Hi All, I run a little hosting company. I use Dovecot 1.0.10* with IMAP exclusively. Lots of my customers use Outlook or Outlook Express. This poses a problem. These programs don't and have absolutely no workarounds to move messages to a trash folder when deleted. They only mark the message for deletion. Then, users have to purge the message to actually delete it. Outlook has a way to hide deleted messages and also auto-purge them when moving to a different folder. That just doesn't cut it. (Thanks Microsoft! :-p ) So, I'm thinking Dovecot could pick up where Microsoft left off. It seems to me there needs to be two things done. First, a system that automatically copy a message marked for deletion from one folder (e.g. INBOX) to a trash folder (e.g. Trash, Deleted Messages, etc.) Dovecot's lazy_expunge might already do this, but I couldn't quite discern it from the wiki docs. Second, a way to only do this when Outlook or Outlook Express is the one who is deleting a message. Possibility? Comments? Cheers, Jason P.S. Thanks for the great software! *Yes, I know. I need to upgrade to Dovecot 1.0.13. -- Jason Wohlford <jason at wohlford.org> <http://wohlford.org>
Jason Wohlford wrote:> Hi All, > > I run a little hosting company. I use Dovecot 1.0.10* with IMAP > exclusively. Lots of my customers use Outlook or Outlook Express. This > poses a problem. These programs don't and have absolutely no > workarounds to move messages to a trash folder when deleted. They only > mark the message for deletion. Then, users have to purge the message > to actually delete it. Outlook has a way to hide deleted messages and > also auto-purge them when moving to a different folder. That just > doesn't cut it. (Thanks Microsoft! :-p ) > > So, I'm thinking Dovecot could pick up where Microsoft left off. > > It seems to me there needs to be two things done. First, a system that > automatically copy a message marked for deletion from one folder (e.g. > INBOX) to a trash folder (e.g. Trash, Deleted Messages, etc.) > Dovecot's lazy_expunge might already do this, but I couldn't quite > discern it from the wiki docs. Second, a way to only do this when > Outlook or Outlook Express is the one who is deleting a message. > > Possibility? Comments? >Yes...outlook is one of the worst imap client I have seen..:) The problem is that the user's Trash folder was not at the root level of the email account. Outlook did not know how to deal with that. Move/create users trash folder to the root level. Look for trash (deleted items) folder with the correct icon appeared. Correct icon indicates that Outlook now recognizes trash as trash folder.> Cheers, > Jason > > P.S. Thanks for the great software! > > *Yes, I know. I need to upgrade to Dovecot 1.0.13. >Uldis
Jason Wohlford schrieb:> Hi All, > > I run a little hosting company. I use Dovecot 1.0.10* with IMAP > exclusively. Lots of my customers use Outlook or Outlook Express. This > poses a problem. These programs don't and have absolutely no workarounds > to move messages to a trash folder when deleted. They only mark the > message for deletion. Then, users have to purge the message to actually > delete it. Outlook has a way to hide deleted messages and also > auto-purge them when moving to a different folder. That just doesn't cut > it. (Thanks Microsoft! :-p ) > > So, I'm thinking Dovecot could pick up where Microsoft left off. > > It seems to me there needs to be two things done. First, a system that > automatically copy a message marked for deletion from one folder (e.g. > INBOX) to a trash folder (e.g. Trash, Deleted Messages, etc.) Dovecot's > lazy_expunge might already do this, but I couldn't quite discern it from > the wiki docs. Second, a way to only do this when Outlook or Outlook > Express is the one who is deleting a message. > > Possibility? Comments? > > Cheers, > Jason > > P.S. Thanks for the great software! > > *Yes, I know. I need to upgrade to Dovecot 1.0.13. >Hi Jason, forget about workarounds for outlook express its a broken client for several reasons, just advice not not use it. Outlook isnt Outlook , div versions with div patchlevel working in different ways and have different ways ( or no ways ) to solve your Problem here ist good advice for imap purge http://www.landaenterprises.com/support/email_imap_delete.asp note purge in this case ist a function of the client which the user may handle as he likes if you want outlook move sent mails to a imap sent folder use a filter rule look here for advice http://kb.nitix.com/1630 at last tell your users that outlook isnt a universal mail client specially with imap and smtp Outlook is the client of m$ case in first case and fits to exchanges needs, and only with exchange it offers its workgroup funktions which are from interest in companies m$ has no interest to make it better work with imap cause , they would loose money if the do so, cause as time goes by , specially smaller companies may find no need to buy expensive windows and exchange servers outlook licences anymore advice users to use thunderbird/lightning as better choice after all i dont think dovecot should try to deal with outlook troubles ( which are mutatating from version to version ) , as long as there is other important stuff to do (acl etc),but for sure this not my decision, its mainly the work of microsoft to support user questions about their expensive sold products not yours in my opinion Same goes to apple mail which does serveral funny stuff with imap All these products are formed to make money with the special services m$ and apple provides, they arent meant to be highly compatible to wide spreaded imap,smtp opensoftware servers which mostly very clean coded i know telling this truths are badly told to costumers and users in real life , but perhaps you may do the best you can to provide such info -- Best Regards MfG Robert Schetterer Germany/Munich/Bavaria
On 4/15/2008, Robert Schetterer (robert at schetterer.org) wrote:> Hi Jason, forget about workarounds for outlook express > its a broken client for several reasons, just advice not not use it. > > Outlook isnt Outlook , div versions with div patchlevel > working in different ways and have different ways > ( or no ways ) to solve your Problem > here ist good advice for imap purge > http://www.landaenterprises.com/support/email_imap_delete.asp > note purge in this case ist a function > of the client which the user may handle as he likes > > if you want outlook move sent mails to a imap sent folder > use a filter ruleWell... as much as I hate Outlook, apparently 2007 version has much improved IMAP support - as well as TLS and STARTTLS support (finally): http://pschmid.net/blog/2006/11/23/81 From the link: Outlook 2007 comes with improved IMAP support. As you might wonder what is new, here is the full list of improvements: 1. Outlook is now IMAP4 Revision 1 compatible (RFC 3501) 2. In previous versions, Outlook would pop up a dialog while synchronizing with an IMAP server. In 2007, Outlook uses a new chunking synchronizing strategy that allows users to work with IMAP items as they are being downloaded. 3. 2007 has better purging support. In 2003, you were only able to purge the current IMAP folder, now you can using Edit, Purge: * Purge current folder * Purge all folders for one IMAP account * Purge all folder in all IMAP accounts * Use the new Purge on Switch feature that purges items automatically when switching folders. This feature is disabled by default. You need to switch it on for each IMAP account separately via Edit, Purge, Purge Options, ?Purge items when switching folders while online?. You can access the same dialog via Tools, Account Settings, Change for your IMAP account, More Settings. 4. You can now store your Sent Items in an IMAP folder. In previous versions, Outlook stored all sent items in a local PST and not on the IMAP server. When you send an email for an IMAP account the first time, Outlook will ask you whether to store the item in a folder on the server or not. You can access the setting at any point in time via Tools, Account Settings, Change for your IMAP account, More Settings, Folders. Please note that this setting will only be available after Outlook has synchronized with your IMAP account once (it needs to download the folder list first from the IMAP account) 5. IMAP accounts now use the Unicode PST format (introduced first in Outlook 2003) by default. In previous versions, IMAP accounts were limited to ANSI PSTs, which meant e.g. that your IMAP account could never be bigger than 2 GB. With providers already offering 2 GB IMAP accounts currently, e.g. as 1&1 does, it won?t be before long that larger than 2 GB IMAP accounts will be available widely. You should know though, that Outlook has no mechanism to convert an ANSI to a Unicode PST. The only way to ?convert? your current IMAP ANSI PST to Unicode is to delete the file and let Outlook recreate it as Unicode PST. When you upgrade from an earlier version of Outlook, 2007 asks you whether it should do just that. 6. IMAP logging has also been improved in 2007. Outlook log files are created in ?%temp%\outlook logging? and are named according to the account, activity (incoming/outgoing), as well as date and time of the first log entry. Outlook creates one log for each account per session. You can switch on logging via Tools, Options, Other, Advanced Options, ?Enable logging (troubleshooting)?. 7. Outlook accounts now have a ?Test Account Settings? button. You can find the button on the page where you enter the basic account information. 8. Security for IMAP accounts has been improved as well: * TLS encryption is now supported in addition to SSL (as required by IMAP4 Rev. 1). * The PLAIN authentication mechanism is now also supported. Meaning the PLAIN SASL mechanism (i.e. AUTH=PLAIN) as defined in RFC 2595 (again required by IMAP4 Rev. 1). * Support for STARTTLS was added (defined in RFC 2595). This allows starting SSL for an established IMAP4 session (another IMAP4 Rev. 1 requirement) * As for all other Internet E-mail accounts, the private ID field on SMTP outgoing messages as added. This is in reference to the new Postmark feature in 2007. More information about this feature is available on Office Online. 9. IMAP accounts (with the local PST in the Unicode format) now allow Search Folders similar to Search Folders that were already possible on regular PSTs in Outlook 2003. 10. In Outlook 2003, IMAP items could be assigned multiple different flags similar to any other email item in Outlook. This has been changed in 2007to only allow IMAP items to have a flag or no flag (flag can only be on or off). The change was made, as IMAP accounts only support such a limited flagging behavior and the different flags assigned to items in Outlook 2003 were not reflected on the IMAP server. In addition, IMAP items in Outlook 2007 cannot be assigned the new color categories, as those are not supported by the IMAP protocol either. 11. It is now easier to cache your IMAP items locally and even keep a full local copy of your IMAP account in the IMAP PST. In 2003, you had to select each folder individually that you wanted to be kept cached locally in the Send/Receive Settings dialog. In 2007, you can now choose to download all headers for all subscribed IMAP folders (meaning the ones shown to you in the folder list in Outlook) or all complete items including attachments for all subscribed folders. In addition, you can still define a custom behavior. The setting is available via Tools, Send/Receive, Send/Receive Settings, Define Send/Receive Groups, Edit for the send/receive group. Then select your IMAP account and choose the desired setting under ?Receive mail items?. -- Best regards, Charles
Charles Marcus schrieb:> On 4/15/2008, Robert Schetterer (robert at schetterer.org) wrote: >> Hi Jason, forget about workarounds for outlook express >> its a broken client for several reasons, just advice not not use it. >> >> Outlook isnt Outlook , div versions with div patchlevel >> working in different ways and have different ways >> ( or no ways ) to solve your Problem >> here ist good advice for imap purge >> http://www.landaenterprises.com/support/email_imap_delete.asp >> note purge in this case ist a function >> of the client which the user may handle as he likes >> >> if you want outlook move sent mails to a imap sent folder >> use a filter rule > > Well... as much as I hate Outlook, apparently 2007 version has much > improved IMAP support - as well as TLS and STARTTLS support (finally): > > http://pschmid.net/blog/2006/11/23/81 > > From the link: > > > Outlook 2007 comes with improved IMAP support. As you might wonder what > is new, here is the full list of improvements: > > 1. Outlook is now IMAP4 Revision 1 compatible (RFC 3501) > 2. In previous versions, Outlook would pop up a dialog while > synchronizing with an IMAP server. In 2007, Outlook uses a new chunking > synchronizing strategy that allows users to work with IMAP items as they > are being downloaded. > 3. 2007 has better purging support. In 2003, you were only able to > purge the current IMAP folder, now you can using Edit, Purge: > * Purge current folder > * Purge all folders for one IMAP account > * Purge all folder in all IMAP accounts > * Use the new Purge on Switch feature that purges items > automatically when switching folders. This feature is disabled by > default. You need to switch it on for each IMAP account separately via > Edit, Purge, Purge Options, ?Purge items when switching folders while > online?. You can access the same dialog via Tools, Account Settings, > Change for your IMAP account, More Settings. > 4. You can now store your Sent Items in an IMAP folder. In previous > versions, Outlook stored all sent items in a local PST and not on the > IMAP server. When you send an email for an IMAP account the first time, > Outlook will ask you whether to store the item in a folder on the server > or not. You can access the setting at any point in time via Tools, > Account Settings, Change for your IMAP account, More Settings, Folders. > Please note that this setting will only be available after Outlook has > synchronized with your IMAP account once (it needs to download the > folder list first from the IMAP account) > 5. IMAP accounts now use the Unicode PST format (introduced first in > Outlook 2003) by default. In previous versions, IMAP accounts were > limited to ANSI PSTs, which meant e.g. that your IMAP account could > never be bigger than 2 GB. With providers already offering 2 GB IMAP > accounts currently, e.g. as 1&1 does, it won?t be before long that > larger than 2 GB IMAP accounts will be available widely. You should know > though, that Outlook has no mechanism to convert an ANSI to a Unicode > PST. The only way to ?convert? your current IMAP ANSI PST to Unicode is > to delete the file and let Outlook recreate it as Unicode PST. When you > upgrade from an earlier version of Outlook, 2007 asks you whether it > should do just that. > 6. IMAP logging has also been improved in 2007. Outlook log files are > created in ?%temp%\outlook logging? and are named according to the > account, activity (incoming/outgoing), as well as date and time of the > first log entry. Outlook creates one log for each account per session. > You can switch on logging via Tools, Options, Other, Advanced Options, > ?Enable logging (troubleshooting)?. > 7. Outlook accounts now have a ?Test Account Settings? button. You > can find the button on the page where you enter the basic account > information. > 8. Security for IMAP accounts has been improved as well: > * TLS encryption is now supported in addition to SSL (as > required by IMAP4 Rev. 1). > * The PLAIN authentication mechanism is now also supported. > Meaning the PLAIN SASL mechanism (i.e. AUTH=PLAIN) as defined in RFC > 2595 (again required by IMAP4 Rev. 1). > * Support for STARTTLS was added (defined in RFC 2595). This > allows starting SSL for an established IMAP4 session (another IMAP4 Rev. > 1 requirement) > * As for all other Internet E-mail accounts, the private ID > field on SMTP outgoing messages as added. This is in reference to the > new Postmark feature in 2007. More information about this feature is > available on Office Online. > 9. IMAP accounts (with the local PST in the Unicode format) now allow > Search Folders similar to Search Folders that were already possible on > regular PSTs in Outlook 2003. > 10. In Outlook 2003, IMAP items could be assigned multiple different > flags similar to any other email item in Outlook. This has been changed > in 2007to only allow IMAP items to have a flag or no flag (flag can only > be on or off). The change was made, as IMAP accounts only support such a > limited flagging behavior and the different flags assigned to items in > Outlook 2003 were not reflected on the IMAP server. In addition, IMAP > items in Outlook 2007 cannot be assigned the new color categories, as > those are not supported by the IMAP protocol either. > 11. It is now easier to cache your IMAP items locally and even keep a > full local copy of your IMAP account in the IMAP PST. In 2003, you had > to select each folder individually that you wanted to be kept cached > locally in the Send/Receive Settings dialog. In 2007, you can now choose > to download all headers for all subscribed IMAP folders (meaning the > ones shown to you in the folder list in Outlook) or all complete items > including attachments for all subscribed folders. In addition, you can > still define a custom behavior. The setting is available via Tools, > Send/Receive, Send/Receive Settings, Define Send/Receive Groups, Edit > for the send/receive group. Then select your IMAP account and choose the > desired setting under ?Receive mail items?. >Hi Jason, nice link thx for that,i never used outlook 2007, and i dont know anybody who does in present i dont hate outlook nor windows or m$, but i think microsoft should do the support as it is normal in other products too until they take big money for it, its not my job as isp mailadmin to do their job i read about serveral problems with outlook 2007, i didnt tested it myself, so i cant say if that bug reports are true and i dont remember if they are in imap, cause i am not willing to update anymore m$ office, neither i have windows anymore, and mostly all of my customers will not get to office 2007 until they really have to do i may test it if i will setup my next gen mailserver with dovecot 1.2 as i will test all other major spreaded mail clients in virtual os then. But what i wrote stays , outlook is in first the client of exchange, i wasnt desigend to be very compatibel to other ( o-source) imap/smtp servers Perhaps m$ will change now , pressed through the eu and loosing money about vista, for be more compatibel, but for now i simply anounce to my users and customers if you want outlook support ask m$ or pay 75 ? per hour to use when we should help you, that keeps away silly questions after all we have a faq website with pictures for setting up outlook and other mail clients. -- Best Regards MfG Robert Schetterer Germany/Munich/Bavaria
On Mon, 2008-04-14 at 22:12 -0500, Jason Wohlford wrote:> It seems to me there needs to be two things done. First, a system that > automatically copy a message marked for deletion from one folder (e.g. > INBOX) to a trash folder (e.g. Trash, Deleted Messages, etc.)Sounds upcoming virtual mailboxes will be useful for this. You could define a virtual Trash mailbox that contains messages in all mailboxes that are marked as \Deleted. Although if \Deleted messages are hidden that probably doesn't help that much since they'd be hidden in Trash as well.. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: <http://dovecot.org/pipermail/dovecot/attachments/20080417/2c1d7df5/attachment-0002.bin>
P.S. Sorry for the late (and many) replies. I've been sick and are now just getting back into the swing of things. Cheers, Jason On Apr 14, 2008, at 10:12 PM, Jason Wohlford wrote:> Hi All, > > I run a little hosting company. I use Dovecot 1.0.10* with IMAP > exclusively. Lots of my customers use Outlook or Outlook Express. > This poses a problem. These programs don't and have absolutely no > workarounds to move messages to a trash folder when deleted. They > only mark the message for deletion. Then, users have to purge the > message to actually delete it. Outlook has a way to hide deleted > messages and also auto-purge them when moving to a different folder. > That just doesn't cut it. (Thanks Microsoft! :-p ) > > So, I'm thinking Dovecot could pick up where Microsoft left off. > > It seems to me there needs to be two things done. First, a system > that automatically copy a message marked for deletion from one > folder (e.g. INBOX) to a trash folder (e.g. Trash, Deleted Messages, > etc.) Dovecot's lazy_expunge might already do this, but I couldn't > quite discern it from the wiki docs. Second, a way to only do this > when Outlook or Outlook Express is the one who is deleting a message. > > Possibility? Comments? > > Cheers, > Jason > > P.S. Thanks for the great software! > > *Yes, I know. I need to upgrade to Dovecot 1.0.13. > > -- > Jason Wohlford > <jason at wohlford.org> > <http://wohlford.org> > > >-- Jason Wohlford <jason at wohlford.org> <http://wohlford.org>