CentOS - Dec 2010 - OT: programming language for morons (newbie friendly language in Open Source world)

Hi folks

I have more than 12 years experience with UNIX system administration,
but I am too stupid for programming. My only programming experience is
shell scripting. I tried to learn Java, but don't understand it
because it is too complicated for my limited brainpower.

What programming language should I learn?

A friend said that C-Sharp (Mono) is very simple. Is this true?

cheers Sven

I've not used C# - but as I understand it has similar constructs as Java 
(and C++)...

What about Java didn't you understand?  Trying to understand what you 
didn't understand to make a suggestion...

I know, back in the day, I was all about Pascal :)




On Mon, 13 Dec 2010, Sven Aluoor wrote:
> Hi folks
>
> I have more than 12 years experience with UNIX system administration,
> but I am too stupid for programming. My only programming experience is
> shell scripting. I tried to learn Java, but don't understand it
> because it is too complicated for my limited brainpower.
>
> What programming language should I learn?
>
> A friend said that C-Sharp (Mono) is very simple. Is this true?
>
> cheers Sven
> _______________________________________________
> CentOS mailing list
> CentOS at centos.org
> http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
>
-- 
Scot P. Floess


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Chief Architect FlossWare  http://sourceforge.net/projects/flossware
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Chief Architect JPlate     http://sourceforge.net/projects/jplate
Chief Architect JavaPIM    http://sourceforge.net/projects/javapim
Chief Architect Keros      http://sourceforge.net/projects/keros

Sven Aluoor wrote:
> Hi folks
>
> I have more than 12 years experience with UNIX system administration,
> but I am too stupid for programming. My only programming experience is
> shell scripting. I tried to learn Java, but don't understand it
> because it is too complicated for my limited brainpower.
Got about halfway up the learning curve for java, teaching it to myself
about four years ago. I ****->LOATHE<-**** java. Coming one of these days,
an article "The Failure of OO In General, and Java In
Particular.
>
> What programming language should I learn?
>
> A friend said that C-Sharp (Mono) is very simple. Is this true?
C. Then try C++. Are you familiar with perl?

        mark

On Monday, December 13, 2010 11:14:24 am Sven Aluoor
wrote:
> What programming language should I learn?
Python.  You can find useful examples of python code throughout CentOS,
beginning the yum itself.  Get yourself a copy of 'Dive into Python'
(can be had as a free download, legalling) and, well, dive into python!

On December 13, 2010 08:14:24 am Sven Aluoor wrote:
> Hi folks
> 
> I have more than 12 years experience with UNIX system administration,
> but I am too stupid for programming. My only programming experience is
> shell scripting. I tried to learn Java, but don't understand it
> because it is too complicated for my limited brainpower.
> 
> What programming language should I learn?
> 
Perl and Python are probably the most useful languages for system 
administration tasks.

On 12/13/2010 10:14 AM, Sven Aluoor wrote:
> Hi folks
>
> I have more than 12 years experience with UNIX system administration,
> but I am too stupid for programming. My only programming experience is
> shell scripting. I tried to learn Java, but don't understand it
> because it is too complicated for my limited brainpower.
>
> What programming language should I learn?
>
> A friend said that C-Sharp (Mono) is very simple. Is this true?
Perl is probably the easiest next step for someone who has shell 
scripting experience.  The language can as complicated as you want to 
make it, but you can keep it simple if you like.  The big win with perl 
is that pretty much anything you are likely to need to do has already 
been done with code available on CPAN.

On the other hand, if you had some reason to want to use Java (like a 
need to use existing code in binary jars), you might like groovy which 
is mostly compatible with standard java but can also act like an 
interpreter with much of the verbose requirements removed so it is much 
easier to see the logic of a program.

-- 
   Les Mikesell
    lesmikesell at gmail.com

Sven Aluoor wrote:
> Hi folks
>
> I have more than 12 years experience with UNIX system administration,
> but I am too stupid for programming. My only programming experience is
> shell scripting. I tried to learn Java, but don't understand it
> because it is too complicated for my limited brainpower.
>
> What programming language should I learn?
>
> A friend said that C-Sharp (Mono) is very simple. Is this true?
>
> cheers Sven
> _______________________________________________
> CentOS mailing list
> CentOS at centos.org
> http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
>
>   
Look at Python, the syntax is very structured and has few gotchas. It is 
also very useful for various sysadmin tasks.

ChrisG

On Mon, 2010-12-13 at 17:14 +0100, Sven Aluoor wrote:
> Hi folks
> I have more than 12 years experience with UNIX system administration,
> but I am too stupid for programming. My only programming experience is
> shell scripting. I tried to learn Java, but don't understand it
> because it is too complicated for my limited brainpower.
> What programming language should I learn?
> A friend said that C-Sharp (Mono) is very simple. Is this true?
C# is a very nice language and the documentation is top-notch; it
probably has the best documentation of any stack [ with Java being near
the bottom of readable documentation ].  And Monodevelop is a fabulous
cross-platform IDE.

Another one to look at is Python.  You can probably get off-the-ground
faster in Python.  The documentation is fair to good and the core
[standard library in Python parlance] is quite good and reasonably
complete.  Python poses some problems for large solutions or code bases
[Python has sloppy types vs. the virtuous strict types of C#] but that
doesn't really matter if you are just starting out.

On Monday, December 13, 2010 12:54:35 pm Benjamin Franz
wrote:
> But seriously, there are a fair number of (mostly older) languages that 
> are fairly picky about whitespace. I still remember writing FORTRAN.
We still have one application running on a VAXStation 4000 being maintained in
FORTRAN (controlls a 7,000 pound astronomical photographic plate
'scanner' (aka a microdensitometer) using an IEEE488 connected laser
position interferometer servo system and a SCSI-connected CAMAC crate for
general purpose I/O and the A to D pixel photometer readout).  The FCC even did
web cgi programs in FORTRAN.  And there are a number of scientific packages
still using FORTRAN that are still being developed and maintained.  It is far
from a dead language, and is still being taught as a major scientific language. 
FORTRAN and LABview are rather common in academia, as is Matlab.

We're looking at porting the VS4000's FORTRAN code to C on CentOS, but
getting the CAMAC Linux drivers (uses the SCSI generic interface) to work has
been a challenge.

2010/12/13 Sven Aluoor <aluoor at gmail.com>
> Hi folks
>
> I have more than 12 years experience with UNIX system administration,
> but I am too stupid for programming. My only programming experience is
> shell scripting. I tried to learn Java, but don't understand it
> because it is too complicated for my limited brainpower.
>
> What programming language should I learn?
>
> A friend said that C-Sharp (Mono) is very simple. Is this true?
>
> cheers Sven

my first language was pascal. if i'd had the opportunity, i'd start with
c.
herbert schildt's teach yourself c was great for me.

-- 
When one door is closed, another is open.
(Robert Nesta Marley)
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cornel panceac wrote:
> 2010/12/13 Sven Aluoor <aluoor at gmail.com>
>>
>> I have more than 12 years experience with UNIX system administration,
>> but I am too stupid for programming. My only programming experience is
>> shell scripting. I tried to learn Java, but don't understand it
>> because it is too complicated for my limited brainpower.
>>
>> What programming language should I learn?
>>
>> A friend said that C-Sharp (Mono) is very simple. Is this true?
>
> my first language was pascal. if i'd had the opportunity, i'd start
with
> c.
> herbert schildt's teach yourself c was great for me.
Maybe it was because I knew a number of languages before C, but I taught
myself with K&R: no fancy pictures, or huge margins... but it answered all
my questions, and had an index that was useable.

          mark

> What programming language should I learn?
It depends what you want to do.

- build quickly applications, reusing existing components and
understanding a lot of the Linux ecosystem
=> Python

- process quickly huge amount of text files
=> Practical Exrtaction and Reporting Language (aka. PERL, yes you can
do a lot of other things with it, but not so convincingly as with
Python, IMHO)

- performance and resource critical algorithms
=> C++

- simple, fast and powerful websites / understanding CMS such as
Drupal or Wordpress
=> PHP

- enterprise applications
=> Java
(=> or .Net, but then I think that MS Windows is a better platform
than CentOS even though I heard that Mono is working)

I'm personnally a Java developer and tend to do all of the above with Java.

If you are a sysadmin, I would recommend you Python: I don't know it
well, but all people I know who used it love it, and again there are
plenty of the software around which are based on it (also GUIs)

On 13/12/10 16:14, Sven Aluoor wrote:
> I have more than 12 years experience with UNIX system administration,
> but I am too stupid for programming. My only programming experience is
> shell scripting. I tried to learn Java, but don't understand it
> because it is too complicated for my limited brainpower.
> 
> What programming language should I learn?
This is a bit like saying "I have 12 years experience of hunting but I too
myopic to aim a pistol," then asking "which firearm should I
carry?"
> A friend said that C-Sharp (Mono) is very simple. Is this true?
C# is Microsoft's answer to Java and is about as simple.

If you need something simple, try Ook! which is designed for Orang-outangs, has
only three things to learn, and requires no typing (yet alone typing). [1]
Bonus: it even runs on the CLR.

N

1.
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/187715/what-is-your-favorite-esoteric-programming-language#187786

On Monday, December 13, 2010 03:15:48 pm Nick wrote:
> This is a bit like saying "I have 12 years experience of hunting but I
too
> myopic to aim a pistol," then asking "which firearm should I
carry?"
To an extent; I read it more along the lines of 'I have 12 years experience
hunting with a scoped rifle but am too nearsighted to aim a regular pistol with
iron sights, what sort of handgun would you recommend' to which I would
answer 'Remington XP-100 in .223 Remington, .308 Winchester, or .35
Remington, depending on the size game hunted,  or Thompson-Center Contender,
which should be chambered in something like .223 Remington for small game,
.30-30 or .243 Winchester for medium game, and .45-70 for larger game.  Recoil
in the larger calibers will be significant.  Scopes for these handguns are
pretty much required, and range is comparable to a short carbine in the same
caliber.'

In other words, the choice of a new programming language has something to do
with what you're going to do with it.  And much like trying to use a T/C
Contender in .45-70 Government as a first hunting handgun, there are some
languages that aren't really suitable for a first language.  You need to
start with something a little easier to handle, like a Ruger Blackhawk or an
S&W L- or N-frame in .357 Maximum; you can load it with .38 S&W Special
for a fairly easy to shoot handgun, and graduate up through .357 S&W Magnum
and the hard-hitting .357 Remington Maximum; you could even get something in
.357 SuperMag..... And scopes are available for that frame.....

If you've done shell scripting, pick something that can build from that; I
mentioned Python, but Perl or Ruby would be just a good, really.  The key point
is to build on something with some familiarity, and while strongly-typed
languages have their uses and strengths, 'scripting' languages are
possibly going to be an easier learn.

On 12/13/2010 05:14 PM, Sven Aluoor wrote:
> Hi folks
> 
> I have more than 12 years experience with UNIX system administration,
> but I am too stupid for programming. My only programming experience is
> shell scripting. I tried to learn Java, but don't understand it
> because it is too complicated for my limited brainpower.
> 
> What programming language should I learn?
> 
> A friend said that C-Sharp (Mono) is very simple. Is this true?
Have a look at Lua (www.lua.org). Imo it's quite readable and less
challenging than C, C++, C#, Java, Mono etc. There are a couple of Lua
books listed here: http://www.lua.org/docs.html#books
I would recommend getting Programming in Lua (2nd ed), Lua Programming
Gems and if you like a reference on paper then the Lua 5.1 Reference
Manual too (you support the project by buying these books). Some
examples and tutorials: http://lua-users.org/wiki/TutorialDirectory

Whatever you decide to learn, have fun!

Regards,
Patrick

On 14 December 2010 03:14, Sven Aluoor <aluoor at gmail.com>
wrote:
>
> I have more than 12 years experience with UNIX system administration,
> but I am too stupid for programming. My only programming experience is
> shell scripting. I tried to learn Java, but don't understand it
> because it is too complicated for my limited brainpower.
>
> What programming language should I learn?
I have mostly written:
pascal, asm, c, shell, python

and also used:
basic, fortran, ruby, lua, tcl, perl.

I have glanced at:
c++, java.
>From my experience, I'd suggest to definitely consider python.
Reasoning: considering your description, it seems to me the best path
to being able to write useful, flexible, powerful code after the
shortest learning time, plus good beginner resources and clean syntax.
The others I mention do not tick all those boxes, for me.

On Tue, Dec 14, 2010 at 12:14 AM, Sven Aluoor <aluoor at gmail.com>
wrote:
> I have more than 12 years experience with UNIX system administration,
> but I am too stupid for programming. My only programming experience is
> shell scripting. I tried to learn Java, but don't understand it
> because it is too complicated for my limited brainpower.
>
> What programming language should I learn?
Python.

I'm kinda a moron too and I've tried learning Python from many
references.
But the books are not suitable for me, as I need the kind of "XXX
guide for Idiot".

But finally I found one (it's used as university course book actually)
that feels "right" to me:
"Practical Programming - An Introduction to Computer Science Using
Python"
by Jennifer Campbell, Paul Gries, Jason Montojo, Greg Wilson

http://www.amazon.com/Practical-Programming-Introduction-Pragmatic-Programmers/dp/1934356271

A review:
http://millionchimpanzees.blogspot.com/2009/06/practical-programming-introduction-to.html

Good luck to you ^^

On Mon, Dec 13, 2010 at 11:14 AM, Sven Aluoor <aluoor at gmail.com>
wrote:
> Hi folks
>
> I have more than 12 years experience with UNIX system administration,
> but I am too stupid for programming. My only programming experience is
> shell scripting. I tried to learn Java, but don't understand it
> because it is too complicated for my limited brainpower.
>
> What programming language should I learn?
>
> A friend said that C-Sharp (Mono) is very simple. Is this true?
Learn Perl. Learn it well: it's far more flexible and more scalable
than shell, but doesn't ignore your hardwon lessons completely.

A competent Perl programmer who has learned to *check their error
conditions* is worth their weight oyster-crafted gemstones.

> Hi folks
>
> I have more than 12 years experience with UNIX system administration,
> but I am too stupid for programming. My only programming experience is
> shell scripting. I tried to learn Java, but don't understand it
> because it is too complicated for my limited brainpower.
>
> What programming language should I learn?
>
First of all, what's the reason you want to learn to program? For the 
enjoyment of it? To be able to write more complex admin tools? To create 
front-end applications?

If you already know shell scripting, Perl should be easy for you, as the 
syntax is similar (a hybrid of Shell, awk and C, if I remember 
correctly) and is very easy to learn. It also is installed on every Unix 
I've used in the last decade and has an extremely large repository of 
libraries, CPAN, which covers everything you may need and more (writing 
Perl in latin, really?). On the other hand, the OO syntax is awkward, to 
say the least, and reading other people's code can be difficult 
sometimes, as "there is more than one way to it".

Python is quite simple. The syntax is quite alien, compared to most 
"C-based" languages, but it seems to be simple and straightforward for
most people. It also is included with most modern Unix-like OS.

Both, Python and Perl are widely used in CentOS, so you should be able 
to open a tool and see how it works.

PHP can also be useful and it's easy to learn, but it is mostly oriented 
towards web development so, unless that is the way you want to go, I 
would ignore it. It also tends to be a bit of a mess, API wise.

Ruby is another language that seems to be gaining a lot of traction but 
I just can't stand the syntax, and that comes from someone who used to 
be a Perl developer. It also seems to be less in use as a systems 
language, as opposed to a web development language with Ruby on Rails.

C can be a good language if you want to start "from the bottom", learn
how to use pointers, to manage memory without help and to be able to 
write low-level stuff. The syntax is extremely simple, but it's a 
difficult language to master, as it is quite low-level, compared to 
other languages.

If you didn't get Java, I would stay well away from C# (it's mostly a 
Java clone, despite the fact that it now seems to have a nicer syntax a 
a few extra bits that Java misses) and C++ (far too complex... it does 
everything you may want to do but that power comes at the cost of 
simplicity).

My personal preference would be to go for Python. While the issue with 
meaningful whitespace can be REALLY annoying, especially if you copy and 
paste from a terminal (tabs will get converted to spaces and Python 
doesn't like mixed tabs/spaces, indentation is meaningful), the language 
itself is quite clean and straightforward, there are plenty of books and 
tutorials online and, if you're desperate, most sysadmins seem to be 
picking it up as part of their arsenal these days.

Even if you don't end up using Python as your main language, I see it as 
a very good way of learning to program.

Whatever you choose, good luck and let us know what you decide.

Gabriel

On Mon, 13 Dec 2010, cornel panceac wrote:
> my first language was pascal. if i'd had the opportunity, i'd start
with c.
> herbert schildt's teach yourself c was great for me.
Ahh Schildt.  Yes, I learnt from that book too.  A tad dry, and it tends to
teach you syntax more than real program design, but it's an excellent
starting
point, and if you work through it properly doing all the examples you do get a
good base level of understanding.  I'd definitely recommend it.

jh

From: Sven Aluoor <aluoor at gmail.com>
> I have more than 12 years experience with UNIX system  administration,
> but I am too stupid for programming. My only programming  experience is
> shell scripting. I tried to learn Java, but don't understand  it
> because it is too complicated for my limited brainpower.
> What  programming language should I learn?
> A friend said that C-Sharp (Mono) is  very simple. Is this true?
Depends on what you want to develop (web/system/...).
But if you want "simple": php, python, ruby, perl... logo... ;D
Free books:
http://www.mindview.net/Books/
http://greenteapress.com/

JD

cornel panceac wrote:
> my first language was pascal. if i'd had the opportunity, i'd start
with c.
> herbert schildt's teach yourself c was great for me.
I think C is an excellent place to begin. But try K & R
(ISBN-10 0131103628) which is the classic introduction.

Schildt is reviled in the church of C. See
http://accu.org/index.php?module=bookreviews&func=search&rid=608
where he is roundly rebuked. He doesn't do well in any
of the numerous reviews of his books on the ACCU site.

He's even got an entry in the comp.lang.c FAQ:
Q: I need a random number generator.
A: Count errors in Herbert Schildt's C books. No one has detected any
   consistent pattern.

-- 
Charles Polisher

On Monday, December 13, 2010 07:11:40 pm R P Herrold
wrote:
> One could do ** much worse ** than Lua (the rantings of the 
> MSFT fanboi here for the patent encumbered kit, not shipped on 
> CentOS, such as C# come to mind)
Or Intercal, although it's not in the repos.

Which reminds me of my favorite funny line in an RPM description, on Fedora now:
[root at localhost ~]# rpm -qi moserial
Name        : moserial                     Relocations: (not relocatable)
[snip]

Description :
Moserial is a clean, friendly gtk-based serial terminal for the gnome
desktop. It is written in Vala for extra goodness.

:-O (!!??!?!?!?)  And while moserial (and cutecom) have their definite uses (I
have used both), to have the language it's written in as part of the
description beggars the imagination....