On Fri, Dec 17, 2004 at 10:00:19PM -0300, Mr Dihelson Mendonca wrote:> The problem with Icecast OGG system is that common > people doesn't want to download any other software in > order to listen to a radio station, even a plugin...Of course. But that's not the whole story. Microsoft only supports MP3 because so many people listen to mp3 radio stations and files. And before Window Media Player played MP3, everyone had winamp installed because the nearest teenager (if I may) had installed it as a way to listen to cool--or at least free--music. So, the more content is available in ogg, and the more good and popular content that is available *only* in ogg, the more people will install the players, and the more vendors will ship support so their customers won't have to.> The problem is making Windows media Player to play it! > And this may not have any solution.There are plugins at http://www.illiminable.com/ogg/ you might give those a try. Hopefully once they're stablized we can finally get on the autodownload program and all this will go away. Although people tell me it doesn't actually work. -r
Ralph Giles wrote:> Of course. But that's not the whole story. Microsoft only > supports MP3 because so many people listen to mp3 radio > stations and files. And before Window Media Player played > MP3, everyone had winamp installed because the nearest > teenager (if I may) had installed it as a way to listen to > cool--or at least free--music.Very true. And WMP had support for MP3 files before it properly supported MP3 streaming. Same with RealPLayer. They added it because there was overwhelming user demand for it. BTW: You can use the access log to determine whether or not your hypothesis is actually correct. It stores the useragent header, if memory serves. You may well find that people are selecting MP3 because it's what they know - most people have heard of it, even if they've no idea what it is. It's best to know your problem before you try to solve it. Geoff. -- Geoff Shang <geoff@hitsandpieces.net> Phone: +61-418-96-5590 MSN: geoff@acbradio.org Make sure your E-mail can be read by everyone! http://www.betips.net/etc/evilmail.html Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments. See http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
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I have a player on my site that does both mp3 and Ogg. I'll see if
I
can find the link for it.<br>
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://live.wm7o.com/">http://live.wm7o.com/</a><br>
<br>
Kent<br>
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Ralph Giles wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid20041218011135.GD32378@ghostscript.com"
type="cite">
<pre wrap="">On Fri, Dec 17, 2004 at 10:00:19PM -0300, Mr
Dihelson Mendonca wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">The problem with Icecast OGG system is that
common
people doesn't want to download any other software in
order to listen to a radio station, even a plugin...
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><!---->
Of course. But that's not the whole story. Microsoft only
supports MP3 because so many people listen to mp3 radio
stations and files. And before Window Media Player played
MP3, everyone had winamp installed because the nearest
teenager (if I may) had installed it as a way to listen to
cool--or at least free--music.
So, the more content is available in ogg, and the more
good and popular content that is available *only* in ogg,
the more people will install the players, and the more
vendors will ship support so their customers won't have
to.
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">The problem is making Windows media Player to
play it!
And this may not have any solution.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><!---->
There are plugins at <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://www.illiminable.com/ogg/">http://www.illiminable.com/ogg/</a>
you might give those a try.
Hopefully once they're stablized we can finally get
on the autodownload program and all this will go away.
Although people tell me it doesn't actually work.
-r
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<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://lists.xiph.org/mailman/listinfo/icecast">http://lists.xiph.org/mailman/listinfo/icecast</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
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</html>
If propagation of Ogg Vorbis is the (or a) goal of Icecast then probably the best strategy is to build an embedded Ogg Flash Player of some sort, so that people unwittingly become Ogg users without lifting a finger, and broadcasters can start using it without fear that they'll lose listeners due to their protocol choice. I've been streaming for more than 7 years now with Quicktime, Shoutcast, and most recently Icecast and it's been interesting to see how the technologies in the space have vied for dominance, ultimately ceding to MP3. In 2000, Shoutcasting was difficult because nobody had MP3 players installed and it was a pain to download. Microsoft changed this by including Windows Media Player and suddenly there was an embedded base of MP3 listeners out there looking for something to tune into. Cue the demise of proprietary streaming protocols like RealPlayer (which previously was the norm) and Quicktime streaming (which still required users to get Quicktime, though it was pretty easy). These two had previously been prominent because RealAudio had been prolific in embedding their player with browser downloads and OS installs, and because Apple/Quicktime had come up with millions of different reasons why you needed to install their plugin and so a large base had been grown over half a decade. MP3 streaming broke out and away from the pack because A) it was free, B) MP3 as a standard was getting huge attention thanks to file sharing, and C) it was well supported by NullSoft from encoder to server to player. Sure there are lots of Ogg players out there for you and me to install, but without some kind of stealth strategy Ogg is stuck with a chicken-and-egg problem. Can't get the streamers if there are no listeners, can't get the listeners if there are no streamers. The difference between now and 2000, when MP3 broke thru this wall, is that there are a lot more choices out there and streaming over IP is no longer quite as new and cool. Being cooler, being technically better, is not enough. Being free and open-source in itself doesn't cut it in the mass market. MP3, these days, is "free enough" and easily available for use by the unwashed masses. So... what would make me as a professional broadcaster seriously consider Ogg? Two things: ONE: We use an embedded player at Pulverradio.com that's done in Flash. For our part we just modified an off-the-shelf player for our station and the result is we receive very little email from folks having trouble connecting. So ostensibly we could choose any protocol we liked, so long as there was a Flash Library to support it, since the listeners don't NEED to know the difference. TWO: I need to encode Ogg professionally. We use hardware encoders from TELOS. I picked these because it was the most rock-solid solution that had AES inputs, and our production studios are all-digital. (http://www.audioactive.com/products/webcasting.html) These use licensed Fraunhofer encoders and also have some nice de-essing and grunge reduction features that I am a fan of. Convince guys like this to use Ogg, or develop a similar device which does both Ogg and MP3, and you've got a winner. Like any effective salesman, when facing chicken-and-egg problems dead on (which I've had to do a number of times in my career) it's important to grease the skids so that there are no reasons for the listener, the producer, or the broadcaster to say No. In the case of Ogg Vorbis it's simply not good enough to push the tools out there and wait for people to use them. In any case I share your pain because I'm frustrated with MP3 streaming and would like to see Ogg Vorbis more widely used. -Ian. On 18-Dec-04, at 4:24 AM, Geoff Shang wrote:> Ralph Giles wrote: > >> Of course. But that's not the whole story. Microsoft only >> supports MP3 because so many people listen to mp3 radio >> stations and files. And before Window Media Player played >> MP3, everyone had winamp installed because the nearest >> teenager (if I may) had installed it as a way to listen to >> cool--or at least free--music. > > Very true. And WMP had support for MP3 files before it properly > supported MP3 streaming. Same with RealPLayer. They added it because > there was overwhelming user demand for it.