Shorewall devel - Dec 2003 - Shorewall Documentation Updates, Request for Input

On Thu, 2003-12-04 at 14:41, Alex Martin wrote:
> I have the go ahead to fix documentation. For starters I will clean all
> extraneous crap from the markup. Then fix any errors and typos.
Alex,
What is the plan of attack?

    HTML cleanup?
    DocBook?
    Wiki?
> If anyone sees any gramatical errors or typos or needed clarifications or
> expansions or whatever, please post them here.
> 
> Or additional FAQ entries, etc, all will be considered.
> 
> I hope to keep most of this conversation on the shorewall-devel list.
I''m subscribed now.
> Any help appreciated.
-- 
Mike Noyes <mhnoyes at users.sourceforge.net>
http://sourceforge.net/users/mhnoyes/
SF.net Projects: ffl, leaf, phpwebsite, phpwebsite-comm, sitedocs

Let me think about this. I am going to investigate the cvs tree.

I guess if we go docbook, how will we export to html that coincides with 
the shorewall website? This is the most important thing.

-Alex

Mike Noyes wrote:
> On Thu, 2003-12-04 at 14:41, Alex Martin wrote:
> 
>>I have the go ahead to fix documentation. For starters I will clean all
>>extraneous crap from the markup. Then fix any errors and typos.
> 
> 
> Alex,
> What is the plan of attack?
> 
>     HTML cleanup?
>     DocBook?
>     Wiki?
> 
> 
>>If anyone sees any gramatical errors or typos or needed clarifications
or
>>expansions or whatever, please post them here.
>>
>>Or additional FAQ entries, etc, all will be considered.
>>
>>I hope to keep most of this conversation on the shorewall-devel list.
> 
> 
> I''m subscribed now.
> 
> 
>>Any help appreciated.
> 
>

On Thu, 4 Dec 2003, Alex Martin wrote:
> Let me think about this. I am going to investigate the cvs tree.
>
> I guess if we go docbook, how will we export to html that coincides with
> the shorewall website? This is the most important thing.
>
There is also a massive mailing list archive chocked full of links to the
current Web Site, including "Named Anchors".

-Tom
--
Tom Eastep    \ Nothing is foolproof to a sufficiently talented fool
Shoreline,     \ http://shorewall.net
Washington USA  \ teastep@shorewall.net

> There is also a massive mailing list archive chocked full of links to the
> current Web Site, including "Named Anchors".
What do you mean Named Anchors?

On Thu, 4 Dec 2003, Alex Martin wrote:
>
>
> > There is also a massive mailing list archive chocked full of links to
the
> > current Web Site, including "Named Anchors".
>
> What do you mean Named Anchors?
>
http://foo.bar.tld/page.html#NamedAnchor
                            ------------

-Tom
--
Tom Eastep    \ Nothing is foolproof to a sufficiently talented fool
Shoreline,     \ http://shorewall.net
Washington USA  \ teastep@shorewall.net

Hello,

I have the go ahead to fix documentation. For starters I will clean all
extraneous crap from the markup. Then fix any errors and typos.

If anyone sees any gramatical errors or typos or needed clarifications or
expansions or whatever, please post them here.

Or additional FAQ entries, etc, all will be considered.

I hope to keep most of this conversation on the shorewall-devel list.

Any help appreciated.

Thanks,

Alex Martin
http://www.rettc.com


_______________________________________________
Shorewall-users mailing list
Post: Shorewall-users@lists.shorewall.net
Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
https://lists.shorewall.net/mailman/listinfo/shorewall-users
Support: http://www.shorewall.net/support.htm
FAQ: http://www.shorewall.net/FAQ.htm

On Thu, 2003-12-04 at 14:41, Alex Martin wrote:
> I have the go ahead to fix documentation. For starters I will clean all
> extraneous crap from the markup. Then fix any errors and typos.
Alex,
For this task you''ll find Tidy is your friend.

    HTML Tidy Library Project
    http://tidy.sourceforge.net/

> If anyone sees any gramatical errors or typos or needed clarifications or
s/gramatical/grammatical/ ;)
> expansions or whatever, please post them here.
A glossary of terms might be useful.
> Or additional FAQ entries, etc, all will be considered.
> 
> I hope to keep most of this conversation on the shorewall-devel list.
Ugh. One more list to monitor. :-(

-- 
Mike Noyes <mhnoyes at users.sourceforge.net>
http://sourceforge.net/users/mhnoyes/
SF.net Projects: ffl, leaf, phpwebsite, phpwebsite-comm, sitedocs

_______________________________________________
Shorewall-users mailing list
Post: Shorewall-users@lists.shorewall.net
Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
https://lists.shorewall.net/mailman/listinfo/shorewall-users
Support: http://www.shorewall.net/support.htm
FAQ: http://www.shorewall.net/FAQ.htm

On Thu, 2003-12-04 at 16:30, Mike Noyes wrote:
>     DocBook?
The guides below describe the XSLT customization possible for DocBook
XML.

    DocBook XSL: The Complete Guide
    http://www.sagehill.net/docbookxsl/
    
        Part II. Stylesheet options
        http://www.sagehill.net/docbookxsl/OptionsPart.html
    
    DocBook XSL Stylesheet Documentation
    http://docbook.sourceforge.net/release/xsl/current/doc/
    
        HTML Parameter Reference
        http://docbook.sourceforge.net/release/xsl/current/doc/html/index.html

-- 
Mike Noyes <mhnoyes at users.sourceforge.net>
http://sourceforge.net/users/mhnoyes/
SF.net Projects: ffl, leaf, phpwebsite, phpwebsite-comm, sitedocs

On Thu, 2003-12-04 at 16:30, Mike Noyes wrote:
>     DocBook?
    XMLmind XML Editor -- Java DocBook editor
    http://www.xmlmind.com/xmleditor/download.shtml
    
    xsltproc -- command line DocBook parser
    http://xmlsoft.org/XSLT/xsltproc2.html
    
    xmllint -- command line DocBook validator
    http://xmlsoft.org/xmllint.html
    
    FOP -- XSL-FO to PDF formatter
    http://xml.apache.org/fop/

-- 
Mike Noyes <mhnoyes at users.sourceforge.net>
http://sourceforge.net/users/mhnoyes/
SF.net Projects: ffl, leaf, phpwebsite, phpwebsite-comm, sitedocs

On Thu, 2003-12-04 at 16:30, Mike Noyes wrote:
>     Wiki?
LDP WikiText Editing HOWTO
http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/WikiText-HOWTO/index.html

    4. Why Would I Want to Use One?
    http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/WikiText-HOWTO/why-wiki.html

Alex,
The wiki we chose needs to support:
    a. Revision control
    b. Access control
    c. Preformatted text
    d. Tables
    e. tx2db
        http://www.tldp.org/wt2db/
        http://www.tldp.org/downloads/wt2db-0.6.tar.gz
    f. DocBook/XML import
    g. other????

Wiki Engines
http://c2.com/cgi-bin/wiki?WikiEngines

    MediaWiki
        lang: php
        supports: abcde
        MediaWiki User''s Guide: Editing overview
       
http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/MediaWiki_User%27s_Guide%3A_Editing_overview
    http://wikipedia.sourceforge.net/

    PhpWiki
        lang: php
        supports: abcd
        Text Formatting Rules
        http://phpwiki.sourceforge.net/phpwiki/TextFormattingRules
    http://phpwiki.sourceforge.net/phpwiki/

    TWiki
        lang: perl
        supports: abcd
        TWiki Text Formatting
        http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/TWiki/TextFormattingRules
    http://twiki.org/

    MoinMoin
        lang: python
        supports: abcdf
        Page Editing
        http://twistedmatrix.com/users/jh.twistd/moin/moin.cgi/HelpOnEditing
    http://moin.sourceforge.net/


This is the best information I''ve come up with so far.

-- 
Mike Noyes <mhnoyes at users.sourceforge.net>
http://sourceforge.net/users/mhnoyes/
SF.net Projects: ffl, leaf, phpwebsite, phpwebsite-comm, sitedocs

Redirected back to the list.

On Fri, 2003-12-05 at 12:31, Steve Herber wrote:
> Why does shorewall need a wiki?  I know it is all the rage but I find them 
> uselsee.  A package to consider is faq-o-matic.
> 
> 	http://faqomatic.sourceforge.net/fom-serve/cache/1.html
> 
> It is a simple perl script.
Steve,
Yes there are quite a few FAQ scripts on SourceForge and Freshmeat. They
are a valid alternative to a Wiki.

faq
http://sourceforge.net/search/

http://freshmeat.net/search/?q=%2Bfaq&filter=&orderby=popularity_percent_DESC


I think you may agree that the Shorewall FAQs would be better off in
either system, than in CVS where they now reside.

-- 
Mike Noyes <mhnoyes at users.sourceforge.net>
http://sourceforge.net/users/mhnoyes/
SF.net Projects: ffl, leaf, phpwebsite, phpwebsite-comm, sitedocs

On Fri, 2003-12-05 at 08:30, Mike Noyes wrote:
> On Thu, 2003-12-04 at 16:30, Mike Noyes wrote:
> >     DocBook?
> 
> The guides below describe the XSLT customization possible for DocBook
> XML.
> 
>     DocBook XSL: The Complete Guide
>     http://www.sagehill.net/docbookxsl/
>     
>         Part II. Stylesheet options
>         http://www.sagehill.net/docbookxsl/OptionsPart.html
>     
>     DocBook XSL Stylesheet Documentation
>     http://docbook.sourceforge.net/release/xsl/current/doc/
>     
>         HTML Parameter Reference
>        
http://docbook.sourceforge.net/release/xsl/current/doc/html/index.html
I now have a reading list that will take me a month or more, given my
lack of free time -- exactly what do I need to read to be able to edit
documents with XXE (which I''ve managed to install)?

Thanks,
-Tom
-- 
Tom Eastep    \ Nothing is foolproof to a sufficiently talented fool
Shoreline,     \ http://shorewall.net
Washington USA  \ teastep@shorewall.net

http://www.docbook.org/wiki/moin.cgi/DocBookAuthoringTools

Might be a start.

-- 
Steve Herber	herber@thing.com		work: 206-221-7262
Security Engineer, UW Medicine, IT Services	home: 425-454-2399

On Fri, 5 Dec 2003, Tom Eastep wrote:
> On Fri, 2003-12-05 at 08:30, Mike Noyes wrote:
> > On Thu, 2003-12-04 at 16:30, Mike Noyes wrote:
> > >     DocBook?
> > 
> > The guides below describe the XSLT customization possible for DocBook
> > XML.
> > 
> >     DocBook XSL: The Complete Guide
> >     http://www.sagehill.net/docbookxsl/
> >     
> >         Part II. Stylesheet options
> >         http://www.sagehill.net/docbookxsl/OptionsPart.html
> >     
> >     DocBook XSL Stylesheet Documentation
> >     http://docbook.sourceforge.net/release/xsl/current/doc/
> >     
> >         HTML Parameter Reference
> >        
http://docbook.sourceforge.net/release/xsl/current/doc/html/index.html
> 
> I now have a reading list that will take me a month or more, given my
> lack of free time -- exactly what do I need to read to be able to edit
> documents with XXE (which I''ve managed to install)?
> 
> Thanks,
> -Tom
>

On Fri, 2003-12-05 at 13:36, Tom Eastep wrote:
> I now have a reading list that will take me a month or more, given my
> lack of free time -- exactly what do I need to read to be able to edit
> documents with XXE (which I''ve managed to install)?
Tom,
The xxe tutorial is a good place to start, and I''m on irc.slashnet.org
#leaf for more immediate help.

    XMLmind XML Editor (XXE) Tutorial
    http://www.xmlmind.com/xmleditor/tutorial.html

-- 
Mike Noyes <mhnoyes at users.sourceforge.net>
http://sourceforge.net/users/mhnoyes/
SF.net Projects: ffl, leaf, phpwebsite, phpwebsite-comm, sitedocs

On Fri, 2003-12-05 at 14:09, Mike Noyes wrote:
> On Fri, 2003-12-05 at 13:36, Tom Eastep wrote:
> > I now have a reading list that will take me a month or more, given my
> > lack of free time -- exactly what do I need to read to be able to edit
> > documents with XXE (which I''ve managed to install)?
> 
> Tom,
> The xxe tutorial is a good place to start, and I''m on
irc.slashnet.org
> #leaf for more immediate help.
> 
>     XMLmind XML Editor (XXE) Tutorial
>     http://www.xmlmind.com/xmleditor/tutorial.html
Thanks, Mike.

-Tom
-- 
Tom Eastep    \ Nothing is foolproof to a sufficiently talented fool
Shoreline,     \ http://shorewall.net
Washington USA  \ teastep@shorewall.net

On Fri, 2003-12-05 at 14:23, Tom Eastep wrote:
> On Fri, 2003-12-05 at 14:09, Mike Noyes wrote:
> > On Fri, 2003-12-05 at 13:36, Tom Eastep wrote:
> > > I now have a reading list that will take me a month or more,
given my
> > > lack of free time -- exactly what do I need to read to be able to
edit
> > > documents with XXE (which I''ve managed to install)?
> > 
> > Tom,
> > The xxe tutorial is a good place to start, and I''m on
irc.slashnet.org
> > #leaf for more immediate help.
> > 
> >     XMLmind XML Editor (XXE) Tutorial
> >     http://www.xmlmind.com/xmleditor/tutorial.html
> 
> Thanks, Mike.
Tom,
I recommend keeping the guide liked below open while editing. It will
answer many questions about what a particular element does. This is the
Simplified DocBook DTD, so it''s a litter easier to understand as
it''s a
subset of full DocBook.

    Simplified DocBook: The Definitive Guide
    http://www.docbook.org/tdg/simple/en/html/sdocbook.html


Only use the guide below after you gain some familiarity with DocBook.

    DocBook: The Definitive Guide: Reference
    http://www.docbook.org/tdg/en/html/part2.html

-- 
Mike Noyes <mhnoyes at users.sourceforge.net>
http://sourceforge.net/users/mhnoyes/
SF.net Projects: ffl, leaf, phpwebsite, phpwebsite-comm, sitedocs

On Fri, 2003-12-05 at 11:57, Mike Noyes wrote:
>     MediaWiki
>         lang: php
>         supports: abcde
>         MediaWiki User''s Guide: Editing overview
>        
http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/MediaWiki_User%27s_Guide%3A_Editing_overview
>     http://wikipedia.sourceforge.net/
Alex,
Table support in MediaWiki is very good.

http://en2.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia%3AHow_to_use_tables
http://en2.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia%3ASandbox

>     PhpWiki
>         lang: php
>         supports: abcd
>         Text Formatting Rules
>         http://phpwiki.sourceforge.net/phpwiki/TextFormattingRules
>     http://phpwiki.sourceforge.net/phpwiki/
The table model in phpWiki is painful to use, and not very functional.

I haven''t tried the others yet.

-- 
Mike Noyes <mhnoyes at users.sourceforge.net>
http://sourceforge.net/users/mhnoyes/
SF.net Projects: ffl, leaf, phpwebsite, phpwebsite-comm, sitedocs

On Fri, 2003-12-05 at 11:57, Mike Noyes wrote:
>     TWiki
>         lang: perl
>         supports: abcd
>         TWiki Text Formatting
>         http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/TWiki/TextFormattingRules
>     http://twiki.org/
Alex,
TWiki seems to have a usable table model.

Table:
http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/TWiki/TextFormattingRules
>     MoinMoin
>         lang: python
>         supports: abcdf
>         Page Editing
>        
http://twistedmatrix.com/users/jh.twistd/moin/moin.cgi/HelpOnEditing
>     http://moin.sourceforge.net/
As does Moin.

http://twistedmatrix.com/users/jh.twistd/moin/moin.cgi/HelpOnTables

-- 
Mike Noyes <mhnoyes at users.sourceforge.net>
http://sourceforge.net/users/mhnoyes/
SF.net Projects: ffl, leaf, phpwebsite, phpwebsite-comm, sitedocs

Alex,
Here is a meta discussion on the various Wiki table models.

Wiki markup tables
http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wiki_markup_tables

    Note: they indicate PhpWiki uses Wookee syntax, but I was unable to
    get their examples to work.

-- 
Mike Noyes <mhnoyes at users.sourceforge.net>
http://sourceforge.net/users/mhnoyes/
SF.net Projects: ffl, leaf, phpwebsite, phpwebsite-comm, sitedocs

On Fri, 2003-12-05 at 20:07, Mike Noyes wrote:
> On Fri, 2003-12-05 at 11:57, Mike Noyes wrote:
> >     PhpWiki
> >         lang: php
> >         supports: abcd
> >         Text Formatting Rules
> >         http://phpwiki.sourceforge.net/phpwiki/TextFormattingRules
> >     http://phpwiki.sourceforge.net/phpwiki/
> 
> The table model in phpWiki is painful to use, and not very functional.
Alex,
It looks like the new table model in PhpWiki (Dl Style) is garbage. :-(

    Dl Style Tables
    http://phpwiki.sourceforge.net/phpwiki/DlStyleTables

Some people are using the RichTablePlugin to work around the problem.

http://www.it.iitb.ac.in/~sameerds/phpwiki/index.php/RichTablePlugin

-- 
Mike Noyes <mhnoyes at users.sourceforge.net>
http://sourceforge.net/users/mhnoyes/
SF.net Projects: ffl, leaf, phpwebsite, phpwebsite-comm, sitedocs

On Fri, 2003-12-05 at 21:03, Mike Noyes wrote:
> It looks like the new table model in PhpWiki (Dl Style) is garbage. :-(
> 
>     Dl Style Tables
>     http://phpwiki.sourceforge.net/phpwiki/DlStyleTables
> 
> Some people are using the RichTablePlugin to work around the problem.
> 
> http://www.it.iitb.ac.in/~sameerds/phpwiki/index.php/RichTablePlugin
Alex,
Here are the results after playing with PhpWiki''s DlStyleTables.

    http://wiki.rettc.com/index.php/BetaFaqNumber1

It''s not very good compared with the results I got with MediaWiki.

-- 
Mike Noyes <mhnoyes at users.sourceforge.net>
http://sourceforge.net/users/mhnoyes/
SF.net Projects: ffl, leaf, phpwebsite, phpwebsite-comm, sitedocs

On Fri, 2003-12-05 at 21:36, Mike Noyes wrote:
> Here are the results after playing with PhpWiki''s DlStyleTables.
> 
>     http://wiki.rettc.com/index.php/BetaFaqNumber1
Alex,
It looks like I exposed a PhpWiki bug (page conflict resolution
related). The Wiki is no longer accessible.

I think we should try MediaWiki. If you concur, please install it at
your convenience. Thanks.

-- 
Mike Noyes <mhnoyes at users.sourceforge.net>
http://sourceforge.net/users/mhnoyes/
SF.net Projects: ffl, leaf, phpwebsite, phpwebsite-comm, sitedocs

Hello,

A dirty little secret, that wiki is (was) running on a box with a 
corrupt libc6 (remember i said i like ot break things that work).

Apache still is going. Unfortunately, I am in Colorado, and the box is 
in Seattle.

I will fix it over xmas.

But, I definitely will install mediawiki.

-Alex



Mike Noyes wrote:
> On Fri, 2003-12-05 at 21:36, Mike Noyes wrote:
> 
>>Here are the results after playing with PhpWiki''s
DlStyleTables.
>>
>>    http://wiki.rettc.com/index.php/BetaFaqNumber1
> 
> 
> Alex,
> It looks like I exposed a PhpWiki bug (page conflict resolution
> related). The Wiki is no longer accessible.
> 
> I think we should try MediaWiki. If you concur, please install it at
> your convenience. Thanks.
>

On 7 Dec 2003 at 16:29, Alex Martin wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> A dirty little secret, that wiki is (was) running on a box with a
> corrupt libc6 (remember i said i like ot break things that work).
> 
> Apache still is going. Unfortunately, I am in Colorado, and the box 
is
> in Seattle.
> 
> I will fix it over xmas.
> 
> But, I definitely will install mediawiki.
> 
> -Alex
You''re not  going to let a little thing like 800 miles
slow you down are you Alex?  ;-)

-- 
______________________________________
John Andersen
NORCOM / Juneau, Alaska
http://www.screenio.com/
(907) 790-3386

._______________________________________
John S. Andersen
NORCOM  mailto:JAndersen@norcomsoftware.com
Juneau, Alaska
http://www.screenio.com/

Hello,

I am back. Had a little siesta. I think I am detecting some docbook 
interest from Tom? If you (Tom and Mike) might let me know where you are 
at, what you are thinking in terms of the future, I would appreciate it.

Over xmas, I will be free of physics for a few weeks, and will have lots 
of time to push on this stuff. I definitely think that docbook/xml is 
beneficial for many reasons, the main problem is backwards compatibility 
with, for example, the links in the mailing list archives.

One solution is simply to leave all of the dependant link data live, but 
move the current website to point to a docbook generated site?

So, please let me know where you are at. I will make some more 
development boxes when I''m in seattle so that I will not crash my live 
servers (sorry tom), and so that there will be hosting for wikis or 
whatever. I have the main box on redundant OC-3''s, but I also have a 64
node network on a 512kb line. This is where I should have put the backup 
mirror Tom, I just didn''t have any hardware there. But I will do this.

So, let me know what you are thinking please.

-Alex

Tom Eastep wrote:
> On Fri, 2003-12-05 at 08:30, Mike Noyes wrote:
> 
>>On Thu, 2003-12-04 at 16:30, Mike Noyes wrote:
>>
>>>    DocBook?
>>
>>The guides below describe the XSLT customization possible for DocBook
>>XML.
>>
>>    DocBook XSL: The Complete Guide
>>    http://www.sagehill.net/docbookxsl/
>>    
>>        Part II. Stylesheet options
>>        http://www.sagehill.net/docbookxsl/OptionsPart.html
>>    
>>    DocBook XSL Stylesheet Documentation
>>    http://docbook.sourceforge.net/release/xsl/current/doc/
>>    
>>        HTML Parameter Reference
>>       
http://docbook.sourceforge.net/release/xsl/current/doc/html/index.html
> 
> 
> I now have a reading list that will take me a month or more, given my
> lack of free time -- exactly what do I need to read to be able to edit
> documents with XXE (which I''ve managed to install)?
> 
> Thanks,
> -Tom

On Sun, 7 Dec 2003, Alex Martin wrote:
> A dirty little secret, that wiki is (was) running on a box with a 
> corrupt libc6 (remember i said i like ot break things that work).
Including www.shorewall.net :-(

-Tom
-- 
Tom Eastep    \ Nothing is foolproof to a sufficiently talented fool
Shoreline,     \ http://shorewall.net
Washington USA  \ teastep@shorewall.net

On Sun, 7 Dec 2003, Alex Martin wrote:
> I am back. Had a little siesta. I think I am detecting some docbook 
> interest from Tom?
Let''s just say that I''m not openly hostile.

If you (Tom and Mike) might let me know where you are 
> at, what you are thinking in terms of the future, I would appreciate it.
> 
> Over xmas, I will be free of physics for a few weeks, and will have lots 
> of time to push on this stuff. I definitely think that docbook/xml is 
> beneficial for many reasons, the main problem is backwards compatibility 
> with, for example, the links in the mailing list archives.
> 
> One solution is simply to leave all of the dependant link data live, but 
> move the current website to point to a docbook generated site?
> 
Yep -- we can put the "new and maybe improved" site under a
"1.4/"
directory.
> So, please let me know where you are at. I will make some more 
> development boxes when I''m in seattle so that I will not crash my
live
> servers (sorry tom), and so that there will be hosting for wikis or 
> whatever. I have the main box on redundant OC-3''s, but I also have
a 64
> node network on a 512kb line. This is where I should have put the backup 
> mirror Tom, I just didn''t have any hardware there. But I will do
this.
> 
> So, let me know what you are thinking please.
> 
Ok with me -- if I get too frustrated with DocBook, I''ll just start 
editing the HTML again.

-Tom
-- 
Tom Eastep    \ Nothing is foolproof to a sufficiently talented fool
Shoreline,     \ http://shorewall.net
Washington USA  \ teastep@shorewall.net

On Sun, 2003-12-07 at 15:40, Alex Martin wrote:
> I am back. Had a little siesta. I think I am detecting some docbook 
> interest from Tom? If you (Tom and Mike) might let me know where you are 
> at, what you are thinking in terms of the future, I would appreciate it.
Alex,
This is Tom''s choice. I advocate Wiki for FAQs, and DocBook for
guides/howtos.

> Over xmas, I will be free of physics for a few weeks, and will have lots 
> of time to push on this stuff. I definitely think that docbook/xml is 
> beneficial for many reasons, the main problem is backwards compatibility 
> with, for example, the links in the mailing list archives.
> 
> One solution is simply to leave all of the dependant link data live, but 
> move the current website to point to a docbook generated site?
DocBook supports internal document named references.

    Example: 
        FAQ 1.1.1 has a named xref to faq2
        file:///home/mhnoyes/FAQ.htm#faq2
    
        FAQ 6.3 has a named xref to faq2a
        file:///home/mhnoyes/FAQ.htm#faq2a
    
        I even fixed the missing named xref to faq8 in FAQ 8.2.1.
        file:///home/mhnoyes/FAQ.htm#faq8

Symlinks can be used for any document (file) name changes.

    DocBook Elements:
        anchor ? A spot in the document
        http://www.docbook.org/tdg/en/html/anchor.html
        
            id attribute is used to create named cross reference target.
        
        xref ? A cross reference to another part of the document
        http://www.docbook.org/tdg/en/html/xref.html

> So, please let me know where you are at. I will make some more 
> development boxes when I''m in seattle so that I will not crash my
live
> servers (sorry tom), and so that there will be hosting for wikis or 
> whatever. I have the main box on redundant OC-3''s, but I also have
a 64
> node network on a 512kb line. This is where I should have put the backup 
> mirror Tom, I just didn''t have any hardware there. But I will do
this.
In addition to MediaWiki, I''d like to take a look at MoinMoin.

    http://dl.sourceforge.net/moin/moin-1.1.tgz

-- 
Mike Noyes <mhnoyes at users.sourceforge.net>
http://sourceforge.net/users/mhnoyes/
SF.net Projects: ffl, leaf, phpwebsite, phpwebsite-comm, sitedocs

On Sun, 2003-12-07 at 16:54, Tom Eastep wrote:
> Ok with me -- if I get too frustrated with DocBook, I''ll just
start
> editing the HTML again.
Tom,
The main thing to remember is DocBook XML isn''t used for presentation.
It''s all about structure and content. DocBook XSL is where 
presentation
is defined.

The most frustrating thing new DocBook users try to do is position
something a particular way with a specific look. Remembering the
separation of content from presentation takes a while.

-- 
Mike Noyes <mhnoyes at users.sourceforge.net>
http://sourceforge.net/users/mhnoyes/
SF.net Projects: ffl, leaf, phpwebsite, phpwebsite-comm, sitedocs

On Sun, 2003-12-07 at 17:10, Mike Noyes wrote:
> On Sun, 2003-12-07 at 15:40, Alex Martin wrote:
> > One solution is simply to leave all of the dependant link data live,
but
> > move the current website to point to a docbook generated site?
> 
> DocBook supports internal document named references.
Added internal xref for all FAQs. All the named references should work
as they do on the site now.

-- 
Mike Noyes <mhnoyes at users.sourceforge.net>
http://sourceforge.net/users/mhnoyes/
SF.net Projects: ffl, leaf, phpwebsite, phpwebsite-comm, sitedocs
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: faq.tgz
Type: application/x-gzip
Size: 32937 bytes
Desc: not available
Url :
http://lists.shorewall.net/pipermail/shorewall-devel/attachments/20031208/8f86dc09/faq.bin

On 7 Dec 2003, Mike Noyes wrote:
> On Sun, 2003-12-07 at 16:54, Tom Eastep wrote:
> > Ok with me -- if I get too frustrated with DocBook, I''ll just
start
> > editing the HTML again.
> 
> Tom,
> The main thing to remember is DocBook XML isn''t used for
presentation.
> It''s all about structure and content. DocBook XSL is where 
presentation
> is defined.
> 
So far, it sounds like a three-letter arcronym jungle -- XML, XSL, DTD, 
XXE, ...
> The most frustrating thing new DocBook users try to do is position
> something a particular way with a specific look. Remembering the
> separation of content from presentation takes a while.
> 
It will take some unlearning actually. I used systems like that 30 years
ago -- didn''t like them then either.  Remember that WYSIWYG was
invented
for a reason...

-Tom
-- 
Tom Eastep    \ Nothing is foolproof to a sufficiently talented fool
Shoreline,     \ http://shorewall.net
Washington USA  \ teastep@shorewall.net

On Sun, 2003-12-07 at 18:34, Tom Eastep wrote:
> On 7 Dec 2003, Mike Noyes wrote:
> 
> > On Sun, 2003-12-07 at 16:54, Tom Eastep wrote:
> > > Ok with me -- if I get too frustrated with DocBook, I''ll
just start
> > > editing the HTML again.
> > 
> > Tom,
> > The main thing to remember is DocBook XML isn''t used for
presentation.
> > It''s all about structure and content. DocBook XSL is where 
presentation
> > is defined.
> 
> So far, it sounds like a three-letter arcronym jungle -- XML, XSL, DTD, 
> XXE, ...
Tom,
Maybe this publishing model from Norman Walsh will help clarify the
acronym jungle.

    DocBook Publishing Model
    http://nwalsh.com/docbook/procdiagram/index.html


Extensible Markup Language (XML)
http://www.w3.org/XML/

The Extensible Stylesheet Language Family (XSL)
http://www.w3.org/Style/XSL/

    XSL Transformations (XSLT)
    http://www.w3.org/TR/xslt
    
Document Type Definition (DTD)

-- 
Mike Noyes <mhnoyes at users.sourceforge.net>
http://sourceforge.net/users/mhnoyes/
SF.net Projects: ffl, leaf, phpwebsite, phpwebsite-comm, sitedocs