zfs discuss - Feb 2013 - zfs-discuss mailing list & opensolaris EOL

So, I hear, in a couple weeks'' time, opensolaris.org is shutting down. 
What does that mean for this mailing list?  Should we all be moving over to
something at illumos or something?

I''m going to encourage somebody in an official capacity at opensolaris
to respond...
I''m going to discourage unofficial responses, like, illumos enthusiasts
etc simply trying to get people to jump this list.

Thanks for any info ...
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In the absence of any official response, I guess we just have to assume this
list will be shut down, right?
So I guess we just have to move to the illumos mailing list, as Deirdre
suggests?



From: zfs-discuss-bounces at opensolaris.org [mailto:zfs-discuss-bounces at
opensolaris.org] On Behalf Of Edward Ned Harvey
(opensolarisisdeadlongliveopensolaris)
Sent: Friday, February 15, 2013 11:00 AM
To: zfs-discuss at opensolaris.org
Subject: [zfs-discuss] zfs-discuss mailing list & opensolaris EOL

So, I hear, in a couple weeks'' time, opensolaris.org is shutting down. 
What does that mean for this mailing list?  Should we all be moving over to
something at illumos or something?

I''m going to encourage somebody in an official capacity at opensolaris
to respond...
I''m going to discourage unofficial responses, like, illumos enthusiasts
etc simply trying to get people to jump this list.

Thanks for any info ...
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On Sat, Feb 16, 2013 at 10:47 AM, Edward Ned Harvey
(opensolarisisdeadlongliveopensolaris) <
opensolarisisdeadlongliveopensolaris at nedharvey.com> wrote:
>  In the absence of any official response, I guess we just have to assume
> this list will be shut down, right?****
>
> So I guess we just have to move to the illumos mailing list, as Deirdre
> suggests?****
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> *From:* zfs-discuss-bounces at opensolaris.org [mailto:
> zfs-discuss-bounces at opensolaris.org] *On Behalf Of *Edward Ned Harvey
> (opensolarisisdeadlongliveopensolaris)
> *Sent:* Friday, February 15, 2013 11:00 AM
> *To:* zfs-discuss at opensolaris.org
> *Subject:* [zfs-discuss] zfs-discuss mailing list & opensolaris EOL****
>
> ** **
>
> So, I hear, in a couple weeks'' time, opensolaris.org is shutting
down.
> What does that mean for this mailing list?  Should we all be moving over to
> something at illumos or something?****
>
> ** **
>
> I''m going to encourage somebody in an official capacity at
opensolaris to
> respond...****
>
> I''m going to discourage unofficial responses, like, illumos
enthusiasts
> etc simply trying to get people to jump this list.****
>
> ** **
>
> Thanks for any info ...****
>
>
That would be the logical decision, yes.  Not to poke fun, but did you
really expect an official response after YEARS of nothing from Oracle?
 This is the same company that refused to release any Java patches until
the DHS issued a national warning suggesting that everyone uninstall Java.

--Tim
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On Sat, Feb 16, 2013 at 10:17 PM, Edward Ned Harvey
(opensolarisisdeadlongliveopensolaris)
<opensolarisisdeadlongliveopensolaris at nedharvey.com>
wrote:
> In the absence of any official response, I guess we just have to assume
this
> list will be shut down, right?
>
> So I guess we just have to move to the illumos mailing list, as Deirdre
> suggests?
>
Or, given that this is a weekend, we assume that someone within Oracle
would see this mail only on Monday morning Pacific Time, then send out
some mails within, and be able to respond in public only by Wednesday
evening Pacific Time at best.

-- Sriram
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: zfs-discuss-bounces at opensolaris.org
> [mailto:zfs-discuss-bounces at opensolaris.org] On Behalf Of Edward Ned
Harvey
> (opensolarisisdeadlongliveopensolaris)
> Sent: Friday, February 15, 2013 11:00 AM
> To: zfs-discuss at opensolaris.org
> Subject: [zfs-discuss] zfs-discuss mailing list & opensolaris EOL
>
>
>
> So, I hear, in a couple weeks'' time, opensolaris.org is shutting
down.  What
> does that mean for this mailing list?  Should we all be moving over to
> something at illumos or something?
>
>
>
> I''m going to encourage somebody in an official capacity at
opensolaris to
> respond...
>
> I''m going to discourage unofficial responses, like, illumos
enthusiasts etc
> simply trying to get people to jump this list.
>
>
>
> Thanks for any info ...
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> zfs-discuss mailing list
> zfs-discuss at opensolaris.org
> http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
>


-- 
Belenix: www.belenix.org

On Fri, 15 Feb 2013, Edward Ned Harvey (opensolarisisdeadlongliveopensolaris)
wrote:
> 
> So, I hear, in a couple weeks'' time, opensolaris.org is shutting
down.? What does that mean for this mailing list?? Should we
> all be moving over to something at illumos or something?
There is a ''illumos-zfs'' list for illumos.  Please see 
"http://wiki.illumos.org/display/illumos/illumos+Mailing+Lists" for 
the available lists.  Most open discussion of zfs occurs on the 
illumos list, although there is also useful discussion on the 
freebsd-fs list at freebsd.org.
> I''m going to encourage somebody in an official capacity at
opensolaris to respond...
> 
> I''m going to discourage unofficial responses, like, illumos
enthusiasts etc simply trying to get people to jump this list.
Good for you.  I am sure that Larry will be contacting you soon.

Previously Oracle announced and invited people to join their 
discussion forums, which are web-based and virtually dead.

Bob
-- 
Bob Friesenhahn
bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/
GraphicsMagick Maintainer,    http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/

> From: Tim Cook [mailto:tim at cook.ms]
> 
> That would be the logical decision, yes. ?Not to poke fun, but did you
really
> expect an official response after YEARS of nothing from Oracle? ?This is
the
> same company that refused to release any Java patches until the DHS issued
> a national warning suggesting that everyone uninstall Java.
Well, yes.  We do have oracle employees who contribute to this mailing list.  It
is not accurate or fair to stereotype the whole company.  Oracle by itself is as
large as some cities or countries.

I can understand a company policy of secrecy about development direction and
stuff like that.  I would think somebody would be able to officially confirm or
deny that this mailing list is going to stop.  At least one of their system
administrators lurks here...

> From: sriramnrn at gmail.com [mailto:sriramnrn at gmail.com] On Behalf Of
> Sriram Narayanan
> 
> Or, given that this is a weekend, we assume that someone within Oracle
> would see this mail only on Monday morning Pacific Time, then send out
> some mails within, and be able to respond in public only by Wednesday
> evening Pacific Time at best.
I remembered to take that into account.  Question was posted Friday morning,
EST.  And not every oracle employee subscribes here with their work email
address.  Nor does everyone limit themselves to conversing in the community
during only business hours.

Don''t forget Monday''s a holiday.

> From: Bob Friesenhahn [mailto:bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us]
>  
> Good for you.  I am sure that Larry will be contacting you soon.
hehehehehe...  he knows better.   ;-)

> Previously Oracle announced and invited people to join their
> discussion forums, which are web-based and virtually dead.
Invited people with paid support contracts.

On Sat, 16 Feb 2013, Edward Ned Harvey (opensolarisisdeadlongliveopensolaris)
wrote:
>> From: Tim Cook [mailto:tim at cook.ms]
>>
>> That would be the logical decision, yes. ?Not to poke fun, but did you
really
>> expect an official response after YEARS of nothing from Oracle? ?This
is the
>> same company that refused to release any Java patches until the DHS
issued
>> a national warning suggesting that everyone uninstall Java.
>
> Well, yes.  We do have oracle employees who contribute to this 
> mailing list.  It is not accurate or fair to stereotype the whole 
> company.  Oracle by itself is as large as some cities or countries.
Yes, these remaining employees do so because they still can.  Except 
for those employees brave enough to post to Illumos/OpenIndiana lists 
(there are some), there will be no more avenues remaining for 
unmoderated two-way communication with the outside world.  There have 
been some cases where people said unfavorable things about Oracle on 
this list.  Oracle needs to control its message and the principle form 
of communication will be via private support calls authorized by 
service contracts and authorized corporate publications.

Bob
-- 
Bob Friesenhahn
bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/
GraphicsMagick Maintainer,    http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/

On Sat, Feb 16, 2013 at 11:21 AM, Edward Ned Harvey
(opensolarisisdeadlongliveopensolaris) <
opensolarisisdeadlongliveopensolaris at nedharvey.com> wrote:
> > From: Tim Cook [mailto:tim at cook.ms]
> >
> > That would be the logical decision, yes.  Not to poke fun, but did you
> really
> > expect an official response after YEARS of nothing from Oracle?  This
is
> the
> > same company that refused to release any Java patches until the DHS
> issued
> > a national warning suggesting that everyone uninstall Java.
>
> Well, yes.  We do have oracle employees who contribute to this mailing
> list.  It is not accurate or fair to stereotype the whole company.  Oracle
> by itself is as large as some cities or countries.
>
> I can understand a company policy of secrecy about development direction
> and stuff like that.  I would think somebody would be able to officially
> confirm or deny that this mailing list is going to stop.  At least one of
> their system administrators lurks here...
>
>

We''ve got Oracle employees on the mailing list, that while helpful, in
no
way have the authority to speak for company policy.  They''ve made that
clear on numerous occasions   And that doesn''t change the fact that we
literally have heard NOTHING from Oracle since the closing of OpensSolaris.
 0 official statements, so I once gain ask: what do you think you were
going to get in response to your questions?

The reason you hear nothing from them on anything official is because
it''s
a good way to lose your job.

--Tim
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On 02/16/2013 06:44 PM, Tim Cook wrote:
> We''ve got Oracle employees on the mailing list, that while
helpful, in no
> way have the authority to speak for company policy.  They''ve made
that
> clear on numerous occasions   And that doesn''t change the fact
that we
> literally have heard NOTHING from Oracle since the closing of OpensSolaris.
>  0 official statements, so I once gain ask: what do you think you were
> going to get in response to your questions?
> 
> The reason you hear nothing from them on anything official is because
it''s
> a good way to lose your job.
People, let''s get down to brass tax here. Either:

1) You will continue to get zfs-discuss at opensolaris.org e-mail after
   March 24th and can carry on as before, or
2) You won''t, in which case we welcome everybody at
   zfs at lists.illumos.org.

It''s really that simple.

Cheers,
--
Saso

Hey Ned and Everyone,

This was new news to use too and we''re just talking over some options
yesterday
afternoon so please give us a chance to regroup and provide some
alternatives.

This list will be shutdown but we can start a new one on java.net. There is
a huge
ecosystem around Solaris and ZFS, particularly within Oracle. Many of us
are still
here because we are passionate about ZFS, Solaris 11 and even Solaris 10. I
think we have a great product and a lot of info to share.

If you''re interested in a rejuvenated ZFS discuss list on java.net,
then
drop me a note:
cindy.swearingen at oracle.com

We are also considering a new ZFS page in that community as well. Oracle is
very
committed to Solaris and ZFS, but they want to consolidate their community
efforts on
java.net, retire some old hardware, and so on.

If you are an Oracle customer with a support contract and you are using
Solaris and ZFS,
and you want to discuss support issues, you should consider that list as
well:

https://communities.oracle.com/portal/server.pt/community/oracle_solaris_zfs_file_system/526

Thanks, Cindy

On Fri, Feb 15, 2013 at 9:00 AM, Edward Ned Harvey
(opensolarisisdeadlongliveopensolaris) <
opensolarisisdeadlongliveopensolaris at nedharvey.com> wrote:
>  So, I hear, in a couple weeks'' time, opensolaris.org is shutting
down.
> What does that mean for this mailing list?  Should we all be moving over to
> something at illumos or something?****
>
> ** **
>
> I''m going to encourage somebody in an official capacity at
opensolaris to
> respond...****
>
> I''m going to discourage unofficial responses, like, illumos
enthusiasts
> etc simply trying to get people to jump this list.****
>
> ** **
>
> Thanks for any info ...****
>
> _______________________________________________
> zfs-discuss mailing list
> zfs-discuss at opensolaris.org
> http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
>
>
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Hello Cindy,

Are there any plans to preserve the official mailing lists'' archives,
or will they go the way of Jive forums and the future digs for bits
of knowledge would rely on alternate mirrors and caches?

I understand that Oracle has some business priorities, but retiring
hardware causes site shutdown? They''ve gotta be kidding, with all
the buzz about clouds and virtualization ;)

I''d guess, you also are not authorized to say whether Oracle might
permit re-use (re-hosting) of current OpenSolaris.Org materials or
even give away the site and domain for community steering and rid
itself of more black PR by shooting down another public project of
the Sun legacy (hint: if the site does wither and die in community''s
hands - it is not Oracle''s fault; and if it lives on - Oracle did
something good for karma... win-win, at no price).

Thanks for your helpfulness in the past years,
//Jim

Is it possible to replicate the whole opensolaris site to
illumos/openindiana/smartos/omnios site in a sub-catalog as archive?
>-----Original Message-----
>From: zfs-discuss-bounces at opensolaris.org
>[mailto:zfs-discuss-bounces at opensolaris.org] On Behalf Of Jim Klimov
>Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2013 7:42 AM
>To: zfs-discuss at opensolaris.org
>Subject: Re: [zfs-discuss] zfs-discuss mailing list & opensolaris EOL
>
>Hello Cindy,
>
>Are there any plans to preserve the official mailing lists''
archives, or will they
>go the way of Jive forums and the future digs for bits of knowledge would
rely
>on alternate mirrors and caches?
>
>I understand that Oracle has some business priorities, but retiring hardware
>causes site shutdown? They''ve gotta be kidding, with all the buzz
about clouds
>and virtualization ;)
>
>I''d guess, you also are not authorized to say whether Oracle might
permit
>re-use (re-hosting) of current OpenSolaris.Org materials or even give away
>the site and domain for community steering and rid itself of more black PR
by
>shooting down another public project of the Sun legacy (hint: if the site
does
>wither and die in community''s hands - it is not Oracle''s
fault; and if it lives on -
>Oracle did something good for karma... win-win, at no price).
>
>Thanks for your helpfulness in the past years, //Jim
>_______________________________________________
>zfs-discuss mailing list
>zfs-discuss at opensolaris.org
>http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss

On 16/02/13 3:51 PM, Sa?o Kiselkov wrote:
> On 02/16/2013 06:44 PM, Tim Cook wrote:
>> We''ve got Oracle employees on the mailing list, that while
helpful, in no
>> way have the authority to speak for company policy.  They''ve
made that
>> clear on numerous occasions   And that doesn''t change the fact
that we
>> literally have heard NOTHING from Oracle since the closing of
OpensSolaris.
>>   0 official statements, so I once gain ask: what do you think you were
>> going to get in response to your questions?
>>
>> The reason you hear nothing from them on anything official is because
it''s
>> a good way to lose your job.
>
> People, let''s get down to brass tax here. Either:
>
> 1) You will continue to get zfs-discuss at opensolaris.org e-mail after
>     March 24th and can carry on as before, or
> 2) You won''t, in which case we welcome everybody at
>     zfs at lists.illumos.org.
Signed up, thanks.

The ZFS list has been very high value and I thank everyone whose wisdom 
I have enjoyed, especially people like you Sa?o, Mr Elling, Mr 
Friesenhahn, Mr Harvey, the distinguished Sun and Oracle engineers who 
post here, and many others.

Let the Illumos list thrive.

--Toby
>
> It''s really that simple.
>
> Cheers,
> --
> Saso
> _______________________________________________
> zfs-discuss mailing list
> zfs-discuss at opensolaris.org
> http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
>

Toby Thain wrote:
> Signed up, thanks.
>
> The ZFS list has been very high value and I thank everyone whose wisdom
> I have enjoyed, especially people like you Sa?o, Mr Elling, Mr
> Friesenhahn, Mr Harvey, the distinguished Sun and Oracle engineers who
> post here, and many others.
>
> Let the Illumos list thrive.
This list certainly has been high value for ZFS users (I think I 
subscribed the day is started!).

One of its main advantages is it has been platform agnostic.  We see 
Solaris, Illumos, BSD and more recently ZFS on Linux questions all give 
the same respect.

I do hope we can get another, platform agnostic, home for this list.

-- 
Ian.

+------------------------------------------------------------------------------
| On 2013-02-17 18:40:47, Ian Collins wrote:
| 
> One of its main advantages is it has been platform agnostic.  We see 
> Solaris, Illumos, BSD and more recently ZFS on Linux questions all give the
> same respect.
>
> I do hope we can get another, platform agnostic, home for this list.
As the guy who provides the illumos mailing list services, and as someone who
has deeply vested interests in seeing ZFS thrive on all platforms, I''m
happy to
suggest that we''d welcome all comers on zfs at lists.illumos.org.

The more brains in one place, the better.
-- 
bdha
cyberpunk is dead. long live cyberpunk.

On Feb 16, 2013, at 10:16 PM, Bryan Horstmann-Allen <bda at
mirrorshades.net> wrote:
>
+------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> | On 2013-02-17 18:40:47, Ian Collins wrote:
> | 
>> One of its main advantages is it has been platform agnostic.  We see 
>> Solaris, Illumos, BSD and more recently ZFS on Linux questions all give
the
>> same respect.
>> 
>> I do hope we can get another, platform agnostic, home for this list.
> 
> As the guy who provides the illumos mailing list services, and as someone
who
> has deeply vested interests in seeing ZFS thrive on all platforms,
I''m happy to
> suggest that we''d welcome all comers on zfs at lists.illumos.org.
+1
 -- richard

-- 

ZFS and performance consulting
http://www.RichardElling.com

Richard Elling wrote:
> On Feb 16, 2013, at 10:16 PM, Bryan Horstmann-Allen <bda at
mirrorshades.net> wrote:
>
>>
+------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> | On 2013-02-17 18:40:47, Ian Collins wrote:
>> |
>>> One of its main advantages is it has been platform agnostic.  We
see
>>> Solaris, Illumos, BSD and more recently ZFS on Linux questions all
give the
>>> same respect.
>>>
>>> I do hope we can get another, platform agnostic, home for this
list.
>> As the guy who provides the illumos mailing list services, and as
someone who
>> has deeply vested interests in seeing ZFS thrive on all platforms,
I''m happy to
>> suggest that we''d welcome all comers on zfs at
lists.illumos.org.
> +1
Me to.

One list is certainly better than >1!

-- 
Ian.

On Sat, Feb 16, 2013 at 3:42 PM, cindy swearingen <
cindy.swearingen at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hey Ned and Everyone,
>
> This was new news to use too and we''re just talking over some
options
> yesterday
> afternoon so please give us a chance to regroup and provide some
> alternatives.
>
> This list will be shutdown but we can start a new one on java.net. There
> is a huge
> ecosystem around Solaris and ZFS, particularly within Oracle. Many of us
> are still
> here because we are passionate about ZFS, Solaris 11 and even Solaris 10. I
> think we have a great product and a lot of info to share.
>
> If you''re interested in a rejuvenated ZFS discuss list on
java.net, then
> drop me a note:
> cindy.swearingen at oracle.com
>
> We are also considering a new ZFS page in that community as well. Oracle
> is very
> committed to Solaris and ZFS, but they want to consolidate their community
> efforts on
> java.net, retire some old hardware, and so on.
>
> If you are an Oracle customer with a support contract and you are using
> Solaris and ZFS,
> and you want to discuss support issues, you should consider that list as
> well:
>
>
>
https://communities.oracle.com/portal/server.pt/community/oracle_solaris_zfs_file_system/526
>
> Thanks, Cindy
>
>

While I''m sure many appreciate the offer as I do, I can tell you for me
personally: never going to happen.  Why would I spend all that time and
energy participating in ANOTHER list controlled by Oracle, when they have
shown they have no qualms about eliminating it with basically 0 warning, at
their whim?  I''ll be sticking to the illumos lists that I''m
confident will
be turned over to someone else should the current maintainers decide they
no longer wish to contribute to the project.  On the flip side, I think we
welcome all Oracle employees to participate in that list should corporate
policy allow you to.

--Tim
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+------------------------------------------------------------------------------
| On 2013-02-17 01:17:58, Tim Cook wrote:
| 
| While I''m sure many appreciate the offer as I do, I can tell you for
me
| personally: never going to happen.  Why would I spend all that time and
| energy participating in ANOTHER list controlled by Oracle, when they have
| shown they have no qualms about eliminating it with basically 0 warning, at
| their whim?  I''ll be sticking to the illumos lists that I''m
confident will
| be turned over to someone else should the current maintainers decide they
| no longer wish to contribute to the project.  On the flip side, I think we
| welcome all Oracle employees to participate in that list should corporate
| policy allow you to.

The current maintainers (Pobox.com, Listbox.com) have a long history with open
source software in the Perl community, both on the CPAN and more recently with
employee time being allocated for work on the interpreter releases.

Pobox is in love with both email _and_ open source.

We''re also halfway done migrating our systems from Solaris (which
we''ve run
since 2006) to OmniOS. Like many other companies represented on the zfs list,
Pobox/Listbox is betting on illumos. We''ll continue to play nicely.

If something occurs and we can no longer host the services we currently do, I
personally guarantee a cordial handover (more than likely to something Josh and
I set up.)

Furthermore, at my dayjob, we''re deploying Joyent''s
SmartDatacenter in a
non-trivial way, and so I''m also committed to the success of SmartOS.

Finally: There are still a lot of knowledgable people with good ethics doing
good work at Oracle. I''d love to see them on the illumos lists.

(If anyone wants to grump about that, they should ask to borrow that particular
Oracle employees shoes to walk a mile in, before they stick one of their own in
their mouth.)

Cheers.
-- 
bdha
cyberpunk is dead. long live cyberpunk.

On 02/17/2013 06:40 AM, Ian Collins wrote:
> Toby Thain wrote:
>> Signed up, thanks.
>>
>> The ZFS list has been very high value and I thank everyone whose wisdom
>> I have enjoyed, especially people like you Sa?o, Mr Elling, Mr
>> Friesenhahn, Mr Harvey, the distinguished Sun and Oracle engineers who
>> post here, and many others.
>>
>> Let the Illumos list thrive.
> 
> This list certainly has been high value for ZFS users (I think I
> subscribed the day is started!).
> 
> One of its main advantages is it has been platform agnostic.  We see
> Solaris, Illumos, BSD and more recently ZFS on Linux questions all give
> the same respect.
> 
> I do hope we can get another, platform agnostic, home for this list.
Despite having a "lists.illumos.org" DNS name, the Illumos ZFS list
isn''t just about Illumos. We have regular contributions from the
FreeBSD
and ZOL folks, they are on the list and we frequently use it to exchange
contributions. For example, when I got LZ4 compression integrated,
within a few days those changes were pulled into both FreeBSD and ZOL -
I''d say the community is pretty active!

Cheers,
--
Saso

> From: cindy swearingen [mailto:cindy.swearingen at gmail.com]
> 
> This was new news to use too and we''re just talking over some
options
> yesterday
> afternoon so please give us a chance to regroup and provide some
> alternatives.
> 
> This list will be shutdown but we can start a new one on java.net.
Thanks Cindy - I, for one, am in favor of another list on java.net, because the
development is basically split into oracle & illumos.  While illumos users
might have a small aversion to using another oracle list, I think oracle users
will likely have a much larger aversion to using a non-oracle list.  So I think
there''s room for both lists, as well as just cause for both lists.

If at all possible, I would advise preserving the history of these mailing
lists.  Extremely useful sometimes, when referencing past conversations and
stuff, and searching for little tidbits via google.

I would also advise making some sort of announcement on any of the other
opensolaris mailing lists that happen to be active.

> From: Tim Cook [mailto:tim at cook.ms]
> 
> Why would I spend all that time and
> energy participating in ANOTHER list controlled by Oracle, when they have
> shown they?have?no qualms about eliminating it with basically 0 warning, at
> their whim?
>From an open source, community perspective, I understand and agree with this
sentiment.  If OSS projects behave this way, they die.  The purpose of an
oracle-hosted mailing list is not for the sake of being open in any way.
It''s for the sake of allowing public discussions about their product. 
While a certain amount of knowledge will exist with or without the list (people
can still download solaris 11 for evaluation purposes and test it out on the
honor system) there will be less oracle-specific knowledge in existence without
the list.  For anyone who''s 100% dedicated to OSS and/or illumos and
doesn''t care about oracle-specific stuff, there''s no reason to
use that list.  But for those of us who are sysadmins, developers using
eval-licensed solaris, or in any way not completely closed to the possibility of
using oracle zfs / solaris...  For those of us, it makes sense.
Guess what, I formerly subscribed to netapp-toasters as well.  Until zfs came
along and I was able to happily put netapp in my past.  Perhaps someday
I''ll leave zfs behind in favor of btrfs.  But not yet.

Guess what also, there is a very active thriving Microsoft forum out there too. 
And they don''t even let you download MS Office or Windows for
evaluation purposes - they''re even more closed than Oracle in this
regard.  They learned their lesson about piracy and the honor system.   ;-)

On Sun, Feb 17, 2013 at 8:58 AM, Edward Ned Harvey
(opensolarisisdeadlongliveopensolaris) <
opensolarisisdeadlongliveopensolaris at nedharvey.com> wrote:
> > From: Tim Cook [mailto:tim at cook.ms]
> >
> > Why would I spend all that time and
> > energy participating in ANOTHER list controlled by Oracle, when they
have
> > shown they have no qualms about eliminating it with basically 0
warning,
> at
> > their whim?
>
> From an open source, community perspective, I understand and agree with
> this sentiment.  If OSS projects behave this way, they die.  The purpose of
> an oracle-hosted mailing list is not for the sake of being open in any way.
> It''s for the sake of allowing public discussions about their
product.
>  While a certain amount of knowledge will exist with or without the list
> (people can still download solaris 11 for evaluation purposes and test it
> out on the honor system) there will be less oracle-specific knowledge in
> existence without the list.  For anyone who''s 100% dedicated to
OSS and/or
> illumos and doesn''t care about oracle-specific stuff,
there''s no reason to
> use that list.  But for those of us who are sysadmins, developers using
> eval-licensed solaris, or in any way not completely closed to the
> possibility of using oracle zfs / solaris...  For those of us, it makes
> sense.
>
> Guess what, I formerly subscribed to netapp-toasters as well.  Until zfs
> came along and I was able to happily put netapp in my past.  Perhaps
> someday I''ll leave zfs behind in favor of btrfs.  But not yet.
>
> Guess what also, there is a very active thriving Microsoft forum out there
> too.  And they don''t even let you download MS Office or Windows
for
> evaluation purposes - they''re even more closed than Oracle in this
regard.
>  They learned their lesson about piracy and the honor system.   ;-)
>
>
We can agree to disagree.

I think you''re still operating under the auspices of Oracle wanting to
have
an open discussion.  This is patently false.  There''s a reason why
anytime
someone has an issue the response from the Oracle team that posts here is
almost always "open a support ticket and give me the number".  And
then we
never hear about it again/get the fix unless the end-user happens to come
back and update us.  If you think that Oracle is going to change that
stance with a list hosted on Java.net, you''re sadly mistaken.  Their
(collectively, I''m not speaking of any individual) only goal is to help
paying customers.  Period.  The way they''ve decided to go about that is
by
hoarding knowledge.  I''ve dealt with the company for over a decade,
there
will be no open discussions.

NetApp has historically been open with their user community (although at
times in recent history they have made the mistake of turtling up), which
is why the toasters mailing list did as well as it did.  Hell, Dave Hitz
used to be a regular poster.  MS forums are active and thriving because
they''ve got a massive user base full of extremely experienced admins. 
If
there was an open and free version of the MS products, I''m willing to
bet
that you''d find the closed source version a ghost town.  For all the
bashing MS has taken throughout history, they''re a very open company
relatively speaking.  I can both browse their knowledge base and download
hotfixes without any support contract.

If you''re going to have to open a support ticket to get help with
issues
anyways, why bother with a mailing list/forum?  Just go straight to
support.  The reason THESE lists have done so well is because the guys who
wrote the code actively participate and give detailed help in the open.  If
the only responses that ever came here were the Oracle responses to open up
a ticket beyond anything but basic problems, this place would''ve died a
long time ago.  I think the saddest part of the whole situation is Oracle
is so backwards and broken they don''t even allow their employees to
tell us
what they aren''t allowed to talk to us about.  THAT is f-ed.


--Tim
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> From: Tim Cook [mailto:tim at cook.ms]
> 
> We can agree to disagree.
> 
> I think you''re still operating under the auspices of Oracle
wanting to have an
> open discussion. ?This is patently false. ?
I''m just going to respond to this by saying thank you, Cindy, Casper,
Neil, and others, for all the help over the years.  I think we all agree it was
cooler when opensolaris was open, but things are beyond our control, so be it. 
Moving forward, I don''t expect Oracle to be any more open than MS or
Apple or Google, which is to say, I understand there''s stuff you
can''t talk about, and support you can''t give freely or openly.
But to the extent you''re still able to discuss publicly known things,
thank you.

Edward Ned Harvey (opensolarisisdeadlongliveopensolaris)
wrote:
>> From: Tim Cook [mailto:tim at cook.ms]
>>
>> We can agree to disagree.
>>
>> I think you''re still operating under the auspices of Oracle
wanting to have an
>> open discussion.  This is patently false.
> I''m just going to respond to this by saying thank you, Cindy,
Casper, Neil, and others, for all the help over the years.  I think we all agree
it was cooler when opensolaris was open, but things are beyond our control, so
be it.  Moving forward, I don''t expect Oracle to be any more open than
MS or Apple or Google, which is to say, I understand there''s stuff you
can''t talk about, and support you can''t give freely or openly.
But to the extent you''re still able to discuss publicly known things,
thank you.
+1.

-- 
Ian.

Ian Collins writes:
> Edward Ned Harvey (opensolarisisdeadlongliveopensolaris) wrote:
> >> From: Tim Cook [mailto:tim at cook.ms]
> >>
> >> We can agree to disagree.
> >>
> >> I think you''re still operating under the auspices of
Oracle
> >> wanting to have an open discussion.  This is patently false.
> > I''m just going to respond to this by saying thank you, Cindy,
> > Casper, Neil, and others, for all the help over the years.  I
> > think we all agree it was cooler when opensolaris was open, but
> > things are beyond our control, so be it.  Moving forward, I
don''t
> > expect Oracle to be any more open than MS or Apple or Google,
> > which is to say, I understand there''s stuff you
can''t talk about,
> > and support you can''t give freely or openly.  But to the
extent
> > you''re still able to discuss publicly known things, thank
you.
> 
> +1.
+99999

:-)

-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Volker A. Brandt               Consulting and Support for Oracle Solaris
Brandt & Brandt Computer GmbH                   WWW: http://www.bb-c.de/
Am Wiesenpfad 6, 53340 Meckenheim, GERMANY            Email: vab at bb-c.de
Handelsregister: Amtsgericht Bonn, HRB 10513              Schuhgr??e: 46
Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Rainer J.H. Brandt und Volker A. Brandt

"When logic and proportion have fallen sloppy dead"

Hi Jim,

We will be restaging the ZFS community info, most likely on OTN.

The zfs discussion list archive cannot be migrated to the new
list on java.net, but you can pick it up here:

http://www.mail-archive.com/zfs-discuss at opensolaris.org/

We are looking at other ways to make the zfs discuss list archive
available, possibly as a file download.

Thanks, Cindy

On 02/16/13 16:41, Jim Klimov wrote:
> Hello Cindy,
>
> Are there any plans to preserve the official mailing lists''
archives,
> or will they go the way of Jive forums and the future digs for bits
> of knowledge would rely on alternate mirrors and caches?
>
> I understand that Oracle has some business priorities, but retiring
> hardware causes site shutdown? They''ve gotta be kidding, with all
> the buzz about clouds and virtualization ;)
>
> I''d guess, you also are not authorized to say whether Oracle might
> permit re-use (re-hosting) of current OpenSolaris.Org materials or
> even give away the site and domain for community steering and rid
> itself of more black PR by shooting down another public project of
> the Sun legacy (hint: if the site does wither and die in
community''s
> hands - it is not Oracle''s fault; and if it lives on - Oracle did
> something good for karma... win-win, at no price).
>
> Thanks for your helpfulness in the past years,
> //Jim
> _______________________________________________
> zfs-discuss mailing list
> zfs-discuss at opensolaris.org
> http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss