Hello list, I recently was searching for information about 3D acceleration in a Xen guest, but sadly I found only some probably outdated information from 2005. Is it possible to use 3D acceleration to play games? I plan to buy a new CPU in order to get this Intel-VT technology, but this is the main condition... If yes, are there any other requirements? Another small question: Does Xen Support Seamless Window? Thank you in advance! Cheers, Daniel _______________________________________________ Xen-users mailing list Xen-users@lists.xensource.com http://lists.xensource.com/xen-users
On Mon, Sep 24, 2007 at 03:05:15PM +0200, Daniel Spies wrote:> > I recently was searching for information about 3D acceleration in a Xen > guest, but sadly I found only some probably outdated information from 2005. > Is it possible to use 3D acceleration to play games? I plan to buy a new > CPU in order to get this Intel-VT technology, but this is the main > condition... If yes, are there any other requirements?Its not supported in a generic way that works with 3d-applications in windows/linux/whatever running in the domU. The only way to use 3d-applications at the moment is running i.e. linux in a domU and using http://www.cs.toronto.edu/~andreslc/xen-gl/ for GL-applications to run those on the graphiccard attached to dom0.> Another small question: Does Xen Support Seamless Window?No. Guess the most performant way to get this is to use virtual- box, afaik they can also use the svm/vt-extension of cpus nowadays. Christian _______________________________________________ Xen-users mailing list Xen-users@lists.xensource.com http://lists.xensource.com/xen-users
Thanks for the quick reply! On Mon, 24 Sep 2007 15:19:45 +0200, Christian Horn <chorn@fluxcoil.net> wrote:> On Mon, Sep 24, 2007 at 03:05:15PM +0200, Daniel Spies wrote: >> >> I recently was searching for information about 3D acceleration in a Xen >> guest, but sadly I found only some probably outdated information from > 2005. >> Is it possible to use 3D acceleration to play games? I plan to buy a new >> CPU in order to get this Intel-VT technology, but this is the main >> condition... If yes, are there any other requirements? > > Its not supported in a generic way that works with 3d-applications in > windows/linux/whatever running in the domU. > The only way to use 3d-applications at the momentWhat does "at the moment" mean? Is this a planned feature, or even already in development?> is running i.e. linux > in a domU and using http://www.cs.toronto.edu/~andreslc/xen-gl/ > for GL-applications to run those on the graphiccard attached to > dom0.I actually need multi-threaded D3D support. (But OpenGL is useful for other apps)> > >> Another small question: Does Xen Support Seamless Window? > No. Guess the most performant way to get this is to use virtual- > box, afaik they can also use the svm/vt-extension of cpus nowadays.Never mind, this is not that important, and I think Virtual Box does not allow 3D acceleration anyway. Even VMWare, allowing simple DirectX8 support, still emulated a 3d graphics card, what leads to very poor performance. Cheers, Daniel _______________________________________________ Xen-users mailing list Xen-users@lists.xensource.com http://lists.xensource.com/xen-users
Daniel Spies wrote:> Thanks for the quick reply! > > On Mon, 24 Sep 2007 15:19:45 +0200, Christian Horn > <chorn@fluxcoil.net> > wrote: >> On Mon, Sep 24, 2007 at 03:05:15PM +0200, Daniel Spies wrote: >>> >>> I recently was searching for information about 3D acceleration in a >>> Xen guest, but sadly I found only some probably outdated information >>> from >> 2005. >>> Is it possible to use 3D acceleration to play games? I plan to buy a >>> new CPU in order to get this Intel-VT technology, but this is the >>> main condition... If yes, are there any other requirements? >> >> Its not supported in a generic way that works with 3d-applications in >> windows/linux/whatever running in the domU. >> The only way to use 3d-applications at the moment > > What does "at the moment" mean? Is this a planned feature, or even > already in development?Ian Pratt called for some volunteers on this issue in last Xen-Summit. But I did not see too much activities on this issue yet.> >> is running i.e. linux >> in a domU and using http://www.cs.toronto.edu/~andreslc/xen-gl/ >> for GL-applications to run those on the graphiccard attached to dom0. > > I actually need multi-threaded D3D support. > (But OpenGL is useful for other apps) > >> >> >>> Another small question: Does Xen Support Seamless Window? >> No. Guess the most performant way to get this is to use virtual- box, >> afaik they can also use the svm/vt-extension of cpus nowadays. > > Never mind, this is not that important, and I think Virtual Box does > not allow 3D acceleration anyway. Even VMWare, allowing simple > DirectX8 support, still emulated a 3d graphics card, what leads to > very poor performance. > > Cheers, > Daniel > > > _______________________________________________ > Xen-users mailing list > Xen-users@lists.xensource.com > http://lists.xensource.com/xen-users_______________________________________________ Xen-users mailing list Xen-users@lists.xensource.com http://lists.xensource.com/xen-users
Daniel Spies wrote:> Thanks for the quick reply! > > On Mon, 24 Sep 2007 15:19:45 +0200, Christian Horn <chorn@fluxcoil.net> > wrote: > >> On Mon, Sep 24, 2007 at 03:05:15PM +0200, Daniel Spies wrote: >> >>> I recently was searching for information about 3D acceleration in a Xen >>> guest, but sadly I found only some probably outdated information from >>> >> 2005. >> >>> Is it possible to use 3D acceleration to play games? I plan to buy a new >>> CPU in order to get this Intel-VT technology, but this is the main >>> condition... If yes, are there any other requirements? >>> >> Its not supported in a generic way that works with 3d-applications in >> windows/linux/whatever running in the domU. >> The only way to use 3d-applications at the moment >> > > What does "at the moment" mean? Is this a planned feature, or even already > in development? >It''s dependent on the video chipset manufacturers publishing specs, such as ATI just did. (Yay, ATI.). _______________________________________________ Xen-users mailing list Xen-users@lists.xensource.com http://lists.xensource.com/xen-users
> is running i.e. linux > in a domU and using http://www.cs.toronto.edu/~andreslc/xen-gl/ > for GL-applications to run those on the graphiccard attached to > dom0.> I actually need multi-threaded D3D support. > (But OpenGL is useful for other apps) Yah, I don''t support D3D or Windows (and that is very unlikely to happen in the future). You can always try to stack D3D on top of OpenGL with wine, but that''s unlikely to perform decently (or provide multi-threading.) > What does "at the moment" mean? Is this a planned feature, or even already > in development? > It''s dependent on the video chipset manufacturers publishing specs, > such as ATI just did. (Yay, ATI.). I disagree, it depends on people porting the 3D API''s to virtual machine-friendly libraries, which is what vmgl (old xen-gl) does. ATI releasing the specs is a promising step for enabling open-source drivers. But from my p.o.v. that only means we''ll get robust xen dom0 drivers, instead of hacking the few parts of the driver that are visible and praying. Providing 3D accel to domU''s is another business. My two cents Andres _______________________________________________ Xen-users mailing list Xen-users@lists.xensource.com http://lists.xensource.com/xen-users
Thanks for all your messages! On Mon, 24 Sep 2007 14:00:43 -0400, Andres Lagar-Cavilla <andreslc@cs.toronto.edu> wrote:> > is running i.e. linux >> in a domU and using http://www.cs.toronto.edu/~andreslc/xen-gl/ >> for GL-applications to run those on the graphiccard attached to >> dom0. > > > I actually need multi-threaded D3D support. > > (But OpenGL is useful for other apps) > > Yah, I don''t support D3D or Windows (and that is very unlikely to happen > in the future). You can always try to stack D3D on top of OpenGL with > wine, but that''s unlikely to perform decently (or provide > multi-threading.)Wine is nice, but fails with high-end games due to D3D and bad performance. And another problem: I play Call of Duty which works pretty good through Wine. But if I want to play on servers having PunkBuster enabled, I will get kicked because that piece does not run through wine. And this is one example of hundreds...> > > What does "at the moment" mean? Is this a planned feature, or even > already > > in development? > > > It''s dependent on the video chipset manufacturers publishing specs, > > such as ATI just did. (Yay, ATI.). > > I disagree, it depends on people porting the 3D API''s to virtual > machine-friendly libraries, which is what vmgl (old xen-gl) does. > > ATI releasing the specs is a promising step for enabling open-source > drivers. But from my p.o.v. that only means we''ll get robust xen dom0 > drivers, instead of hacking the few parts of the driver that are visible > and praying. Providing 3D accel to domU''s is another business. > > My two cents > Andres >What would you all suggest to me? 1) Wait until VirtualBox finished it''s 3D Acc support and use it. 2) Wait for XEN to support 3D Acc (needs new Hardware) What to buy now or later? NVIDIA which already has "good" Linux support in their drivers (but closed source), or wait until ATI provides a good open driver? I just don''t know what I should do now, also duo to lack of knowledge. I just want to avoid these annoying reboots and play win-games in linux at nearly native speed. Thanks for all suggestions and replies! Daniel _______________________________________________ Xen-users mailing list Xen-users@lists.xensource.com http://lists.xensource.com/xen-users
On Mon, Sep 24, 2007 at 06:50:13PM +0100, Nico Kadel-Garcia wrote:> Daniel Spies wrote: > > > >What does "at the moment" mean? Is this a planned feature, or even already > >in development?Xen is a) server-focused, so such stuff has no priority b) but also opensource, so if enough people come together much is possible ;)> It''s dependent on the video chipset manufacturers publishing specs, > such as ATI just did. (Yay, ATI.).That would be cool, a 3d-driver in dom0 that works without patching, and a 3d-driver in xorg in the domU that just has an option to communicate with the one on dom0 to render stuff. For directx-apps i see not much in near future with xen. The thing next to this is vmware fusion on mac that can run some older directx-version in the virtual machine. Maybe a windows graphicdriver is technically possible that could do this, but again, xen is more serverfocused. Christian _______________________________________________ Xen-users mailing list Xen-users@lists.xensource.com http://lists.xensource.com/xen-users
On Tue, 25 Sep 2007 11:31:35 +0200, Christian Horn <chorn@fluxcoil.net> wrote:> For directx-apps i see not much in near future with xen. The thing next > to this is vmware fusion on mac that can run some older directx-version > in the virtual machine. > Maybe a windows graphicdriver is technically possible that could do this, > but again, xen is more serverfocused.VMWare Fusion has poor performance. I don''t know how they do this reach-through stuff, but I tried Counter Strike 1.6 (very old for those who don''t know it) through VMWare (Workstation - same 3D Support as Fusion) and the game has really poor performance. No OpenGL at all, and D3D does not work properly. Software mode is working, but laggy, slow and ugly. If I remember right they convert D3D 8 into OpenGL, and are still using a virtual graphics adapter instead of reaching it through to the host. This seems with my very basic knowledge still a non-performance solution... Daniel _______________________________________________ Xen-users mailing list Xen-users@lists.xensource.com http://lists.xensource.com/xen-users
Trolle, thank you for this! Just to be sure: Does this mean, I''ll have full DirectX10 support in Windows Vista domU? (Probably buggy, but working) I just don''t understand why there''s this whole discussion about this being impossible, and now you tell me it''s possible with full 3D acceleration and native drivers... If you say that''s true, I''ll go straight to my hardware dealer and get that VT enabling CPU :) Compiling that stuff myself is not the problem, thanks for the warning! Cheers, Daniel On Tue, 25 Sep 2007 12:09:29 +0200, "Trolle Selander" <trolle.selander@gmail.com> wrote:> You could try out the "direct io" branch of Xen that Neocleus is working > on. > It will enable "hardware passthrough" to a HVM domain on current VT/AMD-V > hardware (that is, no need for an IOMMU). This would enable you to assign > your graphics card to your windows HVM and run the native drivers for it, > with full 3D accelleration. It''s under development, but the code is > available and ready for testing, from my understanding, though you''llhave> to check it out via mercurial and compile it yourself. I believe the > intention is to merge it with mainline Xen, once it''s ready. > > /Trolle > > On 9/25/07, Daniel Spies <daniel.spies@fuceekay.com> wrote: >> >> On Tue, 25 Sep 2007 11:31:35 +0200, Christian Horn <chorn@fluxcoil.net> >> wrote: >> >> > For directx-apps i see not much in near future with xen. The thing > next >> > to this is vmware fusion on mac that can run some older > directx-version >> > in the virtual machine. >> > Maybe a windows graphicdriver is technically possible that could do >> this, >> > but again, xen is more serverfocused. >> >> VMWare Fusion has poor performance. I don''t know how they do this >> reach-through >> stuff, but I tried Counter Strike 1.6 (very old for those who don''t know >> it) >> through VMWare (Workstation - same 3D Support as Fusion) and the game > has >> really >> poor performance. No OpenGL at all, and D3D does not work properly. >> Software >> mode is working, but laggy, slow and ugly. If I remember right they >> convert >> >> D3D 8 into OpenGL, and are still using a virtual graphics adapter > instead >> of >> reaching it through to the host. This seems with my very basic knowledge >> still >> a non-performance solution... >> >> Daniel >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Xen-users mailing list >> Xen-users@lists.xensource.com >> http://lists.xensource.com/xen-users >>_______________________________________________ Xen-users mailing list Xen-users@lists.xensource.com http://lists.xensource.com/xen-users
Hi Trolle, Just forwarding this to the list, maybe someone else is interested, too. Thank you again, I understood now. I''ll give it a try and buy the new Hardware soon. I''ll try a ATI card, to support that new open source wind blowing :) As I still have my old card then, I''ll probably try the dual screen stuff too... Thank you one more time for your hints and suggestions! Cheers, Daniel On Tue, 25 Sep 2007 13:42:48 +0200, "Trolle Selander" <trolle.selander@gmail.com> wrote:> Hi Daniel, > > Assigning the graphics card to the HVM with "hardware passthrough" should > indeed enable you to get full DirectX10 support (as long as your graphics > card is a DX10 capable card, that is) under windows. However, I dobelieve> there is currently some "gotchas" in that you have to "hide" the cardfrom> dom0 before you can assign it to the HVM - meaning your actual underlying > Linux install will be running without any display capability at all. If > you > have two graphics cards & two monitors (or a monitor with built-in > monitor-switch), you could could get around this, of course, by assigning > only one of them to the HVM. > There are various limitations and security implications of doing hardware > passthrough without an IOMMU, and as I said, the code is currently > definitely "experimental". However, it IS in the works, the intent is to > merge it with mainline eventually, and it''s not "vaporware", since the > source is already available for testing. Search the xen.devel mailinglist> archives for "direct-io" and "neocleus" if you want to read up on the > current state of things before running of to buy any new hardware. I''m > dying to test it myself, but I just haven''t had the time. > > /Trolle > > On 9/25/07, Daniel Spies <daniel.spies@fuceekay.com> wrote: >> >> Trolle, >> >> thank you for this! Just to be sure: Does this mean, I''ll have full >> DirectX10 support in Windows Vista domU? (Probably buggy, but working) I >> just don''t understand why there''s this whole discussion about this being >> impossible, and now you tell me it''s possible with full 3D acceleration >> and >> native drivers... >> >> If you say that''s true, I''ll go straight to my hardware dealer and get >> that >> VT enabling CPU :) >> >> Compiling that stuff myself is not the problem, thanks for the warning! >> >> Cheers, >> Daniel >> >> On Tue, 25 Sep 2007 12:09:29 +0200, "Trolle Selander" >> <trolle.selander@gmail.com> wrote: >> > You could try out the "direct io" branch of Xen that Neocleus is > working >> > on. >> > It will enable "hardware passthrough" to a HVM domain on current >> VT/AMD-V >> > hardware (that is, no need for an IOMMU). This would enable you to >> assign >> > your graphics card to your windows HVM and run the native drivers for >> it, >> > with full 3D accelleration. It''s under development, but the code is >> > available and ready for testing, from my understanding, though you''ll >> have >> > to check it out via mercurial and compile it yourself. I believe the >> > intention is to merge it with mainline Xen, once it''s ready. >> > >> > /Trolle >> > >> > On 9/25/07, Daniel Spies <daniel.spies@fuceekay.com> wrote: >> >> >> >> On Tue, 25 Sep 2007 11:31:35 +0200, Christian Horn > <chorn@fluxcoil.net> >> >> wrote: >> >> >> >> > For directx-apps i see not much in near future with xen. The thing >> > next >> >> > to this is vmware fusion on mac that can run some older >> > directx-version >> >> > in the virtual machine. >> >> > Maybe a windows graphicdriver is technically possible that could do >> >> this, >> >> > but again, xen is more serverfocused. >> >> >> >> VMWare Fusion has poor performance. I don''t know how they do this >> >> reach-through >> >> stuff, but I tried Counter Strike 1.6 (very old for those who don''t >> know >> >> it) >> >> through VMWare (Workstation - same 3D Support as Fusion) and the game >> > has >> >> really >> >> poor performance. No OpenGL at all, and D3D does not work properly. >> >> Software >> >> mode is working, but laggy, slow and ugly. If I remember right they >> >> convert >> >> >> >> D3D 8 into OpenGL, and are still using a virtual graphics adapter >> > instead >> >> of >> >> reaching it through to the host. This seems with my very basic >> knowledge >> >> still >> >> a non-performance solution... >> >> >> >> Daniel >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Xen-users mailing list >> >> Xen-users@lists.xensource.com >> >> http://lists.xensource.com/xen-users >> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ Xen-users mailing list Xen-users@lists.xensource.com http://lists.xensource.com/xen-users