I have the following dataset: 96 plots 12 varieties 2 time points The experiment is arranged as follows: A single plot has two varieties tested on it. With respect to time points, plots come in 3 kinds: (1) varietyA, timepoint#1 vs. variety B, timepoint#1 (2) varietyA timepoint #2 vs. varietyB timepoint #2 (3) varietyA timepoint #1 vs. variety A timepoint#2 - there are 36 of each kind of within timepoint comparison and 24 between timepoint comparisons. so it isn't a fully connected design. Plots and varieties are random samples from a population of plots and varieties, so they are random effects. The timepoints are fixed effects. I am particularly interested in the variance components for variety and timepoint within variety, in the estimate for the fixed timepoint effect and in the predictions (BLUP) for variety and timepoint within variety. So the mixed model looks like: Measurement ~ Timepoint + Plot + Variety + Variety/Timepoint Here is the question: I am not interested in Plot, so it would be great if I could avoid estimating it. Since I take two measurements from each plot, I could remove plot by taking the difference between the measurements and feeding that into the appropriate model. If I had only one Timepoint, this seems like it would be straightforward since in that case the variance of the difference would just be twice the variance of Variety, and from the blups of the differences I could reconstruct the blups of the individual varieties (or would that not be statistically sound?) However, my differences come in different kinds because of the Timepoints, so it's a bit more complicated. Does anyone have any suggestions for whether it is possible to extract the Variety and Variety/Timepont variances and blups and the Timepoint estimates if my measurements are differences rather than individual measurements? If so, how would I go about setting the appropriate model using lme? Thanks much for any help, Scott Rifkin scott.rifkin at yale.edu