Hello! When I simulate variance at only a single level in a nested analysis using lme (all levels are random effects), the results confuse me. Instead of lme reporting high variance in only that simulated level, substantial variance (>10% of simulated level) often appears in other levels -- in some configurations, as often as 50% of the time. Usually this spurious variance shows up in levels of nesting above the level with high simulated variance. Am I doing something wrong or should I expect such 'over-detection'? I was expecting near zero variance in those other levels except say, 5% of the time. Here's some example code with variance simulated in level 2 and spurious variance appearing frequently in level 1: library(nlme) # 4 level nesting simVar <- c(0,1,0,.1) # first is level one, last becomes error nAtLevel <- c(5,5,5,5) # number of replicates at each level F1V <- F2V <- F3V <- residV <- numeric(0) for (rep in 1:100){ F1f <- F2f <- F3f <- value <- numeric(0) mn <- numeric(length(nAtLevel)) # data generator for (F1 in 1:nAtLevel[1]) { mn[1] <- rnorm(1,sd=simVar[1]) # set mean for level 1 for (F2 in 1:nAtLevel[2]) { mn[2] <- rnorm(1,sd=simVar[2]) # set mean for level 2 for (F3 in 1:nAtLevel[3]) { mn[3] <- rnorm(1,sd=simVar[3]) # set mean for level 3 for (F4 in 1:nAtLevel[4]) { mn[4] <- rnorm(1,sd=simVar[4]) #set mean for lowest level value <- c(value, sum(mn)) F1f <- c(F1f,F1) F2f <- c(F2f,F2) F3f <- c(F3f,F3) } } } } y.lme <- lme(value ~ 1,random = ~ 1 | as.factor(F1f)/ as.factor(F2f)/ as.factor(F3f)) v <- as.numeric(VarCorr(y.lme)[,2]) v <- as.numeric(na.omit(v)) F1V <- c(F1V,v[1]) F2V <- c(F2V,v[2]) F3V <- c(F3V,v[3]) residV <- c(residV,y.lme$sigma) } var.df <- data.frame(F1V,F2V,F3V,residV) par(mfrow=c(2,2)) hist(var.df$F1V,main='Level 1 StdDev') hist(var.df$F2V,main='Level 2 StdDev') hist(var.df$F3V,main='Level 3 StdDev') hist(var.df$residV,main='Residual StdDev') txt <- 'Simulated stddev:' for (i in 1:length(simVar)) { txt <- paste(txt,' level ',i,'=',simVar[i],',',sep='')} mtext(txt, outer=T,line=-1,side=3) Summary plots for several sample sizes is at: http://david.science.oregonstate.edu/~allisong/R/sampSize.pdf Thanks for any suggestions! Gary -- Gary Allison Department of Evolution, Ecology and Organismal Biology Ohio State University