the benchmark for any audio format is the quality/bitrate ratio. Other formats already offer audio quality exceeding that of CD. (FLAC, for example).. The whole point of a lossless format is to cram acceptable audio quality into the narrowest possible stream. That being said, for me the main advantage of Ogg over MP3 is that Ogg is free software, and MP3 is not. The true gapless playback doesn't hurt either. <p><p><p>--- >8 ---- List archives: http://www.xiph.org/archives/ Ogg project homepage: http://www.xiph.org/ogg/ To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to 'vorbis-request@xiph.org' containing only the word 'unsubscribe' in the body. No subject is needed. Unsubscribe messages sent to the list will be ignored/filtered.
On Mon, 14 Jan 2002, Manu/NVO wrote:> I tested 1.0rc3 and 64k bitrate (quality=0.0) gives > less good quality than before.If you don't indicate any sample or provide a description of the problem there is little we can do about your problem. -- GCP <p>--- >8 ---- List archives: http://www.xiph.org/archives/ Ogg project homepage: http://www.xiph.org/ogg/ To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to 'vorbis-request@xiph.org' containing only the word 'unsubscribe' in the body. No subject is needed. Unsubscribe messages sent to the list will be ignored/filtered.
As I understand it quality=0.0 isn't necessarily 64k bitrate. That's it's nominal bitrate, but it is likely to end up less then that (so the file is actually not 64k bitrate). Check the size of the files at q=0.5, it's likely that their average bitrate is more like 64k, and that is why they sound as good as rc2 @ 64k. Another thing you could use to compare is using -b 64, to see how it sounds, since the quality system works differently to rc2's system. I'm encoding my OGGs at q=5, giving me a nice file size (The files had to be much bigger in mp3s for me to put up with the quality), and excellent sound. One thing: Is it possible to encode files with greater than 2 audio channels? Also how are the channels identified? i.e. How can an encoder work out "left-front" "center" "Low Frequency Effects" "right-rear"?? Mark ----- Original Message ----- From: Manu/NVO <ereisser@wanadoo.fr> Date: Tuesday, January 15, 2002 5:39 am Subject: [vorbis] RC2 better than RC3 ???> Since 1.0rc2 was released i have found that ogg@64k > sounds almost like mp3@128k (in 95% of the 3000 files i encoded...) > > I tested 1.0rc3 and 64k bitrate (quality=0.0) gives > less good quality than before. > And bad : it takes longer to encode ! > (1.7x vs. 2.0x on a P2/500MHz) > > Effectively 64k ogg files encoded with rc3 are smaller than > files encoded with rc2. > I hear people debatting on how satisfied they are encoding > files at quality=3 or 5 or 10 ! > > The way i think vorbis format is superior to any other format is not > quality : > you already get quality with all other formats at medium/high bitrates > Ogg gives quality at very low bitrates, and THIS is the most > important to my eyes !! > > Anyway i need to encode at least at 72k (quality=0.5) with rc3 to > have the same feeling i used to have with rc2 at 64k !!! > > Emmanuel (aka nvo98xp) > > > --- >8 ---- > List archives: http://www.xiph.org/archives/ > Ogg project homepage: http://www.xiph.org/ogg/ > To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to 'vorbis- > request@xiph.org'containing only the word 'unsubscribe' in the > body. No subject is needed. > Unsubscribe messages sent to the list will be ignored/filtered. ><p>--- >8 ---- List archives: http://www.xiph.org/archives/ Ogg project homepage: http://www.xiph.org/ogg/ To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to 'vorbis-request@xiph.org' containing only the word 'unsubscribe' in the body. No subject is needed. Unsubscribe messages sent to the list will be ignored/filtered.
I should clarify: Is it possible with the current encoder? How would I go about trying it out (I would really like to test it out.) <p>> > Also how are the channels identified? i.e. How can an encoder> > work out "left-front" "center" "Low Frequency Effects" "right- > rear"?? > Right now, they aren't identified. This is one of the big things on > the'must do before 1.0' list.<p>I would really like to help with this if thats at all possible, and I can be of help. Mark <p>--- >8 ---- List archives: http://www.xiph.org/archives/ Ogg project homepage: http://www.xiph.org/ogg/ To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to 'vorbis-request@xiph.org' containing only the word 'unsubscribe' in the body. No subject is needed. Unsubscribe messages sent to the list will be ignored/filtered.
I don't know if I have any tools to make a 6 channel wav, but I'll investigate. I sort of assumed that there would have to be some sort of a "tag" for the channels, and that a naming standard would be needed. But I guess there are other options like giving a relative positioning (a unit vector), and specifying frequency range(s). How does the decoder recognise right and left channels now? I guess a combination of those would be possible too. I'll see what I can find out about other formats. ----- Original Message ----- From: volsung@asu.edu Date: Tuesday, January 15, 2002 1:02 pm Subject: Re: [vorbis] RC2 better than RC3 ???> On Tue, 15 Jan 2002, MARK JAMES HETHERINGTON wrote: > > > I should clarify: Is it possible with the current encoder? How > would I > > go about trying it out (I would really like to test it out.) > > If you can produce a 6 channel WAV file, oggenc will try to encode > it. I'm > not sure what libvorbis will do with it, but the command line tool > will take > it. :) > > > > > > Also how are the channels identified? i.e. How can an encoder > > > > work out "left-front" "center" "Low Frequency Effects" > "right- > > > rear"?? > > > Right now, they aren't identified. This is one of the big > things on > > > the'must do before 1.0' list. > > > > > > I would really like to help with this if thats at all possible, > and I > > can be of help. > > One help would be to investigate how other formats have handled > this. A few > links to relevant documents would help all of us see what has > already been > done in this area. > > --- > Stan Seibert > > > --- >8 ---- > List archives: http://www.xiph.org/archives/ > Ogg project homepage: http://www.xiph.org/ogg/ > To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to 'vorbis- > request@xiph.org'containing only the word 'unsubscribe' in the > body. No subject is needed. > Unsubscribe messages sent to the list will be ignored/filtered. ><p>--- >8 ---- List archives: http://www.xiph.org/archives/ Ogg project homepage: http://www.xiph.org/ogg/ To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to 'vorbis-request@xiph.org' containing only the word 'unsubscribe' in the body. No subject is needed. Unsubscribe messages sent to the list will be ignored/filtered.
>On Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 07:02:55PM -0700, volsung@asu.edu wrote: >> On Tue, 15 Jan 2002, MARK JAMES HETHERINGTON wrote: > >... please avoid yelling -- especially in your own name...In summary: I'm very sorry. Longer explanation: Unfortunately the Web-mail client to access my university email, doesn't seem to let you change your own name. There's an option to change what it is on my "vCard". I'm firewalled from the POP server so I have to use the web mail server. I've been searching for a way to change my displayed name for some weeks now. Sorry. On Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 07:02:55PM -0700, volsung@asu.edu wrote:> On Tue, 15 Jan 2002, MARK JAMES HETHERINGTON wrote:... please avoid yelling -- especially in your own name...> > I should clarify: Is it possible with the current encoder? How would I > > go about trying it out (I would really like to test it out.) > > If you can produce a 6 channel WAV file, oggenc will try to encode it. I'm > not sure what libvorbis will do with it, but the command line tool will take > it. :)Could I suggest yet another oggenc option -- multiplexing several uncompressed audio files into one Vorbis stream (i.e. channel 1 and 2 from left and right of file1.wav, channel 3 and 4 from left and right of file2.wav, etc.)? So when transcoding ac3 -> Vorbis, you could somehow convince the decoder to give you a bunch of regular stereo (or even mono) output files, for front left, right, rear left, right, center, sub, and whatever else they've thrown in these days, and just pull them all together during the encode. Coupling is a different story. What exactly will the current channel coupling do on (a) more than 2 channels and (b) two channels that have nothing to do with each other (like producer commentary, alternate language, etc. tracks available on many DVDs)? -- Kenneth Arnold <ken@arnoldnet.net> - "Know thyself." <p>--- >8 ---- List archives: http://www.xiph.org/archives/ Ogg project homepage: http://www.xiph.org/ogg/ To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to 'vorbis-request@xiph.org' containing only the word 'unsubscribe' in the body. No subject is needed. Unsubscribe messages sent to the list will be ignored/filtered.