Rails - Feb 2006 - Adding payment to an app: how hard and risky is it?

Hi all.

I have never implemented online payment and it''s the only thing that 
keeps me from accepting a project for a UK based client. (I must reply 
quickly!)

While I can afford spending an extra week - or 2 - to learn/try/tune the 
payment system, I must be sure to succeed before I accept the contract.
If you''ve already been through that path, any hints, links and/or 
starting points are welcome.

Requirement:
1/ work for U.K. users (buyers)
2/ at the minimum, allow payment with a Visa card.


Alain

-- 
Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.

Alain,

I''ve changed our electronic payment provider about tree times already.
Each time it took me no more than two hours to write an integration
code. Don''t be afraid, just make sure your provider has a web based
API available.

Cheers,
Kent.

On 2/14/06, Alain Ravet <alainravet-spam2004@yahoo.com>
wrote:
> Hi all.
>
> I have never implemented online payment and it''s the only thing
that
> keeps me from accepting a project for a UK based client. (I must reply
> quickly!)
>
> While I can afford spending an extra week - or 2 - to learn/try/tune the
> payment system, I must be sure to succeed before I accept the contract.
> If you''ve already been through that path, any hints, links and/or
> starting points are welcome.
>
> Requirement:
> 1/ work for U.K. users (buyers)
> 2/ at the minimum, allow payment with a Visa card.
>
>
> Alain
>
> --
> Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.
> _______________________________________________
> Rails mailing list
> Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org
> http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
>

Kent,

The obvious questions:
- why did you change providers?  What marks a good one from a bad one?
- who are you using now (as they''re presumably the best in your
experience)?

Thanks in advance

Dave M.

On 15/02/06, Kent Sibilev <ksruby@gmail.com>
wrote:
> Alain,
>
> I''ve changed our electronic payment provider about tree times
already.
> Each time it took me no more than two hours to write an integration
> code. Don''t be afraid, just make sure your provider has a web
based
> API available.
>
> Cheers,
> Kent.
>
> On 2/14/06, Alain Ravet <alainravet-spam2004@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Hi all.
> >
> > I have never implemented online payment and it''s the only
thing that
> > keeps me from accepting a project for a UK based client. (I must reply
> > quickly!)
> >
> > While I can afford spending an extra week - or 2 - to learn/try/tune
the
> > payment system, I must be sure to succeed before I accept the
contract.
> > If you''ve already been through that path, any hints, links
and/or
> > starting points are welcome.
> >
> > Requirement:
> > 1/ work for U.K. users (buyers)
> > 2/ at the minimum, allow payment with a Visa card.
> >
> >
> > Alain
> >
> > --
> > Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.
> > _______________________________________________
> > Rails mailing list
> > Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org
> > http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Rails mailing list
> Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org
> http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
>

Kent,

It is as hard and risky as your client chooses to make it.

Using something like Paypal, with Instant Payment Notification, has less 
risk and is relatively easy.

Storing actual credit card data and handling processing completely 
inside the application has much higher risk and is much harder.

The client in the end needs to make the decision, weighing the customer 
experience, acceptable risk and development costs.

All my applications take the Paypal with IPN route, simply because I 
want to focus on what I do best, and not worry about storing extremely 
sensitive information.

Using the shared experience and contributions of the Rails community 
most of the technical aspects are easy to overcome quickly.

-- 
Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.

On 2/14/06, Lon Baker <lon@speedymac.com> wrote:
> Kent,
>
> It is as hard and risky as your client chooses to make it.
>
> Using something like Paypal, with Instant Payment Notification, has less
> risk and is relatively easy.
>
> Storing actual credit card data and handling processing completely
> inside the application has much higher risk and is much harder.
>
> The client in the end needs to make the decision, weighing the customer
> experience, acceptable risk and development costs.
>
> All my applications take the Paypal with IPN route, simply because I
> want to focus on what I do best, and not worry about storing extremely
> sensitive information.
>
> Using the shared experience and contributions of the Rails community
> most of the technical aspects are easy to overcome quickly.
>
> --
> Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.
> _______________________________________________
> Rails mailing list
> Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org
> http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
>
DO NOT store credit card information.  That opens you to a world of
security problems and auditing expenses.

For me, I run Verisign Payflow Pro, and it was easy to setup and integrate.

--
Kyle Maxwell
Chief Technologist
E Factor Media // FN Interactive
kyle@efactormedia.com
1-866-263-3261

Kent,

   > I''ve changed our electronic payment provider about tree times
already.
   > Each time it took mKent,e no more than two hours to write an integration

It''s not surprising that modular design would make this happen.  But
it''s only about changing the last ring of the chain.

The main questions remain:
 - How hard is it to add payment to a web app (when you know nothing about it)?
Another way to ask it is :
 - What''s the simplest way to add electronic payment to a Rails web
app?

and also
 - How risky is it (traps to avoid?).

Alain

Kyle Maxwell wrote:
> DO NOT store credit card information.  That opens you to a world of
> security problems and auditing expenses.
> 
> For me, I run Verisign Payflow Pro, and it was easy to setup and 
> integrate.
How does one avoid this with recurring payments?

   Jake


-- 
Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.

Hi Alain

I would not recommend storing credit card information unless you are
in a shop which has the ressources and expertise required to deal with
this kind of things (which is usually not the case in places I''ve
seen! well, that''s a very specific job).

Instead you could have a look at providers such as
http://www.bibit.com/ (which I''ve used) or
http://www.atosworldline.com/UK/offerings/payment.htm (which I only
know by the number of sites here in france who delegate the payment to
atos).

When I used Bibit, it was relying on an XML API to create
transactions. The general idea is : after creating a transaction, you
get a dedicated URL (bibit hosted) where your customer is redirected
to enter payment details (you don''t even want to have access to that
information). The user is then redirected to your website etc.

Also that''s just an opiniated view I have, but a (non-small) european
ecommerce site should not rely exclusively on paypal, and should go
the credit card road to ensure a broader coverage.

hope this helps!

Thibaut Barr?re
--
[blog] http://www.dotnetguru2.org/tbarrere

On 2/14/06, Jake Janovetz <jake@janovetz.com>
wrote:
> Kyle Maxwell wrote:
> > DO NOT store credit card information.  That opens you to a world of
> > security problems and auditing expenses.
> >
> > For me, I run Verisign Payflow Pro, and it was easy to setup and
> > integrate.
>
> How does one avoid this with recurring payments?
VeriSign offers it as a service.  I would imagine that others do as well.

I''ve never set any of this up, but this thread got me interested in
the topic so I''ve been looking up some details.

-- James

On 2/14/06, Thibaut Barr?re <thibaut.barrere@gmail.com>
wrote:
> Also that''s just an opiniated view I have, but a (non-small)
european
> ecommerce site should not rely exclusively on paypal, and should go
> the credit card road to ensure a broader coverage.
PayPal accepts credit cards from non-members.

-- James

> PayPal accepts credit cards from non-members.
Well - then I change my opiniated view :) Thanks for the tip.

I''m in a similar situation... I''m considering building a site
where clients
can "one-click" purchase items for download, which would require some
type
of payment information storage. Is it possible to set up some type of
pre-authorized payment with the gateway, and then rely on the gateway to
store the info? This may be a totally crazy concept, but I''ve read some
things that lead me to believe that this was a possibility. It''s
similar to
taking recurring transactions, except that they are charged when they buy
something instead of on a fixed schedule.

Thanks!

Matt

On 2/14/06, Kyle Maxwell <kyle@kylemaxwell.com>
wrote:
>
> On 2/14/06, Lon Baker <lon@speedymac.com> wrote:
> > Kent,
> >
> > It is as hard and risky as your client chooses to make it.
> >
> > Using something like Paypal, with Instant Payment Notification, has
less
> > risk and is relatively easy.
> >
> > Storing actual credit card data and handling processing completely
> > inside the application has much higher risk and is much harder.
> >
> > The client in the end needs to make the decision, weighing the
customer
> > experience, acceptable risk and development costs.
> >
> > All my applications take the Paypal with IPN route, simply because I
> > want to focus on what I do best, and not worry about storing extremely
> > sensitive information.
> >
> > Using the shared experience and contributions of the Rails community
> > most of the technical aspects are easy to overcome quickly.
> >
> > --
> > Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.
> > _______________________________________________
> > Rails mailing list
> > Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org
> > http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
> >
>
> DO NOT store credit card information.  That opens you to a world of
> security problems and auditing expenses.
>
> For me, I run Verisign Payflow Pro, and it was easy to setup and
> integrate.
>
> --
> Kyle Maxwell
> Chief Technologist
> E Factor Media // FN Interactive
> kyle@efactormedia.com
> 1-866-263-3261
>
> _______________________________________________
> Rails mailing list
> Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org
> http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
>
>
>
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Hi everybody,

This is my first post to this list since joining yesterday.

There are two ways of doing this with Verisign''s Payflow Pro.

Recurring Billing

Verisign does have a recurring billing feature. You''ll have to pay
extra for
it, but if you want something simple it is the way to go. After you submit
the initial transaction, you can get rid of the credit card info. Verisign
will automatically bill the customer a fixed amount every period. Lots of
options for setting it up make it versatile. 

I didn''t like the batch process part of it though. They gather up all
your
recurring transactions planned for the day into one batch. You get the
results of the batch in an email that you would have to then manually
process somehow. I didn''t like the lack of control.

Referenced Billing

Well, that is what I call it anyway. After you submit the initial
transaction, you can get rid of the credit card info. Verisign gives you a
reference id that points to that transaction, which you can safely store in
your database. When your application decides it is time to bill again, it
can submit another transaction without having the customer involved. This
transaction will not contain any credit card data, because you don''t
know
it. You do include the reference id from the first transaction though, and
Verisign uses the credit card data from the referenced transaction in this
transaction. The nice thing here is that your system gets immediate feedback
as to the outcome with no manual processing! Also, you don''t have to
pay
extra for the recurring billing feature.

It doesn''t matter if some hacker steals your database and gets the
reference
id values. There is no way to use them to get the credit card data. 

Wiebe de Jong

-----Original Message-----
From: rails-bounces@lists.rubyonrails.org
[mailto:rails-bounces@lists.rubyonrails.org] On Behalf Of Jake Janovetz
Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2006 12:32 PM
To: rails@lists.rubyonrails.org
Subject: [Rails] Re: Re: Adding payment to an app: how hard and risky is it?

Kyle Maxwell wrote:
> DO NOT store credit card information.  That opens you to a world of
> security problems and auditing expenses.
> 
> For me, I run Verisign Payflow Pro, and it was easy to setup and 
> integrate.
How does one avoid this with recurring payments?

   Jake


-- 
Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.
_______________________________________________
Rails mailing list
Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org
http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails

Yes. This is definitely possible.

 

See the ''Referenced Billing with Verisign''s Payflow
Pro'' portion of my
previous post.

 

Wiebe de Jong

 

  _____  

From: rails-bounces@lists.rubyonrails.org
[mailto:rails-bounces@lists.rubyonrails.org] On Behalf Of Matt White
Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2006 12:53 PM
To: rails@lists.rubyonrails.org
Subject: Re: [Rails] Re: Adding payment to an app: how hard and risky is it?

 

I''m in a similar situation... I''m considering building a site
where clients
can "one-click" purchase items for download, which would require some
type
of payment information storage. Is it possible to set up some type of
pre-authorized payment with the gateway, and then rely on the gateway to
store the info? This may be a totally crazy concept, but I''ve read some
things that lead me to believe that this was a possibility. It''s
similar to
taking recurring transactions, except that they are charged when they buy
something instead of on a fixed schedule.

Thanks!

Matt

On 2/14/06, Kyle Maxwell <kyle@kylemaxwell.com> wrote:

On 2/14/06, Lon Baker <lon@speedymac.com> wrote:
> Kent,
>
> It is as hard and risky as your client chooses to make it.
>
> Using something like Paypal, with Instant Payment Notification, has less 
> risk and is relatively easy.
>
> Storing actual credit card data and handling processing completely
> inside the application has much higher risk and is much harder.
>
> The client in the end needs to make the decision, weighing the customer 
> experience, acceptable risk and development costs.
>
> All my applications take the Paypal with IPN route, simply because I
> want to focus on what I do best, and not worry about storing extremely 
> sensitive information.
>
> Using the shared experience and contributions of the Rails community
> most of the technical aspects are easy to overcome quickly.
>
> --
> Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.
> _______________________________________________
> Rails mailing list
> Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org  <mailto:Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org> 
> http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
>
DO NOT store credit card information.  That opens you to a world of
security problems and auditing expenses. 

For me, I run Verisign Payflow Pro, and it was easy to setup and integrate.

--
Kyle Maxwell
Chief Technologist
E Factor Media // FN Interactive
kyle@efactormedia.com  <mailto:kyle@efactormedia.com> 
1-866-263-3261

_______________________________________________
Rails mailing list
Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org
http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails



 

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James Ludlow wrote:
> VeriSign offers it as a service.  I would imagine that others do as 
> well.
> 
> I''ve never set any of this up, but this thread got me interested
in
> the topic so I''ve been looking up some details.
I use Authorize.net for an online store but it doesn''t use recurring / 
automated billing.  Authorize.net supports this feature, but I haven''t 
used it.

Has anyone used Authorize.net with a Rails app?

I assume the little guys like Basecamp, TextDrive are using something 
like a payment gateway with automated billing -- but store the last 
4-digits to display to the user, correct?

   Jake


-- 
Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.

We have used TrustCommerce''s product, "Vault", in the past.
http://www.trustcommerce.com/vault.php

It allows you to submit a customer''s credit card info into "the
vault"
and get back a unique ID - you can at a later date then just say "hey
vault, charge customer X for $30.00".

-Chad

Matt White wrote:
> I''m in a similar situation... I''m considering building a
site where
> clients can "one-click" purchase items for download, which would
require
> some type of payment information storage. Is it possible to set up some
> type of pre-authorized payment with the gateway, and then rely on the
> gateway to store the info? This may be a totally crazy concept, but
I''ve
> read some things that lead me to believe that this was a possibility.
> It''s similar to taking recurring transactions, except that they
are
> charged when they buy something instead of on a fixed schedule.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Matt
> 
> On 2/14/06, *Kyle Maxwell* <kyle@kylemaxwell.com
> <mailto:kyle@kylemaxwell.com>> wrote:
> 
>     On 2/14/06, Lon Baker <lon@speedymac.com
<mailto:lon@speedymac.com>>
>     wrote:
>     > Kent,
>     >
>     > It is as hard and risky as your client chooses to make it.
>     >
>     > Using something like Paypal, with Instant Payment Notification,
>     has less
>     > risk and is relatively easy.
>     >
>     > Storing actual credit card data and handling processing completely
>     > inside the application has much higher risk and is much harder.
>     >
>     > The client in the end needs to make the decision, weighing the
>     customer
>     > experience, acceptable risk and development costs.
>     >
>     > All my applications take the Paypal with IPN route, simply because
I
>     > want to focus on what I do best, and not worry about storing
>     extremely
>     > sensitive information.
>     >
>     > Using the shared experience and contributions of the Rails
community
>     > most of the technical aspects are easy to overcome quickly.
>     >
>     > --
>     > Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.
>     > _______________________________________________
>     > Rails mailing list
>     > Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org
<mailto:Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org>
>     > http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
>     >
> 
>     DO NOT store credit card information.  That opens you to a world of
>     security problems and auditing expenses.
> 
>     For me, I run Verisign Payflow Pro, and it was easy to setup and
>     integrate.
> 
>     --
>     Kyle Maxwell
>     Chief Technologist
>     E Factor Media // FN Interactive
>     kyle@efactormedia.com <mailto:kyle@efactormedia.com>
>     1-866-263-3261
> 
>     _______________________________________________
>     Rails mailing list
>     Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org <mailto:Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org>
>     http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Rails mailing list
> Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org
> http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
-- 
Chad Pytel, President
thoughtbot, inc.
organic brains. digital solutions.
----------------------------------
tel: 617.876.4780
fax: 866.217.5992
http://www.thoughtbot.com

Actually I didn''t change providers, my client did. I don''t
know
specific reasons for that. I am only interested in the technical part
of this process. From the technical prospective they are almost the
same. They all provide pretty much the same API and features like
credit card services, electronic checks, paypal services, etc.

We are currently using CyberSource. They provide SDK with C libraries
and it was just a matter of writing a small Ruby extension, nothing
serious really.

Kent

On 2/14/06, David Mitchell <monch1962@gmail.com>
wrote:
> Kent,
>
> The obvious questions:
> - why did you change providers?  What marks a good one from a bad one?
> - who are you using now (as they''re presumably the best in your
experience)?
>
> Thanks in advance
>
> Dave M.
>
> On 15/02/06, Kent Sibilev <ksruby@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Alain,
> >
> > I''ve changed our electronic payment provider about tree times
already.
> > Each time it took me no more than two hours to write an integration
> > code. Don''t be afraid, just make sure your provider has a web
based
> > API available.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Kent.
> >
> > On 2/14/06, Alain Ravet <alainravet-spam2004@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > Hi all.
> > >
> > > I have never implemented online payment and it''s the
only thing that
> > > keeps me from accepting a project for a UK based client. (I must
reply
> > > quickly!)
> > >
> > > While I can afford spending an extra week - or 2 - to
learn/try/tune the
> > > payment system, I must be sure to succeed before I accept the
contract.
> > > If you''ve already been through that path, any hints,
links and/or
> > > starting points are welcome.
> > >
> > > Requirement:
> > > 1/ work for U.K. users (buyers)
> > > 2/ at the minimum, allow payment with a Visa card.
> > >
> > >
> > > Alain
> > >
> > > --
> > > Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Rails mailing list
> > > Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org
> > > http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Rails mailing list
> > Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org
> > http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Rails mailing list
> Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org
> http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
>

Alain,

It''s not hard. Most providers like authorize.net provide a simple way
of
electronic payment through submitting a simple https post request with
certain parameters. When you are adding payment to your web app we just have
to be careful by not storing credit card numbers and especially CVV numbers
(which is strictly prohibited btw) in your database. At least try to avoid
it.

Kent

On 2/14/06, Alain Ravet <alain.ravet@gmail.com>
wrote:
>
> Kent,
>
>    > I''ve changed our electronic payment provider about tree
times
> already.
>    > Each time it took mKent,e no more than two hours to write an
> integration
>
> It''s not surprising that modular design would make this happen. 
But
> it''s only about changing the last ring of the chain.
>
> The main questions remain:
> - How hard is it to add payment to a web app (when you know nothing about
> it)?
> Another way to ask it is :
> - What''s the simplest way to add electronic payment to a Rails web
app?
>
> and also
> - How risky is it (traps to avoid?).
>
> Alain
> _______________________________________________
> Rails mailing list
> Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org
> http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
>
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> It''s not hard. Most providers like authorize.net provide a simple
way of
> electronic payment through submitting a simple https post request with
> certain parameters. When you are adding payment to your web app we just
have
> to be careful by not storing credit card numbers and especially CVV numbers
> (which is strictly prohibited btw) in your database. At least try to avoid
> it.
Check out www.modernauthorize.net -- they offer the same form submit
type gateway and very cheap to start up, although there are probably
fiscally better ones if you had large volumes of processing.  They use
bluepay (but you cant get it as cheap directly through bluepay iirc),
which I''ve written a class for.  Its fairly simplistic and might need
some tweaking for your application, but it works well.  If you go with
them, I wouldn''t mind sharing my class, just email me.

Joe Noon

On Tuesday 14 February 2006 3:23 pm, Jake Janovetz
wrote:
> James Ludlow wrote:
> > VeriSign offers it as a service.  I would imagine that others do as
> > well.
> >
> > I''ve never set any of this up, but this thread got me
interested in
> > the topic so I''ve been looking up some details.
>
> I use Authorize.net for an online store but it doesn''t use
recurring /
> automated billing.  Authorize.net supports this feature, but I
haven''t
> used it.
>
> Has anyone used Authorize.net with a Rails app?
>
> I assume the little guys like Basecamp, TextDrive are using something
> like a payment gateway with automated billing -- but store the last
> 4-digits to display to the user, correct?
>
>    Jake
There is a ruby gem called Payment that might be worth looking at.  It 
currently only supports one merchant, Authorize.net.  Perhaps the adoption of 
Rails might inspire more contributions to it, or even the development of a 
plugin.

Carl

Kent
    > Alain,
    > It''s not hard.

Is it so "not hard" that you could write a short
      "HowTo add Paypal payment to your app in 5 minutes"

for the wiki?
:)
The Flickr screen screencast has spoiled me.

Alain