Rails spinoffs - Jan 2008 - prototype/script.aculo.us ecosystem

Recently errtheblog (http://errtheblog.com/) put up a nice post about  
jQuery. Putting aside all the assertions about cleaner code and fewer  
lines of code than with Prototype, the one thing that struck me from  
his (and others'') writing and from direct inspection is this: jQuery  
seems to have a more of an ecosystem surrounding it. That is, more  
plugins, widgets, locked-and-loaded functionality you can plop into  
your app.

My purpose in writing this is to pose a few simple questions for  
discussion:

- Why does it not appear that Prototype/Scripty have such an ecosystem  
of extensions (as do Rails and jQuery)?
- If these extensions exist, how come they are so hard to track down?

My direct comparison, unfairly influenced by my greater experience  
with Prototype, is that there is little difference and that Prototype  
gives me more Rubyisms, so it feels more natural. Now that there is a  
new release, is there anyone in a position to provide a comparison of  
how Proto/Scripty have evolved to address perceived deficiencies  
(again, leaving aside aesthetic or religious things like underlying  
philosophy or "beautiful code"), and is there an existing of planned  
way to provide a repository of proto-based extensions. Really, who  
wants to write yet-another-date-picker or yet-another-photo-scroller?

Please don''t get this post wrong. I''m not planning to jump
over to
jQuery for anything. I just wanted to see what all the buzz was about  
-- and there is buzz.

Thanks in advance for your opinions.

--steve

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Check out http://scripteka.com - the Prototype extensions library :)
Maybe there should be a link to scripteka from Proto''s homepage?

-Nicolas

On Jan 14, 2008 5:56 PM, s.ross
<cwdinfo-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>
wrote:
>
> Recently errtheblog (http://errtheblog.com/) put up a nice post about
> jQuery. Putting aside all the assertions about cleaner code and fewer
> lines of code than with Prototype, the one thing that struck me from
> his (and others'') writing and from direct inspection is this:
jQuery
> seems to have a more of an ecosystem surrounding it. That is, more
> plugins, widgets, locked-and-loaded functionality you can plop into
> your app.
>
> My purpose in writing this is to pose a few simple questions for
> discussion:
>
> - Why does it not appear that Prototype/Scripty have such an ecosystem
> of extensions (as do Rails and jQuery)?
> - If these extensions exist, how come they are so hard to track down?
>
> My direct comparison, unfairly influenced by my greater experience
> with Prototype, is that there is little difference and that Prototype
> gives me more Rubyisms, so it feels more natural. Now that there is a
> new release, is there anyone in a position to provide a comparison of
> how Proto/Scripty have evolved to address perceived deficiencies
> (again, leaving aside aesthetic or religious things like underlying
> philosophy or "beautiful code"), and is there an existing of
planned
> way to provide a repository of proto-based extensions. Really, who
> wants to write yet-another-date-picker or yet-another-photo-scroller?
>
> Please don''t get this post wrong. I''m not planning to
jump over to
> jQuery for anything. I just wanted to see what all the buzz was about
> -- and there is buzz.
>
> Thanks in advance for your opinions.
>
> --steve
>
> >
>
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http://www.scripteka.com/

2008/1/14, s.ross
<cwdinfo-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>:
>
>
> Recently errtheblog (http://errtheblog.com/) put up a nice post about
> jQuery. Putting aside all the assertions about cleaner code and fewer
> lines of code than with Prototype, the one thing that struck me from
> his (and others'') writing and from direct inspection is this:
jQuery
> seems to have a more of an ecosystem surrounding it. That is, more
> plugins, widgets, locked-and-loaded functionality you can plop into
> your app.
>
> My purpose in writing this is to pose a few simple questions for
> discussion:
>
> - Why does it not appear that Prototype/Scripty have such an ecosystem
> of extensions (as do Rails and jQuery)?
> - If these extensions exist, how come they are so hard to track down?
>
> My direct comparison, unfairly influenced by my greater experience
> with Prototype, is that there is little difference and that Prototype
> gives me more Rubyisms, so it feels more natural. Now that there is a
> new release, is there anyone in a position to provide a comparison of
> how Proto/Scripty have evolved to address perceived deficiencies
> (again, leaving aside aesthetic or religious things like underlying
> philosophy or "beautiful code"), and is there an existing of
planned
> way to provide a repository of proto-based extensions. Really, who
> wants to write yet-another-date-picker or yet-another-photo-scroller?
>
> Please don''t get this post wrong. I''m not planning to
jump over to
> jQuery for anything. I just wanted to see what all the buzz was about
> -- and there is buzz.
>
> Thanks in advance for your opinions.
>
> --steve
>
> >
>
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I must bookmark this site.
thanks for the info

YNY

On Jan 15, 2008 3:11 AM, 
<a.rebholz-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>
wrote:
> http://www.scripteka.com/
>
> 2008/1/14, s.ross <cwdinfo-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>:
>
> >
> > Recently errtheblog (http://errtheblog.com/) put up a nice post about
> > jQuery. Putting aside all the assertions about cleaner code and fewer
> > lines of code than with Prototype, the one thing that struck me from
> > his (and others'') writing and from direct inspection is this:
jQuery
> > seems to have a more of an ecosystem surrounding it. That is, more
> > plugins, widgets, locked-and-loaded functionality you can plop into
> > your app.
> >
> > My purpose in writing this is to pose a few simple questions for
> > discussion:
> >
> > - Why does it not appear that Prototype/Scripty have such an ecosystem
> > of extensions (as do Rails and jQuery)?
> > - If these extensions exist, how come they are so hard to track down?
> >
> > My direct comparison, unfairly influenced by my greater experience
> > with Prototype, is that there is little difference and that Prototype
> > gives me more Rubyisms, so it feels more natural. Now that there is a
> > new release, is there anyone in a position to provide a comparison of
> > how Proto/Scripty have evolved to address perceived deficiencies
> > (again, leaving aside aesthetic or religious things like underlying
> > philosophy or "beautiful code"), and is there an existing of
planned
> > way to provide a repository of proto-based extensions. Really, who
> > wants to write yet-another-date-picker or yet-another-photo-scroller?
> >
> > Please don''t get this post wrong. I''m not planning
to jump over to
> > jQuery for anything. I just wanted to see what all the buzz was about
> > -- and there is buzz.
> >
> > Thanks in advance for your opinions.
> >
> > --steve
> > > >
> >
>


-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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which shines around me like a million suns
It calls me on and on across the universe...."
Accross The Universe   - The Beatles -
--------------------------------------------
Visit :
http://www.sabukhitam.com/
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Yuan Yudistira schrieb:
> I must bookmark this site.
> thanks for the info
>   
me too. thanks as well.
strange that i didn''t find this before even if i googled a lot for 
something like this.
probably it would make sense to have a link on the prototype page.

cheers
simon
> YNY
>
> On Jan 15, 2008 3:11 AM, 
<a.rebholz-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> wrote:
>   
>> http://www.scripteka.com/
>>
>> 2008/1/14, s.ross
<cwdinfo-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>:
>>
>>     
>>> Recently errtheblog (http://errtheblog.com/) put up a nice post
about
>>> jQuery. Putting aside all the assertions about cleaner code and
fewer
>>> lines of code than with Prototype, the one thing that struck me
from
>>> his (and others'') writing and from direct inspection is
this: jQuery
>>> seems to have a more of an ecosystem surrounding it. That is, more
>>> plugins, widgets, locked-and-loaded functionality you can plop into
>>> your app.
>>>
>>> My purpose in writing this is to pose a few simple questions for
>>> discussion:
>>>
>>> - Why does it not appear that Prototype/Scripty have such an
ecosystem
>>> of extensions (as do Rails and jQuery)?
>>> - If these extensions exist, how come they are so hard to track
down?
>>>
>>> My direct comparison, unfairly influenced by my greater experience
>>> with Prototype, is that there is little difference and that
Prototype
>>> gives me more Rubyisms, so it feels more natural. Now that there is
a
>>> new release, is there anyone in a position to provide a comparison
of
>>> how Proto/Scripty have evolved to address perceived deficiencies
>>> (again, leaving aside aesthetic or religious things like underlying
>>> philosophy or "beautiful code"), and is there an existing
of planned
>>> way to provide a repository of proto-based extensions. Really, who
>>> wants to write yet-another-date-picker or
yet-another-photo-scroller?
>>>
>>> Please don''t get this post wrong. I''m not
planning to jump over to
>>> jQuery for anything. I just wanted to see what all the buzz was
about
>>> -- and there is buzz.
>>>
>>> Thanks in advance for your opinions.
>>>
>>> --steve
>>>       
>
>
>
>   

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> Yuan Yudistira schrieb:
>> I must bookmark this site.
>> thanks for the info
>>
> me too. thanks as well.
> strange that i didn''t find this before even if i googled a lot for
> something like this.
> probably it would make sense to have a link on the prototype page.
>
> cheers
> simon
>> YNY
>>
>> On Jan 15, 2008 3:11 AM, 
<a.rebholz-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> wrote:
>>
>>> http://www.scripteka.com/

Well, the reason I asked the question in the first place is that there  
are a lot of plugins you can drop in to extend jQuery and it looks  
pretty appealing. From the responses, it''s clear that at least a  
couple of people were as ignorant of scripteka.com as I was.

I see Prototype/Scripty as the more natural alternative cuz I''m a  
Rails programmer, and am doing some sniff-testing of the two side-by- 
side. Idiomatically, they are different, but in common use-cases, the  
conclusion I''m drawing is:

- jQuery allows you to do zippy things in what seems to be fewer lines  
of code
- Once you stray outside the baked-in zippy stuff, the "fewer" part  
goes away as well
- Prototype/Scripty allow you to do zippy things, but you have to  
learn terminology that is more design pattern like so it appeals more  
to devs than designers
- Prototype/Scripty don''t automatically iterate collections so  
assigning behaviors can involve a few more characters of typing
- Scripty, in particular, supports some effects that everyone wants  
like the ubiquitous yellow fade
- Prototype, in particular, dovetails with Rails where jQuery requires  
a plugin that rewrites Rails helpers to do so
- UJS, which would make tying events to behaviors for Prototype relies  
on rewriting Rails helpers, so it breaks templating languages like Haml

The "compare prototype with jquery" Google search turns up a couple of
prominent blog postings. Fortunately, they are not all "jQuery rocks,  
Prototype is ugly," however, the noise on the Web is still more along  
those lines, so it''s a PR issue and despite how it "should"
be, some
people will choose what they perceive to be the latest greatest thing.  
Maybe that''s not who you want using Prototype (maybe that''s
not who
you want using Rails :).

The one thing that is pointed out relatively frequently is the  
difference in the documentation. If the Prototype/Scripty  
documentation could be unified and searchable, it would go a long way  
toward changing that argument.

Anyhow, that''s my grand experiment thus far.

Hope this is useful and not just off-topic.

On Jan 15, 2008, at 12:24 AM, simon wrote:


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Hey There,

        You''re certainly on to something there, the amount of plugins
and community support for jQuery dwarfs our efforts with prototype.
That isn''t to say it doesn''t exist, just unfortunately not as
strong,
at the moment. I found this proof in the number of components
contributed to ajaxrain where jquery has some 4X more than
prototype.   I also agree completely with unified documentation,  I
had created a Google CSE for all things prototype a while back which
can certainly help you refine your search,
http://positionabsolute.net/blog/2007/11/prototype-custom-search-engine.php

        I believe prototype to be the stronger framework, as noted yes
jQuery has some swift baked-in functionality that lets designers
easily add JS behaviors and smooth effects but when it comes down to
application development, my eggs are in prototype''s basket.  The only
way to change this situation is for us, the developers, to step up and
contribute more to the community.

Regards,
           Matt













On Jan 15, 12:48 pm, "s.ross"
<cwdi...-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>
wrote:
> > Yuan Yudistira schrieb:
> >> I must bookmark this site.
> >> thanks for the info
>
> > me too. thanks as well.
> > strange that i didn''t find this before even if i googled a
lot for
> > something like this.
> > probably it would make sense to have a link on the prototype page.
>
> > cheers
> > simon
> >> YNY
>
> >> On Jan 15, 2008 3:11 AM, 
<a.rebh...-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> wrote:
>
> >>>http://www.scripteka.com/
>
> Well, the reason I asked the question in the first place is that there
> are a lot of plugins you can drop in to extend jQuery and it looks
> pretty appealing. From the responses, it''s clear that at least a
> couple of people were as ignorant of scripteka.com as I was.
>
> I see Prototype/Scripty as the more natural alternative cuz I''m a
> Rails programmer, and am doing some sniff-testing of the two side-by-
> side. Idiomatically, they are different, but in common use-cases, the
> conclusion I''m drawing is:
>
> - jQuery allows you to do zippy things in what seems to be fewer lines
> of code
> - Once you stray outside the baked-in zippy stuff, the "fewer"
part
> goes away as well
> - Prototype/Scripty allow you to do zippy things, but you have to
> learn terminology that is more design pattern like so it appeals more
> to devs than designers
> - Prototype/Scripty don''t automatically iterate collections so
> assigning behaviors can involve a few more characters of typing
> - Scripty, in particular, supports some effects that everyone wants
> like the ubiquitous yellow fade
> - Prototype, in particular, dovetails with Rails where jQuery requires
> a plugin that rewrites Rails helpers to do so
> - UJS, which would make tying events to behaviors for Prototype relies
> on rewriting Rails helpers, so it breaks templating languages like Haml
>
> The "compare prototype with jquery" Google search turns up a
couple of
> prominent blog postings. Fortunately, they are not all "jQuery rocks,
> Prototype is ugly," however, the noise on the Web is still more along
> those lines, so it''s a PR issue and despite how it
"should" be, some
> people will choose what they perceive to be the latest greatest thing.
> Maybe that''s not who you want using Prototype (maybe
that''s not who
> you want using Rails :).
>
> The one thing that is pointed out relatively frequently is the
> difference in the documentation. If the Prototype/Scripty
> documentation could be unified and searchable, it would go a long way
> toward changing that argument.
>
> Anyhow, that''s my grand experiment thus far.
>
> Hope this is useful and not just off-topic.
>
> On Jan 15, 2008, at 12:24 AM, simon wrote:
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Matt Foster wrote:
> Hey There,
>
>         You''re certainly on to something there, the amount of
plugins
> and community support for jQuery dwarfs our efforts with prototype.
> That isn''t to say it doesn''t exist, just unfortunately
not as strong,
> at the moment. I found this proof in the number of components
> contributed to ajaxrain where jquery has some 4X more than
> prototype.   I also agree completely with unified documentation,  I
> had created a Google CSE for all things prototype a while back which
> can certainly help you refine your search,
> http://positionabsolute.net/blog/2007/11/prototype-custom-search-engine.php
>
>         I believe prototype to be the stronger framework, as noted yes
> jQuery has some swift baked-in functionality that lets designers
> easily add JS behaviors and smooth effects but when it comes down to
> application development, my eggs are in prototype''s basket.  The
only
> way to change this situation is for us, the developers, to step up and
> contribute more to the community.
>
> Regards,
>            Matt
>   
One thing I''ve been working on is a patch to make Prototype more 
extensible and provide some documentation on extending Prototype 
Classes.  For example, I''m adding addMethods() methods to Class and 
Event.  I''m thinking this would allow Prototype to be more flexible in 
accepting plugins.  What do you think?

- Ken Snyder

var Class = {
  _cache: [],
 
  create: function() {...},
 
  addMethods: function(methods) {
    // classes declared in the future
    Object.extend(Class.Methods, methods);
    // previously declared classes
    Class._cache.each(function(klass) {
      Object.extend(klass, methods);
    });
  }
};

Object.extend(Event, (function() {
...  
    addMethods: function(methods) {
      Object.extend(Event.Methods, methods);
      Object.extend(Event, methods);
    }
  };
})());

// examples
Class.addMethods({
  // remind you of Prototype 1.3?
  extend: function(methods) {
    Object.extend(this, methods);
  },
  debug: function(property) {
    console.log(this[property]);
  }
});
// now every new object created from a Class.create() class will have 
these two methods.  It is similar to the original Prototype idea of 
Object.prototype.extend

Event.addMethods({
  within: function(event, element) {
    // deprecated but just for illustration
    return Position.within(element, Event.pointerX(event), 
Event.pointerY(event));
  }
});
// now every extended event will have an additional method
''within''


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Googling for "prototype extensions" brings Scripteka as a second
result (right after Scripty''s wiki)
I''m just really surprised how people could have "never heard"
about
it...

P.S. I''ll ask someone from the core if we could post about it on
proto''s blog.

best,
kangax
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I''ve been following prototype development for almost 3 years...
scripteka is new to me as of this week.  I have no idea how long it''s
been around.

On 1/15/08, kangax <kangax-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>
wrote:
>
> Googling for "prototype extensions" brings Scripteka as a second
> result (right after Scripty''s wiki)
> I''m just really surprised how people could have "never
heard" about
> it...
>
> P.S. I''ll ask someone from the core if we could post about it on
> proto''s blog.
>
> best,
> kangax
> >
>
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Steve,

You''ve hit upon something that we''re aware of on the Core
team. I
think jQuery is a fantastic framework, but that its success has as
much to do with its evangelism (and the resulting ecosystem) as with
the quality of the code itself.

We have ideas on how to foster this same type of community, but like
most contributors to open-source software, we have day jobs, so
there''s never enough time to do as much as we''d like.
Enthusiastic
users like kangax help fill that void. Scripteka is still young; I
know we have plans to highlight it on the Prototype blog.

Beyond the extension library, I know we''d like to do more to advance
the *idea* of Prototype. We''ve talked about some sort of "pimp my
code" thing, where we take good JavaScript and make it better, as a
way to expose people to artful Prototype code idioms. (jQuery is
really good at letting their code speak for them.) Soon there will be
two books on the stands about Prototype 1.6. And several of us have
plans (or are proposing) to speak at upcoming conferences like SXSW,
RailsConf, and The Ajax Experience.

If anyone on this list has the enthusiasm to help out, or even some
ideas on how we can get started in this area, then let''s start talking
about this on the prototype-core list.

Cheers,
Andrew
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I am a web developer based out of New Zealand and I use prototype on a daily
basis. I think i''ve been using it since late 1.4 so i''ve been
around a
little while...
I haven''t made contact with anyone else in NZ who is using prototype -
I
know there''s at least one.. an online dating site: chatdate.co.nz uses
it (I
checked the source when they launched as a mate was the marketing manager
for a while)

I''ve developed a number of controls...

* design pattern for ''fake'' selects which should really be
class-ified
* a numeric input filtering control (uses keypress to restrict input for
numeric, currency and decimal types)
* a split input control (like bank account numbers, jumping from box to box)
which builds on above.
* a time-picker control (which is based on the fake select code)

...which should really be released to scripteka and the community as a whole
but I find that due to said day job, I never have the time to polish them up
to a level where i''d feel comfortable releasing them to the community.
If anyone is interested in working with me regarding the above controls to
get them released, let me know.

I''ve also got a blog up: http://agrath.blogspot.com with a few code
snippets
and bits and pieces, but I can''t say there''s much going on
there.
I really should migrate that to a better blogging engine that actually
supports code blocks with syntax highlighting (and tabs) so that you can
actually read my posts.

I like prototype because it''s non obtrusive, it''s a framework
rather than a
library.
I use the building blocks it provides to create functionality, and I
confess, I haven''t tried any of the other libraries but from the code
examples I see on Ajaxian, I just dont like them.

I have noticed that on the spinoffs group, a lot of questions are quite
similar. I wonder if there''s a need for some beginner tutorials.
The docs are great, but as they''re an API guide, you sorta have to know
what
you''re looking for.

Anyway, I guess this is my way of saying that I have the enthusiasm to help
but think I lack the time. I don''t know how you core guys do it.
If there''s something specific I can do.. let me know :)



Gareth

On Jan 16, 2008 1:03 PM, Andrew Dupont
<google-TiabPMV39B5K4mp1Ns0Z8Q@public.gmane.org> wrote:
>
> Steve,
>
> You''ve hit upon something that we''re aware of on the Core
team. I
> think jQuery is a fantastic framework, but that its success has as
> much to do with its evangelism (and the resulting ecosystem) as with
> the quality of the code itself.
>
> We have ideas on how to foster this same type of community, but like
> most contributors to open-source software, we have day jobs, so
> there''s never enough time to do as much as we''d like.
Enthusiastic
> users like kangax help fill that void. Scripteka is still young; I
> know we have plans to highlight it on the Prototype blog.
>
> Beyond the extension library, I know we''d like to do more to
advance
> the *idea* of Prototype. We''ve talked about some sort of
"pimp my
> code" thing, where we take good JavaScript and make it better, as a
> way to expose people to artful Prototype code idioms. (jQuery is
> really good at letting their code speak for them.) Soon there will be
> two books on the stands about Prototype 1.6. And several of us have
> plans (or are proposing) to speak at upcoming conferences like SXSW,
> RailsConf, and The Ajax Experience.
>
> If anyone on this list has the enthusiasm to help out, or even some
> ideas on how we can get started in this area, then let''s start
talking
> about this on the prototype-core list.
>
> Cheers,
> Andrew
> >
>
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On Jan 15, 2008, at 5:03 PM, Andrew Dupont wrote:
> Steve,
>
> You''ve hit upon something that we''re aware of on the Core
team. I
> think jQuery is a fantastic framework, but that its success has as
> much to do with its evangelism (and the resulting ecosystem) as with
> the quality of the code itself.
>
> We have ideas on how to foster this same type of community, but like
> most contributors to open-source software, we have day jobs, so
> there''s never enough time to do as much as we''d like.
Enthusiastic
> users like kangax help fill that void. Scripteka is still young; I
> know we have plans to highlight it on the Prototype blog.
>
> Beyond the extension library, I know we''d like to do more to
advance
> the *idea* of Prototype. We''ve talked about some sort of
"pimp my
> code" thing, where we take good JavaScript and make it better, as a
> way to expose people to artful Prototype code idioms. (jQuery is
> really good at letting their code speak for them.) Soon there will be
> two books on the stands about Prototype 1.6. And several of us have
> plans (or are proposing) to speak at upcoming conferences like SXSW,
> RailsConf, and The Ajax Experience.
>
> If anyone on this list has the enthusiasm to help out, or even some
> ideas on how we can get started in this area, then let''s start
talking
> about this on the prototype-core list.
>
> Cheers,
> Andrew
I have some bandwidth to help out but am not certain occupying space  
on the general list is a great use of everyones'' time. So,
I''ve done
this: I created a new GoogleGroup called ror-spinoff-ecosystem
(http://groups.google.com/group/ror-spinoff-ecosystem?hl=en
). Let me explain why I think this topic is of general interest/use.

In my original post, I used jQuery as an example. I think they are a  
good example of how a particular implementation catches fire. But this  
isn''t an us versus them type of thing. It''s more about the
untold
story. I have the bungee book (wonderful work!) and it goes some way  
toward getting people oriented in the frameworks. However, I don''t see
a couple of things that I believe were present in Rails from the start  
and appear to be present in jQuery:

- A clear "right way" to do something. Rails is opinionated software.
How many times have you heard that. Well Prototype isn''t. Sometimes  
the developer is left at sea with respect to the "Prototype" approach
to a given problem set. jQuery is much more specific about how they  
expect their framework to be used. Start with the DOM and everything  
else will fall into place.

- An easily articulated extensibility story. Rails has had this since  
day two. Once they put components behind them and moved to plugins,  
Rails has had a ton of easy to install add-in functionality springing  
up all around. jQuery, too, has a well-articulated plugin framework.

- Stability story. This is a strength of Prototype and Scripty that  
just doesn''t get mentioned. This ain''t new code --
it''s battle tested
on some of the most heavily visited sites around.

- Testing baked right in ... sort of. This is a strength of Rails and  
with the test plugin, it is a strength of Prototype. There is,  
however, little guidance regarding how to do this. Less for the non- 
Rails developer. TDD and BDD are hot topics and I know it''s something  
the Core team considers. If this can be pushed out to the community it  
will be (IMO) a strength.

Anyhow, join the group, share your ideas, and post announcements for  
extensions/plugins/enhancements.

Steve

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Steve, you make some good suggestions here. I appreciate the
initiative in creating a new list, but the Prototype Core list (http://
groups.google.com/group/prototype-core) is probably a better place to
discuss the library itself. It''s of a slower pace (one that can
accommodate discussions like these) and is a better solution than
asking people to subscribe to a new list, in my opinion.

Cheers,
Andrew

On Jan 15, 9:05 pm, "s.ross"
<cwdi...-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>
wrote:
> On Jan 15, 2008, at 5:03 PM, Andrew Dupont wrote:
>
>
>
> > Steve,
>
> > You''ve hit upon something that we''re aware of on the
Core team. I
> > think jQuery is a fantastic framework, but that its success has as
> > much to do with its evangelism (and the resulting ecosystem) as with
> > the quality of the code itself.
>
> > We have ideas on how to foster this same type of community, but like
> > most contributors to open-source software, we have day jobs, so
> > there''s never enough time to do as much as we''d
like. Enthusiastic
> > users like kangax help fill that void. Scripteka is still young; I
> > know we have plans to highlight it on the Prototype blog.
>
> > Beyond the extension library, I know we''d like to do more to
advance
> > the *idea* of Prototype. We''ve talked about some sort of
"pimp my
> > code" thing, where we take good JavaScript and make it better, as
a
> > way to expose people to artful Prototype code idioms. (jQuery is
> > really good at letting their code speak for them.) Soon there will be
> > two books on the stands about Prototype 1.6. And several of us have
> > plans (or are proposing) to speak at upcoming conferences like SXSW,
> > RailsConf, and The Ajax Experience.
>
> > If anyone on this list has the enthusiasm to help out, or even some
> > ideas on how we can get started in this area, then let''s
start talking
> > about this on the prototype-core list.
>
> > Cheers,
> > Andrew
>
> I have some bandwidth to help out but am not certain occupying space  
> on the general list is a great use of everyones'' time. So,
I''ve done  
> this: I created a new GoogleGroup called ror-spinoff-ecosystem
(http://groups.google.com/group/ror-spinoff-ecosystem?hl=en
> ). Let me explain why I think this topic is of general interest/use.
>
> In my original post, I used jQuery as an example. I think they are a  
> good example of how a particular implementation catches fire. But this  
> isn''t an us versus them type of thing. It''s more about
the untold  
> story. I have the bungee book (wonderful work!) and it goes some way  
> toward getting people oriented in the frameworks. However, I don''t
see  
> a couple of things that I believe were present in Rails from the start  
> and appear to be present in jQuery:
>
> - A clear "right way" to do something. Rails is opinionated
software.  
> How many times have you heard that. Well Prototype isn''t.
Sometimes  
> the developer is left at sea with respect to the "Prototype"
approach  
> to a given problem set. jQuery is much more specific about how they  
> expect their framework to be used. Start with the DOM and everything  
> else will fall into place.
>
> - An easily articulated extensibility story. Rails has had this since  
> day two. Once they put components behind them and moved to plugins,  
> Rails has had a ton of easy to install add-in functionality springing  
> up all around. jQuery, too, has a well-articulated plugin framework.
>
> - Stability story. This is a strength of Prototype and Scripty that  
> just doesn''t get mentioned. This ain''t new code --
it''s battle tested  
> on some of the most heavily visited sites around.
>
> - Testing baked right in ... sort of. This is a strength of Rails and  
> with the test plugin, it is a strength of Prototype. There is,  
> however, little guidance regarding how to do this. Less for the non-
> Rails developer. TDD and BDD are hot topics and I know it''s
something  
> the Core team considers. If this can be pushed out to the community it  
> will be (IMO) a strength.
>
> Anyhow, join the group, share your ideas, and post announcements for  
> extensions/plugins/enhancements.
>
> Steve
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