Xen users - Nov 2007 - ragarding xen in sles10

Hi
 
I am new to xen . I need to develop one project that will back up
virtual machine from host. Is there any "script which will support
this"
in host. Or any script which is used to list files of virtual machines
in the host..........please help me in this regards

Waiting for reply
Thanking you

Namitha


_______________________________________________
Xen-devel mailing list
Xen-devel@lists.xensource.com
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Hi there,

If you google around a bit you may find some backup scripts that people have 
hacked up...  I can''t think of a specific project you''d go to
off the top of
my head.
> I am new to xen . I need to develop one project that will back up
> virtual machine from host. Is there any "script which will support
this"
> in host. Or any script which is used to list files of virtual machines
> in the host..........please help me in this regards
You could parse the config file to figure out what disk files are used by the 
VM.  Or you could use the xenstore-* (e.g. xenstore-ls) commands to read 
details from Xenstore regarding what the paths of the virtual disks are.

Or, more simply, you could just adopt a naming strategy for your
domain''s
virtual disks based on their config file name / hostname.  And then just code 
your backup scripts to understand that (e.g. domain with "hostname"
has
config file /etc/xen/hostname and disk /vm-disks/hostname.disk).  It''ll
be
site-specific but if it works for you, that''s what counts.

Personally, I just rsync backup the contents of /mnt/vm/, which contains all 
my VM''s virtual disks (having shut the VMs down first).  I also 
rsync /etc/xen/ to my backup device.  This doesn''t record which disk
belongs
to which VM but it does make it easy to restore the whole lot at once (just 
rsync them back).  If I ever need to restore a particular VM I can do it 
manually without to much hassle.

Actually, I''ve been working on a much more advanced backup script for
backing
up VMs in a home / smaller deployment environment.  I''m waiting on word
from
my employers regarding whether I can release this publically.  For anyone 
interested, there''s some details at 
http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~maw48/vm-backup-pictures/ - but don''t hold
your
breath for it to be released because it could take a long while to get 
permission, if it''s allowed at all.

Cheers,
Mark

-- 
Dave: Just a question. What use is a unicyle with no seat?  And no pedals!
Mark: To answer a question with a question: What use is a skateboard?
Dave: Skateboards have wheels.
Mark: My wheel has a wheel!

_______________________________________________
Xen-devel mailing list
Xen-devel@lists.xensource.com
http://lists.xensource.com/xen-devel

Hi Namitha,

I hope you don''t mind but I''ve copied my reply onto xen-users
for public
visibility.
> I am trying to create two privileged domains for better performance.....
> I have set up XEN on sles10 sp1. Created VMs on that.
>
> Is it possible to create two domain0''s? If it is possible how can
we
> make them to manage VMs.
>
> I tried a lot to get document on such topics...but I failed to get such
> document.
dom0 is much like a domU but it is special in a number of ways.  Two important 
ways are:

1) can access the real hardware - by default dom0 owns all the real hardware 
in the system
2) can manage other domains

Number 1 can be extended to domUs using the pciback / pcifront drivers.  This 
allows you to dedicate PCI devices to PV domUs.  If you want, you can set 
these domUs to be "backends" for certain devices, so that they export
their
devices as virtual disks or virtual network interfaces to other domUs, just 
like dom0 does.  Or they can just use the devices themselves to improve 
performance.  Giving a domain this ability means that you are trusting it as 
much as dom0.

A more restricted form of this would be to just dedicate, say, a serial port 
to a domain.  There''s basic support so that HVM domains can be given 
dedicated access to USB devices.  And in the xen-unstable tree it''s now
possible to dedicate PCI devices to HVM domUs - and isolate them so they 
can''t damage the system.

Number 2 is currently reserved only for dom0 and there''s no way of
allowing
another domain to share this function.

There are lots of possibilities here, depending on what you''re trying
to
achieve.

Cheers,
Mark
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: M.A. Williamson [mailto:maw48@hermes.cam.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Mark
> Williamson
> Sent: Monday, 3 December 2007 9:26 AM
> To: xen-devel@lists.xensource.com
> Cc: P, Namitha
> Subject: Re: [Xen-devel] ragarding xen in sles10
>
> Hi there,
>
> If you google around a bit you may find some backup scripts that people
> have
> hacked up...  I can''t think of a specific project you''d
go to off the
> top of
> my head.
>
> > I am new to xen . I need to develop one project that will back up
> > virtual machine from host. Is there any "script which will
support
>
> this"
>
> > in host. Or any script which is used to list files of virtual machines
> > in the host..........please help me in this regards
>
> You could parse the config file to figure out what disk files are used
> by the
> VM.  Or you could use the xenstore-* (e.g. xenstore-ls) commands to read
>
> details from Xenstore regarding what the paths of the virtual disks are.
>
> Or, more simply, you could just adopt a naming strategy for your
> domain''s
> virtual disks based on their config file name / hostname.  And then just
> code
> your backup scripts to understand that (e.g. domain with
"hostname" has
> config file /etc/xen/hostname and disk /vm-disks/hostname.disk). 
It''ll
> be
> site-specific but if it works for you, that''s what counts.
>
> Personally, I just rsync backup the contents of /mnt/vm/, which contains
> all
> my VM''s virtual disks (having shut the VMs down first).  I also
> rsync /etc/xen/ to my backup device.  This doesn''t record which
disk
> belongs
> to which VM but it does make it easy to restore the whole lot at once
> (just
> rsync them back).  If I ever need to restore a particular VM I can do it
>
> manually without to much hassle.
>
> Actually, I''ve been working on a much more advanced backup script
for
> backing
> up VMs in a home / smaller deployment environment.  I''m waiting on
word
> from
> my employers regarding whether I can release this publically.  For
> anyone
> interested, there''s some details at
> http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~maw48/vm-backup-pictures/ - but don''t
hold your
>
> breath for it to be released because it could take a long while to get
> permission, if it''s allowed at all.
>
> Cheers,
> Mark


-- 
Dave: Just a question. What use is a unicyle with no seat?  And no pedals!
Mark: To answer a question with a question: What use is a skateboard?
Dave: Skateboards have wheels.
Mark: My wheel has a wheel!

_______________________________________________
Xen-users mailing list
Xen-users@lists.xensource.com
http://lists.xensource.com/xen-users

> I loaded pciback module using modprobe and tried to unbind a pci device
> (IDE controller with pci id --00:1f.1) from PIIX_IDE and bind it to
> pciback. But it is giving error " write error: no such device".
Please remember that you shouldn''t try and do this with a device you
need to
use in dom0.  You can only do it with "spare" devices that dom0
doesn''t need
to use in order to run (e.g. the IDE controller with dom0''s disk
attached
can''t be passed through).  Whilst you''re playing around with
PCI device
assignment you would ideally use a testing machine that you don''t care
about,
in case you get something wrong.  Don''t learn this stuff on an
important
machine if you can help it!

If you want to pass a device through you need to make sure that a normal 
driver in domain 0 does not grab it, otherwise pciback won''t be able to
seize
it.  This is quite a common problem, since the hotplug routines are very good 
at loading the "real" device driver automatically, which is usually
what you
want - but not in this case!

To make sure pciback does get the device you can do one of the following:

a) follow the instructions in section 1.ii at 
http://wiki.xensource.com/xenwiki/Assign_hardware_to_DomU_with_PCIBack_as_module
to manually unbind the device from the current driver and rebind to pciback
b) use the instructions in section 2 at the wiki page to modify modprobe.conf 
to make sure that pciback gets a chance to grab the device before the normal 
driver for that device does
c) compile pciback statically into the kernel and then put a pciback.hide 
directive onto your kernel command line and reboot

I''d start off with a).  Using the instructions on the wiki page you can
manually unbind the device from whatever its current driver is.  In this 
particular case I think the following command should do that for you:

echo -n "0000:00:1f.1" >
"/sys/bus/pci/devices/0000:00:1f.1/driver/unbind"

That command is just a shorthand for what the instructions on the wiki do.

Then issue your other commands again:
> I am using following command to bind the device....
>
>  echo -n 0000:00:1f.1 > /sys/bus/pci/drivers/pciback/new_slot
>  echo -n 0000:00:1f.1 > /sys/bus/pci/drivers/pciback/bind
and see if this works better.

Cheers,
Mark
> Why it is giving such error?
>
> Thanks and regards
> Namitha
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: M.A. Williamson [mailto:maw48@hermes.cam.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Mark
> Williamson
> Sent: Sunday, 9 December 2007 7:48 AM
> To: P, Namitha
> Cc: xen-users@lists.xensource.com
> Subject: [Xen-users] multiple dom0s (was: Re: [Xen-devel] ragarding xen
> in sles10)
>
> Hi Namitha,
>
> I hope you don''t mind but I''ve copied my reply onto
xen-users for public
>
> visibility.
>
> > I am trying to create two privileged domains for better
>
> performance.....
>
> > I have set up XEN on sles10 sp1. Created VMs on that.
> >
> > Is it possible to create two domain0''s? If it is possible how
can we
> > make them to manage VMs.
> >
> > I tried a lot to get document on such topics...but I failed to get
>
> such
>
> > document.
>
> dom0 is much like a domU but it is special in a number of ways.  Two
> important
> ways are:
>
> 1) can access the real hardware - by default dom0 owns all the real
> hardware
> in the system
> 2) can manage other domains
>
> Number 1 can be extended to domUs using the pciback / pcifront drivers.
> This
> allows you to dedicate PCI devices to PV domUs.  If you want, you can
> set
> these domUs to be "backends" for certain devices, so that they
export
> their
> devices as virtual disks or virtual network interfaces to other domUs,
> just
> like dom0 does.  Or they can just use the devices themselves to improve
> performance.  Giving a domain this ability means that you are trusting
> it as
> much as dom0.
>
> A more restricted form of this would be to just dedicate, say, a serial
> port
> to a domain.  There''s basic support so that HVM domains can be
given
> dedicated access to USB devices.  And in the xen-unstable tree
it''s now
> possible to dedicate PCI devices to HVM domUs - and isolate them so they
>
> can''t damage the system.
>
> Number 2 is currently reserved only for dom0 and there''s no way of
> allowing
> another domain to share this function.
>
> There are lots of possibilities here, depending on what you''re
trying to
>
> achieve.
>
> Cheers,
> Mark
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: M.A. Williamson [mailto:maw48@hermes.cam.ac.uk] On Behalf Of
>
> Mark
>
> > Williamson
> > Sent: Monday, 3 December 2007 9:26 AM
> > To: xen-devel@lists.xensource.com
> > Cc: P, Namitha
> > Subject: Re: [Xen-devel] ragarding xen in sles10
> >
> > Hi there,
> >
> > If you google around a bit you may find some backup scripts that
>
> people
>
> > have
> > hacked up...  I can''t think of a specific project
you''d go to off the
> > top of
> > my head.
> >
> > > I am new to xen . I need to develop one project that will back up
> > > virtual machine from host. Is there any "script which will
support
> >
> > this"
> >
> > > in host. Or any script which is used to list files of virtual
>
> machines
>
> > > in the host..........please help me in this regards
> >
> > You could parse the config file to figure out what disk files are used
> > by the
> > VM.  Or you could use the xenstore-* (e.g. xenstore-ls) commands to
>
> read
>
> > details from Xenstore regarding what the paths of the virtual disks
>
> are.
>
> > Or, more simply, you could just adopt a naming strategy for your
> > domain''s
> > virtual disks based on their config file name / hostname.  And then
>
> just
>
> > code
> > your backup scripts to understand that (e.g. domain with
"hostname"
>
> has
>
> > config file /etc/xen/hostname and disk /vm-disks/hostname.disk).
>
> It''ll
>
> > be
> > site-specific but if it works for you, that''s what counts.
> >
> > Personally, I just rsync backup the contents of /mnt/vm/, which
>
> contains
>
> > all
> > my VM''s virtual disks (having shut the VMs down first).  I
also
> > rsync /etc/xen/ to my backup device.  This doesn''t record
which disk
> > belongs
> > to which VM but it does make it easy to restore the whole lot at once
> > (just
> > rsync them back).  If I ever need to restore a particular VM I can do
>
> it
>
> > manually without to much hassle.
> >
> > Actually, I''ve been working on a much more advanced backup
script for
> > backing
> > up VMs in a home / smaller deployment environment.  I''m
waiting on
>
> word
>
> > from
> > my employers regarding whether I can release this publically.  For
> > anyone
> > interested, there''s some details at
> > http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~maw48/vm-backup-pictures/ - but
don''t hold
>
> your
>
> > breath for it to be released because it could take a long while to get
> > permission, if it''s allowed at all.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Mark


-- 
Dave: Just a question. What use is a unicyle with no seat?  And no pedals!
Mark: To answer a question with a question: What use is a skateboard?
Dave: Skateboards have wheels.
Mark: My wheel has a wheel!

_______________________________________________
Xen-users mailing list
Xen-users@lists.xensource.com
http://lists.xensource.com/xen-users

Hi Mark,


I agree with your definition for dom0 (" dom0 is much like a domU but it 
is special in a number of ways ...")


But, there is an alternative way , you can use a domU as an "halted" 
dom0, and when your dom0 crashed you can boot your system with domU as a 
dom0 (and your dom0 as a domU).


I have a domU system (based on LVM partition) so I changed my menu.lst 
file (grub.conf) to :


title 2.6.18-xen31
        root (hd0,0)
        kernel /xen-3.1.0.gz dom0_mem=256M
        #module /vmlinuz-2.6.18-xen ro root=/dev/VolGroup00/LogVol00 
selinux=0
        #module /initrd-2.6.18-xen.img
        module /vmlinuz-2.6.18-xen ro root=/dev/VolGroup00/LogVol02 
selinux=0
        module /initrd-2.6.18-xen.img


(LogVol00 is my root file system for the original dom0 and LogVol2 is 
the domU root file system)


a better way to do it is something like:


title 2.6.18-xen31
        root (hd0,0)
        kernel /xen-3.1.0.gz dom0_mem=256M
        module /vmlinuz-2.6.18-xen ro root=/dev/VolGroup00/LogVol00 
selinux=0
        module /initrd-2.6.18-xen.img
title 2 (alternative system)
        kernel / xen-3.10.gz .....
        module /vmlinuz-2.6.18-xen ro root=/dev/VolGroup00/LogVol02 
selinux=0
        module /initrd-2.6.18-xen.img


(and, of course you need to install xend in your domU )


In regular my domU serving as a domU system but,  when I have a problem 
in my dom0, I can reboot my system and use my domU as a "rescue" 
environment or alternative dom0 system .



I don''t know if its stable enough ... I just tried  it in the first
time.


Any comments ?


- Doron



 

Mark Williamson wrote:
>> I loaded pciback module using modprobe and tried to unbind a pci device
>> (IDE controller with pci id --00:1f.1) from PIIX_IDE and bind it to
>> pciback. But it is giving error " write error: no such
device".
>>     
>
> Please remember that you shouldn''t try and do this with a device
you need to
> use in dom0.  You can only do it with "spare" devices that dom0
doesn''t need
> to use in order to run (e.g. the IDE controller with dom0''s disk
attached
> can''t be passed through).  Whilst you''re playing around
with PCI device
> assignment you would ideally use a testing machine that you don''t
care about,
> in case you get something wrong.  Don''t learn this stuff on an
important
> machine if you can help it!
>
> If you want to pass a device through you need to make sure that a normal 
> driver in domain 0 does not grab it, otherwise pciback won''t be
able to seize
> it.  This is quite a common problem, since the hotplug routines are very
good
> at loading the "real" device driver automatically, which is
usually what you
> want - but not in this case!
>
> To make sure pciback does get the device you can do one of the following:
>
> a) follow the instructions in section 1.ii at 
>
http://wiki.xensource.com/xenwiki/Assign_hardware_to_DomU_with_PCIBack_as_module
> to manually unbind the device from the current driver and rebind to pciback
> b) use the instructions in section 2 at the wiki page to modify
modprobe.conf
> to make sure that pciback gets a chance to grab the device before the
normal
> driver for that device does
> c) compile pciback statically into the kernel and then put a pciback.hide 
> directive onto your kernel command line and reboot
>
> I''d start off with a).  Using the instructions on the wiki page
you can
> manually unbind the device from whatever its current driver is.  In this 
> particular case I think the following command should do that for you:
>
> echo -n "0000:00:1f.1" >
"/sys/bus/pci/devices/0000:00:1f.1/driver/unbind"
>
> That command is just a shorthand for what the instructions on the wiki do.
>
> Then issue your other commands again:
>
>   
>> I am using following command to bind the device....
>>
>>  echo -n 0000:00:1f.1 > /sys/bus/pci/drivers/pciback/new_slot
>>  echo -n 0000:00:1f.1 > /sys/bus/pci/drivers/pciback/bind
>>     
>
> and see if this works better.
>
> Cheers,
> Mark
>
>   
>> Why it is giving such error?
>>
>> Thanks and regards
>> Namitha
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: M.A. Williamson [mailto:maw48@hermes.cam.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Mark
>> Williamson
>> Sent: Sunday, 9 December 2007 7:48 AM
>> To: P, Namitha
>> Cc: xen-users@lists.xensource.com
>> Subject: [Xen-users] multiple dom0s (was: Re: [Xen-devel] ragarding xen
>> in sles10)
>>
>> Hi Namitha,
>>
>> I hope you don''t mind but I''ve copied my reply onto
xen-users for public
>>
>> visibility.
>>
>>     
>>> I am trying to create two privileged domains for better
>>>       
>> performance.....
>>
>>     
>>> I have set up XEN on sles10 sp1. Created VMs on that.
>>>
>>> Is it possible to create two domain0''s? If it is possible
how can we
>>> make them to manage VMs.
>>>
>>> I tried a lot to get document on such topics...but I failed to get
>>>       
>> such
>>
>>     
>>> document.
>>>       
>> dom0 is much like a domU but it is special in a number of ways.  Two
>> important
>> ways are:
>>
>> 1) can access the real hardware - by default dom0 owns all the real
>> hardware
>> in the system
>> 2) can manage other domains
>>
>> Number 1 can be extended to domUs using the pciback / pcifront drivers.
>> This
>> allows you to dedicate PCI devices to PV domUs.  If you want, you can
>> set
>> these domUs to be "backends" for certain devices, so that
they export
>> their
>> devices as virtual disks or virtual network interfaces to other domUs,
>> just
>> like dom0 does.  Or they can just use the devices themselves to improve
>> performance.  Giving a domain this ability means that you are trusting
>> it as
>> much as dom0.
>>
>> A more restricted form of this would be to just dedicate, say, a serial
>> port
>> to a domain.  There''s basic support so that HVM domains can be
given
>> dedicated access to USB devices.  And in the xen-unstable tree
it''s now
>> possible to dedicate PCI devices to HVM domUs - and isolate them so
they
>>
>> can''t damage the system.
>>
>> Number 2 is currently reserved only for dom0 and there''s no
way of
>> allowing
>> another domain to share this function.
>>
>> There are lots of possibilities here, depending on what you''re
trying to
>>
>> achieve.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Mark
>>
>>     
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: M.A. Williamson [mailto:maw48@hermes.cam.ac.uk] On Behalf Of
>>>       
>> Mark
>>
>>     
>>> Williamson
>>> Sent: Monday, 3 December 2007 9:26 AM
>>> To: xen-devel@lists.xensource.com
>>> Cc: P, Namitha
>>> Subject: Re: [Xen-devel] ragarding xen in sles10
>>>
>>> Hi there,
>>>
>>> If you google around a bit you may find some backup scripts that
>>>       
>> people
>>
>>     
>>> have
>>> hacked up...  I can''t think of a specific project
you''d go to off the
>>> top of
>>> my head.
>>>
>>>       
>>>> I am new to xen . I need to develop one project that will back
up
>>>> virtual machine from host. Is there any "script which will
support
>>>>         
>>> this"
>>>
>>>       
>>>> in host. Or any script which is used to list files of virtual
>>>>         
>> machines
>>
>>     
>>>> in the host..........please help me in this regards
>>>>         
>>> You could parse the config file to figure out what disk files are
used
>>> by the
>>> VM.  Or you could use the xenstore-* (e.g. xenstore-ls) commands to
>>>       
>> read
>>
>>     
>>> details from Xenstore regarding what the paths of the virtual disks
>>>       
>> are.
>>
>>     
>>> Or, more simply, you could just adopt a naming strategy for your
>>> domain''s
>>> virtual disks based on their config file name / hostname.  And then
>>>       
>> just
>>
>>     
>>> code
>>> your backup scripts to understand that (e.g. domain with
"hostname"
>>>       
>> has
>>
>>     
>>> config file /etc/xen/hostname and disk /vm-disks/hostname.disk).
>>>       
>> It''ll
>>
>>     
>>> be
>>> site-specific but if it works for you, that''s what counts.
>>>
>>> Personally, I just rsync backup the contents of /mnt/vm/, which
>>>       
>> contains
>>
>>     
>>> all
>>> my VM''s virtual disks (having shut the VMs down first).  I
also
>>> rsync /etc/xen/ to my backup device.  This doesn''t record
which disk
>>> belongs
>>> to which VM but it does make it easy to restore the whole lot at
once
>>> (just
>>> rsync them back).  If I ever need to restore a particular VM I can
do
>>>       
>> it
>>
>>     
>>> manually without to much hassle.
>>>
>>> Actually, I''ve been working on a much more advanced backup
script for
>>> backing
>>> up VMs in a home / smaller deployment environment.  I''m
waiting on
>>>       
>> word
>>
>>     
>>> from
>>> my employers regarding whether I can release this publically.  For
>>> anyone
>>> interested, there''s some details at
>>> http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~maw48/vm-backup-pictures/ - but
don''t hold
>>>       
>> your
>>
>>     
>>> breath for it to be released because it could take a long while to
get
>>> permission, if it''s allowed at all.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Mark
>>>       
>
>
>
>   


_______________________________________________
Xen-users mailing list
Xen-users@lists.xensource.com
http://lists.xensource.com/xen-users

On Sun December 9 2007 8:59:02 pm Mark Williamson wrote:
> c) compile pciback statically into the kernel and then put a pciback.hide
> directive onto your kernel command line and reboot
CONFIG_XEN_BACKEND=y
CONFIG_XEN_BLKDEV_BACKEND=m
CONFIG_XEN_NETDEV_BACKEND=m
CONFIG_XEN_PCIDEV_BACKEND=m
CONFIG_XEN_PCIDEV_BACKEND_VPCI=y

I have the above in my fedora xen kernel. Is that sufficient. (BTW, SuSE has 
the first line as ''m'' also.)

_______________________________________________
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http://lists.xensource.com/xen-users

> On Sun December 9 2007 8:59:02 pm Mark Williamson wrote:
> > c) compile pciback statically into the kernel and then put a
pciback.hide
> > directive onto your kernel command line and reboot
>
> CONFIG_XEN_BACKEND=y
> CONFIG_XEN_BLKDEV_BACKEND=m
> CONFIG_XEN_NETDEV_BACKEND=m
> CONFIG_XEN_PCIDEV_BACKEND=m
> CONFIG_XEN_PCIDEV_BACKEND_VPCI=y
>
> I have the above in my fedora xen kernel. Is that sufficient. (BTW, SuSE
> has the first line as ''m'' also.)
This means that the PCI backend is built as a module (the additional 
XEN_PCIDEV_BACKEND_VPCI=y is just configuring an option, not building 
something statically into the kernel).

You can still use PCI passthrough like that, but just putting pciback.hide on 
your kernel command line won''t work - you''d need to pass them
to the module
at load time.  Whatsmore, you need to make sure that pciback is able to claim 
those devices, which is only possible if they''re not bound to another
driver.
So either you need to make sure pciback is loaded before other drivers for 
the hardware, or you need to unbind the hardware from whatever driver has 
grabbed it and then rebind it to pciback.

There are some instructions at: 
http://wiki.xensource.com/xenwiki/Assign_hardware_to_DomU_with_PCIBack_as_module
which may help you.  I''ve not actually tested them myself but last time
I
looked through them they looked fairly sane.

You ought to make sure you''re familiar with the drawbacks and
limitations of
PCI passthrough before deploying it in production, as there are a few fairly 
significant caveats (e.g. that the domain with PCI hardware is effectively as 
privileged as dom0, since it can probably abuse that hardware to take over 
the machine if it acts maliciously).  VT-d will probably help mitigate some 
of these limitations eventually - support for VT-d with HVM domains is 
already in xen-unstable, but not for PV yet, I think.

Cheers,
Mark

-- 
Dave: Just a question. What use is a unicyle with no seat?  And no pedals!
Mark: To answer a question with a question: What use is a skateboard?
Dave: Skateboards have wheels.
Mark: My wheel has a wheel!

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