As nobody seems to answer my request, I simply post it again. Is there any reason why the r-help-mailinglist should not be converted to a newsgroup? These were the advantages of a newsgroup I mentioned earlier: -) you can easily search the archives -) the discussion is faster (I experience that the R-mailinglist has a lag of about 1 to 2 hours (not for everyone!!!). When I ask a question, I get sometimes a rather quick response by direct mail, but I recieve my own question and the answers about 1 to 2 hours later). Hence it is not possible for all to participate in a discussion. -) a newsgroup allows you to order the messages in threads, so you can easily follow the discussion. Now I find that my lag is increasing (up to 4 hours). I do not believe that there would be any sense for me in replying on a question, when there have already replied some other people (what I do not know at that time). But maybe it would make because nobody has replied yet. How should I know? Thomas Pesl -.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.- r-help mailing list -- Read http://www.ci.tuwien.ac.at/~hornik/R/R-FAQ.html Send "info", "help", or "[un]subscribe" (in the "body", not the subject !) To: r-help-request at stat.math.ethz.ch _._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._
On 04-Sep-2001 Pesl Thomas wrote:> As nobody seems to answer my request, I simply post it again. > Is there any reason why the r-help-mailinglist should not be converted to a > newsgroup?I can think of two disadvantages of a newsgroup 1) Access Everyone with an email address can sub_scribe to the R mailing lists. However, not everyone has a news feed. I don't. 2) Control Moving to a news group means giving up control over the list. For example, Martin Maechler has put excellent spam filters in place and we certainly wouldn't have those any more. In terms of the other points you raise, the R mailing lists do have archives at http://www.ens.gu.edu.au/robertk/R/about.htm and you can search these with an advanced google search. Many e-mail clients can order messages by thread and, more importantly, filter them. This is not really a news-group/mailing list difference. Martyn -.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.- r-help mailing list -- Read http://www.ci.tuwien.ac.at/~hornik/R/R-FAQ.html Send "info", "help", or "[un]subscribe" (in the "body", not the subject !) To: r-help-request at stat.math.ethz.ch _._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._
Pesl Thomas <thomas.pesl at arcs.ac.at> writes:> As nobody seems to answer my request, I simply post it again. > Is there any reason why the r-help-mailinglist should not be converted to a > newsgroup? > > These were the advantages of a newsgroup I mentioned earlier: > -) you can easily search the archives > -) the discussion is faster (I experience that the R-mailinglist has a lag > of about 1 to 2 hours (not for everyone!!!). When I ask a question, I get > sometimes a rather quick response by direct mail, but I recieve my own > question and the answers about 1 to 2 hours later). Hence it is not possible > for all to participate in a discussion. > -) a newsgroup allows you to order the messages in threads, so you can > easily follow the discussion. > > Now I find that my lag is increasing (up to 4 hours). I do not believe that > there would be any sense for me in replying on a question, when there have > already replied some other people (what I do not know at that time). But > maybe it would make because nobody has replied yet. How should I know?Much as I like newsgroups, there are various counterarguments to take into consideration. - Newsgroups easily become spamtraps unless someone actively cancels articles - Some people do not have news access. Some lists solve this by a bidirectional mail-to-news gateway, but it is not without problems. - News works by a flooding algorithm. Messages may take different routes from newsfeed to newsfeed. *You* may have a quick news server, but I subscribe to several groups where I get messages with response preceding the question and sometimes delayed by days - a full newsfeed generates gigabytes of traffic each day and sometimes machines or communication lines clog up. The rapid response you see on newsgroups is sometimes deceptive: Your message shows up immediately on your nearby news server, but you have no idea when it will show up for the guy you are replying to. - You can actually get mail readers that sorts mail into folders by mailing list and organize it into threads. Mine for instance... The indexing by systems like groups.google.com would be very valuable, though. I've lost count of the number of times I have solved miscellaneous computer problems by scanning posts on google or (Deja as it used to be). -- O__ ---- Peter Dalgaard Blegdamsvej 3 c/ /'_ --- Dept. of Biostatistics 2200 Cph. N (*) \(*) -- University of Copenhagen Denmark Ph: (+45) 35327918 ~~~~~~~~~~ - (p.dalgaard at biostat.ku.dk) FAX: (+45) 35327907 -.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.- r-help mailing list -- Read http://www.ci.tuwien.ac.at/~hornik/R/R-FAQ.html Send "info", "help", or "[un]subscribe" (in the "body", not the subject !) To: r-help-request at stat.math.ethz.ch _._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._
| As nobody seems to answer my request, I simply post it again. | Is there any reason why the r-help-mailinglist should not be converted to a | newsgroup? Not that my opinion means much, but: 1. The few newsgroups I tried seemed to be littered with spam, porno, etc., despite being on academic topics. The only ones that seem not to be that way are moderated ones. 2. | -) the discussion is faster (I experience that the R-mailinglist has a lag | of about 1 to 2 hours (not for everyone!!!). When I ask a question, I get | sometimes a rather quick response by direct mail, but I recieve my own | question and the answers about 1 to 2 hours later). Well, for me, it hasn't been that long of a wait. I could also funnily ask, coming from one of my old professors---"What's the rush, are you launching nuclear missles or does someone's life hang in the balance?" 3. Hence it is not possible | for all to participate in a discussion. | -) a newsgroup allows you to order the messages in threads, so you can | easily follow the discussion. There seems to be a healthy amount of discussion and comment IMO. 4. A final thing, not all servers can access all news groups. E-mail doesn't have that problem. Best, Mark Hall -.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.- r-help mailing list -- Read http://www.ci.tuwien.ac.at/~hornik/R/R-FAQ.html Send "info", "help", or "[un]subscribe" (in the "body", not the subject !) To: r-help-request at stat.math.ethz.ch _._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._
>>>>> "ThomasP" == Pesl Thomas <thomas.pesl at arcs.ac.at> writes:ThomasP> Is there any reason why the r-help-mailinglist should not be ThomasP> converted to a newsgroup? ThomasP> These were the advantages of a newsgroup I mentioned earlier: ThomasP> .... ThomasP> -) the discussion is faster (I experience that the R-mailinglist ThomasP> has a lag of about 1 to 2 hours (not for everyone!!!). ThomasP> .... ThomasP> Now I find that my lag is increasing (up to 4 hours). Almost every point has been answered/discussed already. Just a remark from the mailing list maintainer on the (non)-speed of R-help: Yes, the delays are longer than they should; if you subscribed late (in the history of R) and as first person from your "e-mail domain", you will have longer delays than others. It is our server (and its setup of "sendmail") which is not faster, but at least it's one where I have lots of control. Setting up and configuring the basic mail service is not my business though. I have tried to use an alternative to sendmail ("bulkmail") for a mailing list `explosion', but that failed for obscure reasons that I didn't want to follow up back then. The situation *will* improve hopefully within the next few months for another reason: The mail server has currently too many duties (including CRAN.ch) and hopefully will soon be retired from one of its major tasks, and hence be speedier in mail handling. BTW: We have currently 822 adresses subscribed to R-help and 568 to R-announce (which is gatewayed into R-help). If I add R-devel and the *-digest lists and uniqify the subscribed addresses, we currently have 1338 unique subscriber addresses (up from 1119 as of Feb.2, when I started collecting the combined statistics). As to your delays, Thomas, here are the facts : > ## Data from Aug.18 -- Sept.4, 2001 [13:45] > ## On Server: > ## 1) > ## grep -i 'pesl.*delay' /var/log/syslog > syslog-pesl > ## zgrep -i 'pesl.*delay' /var/log/SYSLOG/syslog.2001.Aug.25.gz > syslog-pesl-1 > ## 2) Using Emacs on these two: > ## i. goto beginning (query-replace-regexp ".*, delay=" "" nil) > ## ii.goto beginning (query-replace-regexp ",.*" "" nil) > ## Result of both files concatenated in to this one: > str(del.pesl <- scan("/u/maechler/Mail/MISC/syslog-pesl-delays", what = "")) Read 151 items chr [1:151] "00:25:52" "02:44:42" "03:03:42" "03:08:49" "02:38:14" ... > str(ll.d <- strsplit(del.pesl, ":"))#- all sublists of length 3 List of 151 $ : chr [1:3] "00" "25" "52" $ : chr [1:3] "02" "44" "42" $ : chr [1:3] "03" "03" "42" $ : chr [1:3] "03" "08" "49" .......... $ : chr [1:3] "02" "47" "01" $ : chr [1:3] "02" "33" "59" $ : chr [1:3] "02" "28" "42" > str(secs <- sapply(ll.d, function(ch3) c(as.integer(ch3) %*% c(3600, 60, 1)))) num [1:151] 1552 9882 11022 11329 9494 ... > dSecs <- structure(secs, units = "secs", class = "difftime") ## too bad, we don't have a nice summary.difftime() yet ... > summary(dSecs) / 3600 Min. 1st Qu. Median Mean 3rd Qu. Max. 0.179 2.200 2.336 2.275 2.558 3.583 so, it's 2:20 that you have to suffer on the `average' which seems well bearable. As you point out yourself: If you post yourself, you get answers by direct e-mail very quickly. For everything else, the people who are on the train for a longer time will have the opportunity to answer before the newcomers -- which I think is not bad. By the way, there are quite a few subscribers to "r-help-digest" which is the digest version of R-help arriving (at most) 6 times a week only. They know they lag behind and still sometimes react very helpfully. Regards, Martin Maechler <maechler at stat.math.ethz.ch> http://stat.ethz.ch/~maechler/ Seminar fuer Statistik, ETH-Zentrum LEO D10 Leonhardstr. 27 ETH (Federal Inst. Technology) 8092 Zurich SWITZERLAND phone: x-41-1-632-3408 fax: ...-1228 <>< -.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.- r-help mailing list -- Read http://www.ci.tuwien.ac.at/~hornik/R/R-FAQ.html Send "info", "help", or "[un]subscribe" (in the "body", not the subject !) To: r-help-request at stat.math.ethz.ch _._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._
One reason not to convert the r-help mailing list into a newsgroup: Newsgroups are not accesible in all countries. Kjetil Halvorsen Pesl Thomas wrote:> > As nobody seems to answer my request, I simply post it again. > Is there any reason why the r-help-mailinglist should not be converted to a > newsgroup? > > These were the advantages of a newsgroup I mentioned earlier: > -) you can easily search the archives > -) the discussion is faster (I experience that the R-mailinglist has a lag > of about 1 to 2 hours (not for everyone!!!). When I ask a question, I get > sometimes a rather quick response by direct mail, but I recieve my own > question and the answers about 1 to 2 hours later). Hence it is not possible > for all to participate in a discussion. > -) a newsgroup allows you to order the messages in threads, so you can > easily follow the discussion. > > Now I find that my lag is increasing (up to 4 hours). I do not believe that > there would be any sense for me in replying on a question, when there have > already replied some other people (what I do not know at that time). But > maybe it would make because nobody has replied yet. How should I know? > > Thomas Pesl > -.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.- > r-help mailing list -- Read http://www.ci.tuwien.ac.at/~hornik/R/R-FAQ.html > Send "info", "help", or "[un]subscribe" > (in the "body", not the subject !) To: r-help-request at stat.math.ethz.ch > _._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.- r-help mailing list -- Read http://www.ci.tuwien.ac.at/~hornik/R/R-FAQ.html Send "info", "help", or "[un]subscribe" (in the "body", not the subject !) To: r-help-request at stat.math.ethz.ch _._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._
kjetil halvorsen wrote:> One reason not to convert the r-help mailing list into a newsgroup: > Newsgroups are not accesible in all countries. > > Kjetil HalvorsenThank you Kjetil, I agree with you. My internet server do not have a newsgroup systems. So, please do not convert R help list in a newsgroup. Thank you!> > > Pesl Thomas wrote: > > > > As nobody seems to answer my request, I simply post it again. > > Is there any reason why the r-help-mailinglist should not be converted to a > > newsgroup? > > > > These were the advantages of a newsgroup I mentioned earlier: > > -) you can easily search the archives > > -) the discussion is faster (I experience that the R-mailinglist has a lag > > of about 1 to 2 hours (not for everyone!!!). When I ask a question, I get > > sometimes a rather quick response by direct mail, but I recieve my own > > question and the answers about 1 to 2 hours later). Hence it is not possible > > for all to participate in a discussion. > > -) a newsgroup allows you to order the messages in threads, so you can > > easily follow the discussion. > > > > Now I find that my lag is increasing (up to 4 hours). I do not believe that > > there would be any sense for me in replying on a question, when there have > > already replied some other people (what I do not know at that time). But > > maybe it would make because nobody has replied yet. How should I know? > > > > Thomas Pesl > > -.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.- > > r-help mailing list -- Read http://www.ci.tuwien.ac.at/~hornik/R/R-FAQ.html > > Send "info", "help", or "[un]subscribe" > > (in the "body", not the subject !) To: r-help-request at stat.math.ethz.ch > > _._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._ > -.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.- > r-help mailing list -- Read http://www.ci.tuwien.ac.at/~hornik/R/R-FAQ.html > Send "info", "help", or "[un]subscribe" > (in the "body", not the subject !) To: r-help-request at stat.math.ethz.ch > _._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.- r-help mailing list -- Read http://www.ci.tuwien.ac.at/~hornik/R/R-FAQ.html Send "info", "help", or "[un]subscribe" (in the "body", not the subject !) To: r-help-request at stat.math.ethz.ch _._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._
After reading all this, I have come to the conclusion that a newsgroup would present many obstacles. I would support it if it were started, but it seems clear that some sort of mailing list is still needed. Mail-news gateways are also more complicated than they may appear. (My university has all but abolished them because of excessive demands for staff support from people who try to use them.) Thus, I am planning to try to set up the mail archives so that they are searchable with HtDig. I'm not sure that this can be done (by me), but I thought that I ought to say that I intend to try. I already have HtDig set up for R documents at http://finzi.psych.upenn.edu (which does not always have its power turned on, but I guess it will once I do this, if I do). Jon Baron -.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.- r-help mailing list -- Read http://www.ci.tuwien.ac.at/~hornik/R/R-FAQ.html Send "info", "help", or "[un]subscribe" (in the "body", not the subject !) To: r-help-request at stat.math.ethz.ch _._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._
On Tue, 4 Sep 2001 10:44:05 +0200 , you wrote in message <D16B18FFF743D311A9CA0090275F3CB004384841 at arcss07.arcs.ac.at>:>As nobody seems to answer my request, I simply post it again. >Is there any reason why the r-help-mailinglist should not be converted to a >newsgroup?I agree that a moderated newsgroup would be preferable to the current mailing list. The main benefit I see is that the mailing list tends to fill up my inbox, while a newsgroup is held on the server. This isn't a problem when I'm at home (I have a fast connection and my mail reader can sort things reasonably well), but when I'm travelling I have to use what's available, and often have substantial delays while it downloads dozens or hundreds of messages. The obstacles I see are mainly in terms of time: - To be useful, the mailing list should be in the main hierarchy. It takes a fair bit of time and effort to create a newsgroup there. Here is a description of the process: <http://www.faqs.org/faqs/usenet/creating-newsgroups/part1/>. Other FAQs describe various aspects of the process. - Because of spam, it would need a moderator. There is robo-moderation software, but someone needs to know how to use it and be willing to commit the time to make sure it runs smoothly. - The knowledgeable and helpful participants in the mailing list are all very busy, and have well established routines that work with the mailing list. They're likely to be unwilling to change their routines for no perceived gain, so you may have trouble finding knowledgeable participants for the newsgroup. It's also possible to set up a local mail to news gateway, so that the mailing list appears to local users at your site as a newsgroup; if you do that, please make sure that posting is only allowed from local users (or your site will become a source of spam on the mailing list). Duncan Murdoch -.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.- r-help mailing list -- Read http://www.ci.tuwien.ac.at/~hornik/R/R-FAQ.html Send "info", "help", or "[un]subscribe" (in the "body", not the subject !) To: r-help-request at stat.math.ethz.ch _._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._
[Manually approved by MM; had `majordomo buzzwords' in text] My grain of salt on this issue... I find the flow of messages coming from r-help very manageable... except probably on Monday morning :-( (too many statisticians work during the week-end!). I tend to un-subscribe from the list when I am away from my lab more than a week. Fortunately, most users put meaningful "Subject" in their messages, so that it is easy to sort the incoming messages that could be interesting, or for which I could contribute anything. Regarding the delay between queries and replies, I often receive the latter before the former. Thus, when I receive a query with no reply, I assume nobody has yet answered, and I try to do it if I can. Finally, the list archives are indeed a useful source of information. I recently needed a function to compute Moran's test and found it there (thanks to Ben Bolker). If I un-subscribe, I sometimes drop an eye on the most recent messages in the archives to see what are the recent gossips. Emmanuel Paradis -.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.- r-help mailing list -- Read http://www.ci.tuwien.ac.at/~hornik/R/R-FAQ.html Send "info", "help", or "[un]subscribe" (in the "body", not the subject !) To: r-help-request at stat.math.ethz.ch _._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._
Do you mean readline()?
readline has a 32-character limit, which you can get around as follows:
myreadline <- function(prompt="") {
cat(prompt)
readLines(n=1)
}
On Wed, 5 Sep 2001 john.janmaat at acadiau.ca wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I am using R to teach an undergraduate course in
> Econometrics. For class demonstration purposes, I plan
> to prepare my scripts and be able to step through them.
> I noticed that the built-in demo prompts for an enter
> with what looks like the scan() function, but replaces
> the n: prompt with different text. The on-line
> documention does not make it clear to me how to do
> this. Suggestions?
>
> Thanks,
>
> John.
>
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> Send "info", "help", or "[un]subscribe"
> (in the "body", not the subject !) To: r-help-request at
stat.math.ethz.ch
>
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>
--
318 Carr Hall bolker at zoo.ufl.edu
Zoology Department, University of Florida http://www.zoo.ufl.edu/bolker
Box 118525 (ph) 352-392-5697
Gainesville, FL 32611-8525 (fax) 352-392-3704
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