I''ve finally started a blog. I really didn''t want to go public with it until I was sure I keep it up, but DHH posted a entry to his blog that I feel compelled to comment on. You can read about it on my blog: http://www.bloglines.com/blog/CurtHibbs Curt
Even back when I programmed Linux systems, I used Windows at home because I play games on it. I also thought David''s posting was lame and ignorant. It didn''t have his usual thoughtfulness. On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 09:20:07 -0600, Curt Hibbs <curt-fk6st7iWb8MAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> wrote:> I''ve finally started a blog. I really didn''t want to go public with it > until I was sure I keep it up, but DHH posted a entry to his blog that I > feel compelled to comment on. > > You can read about it on my blog: > > http://www.bloglines.com/blog/CurtHibbs > > Curt > _______________________________________________ > Rails mailing list > Rails-1W37MKcQCpIf0INCOvqR/iCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org > http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails >
> I''ve finally started a blog. I really didn''t want to go public with it > until I was sure I keep it up, but DHH posted a entry to his blog that > I feel compelled to comment on.There''s no mistake. Hiring a programmer is a composite image of many things good and bad. For 37signals, it''s definitely a disadvantage to still be a Windows user. I wouldn''t say that it''s impossible, just considerably harder, to convince us that it didn''t matter too much. The choices you make as a programmer serves as indicators for your cultural standing and performance. The kind of books you read, the methodologies that you favor, the pastime projects you''re involved with, and yes, your choice of programming language and computing environment. Just like hiring someone with a declared love for Java wouldn''t make sense for 37signals, hiring someone who thinks that Windows is the best platform for open source use and development doesn''t make that much sense either. If your funds are tight, I''d see it natural that you picked a free alternative, like Linux. Naturally, this is a fairly context-dependent recommendation. If your dream job is working on C# using Visual Studio for some Microsoft shop, then of course a Windows setup is a good pick. I''m going to be a bit baffled as to why that is, but I won''t berate your choice of environment to pursue that dream. On the other hand, if you want to work with open source technologies like the Rails stack of Apache/lighttpd, MySQL/PostgreSQL, Ruby/Rails, etc, I find a strong disconnect with doing so from Windows. It''s just not a natural fit neither from a technological, cultural, or political perspective. Actively pursuing or celebrating this unnatural fit raises a red flag for me. Additionally, I don''t buy into the notion that discussion choice of computing platform is similar to discussing what color you like better or other instinctive matters. The choice is a conscious one and open for debate. P.S.: Hopefully we can keep the necessary reactions to a minimum on this off-topic. I won''t blame you for pre-empting it by already adding this topic to your ignore list ;) -- David Heinemeier Hansson, http://www.basecamphq.com/ -- Web-based Project Management http://www.rubyonrails.org/ -- Web-application framework for Ruby http://www.loudthinking.com/ -- Broadcasting Brain
> I also thought David''s posting was lame and ignorant. It didn''t have his usual thoughtfulness.Usual thoughtfulness? He has ALWAYS insulted everyone else''s technology-choices, and proclaimed that his way is the only way. I guess this time was just the first time it was about something you use. The way you''re feeling insulted in your post (http://www.bloglines.com/blog/CurtHibbs?id=3) is the way that most people using ANYTHING but Ruby and Rails feel about David''s harmful evangelism. Insulting people is bad marketing. I only learned to enjoy Rails once I learned to ignore DHH.
On Wed, 2005-03-30 at 08:06 -0800, Miles Keaton wrote:> > I also thought David''s posting was lame and ignorant. It didn''t have his usual thoughtfulness. > > Usual thoughtfulness? He has ALWAYS insulted everyone else''s > technology-choices, and proclaimed that his way is the only way. I > guess this time was just the first time it was about something you > use. > > The way you''re feeling insulted in your post > (http://www.bloglines.com/blog/CurtHibbs?id=3) is the way that most > people using ANYTHING but Ruby and Rails feel about David''s harmful > evangelism. Insulting people is bad marketing. > > I only learned to enjoy Rails once I learned to ignore DHH.Developers. Developers. Developers. Developers! -- /*************************************** * Robby Russell | Owner.Developer.Geek * PLANET ARGON | www.planetargon.com * Portland, OR | robby-/Lcn8Y7Ot69QmPsQ1CNsNQ@public.gmane.org * 503.351.4730 | blog.planetargon.com * PHP, Ruby, and PostgreSQL Development * http://www.robbyonrails.com/ ****************************************/
"hiring someone who thinks that Windows is the best platform for open source use and development doesn''t make that much sense either." Windows is not perfect. Unix/Linux is not perfect. Mac is not perfect. DHH is not perfect. I am not perfect. The world is not perfect. With that said, there is no "Best platform". It all depends on what you are comfertable with and most productive with. I''ve always had a PC and ran windows. I play games and I also use MS Word, program and design using Photoshop. I love Macs and I love the new OS X, but it never made the "switch" because I couldn''t do all those things with one single machine (mainly games). In a perfect world, MS and Apple would join efforts and create some awesome software, but I guess thats what open source is for ;-) Would I be more productive on a Mac? Probably not because I''d have to get used to it, but I''m sure once I do get used to it, I would be just as productive (not sure if I''d be MORE productive.) The same logic can be applied to using Ruby and RoR. Am I more productive with Ruby and RoR? Definitely not, because I''ve learned to develop in Java and JSP''s. I don''t even like the Ruby syntax. But you know what, I enjoy learning new things and trying out new things. I will definitely give Ruby and RoR a chance because I like Rails'' simplicity and its ability to make a complex task simple. I will give the Mac a try because its just like a new toy and I''m sure I will learn new ways (or maybe even better ways) of doing things. Its always good to learn something new. With that said.. since I am a PC/Win user and I AM willing to give the Mac and RoR a try, that just makes me that much of a BETTER programmer. Because now, not only do I know Java/JSP, PC/Win, but I will also have learned Ruby/RoR and the use of the Mac. In my opinion I have more tools under my belt which gives me the aiblity to do more and choose the right tool for my job/project. Do I think DHH''s comment was childish or ignorant? No, not really. Everyone has their own opinion and I respect his. I understand his passion for his environment and what makes him do his job better. Does his comment insult me in any way? Not in the slightest, because I personally take it the same way I take any other "opinionated" comment. To me it just means that this person is very passionate about something and he is trying to advocate his idealism to others. Ultimately, it is up to you to decide what you want to do. Don''t be upset at DHH, but rather try out his recommendation for yourself (if you can and have the budget to) and decide by yourself. The fact that he says 37signals will not hire someone who doesn''t use a mac doesn''t insult me either. Their company has cetain standars and tools that they abide by and use and they prefer their employees to use the same tools. Its understandable. I just view it as a required "skill" that I need to add to my resume to be considered by 37signals :-) But enough of that, this is getting way too long. Why don''t we change the subject now? :-) On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 18:03:39 +0200, David Heinemeier Hansson <david-OiTZALl8rpK0mm7Ywyx6yg@public.gmane.org> wrote:> > I''ve finally started a blog. I really didn''t want to go public with it > > until I was sure I keep it up, but DHH posted a entry to his blog that > > I feel compelled to comment on. > > There''s no mistake. Hiring a programmer is a composite image of many > things good and bad. For 37signals, it''s definitely a disadvantage to > still be a Windows user. I wouldn''t say that it''s impossible, just > considerably harder, to convince us that it didn''t matter too much. > > The choices you make as a programmer serves as indicators for your > cultural standing and performance. The kind of books you read, the > methodologies that you favor, the pastime projects you''re involved > with, and yes, your choice of programming language and computing > environment. > > Just like hiring someone with a declared love for Java wouldn''t make > sense for 37signals, hiring someone who thinks that Windows is the best > platform for open source use and development doesn''t make that much > sense either. > > If your funds are tight, I''d see it natural that you picked a free > alternative, like Linux. > > Naturally, this is a fairly context-dependent recommendation. If your > dream job is working on C# using Visual Studio for some Microsoft shop, > then of course a Windows setup is a good pick. I''m going to be a bit > baffled as to why that is, but I won''t berate your choice of > environment to pursue that dream. > > On the other hand, if you want to work with open source technologies > like the Rails stack of Apache/lighttpd, MySQL/PostgreSQL, Ruby/Rails, > etc, I find a strong disconnect with doing so from Windows. It''s just > not a natural fit neither from a technological, cultural, or political > perspective. Actively pursuing or celebrating this unnatural fit raises > a red flag for me. > > Additionally, I don''t buy into the notion that discussion choice of > computing platform is similar to discussing what color you like better > or other instinctive matters. The choice is a conscious one and open > for debate. > > P.S.: Hopefully we can keep the necessary reactions to a minimum on > this off-topic. I won''t blame you for pre-empting it by already adding > this topic to your ignore list ;) > -- > David Heinemeier Hansson, > http://www.basecamphq.com/ -- Web-based Project Management > http://www.rubyonrails.org/ -- Web-application framework for Ruby > http://www.loudthinking.com/ -- Broadcasting Brain > > _______________________________________________ > Rails mailing list > Rails-1W37MKcQCpIf0INCOvqR/iCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org > http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails >-- - Ramin
Heya :)> -----Original Message----- > From: rails-bounces-1W37MKcQCpIf0INCOvqR/iCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org [mailto:rails- > bounces-1W37MKcQCpIf0INCOvqR/iCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Steve Willer > Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 10:44 AM > To: curt-fk6st7iWb8MAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org; rails-1W37MKcQCpIf0INCOvqR/iCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org > Cc: ruby-talk ML > Subject: Re: [Rails] Respect and Disappointment > > Even back when I programmed Linux systems, I used Windows at home > because I play games on it.I mean really... why would I want to run a fast, stable operating system (XP) that supports all they best commodity hardware and has the widest selection of tools available for it (XP) while being used by 90+ percent of my potential clients (Windows vartiants). Bad programmer, what a fool I am :) Soulhuntre ---------- http://www.girl2.com - my girls http://www.the-estate.com - my legacy http://wiki.thegreybook.com - my project http://weblog.soulhuntre.com - my thoughts
On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 09:20:07 -0600, Curt Hibbs <curt-fk6st7iWb8MAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> wrote:> I''ve finally started a blog. I really didn''t want to go public with it > until I was sure I keep it up, but DHH posted a entry to his blog that I > feel compelled to comment on. > > You can read about it on my blog: > > http://www.bloglines.com/blog/CurtHibbsHey Curt, you definitly need comment support :) Anyway, I agree with you. I couldn''t believe what I read in DHH''s post when I read it earlier today. Statements like "If you don''t care enough about your tools to get the best, your burden of proof just got a lot heavier." are silly and pointless. At the end of the day the most important thing is whether or not I get the work done. It doesn''t matter on which OS I do it, or with what development editor I use. I do care about what tools I use and pick the ones that get the job best done for me. If I was doing Java work, I use Eclipse on Windows because it works best on that platform. I could use Intellij but I don''t have the money to fork out for it for myself and Eclipse meets my needs. If I''m using Ruby I might use Linux or I might use Windows and write code with either Vim or Scite (or occasionally Arachno Ruby). Mac''s until this year weren''t cheap and as a home user, games player and developer there is no way I can justify spending the money on it. It would meet no need that either a linux box & windows box couldn''t fill for me. So I run a Linux machine and a Windows machine, both get used for dev purposes and general server purposes and the Windows box as a games machine. I''d rather be comfortable in any OS than a zealot about one! Rob
On Wed, 2005-03-30 at 18:04 +0100, Robert McGovern wrote:> On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 09:20:07 -0600, Curt Hibbs <curt-fk6st7iWb8MAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> wrote: > > I''ve finally started a blog. I really didn''t want to go public with > it > > until I was sure I keep it up, but DHH posted a entry to his blog > that I > > feel compelled to comment on. > > > > You can read about it on my blog: > > > > http://www.bloglines.com/blog/CurtHibbs > > Hey Curt, you definitly need comment support :)I second that! :-) -Robby -- /*************************************** * Robby Russell | Owner.Developer.Geek * PLANET ARGON | www.planetargon.com * Portland, OR | robby-/Lcn8Y7Ot69QmPsQ1CNsNQ@public.gmane.org * 503.351.4730 | blog.planetargon.com * PHP, Ruby, and PostgreSQL Development * http://www.robbyonrails.com/ ****************************************/
Geez, everyone is getting so defensive. David wouldn''t hire you to work at 37signals because you have a different opinion/reasons for selecting a platform to work on? Who cares? On the other hand, if you think that the experience of living on a mac is comprable to the experience of XP, you really should honestly try living on a mac for a month or so. Everything is designed -- from interoperable software to hardware -- on such a higher level you''ll wonder how the rest of the world limps along. My MacPlus from 1985 still boots and runs without zero hardware issues in the last ~20 years. YMMV, but I''ve never heard of anyone switching back unless there was some pressing external need. (i.e. gaming or company policy.) -w On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 11:48:56 -0500, Soulhuntre <soulhuntre-xtZVmrYH4z1ZroRs9YW3xA@public.gmane.org> wrote:> Heya :) > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: rails-bounces-1W37MKcQCpIf0INCOvqR/iCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org [mailto:rails- > > bounces-1W37MKcQCpIf0INCOvqR/iCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Steve Willer > > Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 10:44 AM > > To: curt-fk6st7iWb8MAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org; rails-1W37MKcQCpIf0INCOvqR/iCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org > > Cc: ruby-talk ML > > Subject: Re: [Rails] Respect and Disappointment > > > > Even back when I programmed Linux systems, I used Windows at home > > because I play games on it. > > I mean really... why would I want to run a fast, stable operating system > (XP) that supports all they best commodity hardware and has the widest > selection of tools available for it (XP) while being used by 90+ percent of > my potential clients (Windows vartiants). > > Bad programmer, what a fool I am :) > > Soulhuntre > ---------- > > http://www.girl2.com - my girls > http://www.the-estate.com - my legacy > http://wiki.thegreybook.com - my project > http://weblog.soulhuntre.com - my thoughts > > > _______________________________________________ > Rails mailing list > Rails-1W37MKcQCpIf0INCOvqR/iCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org > http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails >-- Will Schenk http://www.sublimeguile.com http://www.myelinate.com
* Will Schenk [2005-03-30 12:13]:> On the other hand, if you think that the experience of living on a mac > is comprable to the experience of XP, you really should honestly try > living on a mac for a month or so. Everything is designed -- fromThat''d be a tough month if you ever needed to work with Java 1.5 ;-) Personally I haven''t, so me Mac is fine, but Apple''s (perhaps unavoidable?) lag on Java seems to me a big drawback for the many developers out there using it. Obviously not an issue for those using RoR or other opensource langs which work just dandy on the FreeBSD/OS X, but a barrier to interested Java fans. -- ______________________________ toddgrimason*todd-AT-slack.net
On Wed, 30 Mar 2005, Miles Keaton wrote:> Usual thoughtfulness? He has ALWAYS insulted everyone else''s > technology-choices, and proclaimed that his way is the only way. I > guess this time was just the first time it was about something you > use.David is young and passionate. If he wasn''t, Rails probably wouldn''t have happened. Deal with it. -- Matt Nothing great was ever accomplished without _passion_
So are we saying that if I turned up for an interview at 37signals and mentioned I usually programmed on Windows, I would be less likely to get a job than a Mac programmer? I would hope that my programming experience, personality, commitment etc. would all count much more highly than my preference for on GUI over another. Same as if I was disabled, or black, or a woman etc. Personally I work on Windows because like 99% of all corporates that''s what they pay you to work on, and wouldn''t be too pleased if you worked on a machine not protected by their preferred anti-virus s/w! At home, I still have to boot into Windows so my wife can run her incredimail. But I boot over to a tuned 64-bit SUSE for a bit of fun when the kids are in bed ;o) On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 11:31:30 -0600 (CST), Matt Lawrence <matt-CF4zE0UlzxDX60BBzNFzbQ@public.gmane.org> wrote:> On Wed, 30 Mar 2005, Miles Keaton wrote: > > > Usual thoughtfulness? He has ALWAYS insulted everyone else''s > > technology-choices, and proclaimed that his way is the only way. I > > guess this time was just the first time it was about something you > > use. > > David is young and passionate. If he wasn''t, Rails probably wouldn''t have > happened. Deal with it. > > -- Matt > Nothing great was ever accomplished without _passion_ > > _______________________________________________ > Rails mailing list > Rails-1W37MKcQCpIf0INCOvqR/iCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org > http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails >
"Personally I work on Windows because like 99% of all corporates that''s what they pay you to work on" I guess thats exactly the point DHH was trying to get across.. He considers 37signals and himself as part of that 1% that is different (or better?). I dont agree OR disagree with this point of view, because thats all it is, a point of view. He (and the rest of that 1%) might be on to something we don''t know about, who knows.. I''d sure be willing to give it a try and see how I feel about it. So again, no harm done IMHO. Its good to be passionte about something you believe in. I don''t think he directly meant to insult anyone. On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 18:39:49 +0100, Glenn Smith <glenn.rails-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> wrote:> So are we saying that if I turned up for an interview at 37signals and > mentioned I usually programmed on Windows, I would be less likely to > get a job than a Mac programmer? I would hope that my programming > experience, personality, commitment etc. would all count much more > highly than my preference for on GUI over another. Same as if I was > disabled, or black, or a woman etc. > > Personally I work on Windows because like 99% of all corporates that''s > what they pay you to work on, and wouldn''t be too pleased if you > worked on a machine not protected by their preferred anti-virus s/w! > > At home, I still have to boot into Windows so my wife can run her incredimail. > > But I boot over to a tuned 64-bit SUSE for a bit of fun when the kids > are in bed ;o) > > On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 11:31:30 -0600 (CST), Matt Lawrence > <matt-CF4zE0UlzxDX60BBzNFzbQ@public.gmane.org> wrote: > > On Wed, 30 Mar 2005, Miles Keaton wrote: > > > > > Usual thoughtfulness? He has ALWAYS insulted everyone else''s > > > technology-choices, and proclaimed that his way is the only way. I > > > guess this time was just the first time it was about something you > > > use. > > > > David is young and passionate. If he wasn''t, Rails probably wouldn''t have > > happened. Deal with it. > > > > -- Matt > > Nothing great was ever accomplished without _passion_ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rails mailing list > > Rails-1W37MKcQCpIf0INCOvqR/iCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org > > http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails > > > _______________________________________________ > Rails mailing list > Rails-1W37MKcQCpIf0INCOvqR/iCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org > http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails >-- - Ramin
Gosling using a PowerBook[1], so I guess it''s ok for java work too. ;) I take your point tho, aparently he SSH''s and then xterms back from a Solaris box to do 1.5 stuff. http://www.apple.com/pro/science/gosling/ On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 12:17:23 -0500, Todd Grimason <todd-cwT7Wi5Y1r1eoWH0uzbU5w@public.gmane.org> wrote:> * Will Schenk [2005-03-30 12:13]: > > > On the other hand, if you think that the experience of living on a mac > > is comprable to the experience of XP, you really should honestly try > > living on a mac for a month or so. Everything is designed -- from > > That''d be a tough month if you ever needed to work with Java 1.5 ;-) > Personally I haven''t, so me Mac is fine, but Apple''s (perhaps > unavoidable?) lag on Java seems to me a big drawback for the many > developers out there using it. > > Obviously not an issue for those using RoR or other opensource langs > which work just dandy on the FreeBSD/OS X, but a barrier to interested > Java fans. > > -- > > ______________________________ > toddgrimason*todd-AT-slack.net > > _______________________________________________ > Rails mailing list > Rails-1W37MKcQCpIf0INCOvqR/iCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org > http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails >-- Will Schenk http://www.sublimeguile.com http://www.myelinate.com
On Wed, 30 Mar 2005, Matt Lawrence wrote:> On Wed, 30 Mar 2005, Miles Keaton wrote: > >> Usual thoughtfulness? He has ALWAYS insulted everyone else''s >> technology-choices, and proclaimed that his way is the only way. I >> guess this time was just the first time it was about something you >> use. > > David is young and passionate. If he wasn''t, Rails probably wouldn''t have > happened. Deal with it.well said. it always astounds me when people complain about any aspect of free software - including the developer behind it. if any of you think DHH is off the wall you should check out D.J. Berstein''s site at http://cr.yp.to/djb.html. if you a unaware he''s written such legendary peices of software as qmail and cdb. on his site you''ll find friendly advice on contacting him like: You can send me email at djb-s5ceAifWPvU@public.gmane.org; I might respond within a few months. But please don''t send me email of the following types: * qmail support questions. See the documentation. * djbdns support questions. See the documentation. * RA applications. You have to go through MSCS. compare that to DHH''s approach which, like it or hate it, is both honest and available. 2cts. -a -- ==============================================================================| email :: ara [dot] t [dot] howard [at] noaa [dot] gov | phone :: 303.497.6469 | if you love the sacred and despise the ordinary, you are still bobbing in the | ocean of delusion. --lin-chi ===============================================================================
The exact opposite of what you are implying happened to me. I started off as a contractor (wielding my own PowerBook) only to be greeted by developers making crucifixes with their fingers when I setup my machine for the day. I basically had to prove that I was able to work in that environment and be more productive. Once it was actually shown that I was more productive than other developers using unsupported tools that the other 99% of the team didn''t use (or even have available to them), they started buying Macs. Incidentally, the rest of the development team has now been laid off and I am last man standing. Take no comfort in running with the majority. -j On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 18:39:49 +0100, Glenn Smith <glenn.rails-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> wrote:> So are we saying that if I turned up for an interview at 37signals and > mentioned I usually programmed on Windows, I would be less likely to > get a job than a Mac programmer? I would hope that my programming > experience, personality, commitment etc. would all count much more > highly than my preference for on GUI over another. Same as if I was > disabled, or black, or a woman etc. > > Personally I work on Windows because like 99% of all corporates that''s > what they pay you to work on, and wouldn''t be too pleased if you > worked on a machine not protected by their preferred anti-virus s/w! > > At home, I still have to boot into Windows so my wife can run her incredimail. > > But I boot over to a tuned 64-bit SUSE for a bit of fun when the kids > are in bed ;o) > > On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 11:31:30 -0600 (CST), Matt Lawrence > <matt-CF4zE0UlzxDX60BBzNFzbQ@public.gmane.org> wrote: > > On Wed, 30 Mar 2005, Miles Keaton wrote: > > > > > Usual thoughtfulness? He has ALWAYS insulted everyone else''s > > > technology-choices, and proclaimed that his way is the only way. I > > > guess this time was just the first time it was about something you > > > use. > > > > David is young and passionate. If he wasn''t, Rails probably wouldn''t have > > happened. Deal with it. > > > > -- Matt > > Nothing great was ever accomplished without _passion_ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rails mailing list > > Rails-1W37MKcQCpIf0INCOvqR/iCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org > > http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails > > > _______________________________________________ > Rails mailing list > Rails-1W37MKcQCpIf0INCOvqR/iCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org > http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails >
On Mar 30, 2005, at 2:28 PM, John Carlin wrote:> The exact opposite of what you are implying happened to me. I started > off as a contractor (wielding my own PowerBook) only to be greeted by > developers making crucifixes with their fingers when I setup my > machine for the day. I basically had to prove that I was able to work > in that environment and be more productive. Once it was actually shown > that I was more productive than other developers using unsupported > tools that the other 99% of the team didn''t use (or even have > available to them), they started buying Macs. Incidentally, the rest > of the development team has now been laid off and I am last man > standing. Take no comfort in running with the majority. > > -jI love this story. -Scott _______________________________________________ Rails mailing list Rails-1W37MKcQCpIf0INCOvqR/iCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
Hi! Oh man, I wish this would happen for me as well. Be the end of march our small company will merge with a larger company. Before it was no problem to use Linux or MacOS X (as me) for development. But yesterday I learned that most of the administrators of the new company are Windows-Administrators. And they told us that anything but Windows is not allowed. Now I am forced to develop on Windows only though I am so more productive on unix for I know my tools. Not to speak about Outlook. Yeah, yeah, managers love to send "invitations". On the other hand that''s very common for most German larger companies. In corporate enviroments alternatives such as Mac or Linux are practically nonexistent. Regards, Lars Am 30.03.2005 um 21:28 schrieb John Carlin:> The exact opposite of what you are implying happened to me. I started > off as a contractor (wielding my own PowerBook) only to be greeted by > developers making crucifixes with their fingers when I setup my > machine for the day. I basically had to prove that I was able to work > in that environment and be more productive. Once it was actually shown > that I was more productive than other developers using unsupported > tools that the other 99% of the team didn''t use (or even have > available to them), they started buying Macs. Incidentally, the rest > of the development team has now been laid off and I am last man > standing. Take no comfort in running with the majority. > > -j > > > On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 18:39:49 +0100, Glenn Smith > <glenn.rails-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> wrote: >> So are we saying that if I turned up for an interview at 37signals and >> mentioned I usually programmed on Windows, I would be less likely to >> get a job than a Mac programmer? I would hope that my programming >> experience, personality, commitment etc. would all count much more >> highly than my preference for on GUI over another. Same as if I was >> disabled, or black, or a woman etc. >> >> Personally I work on Windows because like 99% of all corporates that''s >> what they pay you to work on, and wouldn''t be too pleased if you >> worked on a machine not protected by their preferred anti-virus s/w! >> >> At home, I still have to boot into Windows so my wife can run her >> incredimail. >> >> But I boot over to a tuned 64-bit SUSE for a bit of fun when the kids >> are in bed ;o) >> >> On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 11:31:30 -0600 (CST), Matt Lawrence >> <matt-CF4zE0UlzxDX60BBzNFzbQ@public.gmane.org> wrote: >>> On Wed, 30 Mar 2005, Miles Keaton wrote: >>> >>>> Usual thoughtfulness? He has ALWAYS insulted everyone else''s >>>> technology-choices, and proclaimed that his way is the only way. I >>>> guess this time was just the first time it was about something you >>>> use. >>> >>> David is young and passionate. If he wasn''t, Rails probably >>> wouldn''t have >>> happened. Deal with it. >>> >>> -- Matt >>> Nothing great was ever accomplished without _passion_ >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Rails mailing list >>> Rails-1W37MKcQCpIf0INCOvqR/iCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org >>> http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Rails mailing list >> Rails-1W37MKcQCpIf0INCOvqR/iCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org >> http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails >> > _______________________________________________ > Rails mailing list > Rails-1W37MKcQCpIf0INCOvqR/iCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org > http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails > >-- "Stil ist die Fähigkeit, komplizierte Dinge einfach zu sagen - nicht umgekehrt." -- Cocteau, Jean
On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 12:06:07 -0700 (MST), Ara.T.Howard <Ara.T.Howard-32lpuo7BZBA@public.gmane.org> wrote:> > David is young and passionate. If he wasn''t, Rails probably wouldn''t have > > happened. Deal with it. > > well said. it always astounds me when people complain about any aspect of free > software - including the developer behind it.This is not a matter of complaining about something free. I think it''s fair to call people out when they are being jerks, no matter what great things they''ve done. I''m sure David''s personality has a lot to do with Rails'' success, but posts like this are going to turn a lot of people away from Rails, too. The message prospective Rails developers get from posts like this is that if you don''t choose the same tools we do, we don''t want you in the community. That''s not the message I want to send. -dave
If you are a web "designer" (not developer), would you want someone who uses MS Frontpage or some other WYSIWYG tool to be a part of your "community" or team? I think not. I mean the OS that you use isn''t as important as DHH makes it, because a text editor is a text editor, no matter what OS its run on, but I think he was talking more about the "attitude" of the people who just don''t care what they use as long as it gets done. He may have been a little harsh or maybe his words didn''t come out right, but I would have to agree with him a little bit. To me, it doesn''t matter what OS you use, but you need to be using the proper tools, and if you him the proper tool extends to the OS, then thats fine. On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 08:46:13 -0600, David Adams <daveadams-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> wrote:> On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 12:06:07 -0700 (MST), Ara.T.Howard > <Ara.T.Howard-32lpuo7BZBA@public.gmane.org> wrote: > > > David is young and passionate. If he wasn''t, Rails probably wouldn''t have > > > happened. Deal with it. > > > > well said. it always astounds me when people complain about any aspect of free > > software - including the developer behind it. > > This is not a matter of complaining about something free. I think it''s > fair to call people out when they are being jerks, no matter what > great things they''ve done. I''m sure David''s personality has a lot to > do with Rails'' success, but posts like this are going to turn a lot of > people away from Rails, too. The message prospective Rails developers > get from posts like this is that if you don''t choose the same tools we > do, we don''t want you in the community. That''s not the message I want > to send. > > -dave > _______________________________________________ > Rails mailing list > Rails-1W37MKcQCpIf0INCOvqR/iCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org > http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails >-- - Ramin
Ramin wrote:> > He may have been a little harsh or maybe his words didn''t come out > right, but I would have to agree with him a little bit. To me, it > doesn''t matter what OS you use, but you need to be using the proper > tools, and if you him the proper tool extends to the OS, then thats > fine.The statement "He may have been a little harsh or maybe his words didn''t come out right" is precisely what I was hoping to be the case, and was the main reason I made the original post (otherwise I would have to feel personally offended).
My take on this, being an outsider, is that perhaps he was really describing the culture he wants at his company. Suggesting that PC users don''t have an even chance at getting a job (at his company) is reasonable if it''s because he likes a particular culture. It''s not much different from when I worked at a game company. No matter how good a programmer an applicant was, if they weren''t an avid gamer, they wouldn''t fit in, and thus they weren''t a good match. And all that aside, it''s a well known fact that Jobs'' Reality Distortion Field ( http://www.answers.com/topic/reality-distortion-field-1 ) can sometimes expand through Macs to envelope their users. It has been known to cause Mac users to accept no possibility for success that does not include Apple :) Love or hate the strong opinions of people who do useful things, but don''t let that stop you from taking advantage of their contributions :) On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 09:52:03 -0600, Curt Hibbs <curt-fk6st7iWb8MAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> wrote:> Ramin wrote: > > > > He may have been a little harsh or maybe his words didn''t come out > > right, but I would have to agree with him a little bit. To me, it > > doesn''t matter what OS you use, but you need to be using the proper > > tools, and if you him the proper tool extends to the OS, then thats > > fine. > > The statement "He may have been a little harsh or maybe his words didn''t > come out right" is precisely what I was hoping to be the case, and was > the main reason I made the original post (otherwise I would have to feel > personally offended). > _______________________________________________ > Rails mailing list > Rails-1W37MKcQCpIf0INCOvqR/iCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org > http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails >
Any Mac user getting to a certain position sometimes feels the urge to order others to be happy. It rarely works but when it does people indeed become happy. Somehow. To me it seems (also reading other postings on the topic - "Windows Administrators", "Outlook invitations" and such) that Mac is about as far ''anti-enterprise'' and ''anti-corporate'' as it can be. "Yes baby, I am allowed to change my desktop picture and I will". This is quite aligned to the spirit of Rails so this is not a surprise to me that it was raised. The manner that it was raised in is also quite normal for a blog of one person expressing opinions. So I second Matt on this one. BTW: "Windows Administrators" tend to get very gentle and soft if you don''t ask them stupid questions, do your thing and drink a beer or two with them in the afterhours. Any escape from the "corporate and enterprise" everything helps. On 30-mrt-05, at 19:31, Matt Lawrence wrote:> On Wed, 30 Mar 2005, Miles Keaton wrote: > >> Usual thoughtfulness? He has ALWAYS insulted everyone else''s >> technology-choices, and proclaimed that his way is the only way. I >> guess this time was just the first time it was about something you >> use. > > David is young and passionate. If he wasn''t, Rails probably wouldn''t > have happened. Deal with it. >-- Julian "Julik" Tarkhanov
Michael Teter wrote:> My take on this, being an outsider, is that perhaps he was really > describing the culture he wants at his company.That''s my take on it as well. It would be nice if he was to just say so, but that''s not his personality type. Such is life...> Suggesting that PC users don''t have an even chance at getting a job > (at his company) is reasonable if it''s because he likes a particular > culture. It''s not much different from when I worked at a game > company. No matter how good a programmer an applicant was, if they > weren''t an avid gamer, they wouldn''t fit in, and thus they weren''t a > good match. > > And all that aside, it''s a well known fact that Jobs'' Reality > Distortion Field ( > http://www.answers.com/topic/reality-distortion-field-1 ) can > sometimes expand through Macs to envelope their users. It has been > known to cause Mac users to accept no possibility for success that > does not include Apple :) > > Love or hate the strong opinions of people who do useful things, but > don''t let that stop you from taking advantage of their contributions > :)Agreed... on all points! Curt> On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 09:52:03 -0600, Curt Hibbs <curt-fk6st7iWb8MAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> wrote: > >>Ramin wrote: >> >>>He may have been a little harsh or maybe his words didn''t come out >>>right, but I would have to agree with him a little bit. To me, it >>>doesn''t matter what OS you use, but you need to be using the proper >>>tools, and if you him the proper tool extends to the OS, then thats >>>fine. >> >>The statement "He may have been a little harsh or maybe his words didn''t >>come out right" is precisely what I was hoping to be the case, and was >>the main reason I made the original post (otherwise I would have to feel >>personally offended). >>_______________________________________________ >>Rails mailing list >>Rails-1W37MKcQCpIf0INCOvqR/iCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org >>http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails >> > >
That''s from my heart :-) -- Ing. Josef Pospisil On 31.3.2005, at 19:00, Julian ''Julik'' Tarkhanov wrote:> Any Mac user getting to a certain position sometimes feels the urge to > order others to be happy. It rarely works but when it does people > indeed become happy. Somehow.
Heya :)> -----Original Message----- > From: rails-bounces-1W37MKcQCpIf0INCOvqR/iCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org [mailto:rails- > bounces-1W37MKcQCpIf0INCOvqR/iCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Will Schenk > Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 12:11 PM > To: rails-1W37MKcQCpIf0INCOvqR/iCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org > Subject: Re: [Rails] Respect and Disappointment > > Geez, everyone is getting so defensive. David wouldn''t hire you to > work at 37signals because you have a different opinion/reasons for > selecting a platform to work on? Who cares?I don''t particularly. And if it was just a matter of personal preference and/or corporate culture it wouldn''t be worth commenting on - platform bigotry is so rampant these days it''s just a sad fact of life. However, if we want Rails to be taken seriously in the long term then a little less rhetoric would be useful. The simplistic assertion that the Mac is obviously and always the "best" platform or tool shows a degree of narrow thinking that make syou wonder about the design decisions behind Rails.> On the other hand, if you think that the experience of living on a mac > is comprable to the experience of XP, you really should honestly try > living on a mac for a month or so.Been there, done that, do it every day. The assumption that anyone who doesn''t love your platform of choice has never tried it is a common fallacy.> Everything is designed -- from > interoperable software to hardware -- on such a higher level you''ll > wonder how the rest of the world limps along.And it is this sort of comment that makes it hard to take people seriously in the technology world.> My MacPlus from 1985 > still boots and runs without zero hardware issues in the last ~20 > years. YMMV, but I''ve never heard of anyone switching back unless > there was some pressing external need. (i.e. gaming or company > policy.)There are lots and lots of people who use XP and commodity PC''s who known Macs and who use them all the time. It actually is possible to see the advantages of each platform in any given situation you know :) Soulhuntre ---------- http://www.girl2.com - my girls http://www.the-estate.com - my legacy http://wiki.thegreybook.com - my project http://weblog.soulhuntre.com - my thoughts
* Soulhuntre (soulhuntre-xtZVmrYH4z1ZroRs9YW3xA@public.gmane.org) [050402 01:39]:> However, if we want Rails to be taken seriously in the long term then a > little less rhetoric would be useful. The simplistic assertion that the Mac > is obviously and always the "best" platform or tool shows a degree of narrow > thinking that make syou wonder about the design decisions behind Rails.Conversely, having suffered through an eerily similar set of experiences with non-Rails frameworks (and self-written frameworks) in multiple languages that DHH recounts in the long movie on the site, and seeing the wisdom and clarity of the Rails design, I wonder if he''s not also correct on this particular issue as well. Finding 7 years ago that I no longer needed Windows in my life (and watching my blood pressure, free time, and wallet all thank me), I''m inclined to believe he is. And I''m not even a Mac user. ;-) Seriously, though, I think part of the reality is that people who don''t understand why someone like DHH would say what he said in his weblog post would be, by definition, at least lying out in the penumbra of doubt if they were to come in for an interview at 37signals (or any similar shop). They live in a different world than the people 37signals would hire quickly, which is exactly the point being made. That''s not saying it makes someone better or worse than someone else, it''s just that people live in different worlds, and from time to time someone points out that the different worlds exist. No reason to be upset: if a person doesn''t want desperately to work for an outfit like 37signals then they''re probably doing different things to work in a good place in their world (or doing something completely different than "working" in their world); while if that person does want to work at a 37signals-type outfit, then they''ve just gotten constructive advice on what they need to do to qualify. Far from being a reason for animosity, DHH''s statement is either a confirmation of the different *valid* choices people make, /or/ it''s advice about how to capitalize on your one particular choice. Each reader knows which should apply. Best, Rick -- http://www.rickbradley.com MUPRN: 813 | non-confidential." random email haiku | --from 2Wire Disclaimer just thought | I''d point that one out...
Heya :)> -----Original Message----- > From: rails-bounces-1W37MKcQCpIf0INCOvqR/iCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org [mailto:rails- > bounces-1W37MKcQCpIf0INCOvqR/iCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Rick Bradley > Sent: Saturday, April 02, 2005 1:52 AM > To: rails-1W37MKcQCpIf0INCOvqR/iCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org > Subject: Re: [Rails] Respect and Disappointment > > Seriously, though, I think part of the reality is that people who don''t > understand why someone like DHH would say what he said in his weblog > post would be, by definition, at least lying out in the penumbra of > doubt if they were to come in for an interview at 37signals (or any > similar shop). They live in a different world than the people 37signals > would hire quickly, which is exactly the point being made.Of course, and that point I support entirely. For similar reasons I wouldn''t hire anyone who was an anti-MS bigot (there is too much tasty goodness in .NET to ignore) nor would I hire someone who couldn''t handle that our graphics shop does a fair amount of 3d "pin up" work. Saying "anyone who doesn''t choose a Mac would be someone who would be a bad fit for US" is a completely reasonable one. Saying (effectively) "anyone who doesn''t feel as I do is obviously too stupid to hire" is a bit insulting.> "working" in their world); while if that person does want to work at a > 37signals-type outfit, then they''ve just gotten constructive advice on > what they need to do to qualify.I am curious what a "37signals" type company is, and why that type of company would imply a Mac shop. Everything they actually DO can be done on other platforms... I see nothing special about a type of business and using a Mac. Soulhuntre ---------- http://www.girl2.com - my girls http://www.the-estate.com - my legacy http://wiki.thegreybook.com - my project http://weblog.soulhuntre.com - my thoughts
> I am curious what a "37signals" type company is, and why that type of > company would imply a Mac shop. Everything they actually DO can be done on > other platforms... I see nothing special about a type of business and using > a Mac.How is it possible to be passionate about simple effective and elegant design solutions (both in code and aesthetics) while working on an OS that is the exact _opposite_ of that? How is it possible to strive for excellence in your designs (again, both in code and aesthetics), without caring about the design of the tools you use every day? Tomas
On Apr 02, 2005, at 14:28, Tomas Jogin wrote:> How is it possible to be passionate about simple effective and elegant > design solutions (both in code and aesthetics) while working on an OS > that is the exact _opposite_ of that? How is it possible to strive for > excellence in your designs (again, both in code and aesthetics), > without caring about the design of the tools you use every day?Perhaps by getting a life instead of following a cult? http://www.gizmodo.com/gadgets/images/iProduct.gif http://www.davidmccandless.com/funny/applestore.htm Cheers -- PA, Onnay Equitursay http://alt.textdrive.com/
On Apr 02, 2005, at 14:28, Tomas Jogin wrote:> How is it possible to be passionate about simple effective and elegant > design solutionshttp://playboy.com/features/features/ibod/ Cheers -- PA, Onnay Equitursay http://alt.textdrive.com/
PA wrote:> http://www.davidmccandless.com/funny/applestore.htmDude. I totally want an iRug. Where can I get one ? ;-)
On Apr 02, 2005, at 15:19, Stanislav Freidin wrote:>> http://www.davidmccandless.com/funny/applestore.htm > > Dude. I totally want an iRug. Where can I get one ? > ;-)For the discerning buyer only: http://www.shopshorthills.com/ Cheers -- PA, Onnay Equitursay http://alt.textdrive.com/
> > How is it possible to be passionate about simple effective and elegant > > design solutions (both in code and aesthetics) while working on an OS > > that is the exact _opposite_ of that? How is it possible to strive for > > excellence in your designs (again, both in code and aesthetics), > > without caring about the design of the tools you use every day? > > Perhaps by getting a life instead of following a cult?I''m not sure i follow.. do you mean that in order to appreciate, or even recognize, good design, you must follow a cult? Or perhaps you just couldn''t think of a better argument than that?
On Apr 2, 2005 7:28 AM, Tomas Jogin <tomasj-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> wrote:> > How is it possible to be passionate about simple effective and elegant > design solutions (both in code and aesthetics) while working on an OS > that is the exact _opposite_ of that?Replace "an OS" with "a room", "a company", "a city", "a state", "a country", "a world"... and you''ll see that it''s done every day. dunno how we do it, but we manage to. -- Bill Guindon (aka aGorilla)