Xen users - Oct 2007 - how to install Windows without hardware support

Hi all
1) Is installing Windows on non-VT hardware possible....in full
virtualization mode.?
  Its clear that windows cannot be installed in paravirtualized mode without
VT hardware support. But can we install windows VMs in full virtualization
mode ( like VMware or Qemu )  in Xen.
What if someone cannot afford VT hardware and still wants to virtualize his
data center with Xen.
and is ready to take the performance hit , just for his Windows VMs.

For this , do we have to use Qemu separately?
Can we incoporate these emulated Windows VMs with the other Xen VMs(linux
VMs ) for Xen VM management, considering only non -VT hardware.

Thanks
 Suyash


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No... You cannot install windows in a non-VT hardware using Xen as your VMM.

With QEMU is possible, but u gonna have a lot of performance problem... =/

If you wanna virtualize your data center and dont have the VT tech,
you should use paravirtualization... remember that paravirtualization
has some advantages, like better IO.

Att.
Artur

On 10/2/07, suyash jape <suyashjape@gmail.com>
wrote:
> Hi all
> 1) Is installing Windows on non-VT hardware possible....in full
> virtualization mode.?
>   Its clear that windows cannot be installed in paravirtualized mode
without
> VT hardware support. But can we install windows VMs in full virtualization
> mode ( like VMware or Qemu )  in Xen.
> What if someone cannot afford VT hardware and still wants to virtualize his
> data center with Xen.
> and is ready to take the performance hit , just for his Windows VMs.
>
> For this , do we have to use Qemu separately?
> Can we incoporate these emulated Windows VMs with the other Xen VMs(linux
> VMs ) for Xen VM management, considering only non -VT hardware.
>
> Thanks
>  Suyash
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Xen-users mailing list
> Xen-users@lists.xensource.com
> http://lists.xensource.com/xen-users
>
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Yes.i agree paravirtualization is better.But i was wondering if we have no
VT hardware and still want to put windows on Xen. Can Qemu VMs be managed
through the xen interface.

On 10/3/07, Artur Baruchi <mail.baruchi@gmail.com>
wrote:
>
> No... You cannot install windows in a non-VT hardware using Xen as your
> VMM.
>
> With QEMU is possible, but u gonna have a lot of performance problem... =/
>
> If you wanna virtualize your data center and dont have the VT tech,
> you should use paravirtualization... remember that paravirtualization
> has some advantages, like better IO.
>
> Att.
> Artur
>
> On 10/2/07, suyash jape <suyashjape@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Hi all
> > 1) Is installing Windows on non-VT hardware possible....in full
> > virtualization mode.?
> >   Its clear that windows cannot be installed in paravirtualized mode
> without
> > VT hardware support. But can we install windows VMs in full
> virtualization
> > mode ( like VMware or Qemu )  in Xen.
> > What if someone cannot afford VT hardware and still wants to
virtualize
> his
> > data center with Xen.
> > and is ready to take the performance hit , just for his Windows VMs.
> >
> > For this , do we have to use Qemu separately?
> > Can we incoporate these emulated Windows VMs with the other Xen
> VMs(linux
> > VMs ) for Xen VM management, considering only non -VT hardware.
> >
> > Thanks
> >  Suyash
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Xen-users mailing list
> > Xen-users@lists.xensource.com
> > http://lists.xensource.com/xen-users
> >
>

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Artur Baruchi wrote:
> 
> If you wanna virtualize your data center and dont have the VT tech,
> you should use paravirtualization... remember that paravirtualization
> has some advantages, like better IO.
When one is trying to "virtualize a data center" (aka server 
consolidation) one is *usually* talking about migrating pre-existing 
servers and services, often third party applications or "quantity one"
in house applications. These are often written for *older* versions of 
operating systems, and often closed source OSes like Windows NT, 2000 
and 2003, not to mention Solaris 7 through 9.

Paravirtualization is *not* possible in those environments, and the 
*first* thing medium sized companies would do when you called them for 
support of an app running on a non-standard kernel will be to blame the 
kernel.

So you either cough up the cash for a server that supports VT (and this 
winds up being a cost *savings* in the long run), or you use something 
like VMware Server and live with the less than desirable performance.

When you figure the cost of buying a new low to mid range server to 
replace 4 or 5 existing servers, with power, cooling and space 
reclaimation your ROI is pretty good.


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> When you figure the cost of buying a new low to mid range server to
> replace 4 or 5 existing servers, with power, cooling and space
> reclaimation your ROI is pretty good.
This, for me, is one of the real benefits of virtualisation. We are
mainly a HP shop so I''ll use their products as a reference - the DL140
can be had for a few thousand $AUD and has basic hot swap RAID support,
but no redundancy in PSU''s, and I think no redundancy in fans, and
probably not in memory either. If you want those sort of features you
have to start spending 3-5 times that on something like a DL380, but you
end up with a server which probably has way more power than you need. By
using virtualisation you can get the higher reliability and fault
tolerance of a more expensive system, instead of lower reliability and
fault tolerance on several less expensive systems.

Sure you''ve now got all your eggs in one basket, but it''s a
much higher
quality basket :)

James


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As stated before, the answer is no, you cannot run Windows on Xen without VT
hardware.  It isn''t just Windows, either - you cannot do "Full
Virtualization" on Xen for any operating system without VT hardware.  If
you don''t have VT hardware, you must use paravirtualized mode, which
limits your O/S choices to Linux, OpenSolaris, and a few BSD flavors.
 
--Nick
>>> On 2007/10/02 at 22:39, "suyash jape"
<suyashjape@gmail.com> wrote:
Yes.i agree paravirtualization is better.But i was wondering if we have no VT
hardware and still want to put windows on Xen. Can Qemu VMs be managed through
the xen interface.

On 10/3/07, Artur Baruchi <mail.baruchi@gmail.com> wrote:

No... You cannot install windows in a non-VT hardware using Xen as your VMM.

With QEMU is possible, but u gonna have a lot of performance problem... =/

If you wanna virtualize your data center and dont have the VT tech, 
you should use paravirtualization... remember that paravirtualization
has some advantages, like better IO.

Att.
Artur

On 10/2/07, suyash jape <suyashjape@gmail.com >
wrote:
> Hi all
> 1) Is installing Windows on non-VT hardware possible....in full
> virtualization mode.?
>   Its clear that windows cannot be installed in paravirtualized mode
without
> VT hardware support. But can we install windows VMs in full virtualization
> mode ( like VMware or Qemu )  in Xen.
> What if someone cannot afford VT hardware and still wants to virtualize his
> data center with Xen. 
> and is ready to take the performance hit , just for his Windows VMs.
>
> For this , do we have to use Qemu separately?
> Can we incoporate these emulated Windows VMs with the other Xen VMs(linux 
> VMs ) for Xen VM management, considering only non -VT hardware.
>
> Thanks
>  Suyash
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Xen-users mailing list
> Xen-users@lists.xensource.com 
> http://lists.xensource.com/xen-users 
>



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> Yes.i agree paravirtualization is better.But i was wondering if we have no
> VT hardware and still want to put windows on Xen. Can Qemu VMs be managed
> through the xen interface.
The Xen interface can''t manage QEmu VMs.  However, I understand the 
virt-manager GUI Redhat ship is supposed to have support for both Qemu and 
Xen VMs at some level, so maybe that would help you.

Other systems that can run Windows without VT / SVM with better performance 
than plain QEmu are available too.  e.g. VMware''s products, kQemu, 
VirtualBox.  But none of these will run on a Xen host.

Cheers,
Mark
> Att.
> Artur
>
> On 10/2/07, suyash jape <suyashjape@gmail.com > wrote:
> > Hi all
> > 1) Is installing Windows on non-VT hardware possible....in full
> > virtualization mode.?
> >   Its clear that windows cannot be installed in paravirtualized mode
> > without VT hardware support. But can we install windows VMs in full
> > virtualization mode ( like VMware or Qemu )  in Xen.
> > What if someone cannot afford VT hardware and still wants to
virtualize
> > his data center with Xen.
> > and is ready to take the performance hit , just for his Windows VMs.
> >
> > For this , do we have to use Qemu separately?
> > Can we incoporate these emulated Windows VMs with the other Xen
VMs(linux
> > VMs ) for Xen VM management, considering only non -VT hardware.
> >
> > Thanks
> >  Suyash
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Xen-users mailing list
> > Xen-users@lists.xensource.com
> > http://lists.xensource.com/xen-users


-- 
Dave: Just a question. What use is a unicyle with no seat?  And no pedals!
Mark: To answer a question with a question: What use is a skateboard?
Dave: Skateboards have wheels.
Mark: My wheel has a wheel!

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> Hi all
> 1) Is installing Windows on non-VT hardware possible....in full
> virtualization mode.?
>   Its clear that windows cannot be installed in paravirtualized mode
> without VT hardware support. But can we install windows VMs in full
> virtualization mode ( like VMware or Qemu )  in Xen.
> What if someone cannot afford VT hardware and still wants to virtualize his
> data center with Xen.
> and is ready to take the performance hit , just for his Windows VMs.
>
> For this , do we have to use Qemu separately?
> Can we incoporate these emulated Windows VMs with the other Xen VMs(linux
> VMs ) for Xen VM management, considering only non -VT hardware.
This question has come up occasionally, but unfortunately there''s no 
straightforward way to run unmodified OSes under Xen.  For Xen (unlike 
VMware) the VT / SVM hardware isn''t there as an optional extra, it
really is
required to support running unmodified guests :-(

However, as you say, if you play around with something like QEmu you would be 
able to (slowly!) run unmodified guests.

You could try running each Qemu in a separate XenLinux virtual machine, which 
would enable you to migrate the machines around using xm migrate, do 
suspend / resume etc.  But it wouldn''t be integrated with
Qemu''s control
interface, which you''d still need to access in the usual way.

If you did this, you''d probably want to configue Qemu to export the
Windows
VM''s display directly over VNC - displaying to the XenLinux framebuffer
seems
at best like a waste of time, and possibly (even) slower to work with.

Hope that helps,
Cheers,
Mark

-- 
Dave: Just a question. What use is a unicyle with no seat?  And no pedals!
Mark: To answer a question with a question: What use is a skateboard?
Dave: Skateboards have wheels.
Mark: My wheel has a wheel!

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