Yes, r3mix found a bug, no it's not a serious one. It's amazing how something small gets overblown like this. The r3mix reviewer basically just hit the known short block trigger bug when doing his tests. We've known about this bug since before the beta and haven't fixed it yet because it was considered relatively minor; [ironically] it mostly affects test samples with a single strong frequency and no or only regular harmonics. The effects in 'natural' audio are more subtle, although still audible; it sounds like imperfect preecho cancellation (which is partially what it is). A few details so folks are more informed: Our current encoder tries to differentiate between strongly periodic [regular] signals and impulses/strong breaks in the sound (no surprise there). The impulses and strong breaks are coded in shorter blocks (like mp3, although the logical implementation is different) and for that reason, the encoder optimizes short block tuning for impulses, not tones. If the encoder screws up and tries to encode fairly pure tones in short blocks, suddenly the fit is very poor and the block boundaries become audible, which causes beat frequencies, low frequency noise... in short it sounds like crap. This is exactly what the r3mix reviewer hit. The log sweeps, pure tones, etc, are a pathological case in which the beta code's short block trigger guesses wrong more than half of the time. It's just a bug. Naturally, since this is now the biggest Vorbis item being bandied about by detractors, we're fixing it ASAP :-P r3mix already said they're happy to test a new version of the encoder with the bug fixed. For comparison purposes, have a look/listen at: http://www.xiph.org/ogg/vorbis/test.ogg ...and the included a plot of the frequency response. This is a pure tone logsweep encoded with short blocks disabled (the correct thing to do with this sample). You can see in the sweep graph I attached that the response is nearly flat, like it should be, from 0-20000 Hz. There are two 6dB dropout imperfections in the high end; I need to look at this flaw (you never know... maybe the r3mix guy was right after all and there *is* a masking bug ;-) Response is not perfectly flat (there's a half dB ripple or so) because the psychoacoustics say that's fine and the psychoacoustics are correct. Unlike most mp3 encoders, Vorbis totally trusts its psychoacoustics and because it's natively VBR, it won't try to use up 'extra' bits resulting in .000025 dB resolution on a very simple sample like this. The logsweep encoded to 48kbps stereo (24kbps/channel). Next, a sweep matching the one used by r3mix; what they didn't say in the news section is that the graph they provide is a 4.5kHz-22kHz sweep). Attached is also a 4.5Khz-20 kHz sweep for comparison. Note that there is *no* low end noise problem. In any case, the bad r3mix review is just due to a small bug with a big effect. Monty <HR NOSHADE> <UL> <LI>image/png attachment: logsweep.png </UL> -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: logsweep.png Type: application/octet-stream Size: 6694 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.xiph.org/pipermail/vorbis/attachments/20000628/eaa2f102/logsweep-0001.obj -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: logsweep2.png Type: application/octet-stream Size: 7017 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.xiph.org/pipermail/vorbis/attachments/20000628/eaa2f102/logsweep2-0001.obj