Just curious if any of the Asterisk installers are doing anything special to protect themselves from a possible lawsuit caused by 911 failure during a Asterisk/computer crash? I realize that any traditional PBX or even a phone line can fail but, anything running on a computer is probably going to be less reliable than most PBXs. Anybody requiring customers to acknowledge and sign any kind of waiver? Just the legal fees of defending yourself in a lawsuit could sink most Asterisk installers.
On Tue, 2004-01-06 at 10:56, Jim Flagg wrote:> Just curious if any of the Asterisk installers are doing anything special > to protect themselves from a possible lawsuit caused by 911 failure > during a Asterisk/computer crash? > > I realize that any traditional PBX or even a phone line can fail but, > anything running on a computer is probably going to be less reliable > than most PBXs.What do you think most PBXs are? Maybe not a x86, but it is a computer.> Anybody requiring customers to acknowledge and sign any kind of > waiver? Just the legal fees of defending yourself in a lawsuit could > sink most Asterisk installers.Good question otherwise. -- Steven Critchfield <critch@basesys.com>
This is esp true of any VoIP PBX system. In fact I think many of them run Windows. I do have a related question about how * users are creating redundancy in thier setups? I am going live in a few days with a single office setup where I have patched the * PBX in front of our existing legacy phone system, giving us auto attendent and voice mail, plus the potential to do a large scale test of IP phones. If successful the next step is a 150-400 station multi-office setup. Most calls are inter-building such that we currently only need 6 outbound lines to the PSTN. -- Jonathan Moore Director of Technology Winfield Public Schools Office 620.221.5100 Fax 620.221.0508 Quoting Steven Critchfield <critch@basesys.com>:> On Tue, 2004-01-06 at 10:56, Jim Flagg wrote: > > Just curious if any of the Asterisk installers are doing anything special > > to protect themselves from a possible lawsuit caused by 911 failure > > during a Asterisk/computer crash? > > > > I realize that any traditional PBX or even a phone line can fail but, > > anything running on a computer is probably going to be less reliable > > than most PBXs. > > What do you think most PBXs are? Maybe not a x86, but it is a computer. > > > Anybody requiring customers to acknowledge and sign any kind of > > waiver? Just the legal fees of defending yourself in a lawsuit could > > sink most Asterisk installers. > > Good question otherwise. > -- > Steven Critchfield <critch@basesys.com> > > _______________________________________________ > Asterisk-Users mailing list > Asterisk-Users@lists.digium.com > http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users >Visit Winfield Public Schools at http://usd465.com ------------------------------------------------- This mail sent through IMP: http://horde.org/imp/
I would ask the same question about zero SLA Broadband Internet providers. How could an Asterisk installers determine if the Broadband latency reached a level were the IP network was not available to a VoIP subscriber at time of a 911 call. this is a log clip of a SIP UA connecting across a Cable modem. Jan 5 17:48:57 NOTICE[-1127097424]: File chan_sip.c, Line 4682 (handle_response): Peer '6400' is now TOO LAGGED! Jan 5 17:49:07 NOTICE[-1127097424]: File chan_sip.c, Line 4677 (handle_response): Peer '6400' is now REACHABLE! Jan 5 17:51:09 NOTICE[-1127097424]: File chan_sip.c, Line 4682 (handle_response): Peer '6400' is now TOO LAGGED! Jan 5 17:51:19 NOTICE[-1127097424]: File chan_sip.c, Line 4677 (handle_response): Peer '6400' is now REACHABLE! Jan 5 17:59:20 NOTICE[-1127097424]: File chan_sip.c, Line 4682 (handle_response): Peer '6400' is now TOO LAGGED! Jan 5 17:59:30 NOTICE[-1127097424]: File chan_sip.c, Line 4677 (handle_response): Peer '6400' is now REACHABLE! This subscriber would have a "Best Effort" 911 service. Doug Jim Flagg wrote:> Just curious if any of the Asterisk installers are doing anything special > to protect themselves from a possible lawsuit caused by 911 failure > during a Asterisk/computer crash? > > I realize that any traditional PBX or even a phone line can fail but, > anything running on a computer is probably going to be less reliable > than most PBXs. > > Anybody requiring customers to acknowledge and sign any kind of > waiver? Just the legal fees of defending yourself in a lawsuit could > sink most Asterisk installers. > _______________________________________________ > Asterisk-Users mailing list > Asterisk-Users@lists.digium.com > http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users-- FREE Unlimited Worldwide Voip calling set-up an account and start saving today! http://www.voippages.com ext. 7000 http://www.pulver.com/fwd/ ext. 83740 free IP phone software @ http://www.xten.com/ http://iaxclient.sourceforge.net/iaxcomm/
Terence, Thank you for sharing your thoughts on our judicial system. I am glad you are there and I am here. <<(i'm not under jurisdiction of a ridiculous judicial system)>> Anyway, I work in the 911 arena and in the US many states mandate that you have E911 (identify the persons location and call back number to the PSAP) depending on how much space your facility covers. Imagine a company that is in a multi-building campus or multi-floor high rise environment and an employee dials 911 and all the police get is the trunk number at the police station. Imagine if he then faints and cannot tell the PSAP where he is. In classic PBX's the telephone stations are more static and any moves and changes are more hardwired and the changes are sent to the Telco (PS/ALI) database. In VoIP the users are much more mobile. They can pick up their Telephone (VoIP device) go somewhere else and plug into a network jack and call 911. Now imagine this person having his SIP phone in IOWA talking to the the telephone switch in New York via VPN and dialing 911. The call will go to NYPD. There is an organization called NENA that creates guidelines for 911 which most PBX vendors follow. The VoIP issue and 911 is a very big issue and no one has an absolute solution (even though some claim they do). The problem is really discovery of phone devices on the network end points(which end switch and port they are plugged into, gets worse with wireless). The 911 issue is very real for large installations. For smaller ones make sure you put an analog phone at the line coming from the CO or have a single POTS line (usually a FAX line) to use in an emergency. As far as dial tone, yes, even the big PBX's fail but they have 99.999% (at least they claim?) uptime. The cheaper PC you provide the more failures. In one company we put an enhanced 911 system and in the first week a persons life was saved because of it. Don't take 911 lightly, its to save lives not to save law suits. Thank you. Phil Menico -----Original Message----- From: asterisk-users-admin@lists.digium.com [mailto:asterisk-users-admin@lists.digium.com] On Behalf Of Terence Parker Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2004 12:43 PM To: asterisk-users@lists.digium.com Subject: Re: [Asterisk-Users] 911 and lawsuits It's just as well that here in Hong Kong employers don't have to worry about being sued by their staff tripping over their own laces ; or microwave oven manufacturers getting sued by old ladies drying off their poodle ; or supermarket owners getting sued by stupid customers who trip over their own kids. In most countries cases such as these would be thrown out the minute they are filed. Of course, these are slight exaggerations insofar as asterisk is concerned - because being able to dial 911 (or 999 as it is in this part of the world) is a much more 'genuine' problem. But nonetheless, it should be the responsibility of the implementor of such a system to ensure that there are adequate measures taken against system failure - such as UPS, or even a primitive analogue phone line somewhere in the home/office. Though I cannot possibly comment regarding 'fear of being prosecuted', simply because I have no reason to fear (i'm not under jurisdiction of a ridiculous judicial system) - I would say that it is a huge shame that a group of people all with the common goal of contributing towards free software projects such as this should even have to worry about things such as lawsuits. If there are people out there who have problems with asterisk, I suggest they just don't use it. To go as far as suing - that is just taking the piss! (sorry, can't think of equivalent non-British term). Terence> > Just curious if any of the Asterisk installers are doing anythingspecial> > to protect themselves from a possible lawsuit caused by 911 failure > > during a Asterisk/computer crash? > > > > I realize that any traditional PBX or even a phone line can fail > > but, anything running on a computer is probably going to be less > > reliable than most PBXs. > > What do you think most PBXs are? Maybe not a x86, but it is a > computer. > > > Anybody requiring customers to acknowledge and sign any kind of > > waiver? Just the legal fees of defending yourself in a lawsuit > > could sink most Asterisk installers._______________________________________________ Asterisk-Users mailing list Asterisk-Users@lists.digium.com http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
> Now imagine this person having his SIP phone in IOWA talking > to the the telephone switch in New York via VPN and dialing > 911. The call will go to NYPD.Why is it the theoretical VoIP user in such examples always seems to be from Iowa or Nebraska? I feel compelled to state that not all people from these states are farmers with pitchforks and SIP phones. I personally live in Omaha, Nebraska, a city I that the Census Bureau indicates I share with 390,006 others, and that may not even include the suburbs. I respectfully request that future examples use other sparsely populated states such as Montana or perhaps a Canadian province from time-to-time. On a more serious note this thread has been very interesting, and this 911 issue will be very important to our organization in the near future. Luckily the 911 operations center is located in our basement so collaboration is easier for us, but when we roll out VoIP we will need to address the redundancy issues and the location issues for remote offices just like any other business. -- Tony Kava Senior Network Administrator Pottawattamie County, Iowa
Jonathan, My take on redundancy is to use a real server with disk mirroring and redundant power supplies. I would be very interested to hear your progress on this project as I am sure most everyone would be. Please keep us updated on it. Thanks, Steve Totaro ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jonathan Moore" <moorejon@usd465.com> To: <asterisk-users@lists.digium.com> Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2004 9:34 AM Subject: Re: [Asterisk-Users] 911 and lawsuits and redundancy> This is esp true of any VoIP PBX system. In fact I think many of them runWindows.> > I do have a related question about how * users are creating redundancy inthier> setups? I am going live in a few days with a single office setup where Ihave> patched the * PBX in front of our existing legacy phone system, giving usauto> attendent and voice mail, plus the potential to do a large scale test ofIP> phones. If successful the next step is a 150-400 station multi-officesetup.> Most calls are inter-building such that we currently only need 6 outboundlines> to the PSTN. > > > -- > Jonathan Moore > Director of Technology > Winfield Public Schools > Office 620.221.5100 > Fax 620.221.0508 > > > Quoting Steven Critchfield <critch@basesys.com>: > > > On Tue, 2004-01-06 at 10:56, Jim Flagg wrote: > > > Just curious if any of the Asterisk installers are doing anythingspecial> > > to protect themselves from a possible lawsuit caused by 911 failure > > > during a Asterisk/computer crash? > > > > > > I realize that any traditional PBX or even a phone line can fail but, > > > anything running on a computer is probably going to be less reliable > > > than most PBXs. > > > > What do you think most PBXs are? Maybe not a x86, but it is a computer. > > > > > Anybody requiring customers to acknowledge and sign any kind of > > > waiver? Just the legal fees of defending yourself in a lawsuit could > > > sink most Asterisk installers. > > > > Good question otherwise. > > -- > > Steven Critchfield <critch@basesys.com> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Asterisk-Users mailing list > > Asterisk-Users@lists.digium.com > > http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users > > > > > Visit Winfield Public Schools at http://usd465.com > ------------------------------------------------- > This mail sent through IMP: http://horde.org/imp/ > _______________________________________________ > Asterisk-Users mailing list > Asterisk-Users@lists.digium.com > http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users >
Hi Tony, Only used IOWA because I am all the way in NYC. It is very central and advanced as far as I am concerned. Next time I will say NEW JERSEY. Ask the 911 operations center managers about NENA. They should know about it. NENA (National Emergency Number Association) are the ones who try to make policy for E911. Very respected (I believe all volunteers) people in the 911 community with great knowledge of the issues. Thank you. Phil Menico -----Original Message----- From: asterisk-users-admin@lists.digium.com [mailto:asterisk-users-admin@lists.digium.com] On Behalf Of Tony Kava Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2004 5:55 PM To: 'asterisk-users@lists.digium.com' Subject: RE: [Asterisk-Users] 911 and lawsuits> Now imagine this person having his SIP phone in IOWA talking > to the the telephone switch in New York via VPN and dialing > 911. The call will go to NYPD.Why is it the theoretical VoIP user in such examples always seems to be from Iowa or Nebraska? I feel compelled to state that not all people from these states are farmers with pitchforks and SIP phones. I personally live in Omaha, Nebraska, a city I that the Census Bureau indicates I share with 390,006 others, and that may not even include the suburbs. I respectfully request that future examples use other sparsely populated states such as Montana or perhaps a Canadian province from time-to-time. On a more serious note this thread has been very interesting, and this 911 issue will be very important to our organization in the near future. Luckily the 911 operations center is located in our basement so collaboration is easier for us, but when we roll out VoIP we will need to address the redundancy issues and the location issues for remote offices just like any other business. -- Tony Kava Senior Network Administrator Pottawattamie County, Iowa _______________________________________________ Asterisk-Users mailing list Asterisk-Users@lists.digium.com http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users