asterisk users - Feb 2007 - To use asterisk or proprietary hardware, that is the question

Hi there,

Here is my dilema.  I have a new small business customer that wants me to
put in a VoIP phone system for them.  Based on their requirements, I have
determined that it needs to be a "set it and forget it" type of thing
like a
lot of small business proprietary systems.  

At the same time they would like to be able to do minor dial plan changes
themselves so I have determine that a GUI like FreePBX or similar
alternative (free or commercial) is appropriate.

I have some concerns about using Asterisk for this. As much as I am in
support of the whole Asterisk revolution, I just do not feel confident
enough in Asterisk on a Hard Drive as a "set it and forget it" setup
running
month after month, year after year.  I am hoping someone can convince me
otherwise.  I'm concerned about hard drive corruptions/failures, memory
leaks, software bugs etc.  I have the budget to buy good quality hardware so
if I was to go with Asterisk I would go industrial grade fanless computer,
power conditioned UPS etc.  I am not concerned about the reliability of most
of the hardware.  It's the hard drive and the software that runs on it that
worries me.  I will obviously use a mature stable Asterisk release and the
most stable Linux version which I won't bother naming just to keep the
discussion focussed.

I have other Asterisk installs that went well but they were in environments
where there were IT people around who were prepared to deal with some Linux
administration and I could provide ongoing support for more major things.
That is not the case here.  Some of those sites have been running for months
untouched, some needed some updates and reboots for various issues.  I don't
think this customer would look very favorably on me having to come in and
add patches or have to reboot once a month or whatever.  Their expection is
the same as they would have with any other phone system that mounts on the
wall and "just works" for years.  I think that is a reasonable
expectation.

I am looking at putting in an Epygi proprietary VoIP system in instead.  It
is mostly hardware based although apparently runs Linux.  It has a GUI, is
supposedly plug and play most of the time, and most importantly, does not
use a Hard Drive.  I have heard good things about them so for arguments
sake, let's assume voice quality, features, and the enduser experience are
approximately the same as using an Asterisk/Analog FXO Card/hardware echo
cancel solution.  Flexibility, scalability, upgradeability are non-issues
because the requirements are fixed.  The Eqygi will end up costing a few
hundred dollars more but for arguments sake let's assume cost's are
approximately the same.

Astlinux would work except it does not currently meet some key requirements
(GUI, Sangoma Analog card support).  Otherwise it would be a GREAT
distribution for "set it and forget it" running without a Hard Drive
IMHO.

Anyways, I am hoping I can get enough positive feedback about "set it and
forget it" experiences to convince me to use Asterisk/FreePBX instead of a
more proprietary VoIP solution.  Either way I will be using the same SIP
phones so that is a non-issue as well.

Basic Requirements are as follows:
Wall Mount
*6 local network SIP extensions
*4 remote SIP extension over ADSL or cable
*4 incoming analog phone lines in a hunt group
*features such as auto attendant, voicemail to email, forward to pager for
after hours emergency etc.  Nothing too special

Any help, advice, experiences etc. would be greatly appreciated.

shadowym wrote:
> Astlinux would work except it does not currently meet some key requirements
> (GUI, Sangoma Analog card support).  Otherwise it would be a GREAT
> distribution for "set it and forget it" running without a Hard
Drive IMHO.
>   
Kristian is working with Sangoma to get wanpipe supported once again in 
Asterisk.  There have been some recent (last few days) changes in svn 
that indicate we are very close to having this working. 

Darrick

-- 
Darrick Hartman
DJH Solutions, LLC
http://www.djhsolutions.com

If the harddrive is the only thing you are concerned about... dont' be.

Many proprietary phone systems use hard drives.    Toshiba, Samsung, and
Nortel to name a few run some of their features off hard drives.   We had a
Nortell system some years ago that ran the entire ACD system off a hard
disk.   Glad we got rid of that thing before the hard drive died!  That was
always a fear of mine...

Now.. back to your issue.
Setup a crontab to restart asterisk every night.   Use a version of asterisk
you know well (I like 1.2.6) and know is stable.    Finally, setup RAID-5 on
the hard drives.  That way if one dies, you can still replace it without
data loss.   You aren't going to suffer corruption of anything, and if
somehow you DO get corruption of a hard disk, I don't see why that
couldn't
happen to the flash of a fanless system, or a proprietary system.

What the heck are you doing that you need fanless... and a system that can
never have any maintence, anyway?    Even a Nortel or Samsung may need
maintence from time to time.

On 2/24/07, shadowym <shadowym@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> Hi there,
>
> Here is my dilema.  I have a new small business customer that wants me to
> put in a VoIP phone system for them.  Based on their requirements, I have
> determined that it needs to be a "set it and forget it" type of
thing like
> a
> lot of small business proprietary systems.
>
> At the same time they would like to be able to do minor dial plan changes
> themselves so I have determine that a GUI like FreePBX or similar
> alternative (free or commercial) is appropriate.
>
> I have some concerns about using Asterisk for this. As much as I am in
> support of the whole Asterisk revolution, I just do not feel confident
> enough in Asterisk on a Hard Drive as a "set it and forget it"
setup
> running
> month after month, year after year.  I am hoping someone can convince me
> otherwise.  I'm concerned about hard drive corruptions/failures, memory
> leaks, software bugs etc.  I have the budget to buy good quality hardware
> so
> if I was to go with Asterisk I would go industrial grade fanless computer,
> power conditioned UPS etc.  I am not concerned about the reliability of
> most
> of the hardware.  It's the hard drive and the software that runs on it
> that
> worries me.  I will obviously use a mature stable Asterisk release and the
> most stable Linux version which I won't bother naming just to keep the
> discussion focussed.
>
> I have other Asterisk installs that went well but they were in
> environments
> where there were IT people around who were prepared to deal with some
> Linux
> administration and I could provide ongoing support for more major things.
> That is not the case here.  Some of those sites have been running for
> months
> untouched, some needed some updates and reboots for various issues.  I
> don't
> think this customer would look very favorably on me having to come in and
> add patches or have to reboot once a month or whatever.  Their expection
> is
> the same as they would have with any other phone system that mounts on the
> wall and "just works" for years.  I think that is a reasonable
> expectation.
>
> I am looking at putting in an Epygi proprietary VoIP system in
> instead.  It
> is mostly hardware based although apparently runs Linux.  It has a GUI, is
> supposedly plug and play most of the time, and most importantly, does not
> use a Hard Drive.  I have heard good things about them so for arguments
> sake, let's assume voice quality, features, and the enduser experience
are
> approximately the same as using an Asterisk/Analog FXO Card/hardware echo
> cancel solution.  Flexibility, scalability, upgradeability are non-issues
> because the requirements are fixed.  The Eqygi will end up costing a few
> hundred dollars more but for arguments sake let's assume cost's are
> approximately the same.
>
> Astlinux would work except it does not currently meet some key
> requirements
> (GUI, Sangoma Analog card support).  Otherwise it would be a GREAT
> distribution for "set it and forget it" running without a Hard
Drive IMHO.
>
> Anyways, I am hoping I can get enough positive feedback about "set it
and
> forget it" experiences to convince me to use Asterisk/FreePBX instead
of a
> more proprietary VoIP solution.  Either way I will be using the same SIP
> phones so that is a non-issue as well.
>
> Basic Requirements are as follows:
> Wall Mount
> *6 local network SIP extensions
> *4 remote SIP extension over ADSL or cable
> *4 incoming analog phone lines in a hunt group
> *features such as auto attendant, voicemail to email, forward to pager for
> after hours emergency etc.  Nothing too special
>
> Any help, advice, experiences etc. would be greatly appreciated.
>
> _______________________________________________
> --Bandwidth and Colocation provided by Easynews.com --
>
> asterisk-users mailing list
> To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit:
>    http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
>
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At 11:53 AM 2/24/2007, you wrote:
>
>Hi there,
>
>Here is my dilema.  I have a new small business customer that wants me to
>put in a VoIP phone system for them.  Based on their requirements, I have
>determined that it needs to be a "set it and forget it" type of
thing like a
>lot of small business proprietary systems.
There is no such thing as set and forget.  Businesses change.  They 
either grow or shrink, they don't stand still.  They will add and 
remove phones.  So they will call you at that time.  Or are you 
expecting them to shop for their own phones on Ebay?

>At the same time they would like to be able to do minor dial plan changes
>themselves so I have determine that a GUI like FreePBX or similar
>alternative (free or commercial) is appropriate.
We take a different approach.  We don't want a GUI.  We don't want 
the limits.  We work with the business to design their dial 
plan.  Then we write it.  We do not give them a GUI because we don't 
want them making changes and then asking for support.

We sell them a minor service agreement and remote in for any 
changes.  We also handle professional voice recording and basic 
training on phone use.  And we handle backups and service if 
needed.  Once they understand that we can do that without a service 
call, they are quite receptive to the idea.

Conventional PBXs come with service agreements so customers are used 
to that but surprised at the low cost from you.

>I have some concerns about using Asterisk for this. As much as I am in
>support of the whole Asterisk revolution, I just do not feel confident
>enough in Asterisk on a Hard Drive as a "set it and forget it"
setup running
>month after month, year after year.  I am hoping someone can convince me
>otherwise.
Hard drives are reliable.  But I have similar feelings so we are 
working on a flash solution.  Were running it beta in our office 
right now. It only uses the hard drive for daily voicemail, boots 
from flash and runs from RAM.
>I'm concerned about hard drive corruptions/failures, memory
>leaks, software bugs etc.
Conventional systems have bugs too.
>  I have the budget to buy good quality hardware so
>if I was to go with Asterisk I would go industrial grade fanless computer,
>power conditioned UPS etc.
You don't really need fanless.  Make it cheap enough that it can 
easily be replaced.  Like a $500 PC.
>I am not concerned about the reliability of most
>of the hardware.  It's the hard drive and the software that runs on it
that
>worries me.  I will obviously use a mature stable Asterisk release and the
>most stable Linux version which I won't bother naming just to keep the
>discussion focussed.
Asterisk is pretty darn stable.

>I have other Asterisk installs that went well but they were in environments
>where there were IT people around who were prepared to deal with some Linux
>administration and I could provide ongoing support for more major things.
>That is not the case here.  Some of those sites have been running for months
>untouched, some needed some updates and reboots for various issues.  I
don't
>think this customer would look very favorably on me having to come in and
>add patches or have to reboot once a month or whatever.
So do it from home.  And how often do you really need to upgrade a 
minimal  read only flash based system with no dev tools running from 
RAM?  Does the latest kernel really matter?
>   Their expection is
>the same as they would have with any other phone system that mounts on the
>wall and "just works" for years.  I think that is a reasonable
expectation.
Agreed.  And if it breaks, you replace it quickly and at a low cost.
>I am looking at putting in an Epygi proprietary VoIP system in instead.  It
>is mostly hardware based although apparently runs Linux.  It has a GUI, is
>supposedly plug and play most of the time, and most importantly, does not
>use a Hard Drive.  I have heard good things about them so for arguments
>sake, let's assume voice quality, features, and the enduser experience
are
>approximately the same as using an Asterisk/Analog FXO Card/hardware echo
>cancel solution.  Flexibility, scalability, upgradeability are non-issues
>because the requirements are fixed.  The Eqygi will end up costing a few
>hundred dollars more but for arguments sake let's assume cost's are
>approximately the same.
Are you selling them service or passing them off to someone 
else?   Who will set up and support Egypi?  If you are servicing them 
then that is one more system that you have to learn, stock and 
support.  If you don't stock it, can they afford to be down for a day 
or longer waiting for a replacement?
>Astlinux would work except it does not currently meet some key requirements
>(GUI, Sangoma Analog card support).  Otherwise it would be a GREAT
>distribution for "set it and forget it" running without a Hard
Drive IMHO.
>
>Anyways, I am hoping I can get enough positive feedback about "set it
and
>forget it" experiences to convince me to use Asterisk/FreePBX instead
of a
>more proprietary VoIP solution.  Either way I will be using the same SIP
>phones so that is a non-issue as well.
With proper hardware and support, they just run.  We do not reboot in 
a cron.   Our oldest is going on about 2 years.
>Basic Requirements are as follows:
>Wall Mount
No floor or shelf space in their wiring closet?
>*6 local network SIP extensions
>*4 remote SIP extension over ADSL or cable
>*4 incoming analog phone lines in a hunt group
>*features such as auto attendant, voicemail to email, forward to pager for
>after hours emergency etc.  Nothing too special
>
>Any help, advice, experiences etc. would be greatly appreciated.
Small, cheap, well made PC.  We are using a small Dell which is well 
built and easy to replace.  Sangoma A200 analog card.  Flash 
based.  Lots of testing.  You provide the support.

That's what we are doing.

Tom

On 02/25/07 06:26 Darrick Hartman said the following:
> Kristian is working with Sangoma to get wanpipe supported once again in 
> Asterisk.  
is there a reason why wanpipe stopped working with asterisk ?

-- 
Regards,                           /\_/\   "All dogs go to heaven."
dinesh@alphaque.com                (0 0)   http://www.openmalaysiablog.com/
+==========================----oOO--(_)--OOo----==========================+
| for a in past present future; do                                        |
|   for b in clients employers associates relatives neighbours pets; do   |
|   echo "The opinions here in no way reflect the opinions of my $a
$b."  |
| done; done                                                              |
+=========================================================================+

Dinesh Nair wrote:
>
>
> is there a reason why wanpipe stopped working with asterisk ?
>
My experience from yesterday shows that zaptel.c has been renamed to 
zaptel-base.c.  This prevents the Sangoma Setup script from patching 
zaptel.  The fix (Found by Googling) was to rename every instance of 
zaptel.c to zaptel-base.c in the Setup script.  It can be viewed on 
bugs.digium.com number 9050 which is now closed.

Thanks Andrew!  You saved me hours of hair pulling!

Doug


-- 
Ben Franklin quote:

"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary
Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

On Saturday 24 February 2007 18:53, shadowym wrote:
> Hi there,
>
> Here is my dilema.  I have a new small business customer that wants me to
> put in a VoIP phone system for them.  Based on their requirements, I have
> determined that it needs to be a "set it and forget it" type of
thing like
> a lot of small business proprietary systems.
I've run Asterisk on Embedded versions of Hardened Gentoo without a
harddrive,
using a CD drive and a compact flash card. It's been running without any 
problems related to the setup for months. 
I've experienced a few problems with NTP servers becoming unavailable and a 
Uclibc bug when creating too many dial files in the spool directory at the 
same time, but apart from that it's rock stable.

I've been running it on cheap Via Epia hardware so hardware problems will 
likely pop up at some time.

-- 
Sune Kloppenborg Jeppesen (Jaervosz)

Dinesh Nair wrote:
>
>
> On 02/25/07 06:26 Darrick Hartman said the following:
>> Kristian is working with Sangoma to get wanpipe supported once again 
>> in Asterisk.  
>
> is there a reason why wanpipe stopped working with asterisk ?
>
I meant with AstLinux.  Sorry for any confusion.

-- 
Darrick Hartman
DJH Solutions, LLC
http://www.djhsolutions.com

On 2/24/07, shadowym <shadowym@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Astlinux would work except it does not currently meet some key requirements
> (GUI, Sangoma Analog card support).  Otherwise it would be a GREAT
> distribution for "set it and forget it" running without a Hard
Drive IMHO.
>
shadowym,

  With a little work one could use the Digium GUI and the existing
front end to rc.conf to provide a complete GUI for an AstLinux system
using %100 open source components.  Everything you need except the GUI
itself is already there (PHP, http/https server - even sqlite).  All
you have to do is provide the PHP...

  As Darrick mentioned I have been working with Sangoma to get their
cards supported in AstLinux again.  Look out for the announcement of
AstLinux 0.4.5 and AstLinux 0.5.0, both of which should feature full
Sangoma support (along with Digium cards, of course)!

  Whether or not AstLinux can meet your needs it would be much better
to use something that is OSS/Asterisk based.  Looking at your
requirements, it shouldn't be that hard.

-- 
Kristian Kielhofner