asterisk users - Jul 2005 - How does Vonage support fax machines?

My boss is insisting we support fax, and I keep telling him that Fax over
IP is very unreliable and not recommended and his immediate come-back is
"Vonage does it." and it's very hard to figure out how.

I don't think Vonage does T.38, the Linksys/Sipura units they're using
doesn't support T.38 to my knowledge. 

That means they have to be using G.711Ulaw to send faxes. But how do they
compensate for packet loss/jitter/etc.

In our test lab, the best we could get was 90% success at sending faxes.
It seemes to screw up the longer the transmission, ie page 1 was usually
ok, but page 2 and 3 and 4 was at serious risk. So if I bought a Vonage
adapter, can I send a 30 page fax? My best guess is they have high quality
voice T1's, like from an ILEC, usually more expensive, and when they sell
a "Fax Line" I noticed it's more expensive. Maybe they route all
their fax
calls specifically out these high quality T1's that they own, so that they
can do some type of quality control.

My test lab was a private network, a Cisco 3640 connected to a local voice
PRI T1, and converting to SIP. Asterisk would push the calls to the Cisco
3640 and the Linksys PAP2 would register with Asterisk. All local. I then
tried several test faxes throughout the PSTN. Would it be better to plug
the voice T1 straight into Asterisk using one of Digium's cards? 


		
____________________________________________________ 
Yahoo! Sports 
Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football 
http://football.fantasysports.yahoo.com

Deon wrote:
>My boss is insisting we support fax, and I keep telling him that Fax over
>IP is very unreliable and not recommended and his immediate come-back is
>"Vonage does it." and it's very hard to figure out how.
>
>I don't think Vonage does T.38, the Linksys/Sipura units they're
using
>doesn't support T.38 to my knowledge. 
>
>That means they have to be using G.711Ulaw to send faxes. But how do they
>compensate for packet loss/jitter/etc.
>  
>
They don't. I've tried faxing through Vonage. It works *sometimes*. 
Vonage *claims* to do fax, but they don't do it even somewhat reliably. 
If someone thinks differently, have them try it. (Yes, it's just Fax 
over VoIP, ie encode the fax modem in g711u and hope for the best. If 
packets drop, the fax dies.)

cheers,
glenn

Deon wrote:
>My boss is insisting we support fax, and I keep telling him that Fax over
>IP is very unreliable and not recommended and his immediate come-back is
>"Vonage does it." and it's very hard to figure out how.
>
>I don't think Vonage does T.38, the Linksys/Sipura units they're
using
>doesn't support T.38 to my knowledge. 
>
>That means they have to be using G.711Ulaw to send faxes. But how do they
>compensate for packet loss/jitter/etc.
>  
>
They rely upon the resiliance of the fax endpoints... which means that 
you will have great success with resiliant endpoints and high-quality 
connections and you'll have fair-to-poor success with anything else.

Lee.

Deon wrote:
> My boss is insisting we support fax, and I keep telling him that Fax over
> IP is very unreliable and not recommended and his immediate come-back is
> "Vonage does it." and it's very hard to figure out how.
Just because 'Vonage does it' doesn't mean its reliable. In fact,
I've
heard it is very un-reliable. Just because someone says they do it 
doesn't mean they do it well.

Our solution is to use a T38 ATA (www.azatel.com) and a Cisco 5300 
(which supports T38). The call goes thru asterisk as G711 but when it 
hits the 5300, it becomes T38.

So far, this works well for us.

-Matthew

You can use the NVDetect stuff from Newman Telecom works with some 
success (I had it working).
http://www.voip-info.org/tiki-index.php?page=NVFaxDetect
I think echo cancellation can play a factor too.
It isn't perfect though.. I had some page smearing, especially on the 
first page but it worked ok.
They probably don't compensate for packet loss.

Their service isn't perfect either: 
http://www.complaints.com/directory/2004/december/28/52.htm

JD

Deon wrote:
>My boss is insisting we support fax, and I keep telling him that Fax over
>IP is very unreliable and not recommended and his immediate come-back is
>"Vonage does it." and it's very hard to figure out how.
>
>I don't think Vonage does T.38, the Linksys/Sipura units they're
using
>doesn't support T.38 to my knowledge. 
>
>That means they have to be using G.711Ulaw to send faxes. But how do they
>compensate for packet loss/jitter/etc.
>
>In our test lab, the best we could get was 90% success at sending faxes.
>It seemes to screw up the longer the transmission, ie page 1 was usually
>ok, but page 2 and 3 and 4 was at serious risk. So if I bought a Vonage
>adapter, can I send a 30 page fax? My best guess is they have high quality
>voice T1's, like from an ILEC, usually more expensive, and when they
sell
>a "Fax Line" I noticed it's more expensive. Maybe they route
all their fax
>calls specifically out these high quality T1's that they own, so that
they
>can do some type of quality control.
>
>My test lab was a private network, a Cisco 3640 connected to a local voice
>PRI T1, and converting to SIP. Asterisk would push the calls to the Cisco
>3640 and the Linksys PAP2 would register with Asterisk. All local. I then
>tried several test faxes throughout the PSTN. Would it be better to plug
>the voice T1 straight into Asterisk using one of Digium's cards? 
>
>
>		
>____________________________________________________ 
>Yahoo! Sports 
>Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football 
>http://football.fantasysports.yahoo.com
>_______________________________________________
>Asterisk-Users mailing list
>Asterisk-Users@lists.digium.com
>http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
>To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit:
>   http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
>  
>
-- 
JD Austin
Twin Geckos Technology Services LLC
email: jd@twingeckos.com
http://www.twingeckos.com
phone/fax: 480.288.8195

> -----Original Message-----
> From: asterisk-users-bounces@lists.digium.com [mailto:asterisk-users-
> bounces@lists.digium.com] On Behalf Of Deon
> Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 8:32 AM
> To: Asterisk Users
> Subject: [Asterisk-Users] How does Vonage support fax machines?
> 
> My boss is insisting we support fax, and I keep telling him that Fax
over
> IP is very unreliable and not recommended and his immediate come-back
is
> "Vonage does it." and it's very hard to figure out how.
> 
> I don't think Vonage does T.38, the Linksys/Sipura units they're
using
> doesn't support T.38 to my knowledge.
> 
> That means they have to be using G.711Ulaw to send faxes. But how do
they
> compensate for packet loss/jitter/etc.
> 
> In our test lab, the best we could get was 90% success at sending
faxes.
> It seemes to screw up the longer the transmission, ie page 1 was
usually
> ok, but page 2 and 3 and 4 was at serious risk. So if I bought a
Vonage
> adapter, can I send a 30 page fax? My best guess is they have high
quality
> voice T1's, like from an ILEC, usually more expensive, and when they
sell
> a "Fax Line" I noticed it's more expensive. Maybe they route
all their
fax
> calls specifically out these high quality T1's that they own, so that
they
> can do some type of quality control.
> 
> My test lab was a private network, a Cisco 3640 connected to a local
voice
> PRI T1, and converting to SIP. Asterisk would push the calls to the
Cisco
> 3640 and the Linksys PAP2 would register with Asterisk. All local. I
then
> tried several test faxes throughout the PSTN. Would it be better to
plug
> the voice T1 straight into Asterisk using one of Digium's cards?
> 
We relay faxes to/from a PRI connected to * to a fax machine using a
sipura spa-2000 and g.711u. The span between * and the spa-2000 is a
single LAN switch, 100mbit.

While t.38 would be better, it appears to us that g.711u works well on
low latency links, so "supporting fax over IP" would likely require
QoS
implementation on the IP link if there are latency/jitter issues.

Vonage's fax is useless.  I've tried four or five different fax devices
(several modems and two different fax machines), and not only was I
unsuccessful, but I also got their support's "We don't support...
XXX"
reply every single time.  When asked which device they DO support, the
replies ceased.   When asking for a refund on the activation fee and
monthly fees for the fax-line, I was asked to contact tech-support to
work out any problems.

Jay -- Vonage-free for 9 months now.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Deon [mailto:mr_e_glitch@yahoo.com] 
> Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 9:32 AM
> To: Asterisk Users
> Subject: [Asterisk-Users] How does Vonage support fax machines?
> 
> 
> My boss is insisting we support fax, and I keep telling him 
> that Fax over IP is very unreliable and not recommended and 
> his immediate come-back is "Vonage does it." and it's very 
> hard to figure out how.
> 
> I don't think Vonage does T.38, the Linksys/Sipura units 
> they're using doesn't support T.38 to my knowledge. 
> 
> That means they have to be using G.711Ulaw to send faxes. But 
> how do they compensate for packet loss/jitter/etc.
> 
> In our test lab, the best we could get was 90% success at 
> sending faxes. It seemes to screw up the longer the 
> transmission, ie page 1 was usually ok, but page 2 and 3 and 
> 4 was at serious risk. So if I bought a Vonage adapter, can I 
> send a 30 page fax? My best guess is they have high quality 
> voice T1's, like from an ILEC, usually more expensive, and 
> when they sell a "Fax Line" I noticed it's more expensive. 
> Maybe they route all their fax calls specifically out these 
> high quality T1's that they own, so that they can do some 
> type of quality control.
> 
> My test lab was a private network, a Cisco 3640 connected to 
> a local voice PRI T1, and converting to SIP. Asterisk would 
> push the calls to the Cisco 3640 and the Linksys PAP2 would 
> register with Asterisk. All local. I then tried several test 
> faxes throughout the PSTN. Would it be better to plug the 
> voice T1 straight into Asterisk using one of Digium's cards? 
> 
> 
> 		
> ____________________________________________________ 
> Yahoo! Sports 
> Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football 
> http://football.fantasysports.yahoo.com
> _______________________________________________
> Asterisk-Users mailing list
> Asterisk-Users@lists.digium.com 
> http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/aster> isk-users
> To 
> UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit:
>    
http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users

I've got a handful of ATAs <Innomedia> that support two ports... I
have one plugged in for voice for the house and the other I use for dialup
internet.. ONLY for testing newly built dial-up computers that they can get
online and surf... Gotten some pretty good speeds out of them too

Robert A. Huddleston, KF4BYY
Cavalier Telephone LLC.
(Desk) 804.422.4401
(Cell) 804.400.3686
rhuddleston@cavtel.com
 
 
 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: asterisk-users-bounces@lists.digium.com 
> [mailto:asterisk-users-bounces@lists.digium.com] On Behalf Of Deon
> Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 12:07 PM
> To: Asterisk Users Mailing List - Non-Commercial Discussion
> Subject: Re: [Asterisk-Users] How does Vonage support fax machines?
> 
> So they're doing it just like anybody else would, nothing 
> special and nothing rock-solid.  
> 
> A person with a not-so-good high speed internet connection, 
> who is able to push norma voice calls perfectly, would have 
> just as much problems sending faxes via Vonage as a PAP2-NA 
> connected to Asterisk and some Voice T1's.
> Vice versa, a person with a great internet connection should 
> be able to push faxes just as reliably through our setup vs Vonage. 
> 
> We have a lot of our own remote agents in the field, and 
> we've been giving them adapters so they can handle 
> sales/service/support calls from home.
> Some of them require a fax machine for invoices or whatnot 
> and we've been telling them to use their regular home line, 
> and if it's long distance they have to go through a procedure 
> to get reimbursement, we're trying to simplify their (and 
> our) lives by using these converters.
> 
> --- Lee Howard <faxguy@howardsilvan.com> wrote:
> 
> > Deon wrote:
> > 
> > >My boss is insisting we support fax, and I keep telling 
> him that Fax
> > over
> > >IP is very unreliable and not recommended and his 
> immediate come-back
> > is
> > >"Vonage does it." and it's very hard to figure out
how.
> > >
> > >I don't think Vonage does T.38, the Linksys/Sipura units
they're
> > >using doesn't support T.38 to my knowledge.
> > >
> > >That means they have to be using G.711Ulaw to send faxes. 
> But how do
> > they
> > >compensate for packet loss/jitter/etc.
> > >  
> > >
> > 
> > They rely upon the resiliance of the fax endpoints... which 
> means that 
> > you will have great success with resiliant endpoints and 
> high-quality 
> > connections and you'll have fair-to-poor success with anything
else.
> > 
> > Lee.
> > _______________________________________________
> > Asterisk-Users mailing list
> > Asterisk-Users@lists.digium.com
> > http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
> > To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit:
> >    http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> 		
> ____________________________________________________
> Yahoo! Sports
> Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football 
> http://football.fantasysports.yahoo.com
> _______________________________________________
> Asterisk-Users mailing list
> Asterisk-Users@lists.digium.com
> http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
> To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit:
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> 
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What makes you think they do? The marketing pieces? We all know G71 is 
not reliable for faxing, and for Vonage to advertise it is irresponsible 
of them.
>
>		
>____________________________________________________ 
>Yahoo! Sports 
>Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football 
>http://football.fantasysports.yahoo.com
>_______________________________________________
>Asterisk-Users mailing list
>Asterisk-Users@lists.digium.com
>http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
>To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit:
>   http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
>
>  
>

-- 
Chris Mason
NetConcepts
(264) 497-5670 Fax: (264) 497-8463
Int:  (305) 704-7249 Fax: (815)301-9759 
Cell: 264-235-5670
Yahoo IM: netconcepts_anguilla@yahoo.com

> -----Original Message-----
> From: asterisk-users-bounces@lists.digium.com [mailto:asterisk-users-
> bounces@lists.digium.com] On Behalf Of Chris Mason (Lists)
> Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 1:35 PM
> To: Asterisk Users Mailing List - Non-Commercial Discussion
> Subject: Re: [Asterisk-Users] How does Vonage support fax machines?
> 
> What makes you think they do? The marketing pieces? We all know G71 is
> not reliable for faxing, and for Vonage to advertise it is
irresponsible
> of them.
> 
mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users

They clearly advertise it, and the even indicate that you use port 2 on
your ATA!

They support it the same way they support QoS, if it does not work they
tell you to call your ISP.

Here is the link

http://www.vonage.com/features.php?feature=fax

We used the 3Tone service from Level3 and their fax was really unreliable
too. It was a hit or miss if you could send or receive and the quality of
the fax was really bad. We went back to the old fashion way.

Rick

-----Original Message-----
From: asterisk-users-bounces@lists.digium.com
[mailto:asterisk-users-bounces@lists.digium.com] On Behalf Of Damon Estep
Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 1:58 PM
To: lists@masonc.com; Asterisk Users Mailing List - Non-Commercial
Discussion
Subject: RE: [Asterisk-Users] How does Vonage support fax machines?


> -----Original Message-----
> From: asterisk-users-bounces@lists.digium.com [mailto:asterisk-users-
> bounces@lists.digium.com] On Behalf Of Chris Mason (Lists)
> Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 1:35 PM
> To: Asterisk Users Mailing List - Non-Commercial Discussion
> Subject: Re: [Asterisk-Users] How does Vonage support fax machines?
> 
> What makes you think they do? The marketing pieces? We all know G71 is
> not reliable for faxing, and for Vonage to advertise it is
irresponsible
> of them.
> 
mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users

They clearly advertise it, and the even indicate that you use port 2 on
your ATA!

They support it the same way they support QoS, if it does not work they
tell you to call your ISP.

Here is the link

http://www.vonage.com/features.php?feature=fax
_______________________________________________
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