Dear all, I am quite new at R and have a question about using lme with crossed random factors. I followed the instructions of Pinheiro & Bates, but that did not work because of the non grouping of my data. Reading prior threads ( http://www.mail-archive.com/r-help@stat.math.ethz.ch/msg10849.html), I found a solution to deal with non grouped data and crossed random factors in lme, by defining a grouping with one level and using it in the random part of the lme formula in the following way: one <-rep(1,length(y)) random=list(a=~1,one=~b) but with the comment, that I get "DF calculations, none of which are correct in the completely balanced case". Does that mean, that calculations in my summary table (e. g. F- and p-values) might be wrong? Has there arised another solution for crossed random factors in lme with non grouped data in the meantime? What will change in the model if I would use the formula vice versa or for both random factors: random=list(one=~a,b=~1) random=list(one=~a,one=~b) To which random factor do I have to add "one", dealing with three random factors? Is it possible to use crossed and nested random factors together in one formula? e.g.: random=list(a/c=~1, one=~b) I can't use lmer because I also have to deal with heterogeneity using the varIdent function (what works brilliant). I hope that I did not miss a solution to my problem in another thread or that my questions are too naive! Thanks in advance for your help and comments! Regards Björn Klatt [[alternative HTML version deleted]]