Shorewall devel - May 2005 - Shorewall development web site

Hi folks,

Last night and this morning i''ve hacked up a quick web site for
coordinating our development work based on Drupal (http://drupal.org).
 You can find it at:
	http://shorewall.dyndns.org

I''ve put a few ideas in there - feel free to use the comments or sign
up for an account and create your own pages (particularly in the two
books about development and web site work).  If you do sign up for an
account, please make the name the same as your shorewall.net account
if you have one.

I see this as a trial of how a dynamic documentation/web site might
work.  If there''s anything you think is needed, please let me know and
i''ll try to find a drupal module to do it.

A special plea: don''t list this site on any high-traffic sites like
slashdot.  My ADSL connection won''t handle it, and it will just get in
the way our work.

Regards,
Paul

-- 
Paul Gear, Manager IT Operations, Redlands College
38 Anson Road, Wellington Point 4160, Australia
(Please send attachments in portable formats such as PDF, HTML, or
OpenOffice.)
-- 
The information contained in this message is copyright by Redlands
College.  Any use for direct sales or marketing purposes is expressly
forbidden.  This message does not represent the views of Redlands
College.
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Paul Gear wrote:
> ...
A couple of corrections:
> I''ve put a few ideas in there - feel free to use the comments or
sign
> up for an account and create your own pages (particularly in the two
> books about development and web site work).  If you do sign up for an
> account, please make the name the same as your shorewall.net account
> if you have one.
That should be /sourceforge.net/ account.
> ...
> A special plea: don''t list this site on any high-traffic sites
like
> slashdot.  My ADSL connection won''t handle it, and it will just
get in
> the way our work.
That should be "get in the way /of/ our work".

-- 
Paul Gear, Manager IT Operations, Redlands College
38 Anson Road, Wellington Point 4160, Australia
(Please send attachments in portable formats such as PDF, HTML, or
OpenOffice.)
-- 
The information contained in this message is copyright by Redlands
College.  Any use for direct sales or marketing purposes is expressly
forbidden.  This message does not represent the views of Redlands
College.
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Hi Paul,

I run a web hosting company, and if needed, I''m more than willing to
host
the websites, CVS, mailing list or anything for Shorewall. Hosting the
development website on your ADSL line is good enough, provided not much
traffic, but if you do need a proper hosting with adequate bandwidth for the
website, please do not hesitate to contact me and I''ll open up an
account
right away.

Regards,

Jason Png
Managing Director

Smart Team Networks Pte Ltd
http://www.smartteam.net.my/


-----Original Message-----
From: shorewall-devel-bounces@lists.shorewall.net
[mailto:shorewall-devel-bounces@lists.shorewall.net] On Behalf Of Paul Gear
Sent: Friday, May 27, 2005 9:23 AM
To: shorewall-devel@lists.shorewall.net
Subject: Re: [Shorewall-devel] Shorewall development web site

Paul Gear wrote:
> ...
A couple of corrections:
> I''ve put a few ideas in there - feel free to use the comments or
sign
> up for an account and create your own pages (particularly in the two
> books about development and web site work).  If you do sign up for an
> account, please make the name the same as your shorewall.net account
> if you have one.
That should be /sourceforge.net/ account.
> ...
> A special plea: don''t list this site on any high-traffic sites
like
> slashdot.  My ADSL connection won''t handle it, and it will just
get in
> the way our work.
That should be "get in the way /of/ our work".

-- 
Paul Gear, Manager IT Operations, Redlands College
38 Anson Road, Wellington Point 4160, Australia
(Please send attachments in portable formats such as PDF, HTML, or
OpenOffice.)
-- 
The information contained in this message is copyright by Redlands
College.  Any use for direct sales or marketing purposes is expressly
forbidden.  This message does not represent the views of Redlands
College.

On Thu, 2005-05-26 at 17:42, Paul Gear wrote:
> Last night and this morning i''ve hacked up a quick web site for
> coordinating our development work based on Drupal (http://drupal.org).
>  You can find it at:
> 	http://shorewall.dyndns.org
Paul,
Not bad for a quick hack. :-)

Let me know if you need help with xhtml or css issues.

        Note: you have a few validation errors in your theme.
        http://validator.w3.org/

BTW, Drupal is a good CMS. Although, it seems they''re having some
issues
regarding the wiki.module (dwiki).

-- 
Mike Noyes <mhnoyes at users.sourceforge.net>
http://sourceforge.net/users/mhnoyes/
SF.net Projects: leaf, phpwebsite, phpwebsite-comm, sitedocs

Mike Noyes wrote:
> ...
> Not bad for a quick hack. :-)
Thank drupal, not me.  :-)
> Let me know if you need help with xhtml or css issues.
> 
>         Note: you have a few validation errors in your theme.
>         http://validator.w3.org/
> 
> BTW, Drupal is a good CMS. Although, it seems they''re having some
issues
> regarding the wiki.module (dwiki).
I''m highly unmotivated to fix the validation errors - any takers?

-- 
Paul
<http://paulgear.webhop.net>
--
Did you know?  OpenOffice.org has built-in PDF creation.  Better yet,
it''s compatible with Microsoft Office, and free!  Find out more at
<http://www.openoffice.org>.
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Paul,

This site might be better hosted on a colocation server with lots of
reliable bandwidth, which I had previously offered, and still have
available. FWIW, I have installed and managed several Drupal sites over the
last three years. Let me know if I can help. (BTW, it looks like the only
available content type at the moment is a poll.)

Ron

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Paul Gear [mailto:pgear@redlands.qld.edu.au] 
> Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2005 5:43 PM
> To: Shorewall Development
> Subject: [Shorewall-devel] Shorewall development web site
> 
> Hi folks,
> 
> Last night and this morning i''ve hacked up a quick web site 
> for coordinating our development work based on Drupal 
> (http://drupal.org).
>  You can find it at:
> 	http://shorewall.dyndns.org
> 
> I''ve put a few ideas in there - feel free to use the comments 
> or sign up for an account and create your own pages 
> (particularly in the two books about development and web site 
> work).  If you do sign up for an account, please make the 
> name the same as your shorewall.net account if you have one.
> 
> I see this as a trial of how a dynamic documentation/web site 
> might work.  If there''s anything you think is needed, please 
> let me know and i''ll try to find a drupal module to do it.
> 
> A special plea: don''t list this site on any high-traffic 
> sites like slashdot.  My ADSL connection won''t handle it, and 
> it will just get in the way our work.
> 
> Regards,
> Paul
> 
> --
> Paul Gear, Manager IT Operations, Redlands College
> 38 Anson Road, Wellington Point 4160, Australia (Please send 
> attachments in portable formats such as PDF, HTML, or
> OpenOffice.)
> --
> The information contained in this message is copyright by 
> Redlands College.  Any use for direct sales or marketing 
> purposes is expressly forbidden.  This message does not 
> represent the views of Redlands College.
>

On Fri, 2005-05-27 at 03:50, Paul Gear wrote:
> Mike Noyes wrote:
> > Let me know if you need help with xhtml or css issues.
> > 
> >         Note: you have a few validation errors in your theme.
> >         http://validator.w3.org/
> > 
> > BTW, Drupal is a good CMS. Although, it seems they''re having
some issues
> > regarding the wiki.module (dwiki).
> 
> I''m highly unmotivated to fix the validation errors - any takers?
Paul,
This doesn''t look promising. Drupal requires a community with some
knowledge of xhtml, css, and semantically correct structure. :-(

I have some time to help, but not enough to monitor/correct mistakes
made by the community.

I took a quick look at your theme source. The first validation error is
the use of an anchor <a> as a child of title. Also, the semantic
structure is broken. You used tables for layout, and drupal moved to css
visual layout quite a while ago.

Let me know if you''d like me to work on this further.

-- 
Mike Noyes <mhnoyes at users.sourceforge.net>
http://sourceforge.net/users/mhnoyes/
SF.net Projects: leaf, phpwebsite, phpwebsite-comm, sitedocs

On Fri, 2005-05-27 at 03:50, Paul Gear wrote:
> Mike Noyes wrote:
> > Let me know if you need help with xhtml or css issues.
> > 
> >         Note: you have a few validation errors in your theme.
> >         http://validator.w3.org/
> > 
> > BTW, Drupal is a good CMS. Although, it seems they''re having
some issues
> > regarding the wiki.module (dwiki).
> 
> I''m highly unmotivated to fix the validation errors - any takers?
Paul,
The theme issue may be solvable by slightly modifying one of the themes
in the drupal theme garden.

        Drupal Theme Garden | Smell the Drupal Themes
        http://themes.drupal.org/


Note: I still see a content generation issue. :-(

-- 
Mike Noyes <mhnoyes at users.sourceforge.net>
http://sourceforge.net/users/mhnoyes/
SF.net Projects: leaf, phpwebsite, phpwebsite-comm, sitedocs

On Fri, 2005-05-27 at 12:40, Mike Noyes wrote:
> The theme issue may be solvable by slightly modifying one of the themes
> in the drupal theme garden.
> 
>         Drupal Theme Garden | Smell the Drupal Themes
>         http://themes.drupal.org/
Another Drupal theme link:
http://drupal.org/project/Themes

-- 
Mike Noyes <mhnoyes at users.sourceforge.net>
http://sourceforge.net/users/mhnoyes/
SF.net Projects: leaf, phpwebsite, phpwebsite-comm, sitedocs

Mike Noyes wrote:
> ...
> This doesn''t look promising. Drupal requires a community with some
> knowledge of xhtml, css, and semantically correct structure. :-(
There is one at drupal.org.  Feel free to submit your patches to them...
 ;-)
> ...
> Let me know if you''d like me to work on this further.
Ron is setting up a better-equipped drupal site for us as we speak.
When we get it in place, let''s have another look at the validation side
of things.

Perhaps you could have a look around at various drupal-based sites and
see which theme is going to get closest to valid?  I look at that sort
of thing and as long as it doesn''t look butt-ugly in Firefox, i
don''t
pay it much more attention.  Obviously you place more importance in
it...  :-)

-- 
Paul
<http://paulgear.webhop.net>
--
Did you know?  Most email-borne viruses use a false sender address, so
you cannot track down the sender using that address.  Instead, keep your
virus scanning software up-to-date and just delete any suspicious emails
you receive.
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On Fri, 2005-05-27 at 20:09, Paul Gear wrote:
> Mike Noyes wrote:
> > ...
> > This doesn''t look promising. Drupal requires a community with
some
> > knowledge of xhtml, css, and semantically correct structure. :-(
> 
> There is one at drupal.org.  Feel free to submit your patches to them...
>  ;-)
Paul,
I have enough trouble helping out with phpWebSite. :-(
The leaf website does serve pages as application/xhtml+xml to capable
browsers, and I try to make sure all pages validate as xhtml
transitional (strict isn''t possible with the stable version of
phpWebSite).

I try to keep tabs on many of the FOSS CMS. The Drupal team is doing
quite a bit right. So is the xaraya team, and of course plone.

        http://www.xaraya.com/
        http://plone.org/
> > ...
> > Let me know if you''d like me to work on this further.
> 
> Ron is setting up a better-equipped drupal site for us as we speak.
> When we get it in place, let''s have another look at the validation
side
> of things.
ok
> Perhaps you could have a look around at various drupal-based sites and
> see which theme is going to get closest to valid?  I look at that sort
> of thing and as long as it doesn''t look butt-ugly in Firefox, i
don''t
> pay it much more attention.  Obviously you place more importance in
> it...  :-)
>From what I saw on the theme sites, you have some good options. A css
visual formatting theme (scans tables) that is valid xhtml is what I''d
look for. Semantically correct structure and web content accessibility
are much harder to get right. I wouldn''t worry about them at first.

As for ugly css try these examples:

css zen garden
http://www.csszengarden.com/

CSS Reboot 2005
http://www.cssreboot.com/index.php?page=1&num=all
        http://www.duoh.com/
        http://vaclav.vancura.org/blog/index.php/en?
        http://chiseko.hosted.doosh.net/

-- 
Mike Noyes <mhnoyes at users.sourceforge.net>
http://sourceforge.net/users/mhnoyes/
SF.net Projects: leaf, phpwebsite, phpwebsite-comm, sitedocs

Hola,

> I think a champion for the samples is just what we need right now.
Well I did maintain them pretty much up to 2.1 .. Had health issues 
that left me out of the loop until recently

My challenge was making the samples formatting .. making them print as 
well as they look .. Not as easy as you might think .. Using just vi ..

I do run Shorewall in about 20 different DC''s on about 40 servers ..

If you need help here .. I will do it ..

Francesca Smith
Lady Linux Internet Services
Baltimore, Maryland 21217
"No Problems Only Solutions"

Tom Eastep wrote:
> ...
>>Let''s keep all of the mailing lists at sourceforge so we
don''t confuse
>>people by having them in too many different places.  Why don''t
i create
>>a shorewall-web mailing list where we can discuss this.  One of my
>>primary concerns is keeping the documentation in a form that easily
>>enables creating off-line PDF, text, and HTML versions of manual,
>>something most CMSes don''t lend themselves to.  I think we need
to
>>discuss carefully with the documentation team before we make any major
>>moves.
> 
> I agree, Paul.
> ...
> The arguments put forth to me for moving from HTML to Docbook were very
> similar to the arguments that you are now hearing for mitrating from
Docbook
> to CMS (increased user involvement). Mike Noyes, Paul Loudas and I spend
> *weeks* converting the documentation base from HTML to Docbook. While I
> concede that there were tangible benefits in terms of the uniform look and
> feel of the documentation, the change failed to result in even one new user
> contribution.
> 
> I also encourage you to remember the FAQ Wiki that Alex Martin set up --
> there were only a couple of small useful contributions in the entire time
> that the Wiki was in operation.
> 
> Docbook is an ideal format for producing PDF, text and HTML versions of the
> documenation. So I suggest that you look at the different available DTDs
> (such as Website) but I think that it would be a mistake to abandon Docbook
> solely in the belief that doing so will produce new quality documentation
to
> appear by magic.
My take is that i''d like to see the web site using a dynamic format
simply because it makes it easier for those who *do* contribute.  I
moved my own web site from plain text to Drupal just to make it less
work to maintain links and the like.  However, it''s not so good at
detailed documentation.

I''m working now on moving my content over from shorewall.dyndns.org to
devel.shorewall.net (shorewall.dyndns.org will then be pointed there).
Is it worth having a separate list for web and documentation discussion,
or are folks happy to have it here on the development list?

-- 
Paul
<http://paulgear.webhop.net>
--
Did you know?  If you receive a virus warning from a friend and not
through a virus software vendor, it''s likely to be a hoax.  See
<http://gear.dyndns.org:81/features/virus_hoaxes> for more info.
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Francesca Smith wrote:
> Hola,
> 
> 
>> I think a champion for the samples is just what we need right now.
> 
> 
> Well I did maintain them pretty much up to 2.1 .. Had health issues that
> left me out of the loop until recently
> ...
> If you need help here .. I will do it ..
Good to hear.  I think the main thing to start with would be to review
the current samples and check how well they reflect the current state of
Shorewall.

-- 
Paul
<http://paulgear.webhop.net>
--
Did you know?  Microsoft Internet Explorer and Outlook have a poor track
record for security <http://www.kb.cert.org/vuls/id/713878>.  Why not
try one of the more secure alternatives from <http://mozilla.org>?
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On Fri, 2005-05-27 at 22:29, Paul Gear wrote:
> Tom Eastep wrote:
> > ...
> >>One of my
> >>primary concerns is keeping the documentation in a form that easily
> >>enables creating off-line PDF, text, and HTML versions of manual,
> >>something most CMSes don''t lend themselves to.  I think we
need to
> >>discuss carefully with the documentation team before we make any
major
> >>moves.
> > 
> > I agree, Paul.
Paul,
I agree also.
> > ...
> > The arguments put forth to me for moving from HTML to Docbook were
very
> > similar to the arguments that you are now hearing for mitrating from
Docbook
> > to CMS (increased user involvement). Mike Noyes, Paul Loudas and I
spend
> > *weeks* converting the documentation base from HTML to Docbook. While
I
> > concede that there were tangible benefits in terms of the uniform look
and
> > feel of the documentation, the change failed to result in even one new
user
> > contribution.
Yep. :-(
> > I also encourage you to remember the FAQ Wiki that Alex Martin set up
--
> > there were only a couple of small useful contributions in the entire
time
> > that the Wiki was in operation.
Yep. :-(

        BTW, I was a advocate for both, so my track record is poor.

> > Docbook is an ideal format for producing PDF, text and HTML versions
of the
> > documenation. So I suggest that you look at the different available
DTDs
> > (such as Website) but I think that it would be a mistake to abandon
Docbook
> > solely in the belief that doing so will produce new quality
documentation to
> > appear by magic.
I believe this is the best interim step.
> My take is that i''d like to see the web site using a dynamic
format
> simply because it makes it easier for those who *do* contribute.  I
> moved my own web site from plain text to Drupal just to make it less
> work to maintain links and the like.  However, it''s not so good at
> detailed documentation.
Right. My take on this is 

        large documents --  docbook xml
                * stored in cvs for versioning and workflow
                * allows generation of many target presentations through
                xsl (xsl-fo, xslt)

        extremely dynamic documentation -- wiki
                * must support content export (preferably to xml)
                * syntax is easy to grasp and parse is forgiving
        
        website -- CMS or static (everything else)
                * must support extraction of content (preferably to xml)
                * must support mirroring

Example (leaf):
http://leaf-project.org/ <-- website CMS phpWebSite
        http://cvs.sourceforge.net/viewcvs.py/leaf/sourceforge/phpwebsite/
<-- content export (mysql xml dump).

http://leaf-project.org/doc/guide/ <-- guides DocBook XML
        http://cvs.sourceforge.net/viewcvs.py/leaf/doc/guide/ <--
        DocBook xml source

http://leaf-project.org/wiki/ <-- pending
        https://sourceforge.net/docman/?group_id=13751 <-- current FAQs
        (really bad and in need of conversion to a wiki)

        Note: all of the above need work of one type or another. :-(

> I''m working now on moving my content over from
shorewall.dyndns.org to
> devel.shorewall.net (shorewall.dyndns.org will then be pointed there).
> Is it worth having a separate list for web and documentation discussion,
> or are folks happy to have it here on the development list?
This should be a short term discussion, so I don''t believe it merits a
new mailing list. We conducted the wiki and docbook discussions here in
the past.

-- 
Mike Noyes <mhnoyes at users.sourceforge.net>
http://sourceforge.net/users/mhnoyes/
SF.net Projects: leaf, phpwebsite, phpwebsite-comm, sitedocs

On Fri, 2005-05-27 at 22:29, Paul Gear wrote:
> Tom Eastep wrote:
> >> One of my
> >>primary concerns is keeping the documentation in a form that easily
> >>enables creating off-line PDF, text, and HTML versions of manual,
> >>something most CMSes don''t lend themselves to. 
Paul,
The only CMS I''m aware of with useful DMS features is Plone. Plone has
some of the Lampadas (now dead) feature set. It has the necessary
workflow, versioning, and can generate pdf from content.

        Plone2PDF
        http://plone.org/products/plone2pdf

        Lampadas Documentation Management System
        http://www.lampadas.org/

-- 
Mike Noyes <mhnoyes at users.sourceforge.net>
http://sourceforge.net/users/mhnoyes/
SF.net Projects: leaf, phpwebsite, phpwebsite-comm, sitedocs

> On Fri, 2005-05-27 at 22:29, Paul Gear wrote:
> > Tom Eastep wrote:
> > >> One of my
> > >>primary concerns is keeping the documentation in a form 
> that easily 
> > >>enables creating off-line PDF, text, and HTML versions of
manual,
> > >>something most CMSes don''t lend themselves to.
> 
> Paul,
> The only CMS I''m aware of with useful DMS features is Plone. 
> Plone has some of the Lampadas (now dead) feature set. It has 
> the necessary workflow, versioning, and can generate pdf from content.
> 
>         Plone2PDF
>         http://plone.org/products/plone2pdf
> 
>         Lampadas Documentation Management System
>         http://www.lampadas.org/
Mike,

Plone is excellent (yea python) however, in my experience it is (possible
but) not trivial to run under Apache in a shared or virtual hosting
environment. I have done it, but it''s much easier to deploy and
maintain on
a dedicated server, or an existing Zope/Plone specialist hosting service,
such as http://zettai.net. Nevertheless, if there''s an imperative for
Plone,
I have a clean virtual host where I can do it.

Ron

On Sat, 2005-05-28 at 11:05, Ron Shannon wrote:
Mike Noyes wrote:
> > The only CMS I''m aware of with useful DMS features is Plone. 
> > Plone has some of the Lampadas (now dead) feature set. It has 
> > the necessary workflow, versioning, and can generate pdf from content.
> 
> Plone is excellent (yea python) however, in my experience it is (possible
> but) not trivial to run under Apache in a shared or virtual hosting
> environment. I have done it, but it''s much easier to deploy and
maintain on
> a dedicated server, or an existing Zope/Plone specialist hosting service,
> such as http://zettai.net. Nevertheless, if there''s an imperative
for Plone,
> I have a clean virtual host where I can do it.
Ron,
That was my impression too, and is why LEAF doesn''t run Plone on
SourceForge. I''m not even sure python/zope/plone will run on SF. It
wouldn''t the last time I evaluated it (before the SF web farm moved to
FC2).

-- 
Mike Noyes <mhnoyes at users.sourceforge.net>
http://sourceforge.net/users/mhnoyes/
SF.net Projects: leaf, phpwebsite, phpwebsite-comm, sitedocs

Lets see..

I''m strongly against changing the documentation format.
whats the point of DocBook??

1. is easy to mantain
2. is easy to covert it to a wide range of formats.
3 and even is easy to localize.


about the website:

This topic should be discussed longer, Im thinking in better way to
manage the on-site documentation,my first aprroach for the problem was
using PHP XSLT  to convert the XML docs to html on the fly,and then
caching the results(if not changed)(then a cron doing "cvs few times a
day will do the trick) but performance was an absolute disaster.

and if you are thinking about a CMS,please think about one in PHP,if
you suggest a Python one,you have to mantain it, or code for it if
necesary,since I don''t have Python skills.

bye

On Sat, 2005-05-28 at 15:05, Cristian Rodriguez wrote:
> I''m strongly against changing the documentation format.
> whats the point of DocBook??
> 
> 1. is easy to mantain
> 2. is easy to covert it to a wide range of formats.
> 3 and even is easy to localize.
Cristian,
I agree. That''s why I suggested the DocBook Website DTD.
> about the website:
> 
> This topic should be discussed longer, Im thinking in better way to
> manage the on-site documentation,my first aprroach for the problem was
> using PHP XSLT  to convert the XML docs to html on the fly,and then
> caching the results(if not changed)(then a cron doing "cvs few times a
> day will do the trick) but performance was an absolute disaster.
You''ll need a host that has php5 installed. Libxml2 wasn''t
part of php4.

        XML in PHP 5 - What''s New?
        http://www.zend.com/php5/articles/php5-xmlphp.php
> and if you are thinking about a CMS,please think about one in PHP,if
> you suggest a Python one,you have to mantain it, or code for it if
> necesary,since I don''t have Python skills.
I have no programming skills. I''m just making suggestions. I help when
and where I''m able. If requested, I''ll stop making
suggestions.

The extent of my php skills:
http://cvs.sourceforge.net/viewcvs.py/phpwebsite-comm/themes/debug/theme.php?rev=1.25&view=auto

-- 
Mike Noyes <mhnoyes at users.sourceforge.net>
http://sourceforge.net/users/mhnoyes/
SF.net Projects: leaf, phpwebsite, phpwebsite-comm, sitedocs

2005/5/28, Mike Noyes <mhnoyes@users.sourceforge.net>:
> >
> > This topic should be discussed longer, Im thinking in better way to
> > manage the on-site documentation,my first aprroach for the problem was
> > using PHP XSLT  to convert the XML docs to html on the fly,and then
> > caching the results(if not changed)(then a cron doing "cvs few
times a
> > day will do the trick) but performance was an absolute disaster.
> 
> You''ll need a host that has php5 installed. Libxml2
wasn''t part of php4.
> 
>         XML in PHP 5 - What''s New?
>         http://www.zend.com/php5/articles/php5-xmlphp.php


I ''ll take a look to the issue soon. other suggestions?
> I have no programming skills. I''m just making suggestions. I help
when
> and where I''m able. If requested, I''ll stop making
suggestions.
don ''t get me wrong, Mike.really. since english is not my native
language,sometimes my posts can be bad interpreted.
Im only tring to tell : "if the CMS needs to be customized,I can''t
,because I don''t have any Python skills."

suggestions are always welcome Mike,thank you very much for your comments.

On Sat, 2005-05-28 at 18:51, Cristian Rodriguez wrote:
> 2005/5/28, Mike Noyes <mhnoyes@users.sourceforge.net>:
> > Cristian Rodriguez wrote:
> > > This topic should be discussed longer, Im thinking in better way
to
> > > manage the on-site documentation,my first aprroach for the
problem was
> > > using PHP XSLT  to convert the XML docs to html on the fly,and
then
> > > caching the results(if not changed)(then a cron doing "cvs
few times a
> > > day will do the trick) but performance was an absolute disaster.
> > 
> > You''ll need a host that has php5 installed. Libxml2
wasn''t part of php4.
> 
> I ''ll take a look to the issue soon. other suggestions?
Cristian,
Dynamic XSL translation sounds like Cocoon. It requires quite a bit of
processing power on the server. Lenya uses Cocoon as a foundation like
Plone relies on Zope. These systems are not trivial to host.

        Apache Cocoon
        http://cocoon.apache.org/
        
        Apache Lenya
        http://lenya.apache.org/

Php just entered the dynamic xslt realm. Sablotron was never a widely
used option in php4. With the inclusion of libxml2 in php5 things should
start to move.

        Google string: php xslt libxml2

-- 
Mike Noyes <mhnoyes at users.sourceforge.net>
http://sourceforge.net/users/mhnoyes/
SF.net Projects: leaf, phpwebsite, phpwebsite-comm, sitedocs

Cristian Rodriguez wrote:
> Lets see..
> 
> I''m strongly against changing the documentation format.
> whats the point of DocBook??
> 
> 1. is easy to mantain
> 2. is easy to covert it to a wide range of formats.
> 3 and even is easy to localize.
I think we''ve pretty much got agreement on that part.  :-)

I think the important issue we''re facing is how best to involve the
Shorewall community in the process of keeping the documentation
(particularly the FAQ) up-to-date and relevant.

For the time being, we can work with documentation patches being sent to
this list the same as code, but integration between a CMS and DocBook
seems a better approach long-term.

-- 
Paul
<http://paulgear.webhop.net>
--
Did you know?  Email addresses can be forged easily.  This message is
signed with GNU Privacy Guard <http://www.gnupg.org> and Enigmail
<http://enigmail.mozdev.org> so you can be sure it comes from me.
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2005/5/29, Paul Gear <paul@gear.dyndns.org>:
> 
> I think the important issue we''re facing is how best to involve
the
> Shorewall community in the process of keeping the documentation
> (particularly the FAQ) up-to-date and relevant
mmm... any ideas?
a FAQ-o-matic ??
 
> For the time being, we can work with documentation patches being sent to
> this list the same as code, but integration between a CMS and DocBook
> seems a better approach long-term.
 In fact, I made a code that just works, but like I said,sadly the
performance is a real shame.
I''m currently looking other possibilities.
I ''ll keep you informed ;)

On Sun, 2005-05-29 at 14:45, Cristian Rodriguez wrote:
> 2005/5/29, Paul Gear <paul@gear.dyndns.org>:
> > I think the important issue we''re facing is how best to
involve the
> > Shorewall community in the process of keeping the documentation
> > (particularly the FAQ) up-to-date and relevant
> 
> mmm... any ideas?
> a FAQ-o-matic ??
Cristian,
A Drupal module would probably work better. Maybe the Article module?

        http://drupal.org/project/Modules

-- 
Mike Noyes <mhnoyes at users.sourceforge.net>
http://sourceforge.net/users/mhnoyes/
SF.net Projects: leaf, phpwebsite, phpwebsite-comm, sitedocs

Cristian Rodriguez wrote:
 
> 2005/5/29, Paul Gear <paul@gear.dyndns.org>:
> 
> > 
> > I think the important issue we''re facing is how best to
involve the
> > Shorewall community in the process of keeping the documentation 
> > (particularly the FAQ) up-to-date and relevant
> 
> mmm... any ideas?
> a FAQ-o-matic ??
Two difficulties in adding functionality for the the main web site:
If the site has to be mirrored, then so does any new function.
It''s not trivial, and probably not even worth trying, to support
mirror-distributed read-write in an FAQ system, or any other system that
contemplates interactive input, like comments, or any CMS. If the traffic
requires, interactive apps can be load-balanced across web servers, even
against redundant, synced databases and  such. However, I doubt that any
of our current or proposed Shorewall sites will get enough traffic to
require balancing for performance. Perhaps redundancy can be provided
adequately in other ways.

Second general issue with regard to the main site is that to some extent,
wherever it''s hosted (whether Sourceforge, standalone, VPS, or shared
hosting, etc.)
there are _some_ limitations to the hosting environment. Wrong PHP version,
can''t
run Zope, etc. My personal take is I think we would have more flexibility
with a VPS or standalone server infrastructure, but that may be just because
I
don''t have experience with Sourceforge''s project site hosting
capabilities
& limitations.
> > For the time being, we can work with documentation patches 
> being sent 
> > to this list the same as code, but integration between a CMS and 
> > DocBook seems a better approach long-term.
> 
>  In fact, I made a code that just works, but like I 
> said,sadly the performance is a real shame.
> I''m currently looking other possibilities.
> I ''ll keep you informed ;)
There have been a few rumblings about developing a DocBook module for Drupal
(http://drupal.org/node/17690). Perhaps someone in this group will get
inspired to pick up that baton and run with it.

I don''t believe there''s been any decision to use Drupal for
anything other
than the developer community site (http://devel.shorewall.net) yet, though
work there may inspire structure for the main web site
(http://shorewall.net) 
and/or vice versa.

In the meantime, and in the absence of a true DocBook module for Drupal, we
can try using the "book" content type on the devel site, or we can
look to
integrate a separate FAQ app. If we head in that direction, I''m partial
to
phpMyFAQ (http://www.phpmyfaq.de/) which does offer extensive XML support.
It
could be run alongside Drupal rather easily. I can load it up alongside
things
at the devel site so we can bang on it, if people would like to give it a
go.
Perhaps those with DocBook/XML experience can take a look at it and see if
it
_might_ be a viable route.

Ron

Christian wrote: 
> > Paul,
> > Ron needs to tweak the php.ini settings. Session info is
> being output
> > in the generated pages. It may be the session.save_handler or 
> > session.use_trans_sid. The W3C validator shows the problem,
> and this
> > can be a security hole.
> > 
> where is the phpinfo file to check what''s wrong and send you the 
> correct values?
http://devel.shorewall.net/phpinfo.php

FWIW, I might not get to it instantly, but I''ll fix this via PHP
overrides
in the .htaccess file, not the php.ini.


Ron

On Sun, 2005-05-29 at 18:59, Ron Shannon wrote:
> Two difficulties in adding functionality for the the main web site:
> If the site has to be mirrored, then so does any new function.
> It''s not trivial, and probably not even worth trying, to support
> mirror-distributed read-write in an FAQ system, or any other system that
> contemplates interactive input, like comments, or any CMS.
Ron,
This is how I do it for LEAF:

        Master
                * Periodic mysqldump
                * Instructions for mirror maintainers
        
        Mirror
                Initial setup:
                * Rsync master site with mysqldump and instructions.
                * Change any paths/settings to match local hosting
                environment
                * Import mysqldump
                * Generate rsync exclude list
                
                Cron:
                * Rsync master using exclude list
                * Import mysqldump

> If the traffic
> requires, interactive apps can be load-balanced across web servers, even
> against redundant, synced databases and  such. However, I doubt that any
> of our current or proposed Shorewall sites will get enough traffic to
> require balancing for performance. Perhaps redundancy can be provided
> adequately in other ways.
I don''t see the need for mirrors to be dynamic. They should only
represent content from a given point in the master website life.
> Second general issue with regard to the main site is that to some
>  extent, wherever it''s hosted (whether Sourceforge, standalone,
VPS, or
>  shared hosting, etc.) there are _some_ limitations to the hosting
>  environment. Wrong PHP version, can''t run Zope, etc. My personal
take
>  is I think we would have more flexibility with a VPS or standalone
>  server infrastructure, but that may be just because I don''t have
>  experience with Sourceforge''s project site hosting capabilities
&
>  limitations.
E07. Project Web, Shell and Database Services (en)
https://sourceforge.net/docman/display_doc.php?docid=4297&group_id=1

> There have been a few rumblings about developing a DocBook module for
Drupal
> (http://drupal.org/node/17690). Perhaps someone in this group will get
> inspired to pick up that baton and run with it.
I think most CMS have looked at a DocBook module. The problem was php4.
It wasn''t very good at xsl. Now that php5 has libxml2 support that may
change.
> Perhaps those with DocBook/XML experience can take a look at it and see if
> it _might_ be a viable route.
I''ll try to look at this in the next few days.

-- 
Mike Noyes <mhnoyes at users.sourceforge.net>
http://sourceforge.net/users/mhnoyes/
SF.net Projects: leaf, phpwebsite, phpwebsite-comm, sitedocs

Ron Shannon wrote:
>  ...
> There have been a few rumblings about developing a DocBook module for
Drupal
> (http://drupal.org/node/17690). Perhaps someone in this group will get
> inspired to pick up that baton and run with it.
I contacted two different drupal users who had posted about DocBook.
One said he hasn''t got around to it, the other hasn''t replied.
> ...
> I don''t believe there''s been any decision to use Drupal
for anything other
> than the developer community site (http://devel.shorewall.net) yet,
> though work there may inspire structure for the main web site 
> (http://shorewall.net) and/or vice versa.
That''s certainly my view.  Right now what we need is to make it easy
for
people to contribute to shorewall, hence the development site.  Perhaps
over time it may expand to be the Shorewall "community" site, or
something like that.
> ...
> In the meantime, and in the absence of a true DocBook module for Drupal, we
> can try using the "book" content type on the devel site, or we
can look to
> integrate a separate FAQ app.
I''ve been using books just because they offer a convenient way to make
hierarchical pages.  I don''t think they''ll scale to the level
we need
for documentation, but i would be happy to view the FAQ in that form.
Why don''t we try add a test version of the FAQ and see what people
think?

-- 
Paul
<http://paulgear.webhop.net>
--
Tired of paying for Microsoft Office?  Running an illegal copy and want
to make it legal?  Try OpenOffice.org!  It''s free and does most of the
things Microsoft Office does.  <http://www.openoffice.org>
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