theora dev - Aug 2002 - Using the VP3 ENCODER in a DIRECTSHOW GRAPH wit defined quality and BANDWIDTH - HOW?

Hello,

Due to some licensing changes (and because I actually want to promote
this, too) I want to replace our usage of Intel Indeo 5 with VP3 in a
video conferencing pplication we are just developing (check:
http://www.stnadby24.no/ for infos (english language) on the
application).

My problem is this: I need to define at least the bandwidth. I am
feeding full frames from the camera with a given maximum framerate (10),
and have a bandwidth of around 90kbit for the video stream.

How? The codec seems to ignore any output side bandwidth setting I have
entered.

Can anyone recommend, please?

Regards

Thomas Tomiczek
THONA Consulting Ltd.
(Microsoft MVP C#/.NET)

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so you are using the VFW codec, right?

The codec presently looks in the registry to get the bandwidth parameters.

I would suggest looking at this function (in vp31vfw.cpp):

void registry2settings(COMP_CONFIG &CompConfig)
{
        char vp3settings[120];
        unsigned long size;

<p>Registry_GetEntry(&vp3settings,REG_CSTRING,&size,"strSettings",REGACCESS);

    sscanf( vp3settings,
                "%ld %ld %ld %ld %ld %ld %ld %ld %ld %ld ",
                &CompConfig.TargetBitRate,
                &CompConfig.Quality,
                &CompConfig.KeyFrameDataTarget,
                &CompConfig.AllowDF,
                &CompConfig.QuickCompress,
                &CompConfig.AutoKeyFrameEnabled,
                &CompConfig.AutoKeyFrameThreshold,
                &CompConfig.MinimumDistanceToKeyFrame,
                &CompConfig.ForceKeyFrameEvery,
                &CompConfig.NoiseSensitivity);
}

 ___  Dan Miller
(++,) CTO and founder, On2 Technologies

On Wed, 21 Aug 2002, Thomas Tomiczek wrote:
> Hello,
>
> Due to some licensing changes (and because I actually want to promote
> this, too) I want to replace our usage of Intel Indeo 5 with VP3 in a
> video conferencing pplication we are just developing (check:
> http://www.stnadby24.no/ for infos (english language) on the
> application).
>
> My problem is this: I need to define at least the bandwidth. I am
> feeding full frames from the camera with a given maximum framerate (10),
> and have a bandwidth of around 90kbit for the video stream.
>
> How? The codec seems to ignore any output side bandwidth setting I have
> entered.
>
> Can anyone recommend, please?
>
> Regards
>
> Thomas Tomiczek
> THONA Consulting Ltd.
> (Microsoft MVP C#/.NET)
>
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Daniel,

This is not realy convincing. Good, I could use this (not really a
problem), but - well - the main problem is propably that I would have to
rewrite this key whenever the application starts, writing back the
original value when the application stops. That is not really nice.

Is there any plan to write a "real" DirectShow filter, one that
(a) complies fully iwth the DirectShow standards, such as:
        (1) implementing the interface for video compressors to set
quality in a "easy one number way"
        (2) implementing bandwidth configuration by the stupid and
ridiculous way Dx has decided to use (i.e. set it on the output pin's
media type)
        (3) implements a custom interface for the other configuration,
in case the application is allowed to "have knowledge" of the filer
(instead of being a generic application able to use any filter)
        (4) implements dialogs to configure the filter?

I must say that I might be willing to set up a price for the inclusion
of this functionality into DirectShow in the case that - well - the VP 3
codec is of at least the same quality as intel indeo (which I actually
and perfectly assume it will be). I do not feel too comfortable using
the Video Encoder that seems to be a VfW wrapper.

Just as an end note - bear with me that I just want to have a version
her ethat I can show:

(a) can you just send me a sample of how the registry line would have to
look for a 90kbit video stream, 10 frames per second? And what would be
the full key? I will try to find out, but I try to just use the filter
:-)

(b) is there any chance that an official MSM file will be released for
filter installation? Right now I have to ways to handle this, especially
with the upcoming LGPL:
        (1) include and slave the full official installation - that is
NOT really nice.
        (2) include the filter dll's in my own installer, explaining the
license etc.
Both are not good. I would prefer (3):
        (3) merge an official merge module for the filter that is
installing (or autoamtically upgrading) the filter on it's "official
location" etc.

Thanks in advance - I really hope that the VP3 codec is meeting the
demands of our application and will try inserting it today or tomorrow
:-)

Thomas Tomiczek
THONA Consulting Ltd.
(Microsoft MVP C#/.NET)

-----Original Message-----
From: Daniel B. Miller [mailto:dan@on2.com] 
Sent: Mittwoch, 21. August 2002 20:36
To: theora-dev@xiph.org
Cc: owner-theora-dev@xiph.org
Subject: Re: [theora-dev] Using the VP3 ENCODER in a DIRECTSHOW GRAPH
wit defined quality and BANDWIDTH - HOW?

<p>so you are using the VFW codec, right?

The codec presently looks in the registry to get the bandwidth
parameters.

I would suggest looking at this function (in vp31vfw.cpp):

void registry2settings(COMP_CONFIG &CompConfig)
{
        char vp3settings[120];
        unsigned long size;

<p>Registry_GetEntry(&vp3settings,REG_CSTRING,&size,"strSettings",REGACCESS
);

    sscanf( vp3settings,
                "%ld %ld %ld %ld %ld %ld %ld %ld %ld %ld ",
                &CompConfig.TargetBitRate,
                &CompConfig.Quality,
                &CompConfig.KeyFrameDataTarget,
                &CompConfig.AllowDF,
                &CompConfig.QuickCompress,
                &CompConfig.AutoKeyFrameEnabled,
                &CompConfig.AutoKeyFrameThreshold,
                &CompConfig.MinimumDistanceToKeyFrame,
                &CompConfig.ForceKeyFrameEvery,
                &CompConfig.NoiseSensitivity);
}

 ___  Dan Miller
(++,) CTO and founder, On2 Technologies

On Wed, 21 Aug 2002, Thomas Tomiczek wrote:
> Hello,
>
> Due to some licensing changes (and because I actually want to promote 
> this, too) I want to replace our usage of Intel Indeo 5 with VP3 in a 
> video conferencing pplication we are just developing (check: 
> http://www.stnadby24.no/ for infos (english language) on the 
> application).
>
> My problem is this: I need to define at least the bandwidth. I am 
> feeding full frames from the camera with a given maximum framerate 
> (10), and have a bandwidth of around 90kbit for the video stream.
>
> How? The codec seems to ignore any output side bandwidth setting I 
> have entered.
>
> Can anyone recommend, please?
>
> Regards
>
> Thomas Tomiczek
> THONA Consulting Ltd.
> (Microsoft MVP C#/.NET)
>
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David, inline prefixed with *** - sorry, we have Outlook XP and Exchange
server as corporate stnadard, and inserting the ">"'s is not
something I
found it capable to do.

-----Original Message-----
From: Daniel B. Miller [mailto:dan@on2.com] 
Sent: Donnerstag, 22. August 2002 14:15
To: theora-dev@xiph.org
Cc: owner-theora-dev@xiph.org
Subject: RE: [theora-dev] Using the VP3 ENCODER in a DIRECTSHOW GRAPH
wit defined quality and BANDWIDTH - HOW?

<p>hi Thomas --

On Thu, 22 Aug 2002, Thomas Tomiczek wrote:
> Daniel,
>
> This is not realy convincing. Good, I could use this (not really a 
> problem), but - well - the main problem is propably that I would have 
> to rewrite this key whenever the application starts, writing back the 
> original value when the application stops. That is not really nice.
unless you modify the code, that's the only way to do it right now.

*** Lets say I will live with it and then actually propably devote
resources.
> Is there any plan to write a "real" DirectShow filter, one that
> (a) complies fully iwth the DirectShow standards, such as:
> 	(1) implementing the interface for video compressors to set
quality 
> in a "easy one number way"
> 	(2) implementing bandwidth configuration by the stupid and
ridiculous 
> way Dx has decided to use (i.e. set it on the output pin's media type)
> 	(3) implements a custom interface for the other configuration,
> in case the application is allowed to "have knowledge" of the
filer
> (instead of being a generic application able to use any filter)
> 	(4) implements dialogs to configure the filter?
Right now there are no plans to build a fully DSHOW compliant
encode/decode filter.  Our main thrust at Theora is to develop an
OGG-based audio/video stream spec, not to build codecs for specific
platforms and formats.

*** Well, ok.
> I must say that I might be willing to set up a price for the inclusion
> of this functionality into DirectShow in the case that - well - the VP
> 3 codec is of at least the same quality as intel indeo (which I 
> actually and perfectly assume it will be). I do not feel too 
> comfortable using the Video Encoder that seems to be a VfW wrapper.
Neither Xiph nor On2 is in a position to pay anyone for this sort of
work. If you decide to make a contribution to our open-source
initiative, the compensation is in knowing that you will have a vibrant
community of developers who will help you improve your contribution, and
are making contributions of their own.  We encourage you to consider
developing this tool and contributing it to the Theora/VP3 codebase.

*** Our resources in this field are limited to - I would not exactly
have problems coming up with a base filter infrastructure (means that is
work for less than an hour), but I dont feel comfortable trying to
understand the codec without documentation et al. While I do a lot of
C++ development, it is pretty limited in scope - I sort of had enough
problems trying to get the codec to compile at all. If you would be able
(or if anyone in the fielf knowledgable with the working of the codec)
would be able to actually "hand hold" me when it comes to using the
codec, I would gladly handle the rest of the work, i.e. developing the
whole DirectShow encidong part.
> Just as an end note - bear with me that I just want to have a version 
> her ethat I can show:
>
> (a) can you just send me a sample of how the registry line would have 
> to look for a 90kbit video stream, 10 frames per second? And what 
> would be the full key? I will try to find out, but I try to just use 
> the filter
> :-)
Run an app that loads the codec; go into the dialog, and set the
datarate for 11 kbyte/sec.  This will save the key into the registry
with these settings.  The key is under HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE/SOFTWARE/On2
Technologies (or something very similar).

*** Name an app :-) I tried it in DirectShow, and it fails to open any
dialog.
> (b) is there any chance that an official MSM file will be released for
> filter installation? Right now I have to ways to handle this, 
> especially with the upcoming LGPL:
Note Vp3 is not released under LGPL -- check out the license at
www.theora.org -- it's released under the standard Xiph licensing terms
(Basically BDS)

*** Thanks :-) Thanks a lot - much better :-)
> 	(1) include and slave the full official installation - that is
NOT 
> really nice.
> 	(2) include the filter dll's in my own installer, explaining the
> license etc. Both are not good. I would prefer (3):
> 	(3) merge an official merge module for the filter that is
> installing (or autoamtically upgrading) the filter on it's
"official
> location" etc.
Again, we have no resources to devote to this.  For now our plan is to
support the VFW and QT interfaces.  Very few applications use the MS
Filter interface for encoding video, and we cannot commit to another
codec type at this time.

*** Again, with support in handling the filter (I can ask you detailed
questions when it comes so far) by someone knowing what he does there, I
am willing to donate all the work to create a full blown directshow
filter :-) Note my ressentiments - I have some bad experience with bad
open source software in the past, and I definitly dont want to spend
weeks trying to understand the filter works itself.

Thomas
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Ok, Dan - sorry for the name mixup, first :-)

I whink I will just start going forward with this. I have some time this
weekend and will dig out an old project I had here for a codec filter
and rip out all the stuff inside it :-)

I will crete the following:
(a) a dll including a specialised encoder filder for DirectShow, NOT
including any UI (Dialog) - sorry, never done GUI's in C++ before. Once
I am finished someone can take this over. I would also devote source
files for an MSM merge module, but sadly we use Installshield here, and
I think that would be pretty useless :-(

Let us start with soeme questions:
(a) Is there a lib with associated header file that I can then use to
link into the codec, or do I have to rebuild the codec here completly
myself? I would prefer to be able to create the filter dll without
having to go through the complete build process.
(b) Is there a FourCC code allocated for the encoded video stream?
Basically, what would the FourCC code be if you would use the codec to
encode video for an AVI file? I need this information for the generation
of the correct video subtypes :-)
(c) Can you name me a header file that includes the definitions of the
configuration functions the codec has, so that I can create a COM
interface for this.

Thanks 

Thomas

<p>-----Original Message-----
From: Daniel B. Miller [mailto:dan@on2.com] 
Sent: Donnerstag, 22. August 2002 15:00
To: theora-dev@xiph.org
Cc: owner-theora-dev@xiph.org
Subject: RE: [theora-dev] Using the VP3 ENCODER in a DIRECTSHOW GRAPH
wit defined quality and BANDWIDTH - HOW?

<p>hi thomas --

On Thu, 22 Aug 2002, Thomas Tomiczek wrote:
> David, inline prefixed with *** - sorry, we have Outlook XP and 
> Exchange server as corporate stnadard, and inserting the
">"'s is not
> something I found it capable to do.
No problem -- but it's Dan!  Anyway I'm supposed to switch to Outlook
soon, not looking forward to it.
>
> *** Our resources in this field are limited to - I would not exactly 
> have problems coming up with a base filter infrastructure (means that 
> is work for less than an hour), but I dont feel comfortable trying to 
> understand the codec without documentation et al. While I do a lot of
> C++ development, it is pretty limited in scope - I sort of had enough
> problems trying to get the codec to compile at all. If you would be 
> able (or if anyone in the fielf knowledgable with the working of the 
> codec) would be able to actually "hand hold" me when it comes to
using
> the codec, I would gladly handle the rest of the work, i.e. developing
> the whole DirectShow encidong part.
I will do my best to help.  I cannot make any blanket promises, but a
working DSHOW filter would be a good thing.  In many ways it's a more
powerful interface than VFW.  I suspect there are other developers out
ther who could use it -- if you're lurking, now would be a good time to
make your presence known.

We did have a playback-only dshow component at one time.  I will check
to see if it's still available, and what it would take to make it
current.
>
> datarate for 11 kbyte/sec.  This will save the key into the registry 
> with these settings.  The key is under HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE/SOFTWARE/On2
> Technologies (or something very similar).
>
> *** Name an app :-) I tried it in DirectShow, and it fails to open any
> dialog.
Try VirtualDub (www.virtualdub.org)
>
> *** Again, with support in handling the filter (I can ask you detailed
> questions when it comes so far) by someone knowing what he does there,
> I am willing to donate all the work to create a full blown directshow 
> filter :-) Note my ressentiments - I have some bad experience with bad
> open source software in the past, and I definitly dont want to spend 
> weeks trying to understand the filter works itself.
I hope you decide to go for it.  I'll do my best to assist you, within
reason.
>
> Thomas
> --- >8 ----
> List archives:  http://www.xiph.org/archives/
> Ogg project homepage: http://www.xiph.org/ogg/
> To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to 
> 'theora-dev-request@xiph.org' containing only the word
'unsubscribe'
> in the body.  No subject is needed. Unsubscribe messages sent to the 
> list will be ignored/filtered.
>
 ___  Dan Miller
(++,) CTO and founder, On2 Technologies

<p><p>--- >8 ----
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Hi. Inline - with heavy cutting now...

-----Original Message-----
From: Daniel B. Miller [mailto:dan@on2.com] 
Sent: Donnerstag, 22. August 2002 21:30
To: theora-dev@xiph.org
Cc: owner-theora-dev@xiph.org
Subject: RE: [theora-dev] Using the VP3 ENCODER in a DIRECTSHOW GRAPH
wit defined quality and BANDWIDTH - HOW?

<p>hi Thomas --
> Let us start with soeme questions:
> (a) Is there a lib with associated header file that I can then use to 
> link into the codec, or do I have to rebuild the codec here completly 
> myself? I would prefer to be able to create the filter dll without 
> having to go through the complete build process.
I think it's in your interest to build the libs yourself.  There are no
'official' libraries; the source code is what you have to start with if
you don't want to use the DLL's.  If you have build problems, please let
me know.  Once you are set up correctly (MSVC, service pak 4, intel
headers etc) it should be very straightforward to build the libraries.

*** Hm, MSVC, Service Pack 4 - what about current versions of MSVC? I
will get it and ry to compile it using MSVC 7 and upwards.
> (b) Is there a FourCC code allocated for the encoded video stream? 
> Basically, what would the FourCC code be if you would use the codec to
> encode video for an AVI file? I need this information for the 
> generation of the correct video subtypes :-)
The fourCC for Vp3 is "VP31".

*** Thanks :-)
> (c) Can you name me a header file that includes the definitions of the
> configuration functions the codec has, so that I can create a COM 
> interface for this.
The easiest way would be to start with vp31vfw.cpp & .h.  These
functions are called by the VFW interface, and are reasonably
comprehensible.

*** OK.

Please don't take this the wrong way, but I need to be clear that it is
not possible for me to make any promises about supporting your task.  If
you think you're up to it, great. Our priority needs to stay focused on
improving the core technology and bringing it into the world.  Perhaps
others on this list will jump in and help.

*** Well, now frankly - "bringing it to the world" while ignoring THE
standard for video manipulation seems a little awkward for me. The
current standard for video encoding/decoding and a lot of other things
in windows is DirectShow, Video for Windows is outdated by a LARGE
degree. And wirting a DMO is pretty trivial :-)

*** You have some results hopefully on Monday - I will go for the full
build way - lets see where we end up.

Thomas
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