Xen users - Sep 2007 - Purchasing only the Windows PV drivers for Xen

Does anyone have any info on how I might acquire the PV drivers for
Windows? Obviously Windows doesn''t perform as well without them, but I
don''t want to be tied to the XenSource branded commercial releases...

Is it possible to purchase them separately? Is there anyone at XenSource
that we could petition to consider doing this?

Thanks

James


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James Harper schrieb:
> Does anyone have any info on how I might acquire the PV drivers for
> Windows? Obviously Windows doesn''t perform as well without them,
but I
> don''t want to be tied to the XenSource branded commercial
releases...
> 
> Is it possible to purchase them separately? Is there anyone at XenSource
> that we could petition to consider doing this?
+1.

We''re running a custom Xen installation here, which is based on 
open-source 3.1 (and we used earlier versions of open source Xen, too).

We evaluated various commercial offering (from XenSource, Virtual Iron 
etc.), but it just doesn''t match our needs (really customized iSCSI, 
really customized VLANs, really customized bonding, failover, 
monitoring, etc. - you just can''t implement that in commercial
offerings).

We don''t need commercial Xen support; we''re able to support
ourselves
just fine.

The problem is, we can''t run Windows with open-source Xen, as it lacks 
paravirtual drivers, so performance is poor.

As a result, we''re running Windows on VMware, which we don''t
like, really.


If someone offered Windows PV drivers for a reasonable amount of money 
per virtualized Windows machine, we''d be glad to throw VMware away, and
use Xen for everything we virtualize.


-- 
Tomasz Chmielewski
http://wpkg.org

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On Fri, Sep 07, 2007 at 12:43:10PM +0200, Tomasz Chmielewski
wrote:
> >
> >Is it possible to purchase them separately? Is there anyone at
XenSource
> >that we could petition to consider doing this?
I think its not the effort that is missing, but $amount_of_money that has
to go to Redmond for this.
> We''re running a custom Xen installation here, which is based on 
> open-source 3.1 (and we used earlier versions of open source Xen, too).
> [...]
> If someone offered Windows PV drivers for a reasonable amount of money 
> per virtualized Windows machine, we''d be glad to throw VMware
away, and
> use Xen for everything we virtualize.
AFAIK novell offers the drivers as payware, if its not too wired into
the xen 3.0.4+patches they use for sles10sp1 maybe you can also stick with
all your current xen-setup and just use the para-drivers additionally.


Christian

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Christian Horn schrieb:
> On Fri, Sep 07, 2007 at 12:43:10PM +0200, Tomasz Chmielewski wrote:
>>> Is it possible to purchase them separately? Is there anyone at
XenSource
>>> that we could petition to consider doing this?
> I think its not the effort that is missing, but $amount_of_money that has
> to go to Redmond for this.
I don''t see a conflict here.
Just include it in price.

Besides, do you think that every company which wrote a Windows driver 
has to pay Microsoft for each person who uses that driver? It''s hard
for
me to believe.

>> We''re running a custom Xen installation here, which is based
on
>> open-source 3.1 (and we used earlier versions of open source Xen, too).
>> [...]
>> If someone offered Windows PV drivers for a reasonable amount of money 
>> per virtualized Windows machine, we''d be glad to throw VMware
away, and
>> use Xen for everything we virtualize.
> AFAIK novell offers the drivers as payware, if its not too wired into
> the xen 3.0.4+patches they use for sles10sp1 maybe you can also stick with
> all your current xen-setup and just use the para-drivers additionally.
I think it only works with SLES.
Which honestly, we don''t need - we can support ourselves just fine.


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Tomasz Chmielewski schrieb:
> James Harper schrieb:
>> Is it possible to purchase them separately? Is there anyone at
XenSource
>> that we could petition to consider doing this? 
> If someone offered Windows PV drivers for a reasonable amount of money
> per virtualized Windows machine, we''d be glad to throw VMware
away, and
> use Xen for everything we virtualize.
I''ve requested this, every time a XenSource sales representative called
in.
The only answer i''ve got so long is, that
	a) we''re not the first requesting a Windows PV driver
	b) he''s unable to provide one
	c) the request is reported to the team leader...

Well, this was in the days before citrix, maybe there''ll be a PV driver
become available in the future, but I don''t think so.


-- 
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Senior System Administrator

*netz-haut* e.K.
multimediale kommunikation

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97074 würzburg

fon: +49 931 2876247
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I really don''t understand how Xensource can''t give the PV
drivers for
everybody without any charge or whatsoever. Don''t they want their
product to
concuer the virtualization world? How will they do it without taking Windows
into the picture?

Look at VMWare, they perfectly deliver the Vmware Server, and yes, you get
the drivers with it.

What keeps Xensource from providing these to us?

BTW, I tried setting up XenExpress, no luck until now, can''t get some
sata
drivers to work. So i tried using the PV drivers in that ISO on my own
open-source xen 3.1 setup, no luck, the scsi driver gives up with error 10,
whatever it is. (guess it checked the underlying xen and sees that it''s
open
source, gives up).

Br,

Emre


On 9/7/07, Stephan Seitz <s.seitz@netz-haut.de>
wrote:
>
> Tomasz Chmielewski schrieb:
> > James Harper schrieb:
>
> >> Is it possible to purchase them separately? Is there anyone at
> XenSource
> >> that we could petition to consider doing this?
>
> > If someone offered Windows PV drivers for a reasonable amount of money
> > per virtualized Windows machine, we''d be glad to throw VMware
away, and
> > use Xen for everything we virtualize.
>
> I''ve requested this, every time a XenSource sales representative
called
> in.
> The only answer i''ve got so long is, that
>        a) we''re not the first requesting a Windows PV driver
>        b) he''s unable to provide one
>        c) the request is reported to the team leader...
>
> Well, this was in the days before citrix, maybe there''ll be a PV
driver
> become available in the future, but I don''t think so.
>
>
> --
> Stephan Seitz
> Senior System Administrator
>
> *netz-haut* e.K.
> multimediale kommunikation
>
> zweierweg 22
> 97074 würzburg
>
> fon: +49 931 2876247
> fax: +49 931 2876248
>
> web: www.netz-haut.de <http://www.netz-haut.de/>
>
> registriergericht: amtsgericht würzburg, hra 5054
>
> _______________________________________________
> Xen-users mailing list
> Xen-users@lists.xensource.com
> http://lists.xensource.com/xen-users
>
>

-- 
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erenoglu@gmail.com


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Greetz!

Emre Erenoglu wrote:
> I really don''t understand how Xensource can''t give the PV
drivers for
> everybody without any charge or whatsoever. Don''t they want their 
> product to concuer the virtualization world? How will they do it without 
> taking Windows into the picture?
You are taking it wrong. They are taking Windows into the picture, 
that''s why the have the PV drivers that u get if you buy the XenSource 
products!

I''ll hop on the bandwagon, since i''d love to get my hands on
the PV
drivers as well!




Regards,
David Gerbec
Agenda Open Systems
[www.agenda.si]
>  
> Look at VMWare, they perfectly deliver the Vmware Server, and yes, you 
> get the drivers with it.
>  
> What keeps Xensource from providing these to us?
>  
> BTW, I tried setting up XenExpress, no luck until now, can''t get
some
> sata drivers to work. So i tried using the PV drivers in that ISO on my 
> own open-source xen 3.1 setup, no luck, the scsi driver gives up with 
> error 10, whatever it is. (guess it checked the underlying xen and sees 
> that it''s open source, gives up).
>  
> Br,
>  
> Emre
> 
> 
> On 9/7/07, *Stephan Seitz* <s.seitz@netz-haut.de 
> <mailto:s.seitz@netz-haut.de>> wrote:
> 
>     Tomasz Chmielewski schrieb:
>      > James Harper schrieb:
> 
>      >> Is it possible to purchase them separately? Is there anyone
at
>     XenSource
>      >> that we could petition to consider doing this?
> 
>      > If someone offered Windows PV drivers for a reasonable amount of
>     money
>      > per virtualized Windows machine, we''d be glad to throw
VMware
>     away, and
>      > use Xen for everything we virtualize.
> 
>     I''ve requested this, every time a XenSource sales
representative
>     called in.
>     The only answer i''ve got so long is, that
>            a) we''re not the first requesting a Windows PV driver
>            b) he''s unable to provide one
>            c) the request is reported to the team leader...
> 
>     Well, this was in the days before citrix, maybe there''ll be a
PV driver
>     become available in the future, but I don''t think so.
> 
> 
>     --
>     Stephan Seitz
>     Senior System Administrator
> 
>     *netz-haut* e.K.
>     multimediale kommunikation
> 
>     zweierweg 22
>     97074 würzburg
> 
>     fon: +49 931 2876247
>     fax: +49 931 2876248
> 
>     web: www.netz-haut.de <http://www.netz-haut.de>
>     <http://www.netz-haut.de/>
> 
>     registriergericht: amtsgericht würzburg, hra 5054
> 
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<mailto:Xen-users@lists.xensource.com>
>     http://lists.xensource.com/xen-users
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Emre Erenoglu
> erenoglu@gmail.com <mailto:erenoglu@gmail.com>
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________
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Emre Erenoglu schrieb:
> I really don''t understand how Xensource can''t give the PV
drivers for
> everybody without any charge or whatsoever. Don''t they want their 
> product to concuer the virtualization world? How will they do it without 
> taking Windows into the picture?
That''s not true what you''re saying.

> Look at VMWare, they perfectly deliver the Vmware Server, and yes, you 
> get the drivers with it.
> What keeps Xensource from providing these to us?
Same is with XenSource - just download XenExpress, it''s something 
comparable to VMware server, and like its competitor, it includes 
paravirtual Windows drivers.


What some of us want though, are PV Windows drivers that could work with 
Xen built from sources. These drivers don''t have to be free, and some
of
us would be glad to pay for them.

> BTW, I tried setting up XenExpress, no luck until now, can''t get
some
> sata drivers to work.
Yet another reason why someone would like to pay just for PV drivers, 
but not for the whole XenServer / XenEnterprise / SLES / whatever.


-- 
Tomasz Chmielewski
http://wpkg.org


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OK, maybe I expressed it wrong. First of all, I''m a home-user, and
don''t
have the budget to spend on the PV drivers.

and yes, we have XenExpress, but this release wants to wipe-out my entire
disk just to install itself. Does Vmware server do that? never seen. Just
installs on a system that "you have setup".

Maybe I should say, then, "I want to be able to setup xenexpress on a
system
that I previously set-up myself, if possible even choosing my own
distribution".

Other than that, I''m perfectly OK with Xen, using it since 2.0 builds,
but
this PV driver issue really drives me towards Vmware.

Br,

Emre


On 9/7/07, Tomasz Chmielewski <mangoo@wpkg.org>
wrote:
>
> Emre Erenoglu schrieb:
> > I really don''t understand how Xensource can''t give
the PV drivers for
> > everybody without any charge or whatsoever. Don''t they want
their
> > product to concuer the virtualization world? How will they do it
without
> > taking Windows into the picture?
>
> That''s not true what you''re saying.
>
>
> > Look at VMWare, they perfectly deliver the Vmware Server, and yes, you
> > get the drivers with it.
> > What keeps Xensource from providing these to us?
>
> Same is with XenSource - just download XenExpress, it''s something
> comparable to VMware server, and like its competitor, it includes
> paravirtual Windows drivers.
>
>
> What some of us want though, are PV Windows drivers that could work with
> Xen built from sources. These drivers don''t have to be free, and
some of
> us would be glad to pay for them.
>
>
> > BTW, I tried setting up XenExpress, no luck until now, can''t
get some
> > sata drivers to work.
>
> Yet another reason why someone would like to pay just for PV drivers,
> but not for the whole XenServer / XenEnterprise / SLES / whatever.
>
>
> --
> Tomasz Chmielewski
> http://wpkg.org
>
>

-- 
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On Fri, Sep 07, 2007 at 01:26:32PM +0200, Tomasz Chmielewski
wrote:
> Christian Horn schrieb:
> >I think its not the effort that is missing, but $amount_of_money that
has
> >to go to Redmond for this.
> 
> I don''t see a conflict here.
> Just include it in price.
> 
> Besides, do you think that every company which wrote a Windows driver 
> has to pay Microsoft for each person who uses that driver? It''s
hard for
> me to believe.
There obviously is a need for a pv-windows-driver, and it doesnt exist
yet. The one part the driver would connect to is the opensourced xen.
So i conclude that

- it would take an effort too big to develop the driver as open source
- or closed information would be needed, only available under NDA
or smth.
- or parts would have to be included that had to be baught from
microsoft.

> >AFAIK novell offers the drivers as payware, if its not too wired into
> >the xen 3.0.4+patches they use for sles10sp1 maybe you can also stick
with
> >all your current xen-setup and just use the para-drivers additionally.
> 
> I think it only works with SLES.
> Which honestly, we don''t need - we can support ourselves just
fine.
Ok, understandable.


Christian

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Christian Horn schrieb:
> On Fri, Sep 07, 2007 at 01:26:32PM +0200, Tomasz Chmielewski wrote:
>> Christian Horn schrieb:
>>> I think its not the effort that is missing, but $amount_of_money
that has
>>> to go to Redmond for this.
>> I don''t see a conflict here.
>> Just include it in price.
>>
>> Besides, do you think that every company which wrote a Windows driver 
>> has to pay Microsoft for each person who uses that driver?
It''s hard for
>> me to believe.
> 
> There obviously is a need for a pv-windows-driver, and it doesnt exist
> yet. The one part the driver would connect to is the opensourced xen.
> So i conclude that
> 
> - it would take an effort too big to develop the driver as open source
I don''t see a single reason why a "standalone" PV Windows
driver has to
be open source. It can as well be closed source.

> - or closed information would be needed, only available under NDA
> or smth.
XenSource already has PV drivers, so I guess they already have all 
information needed.

> - or parts would have to be included that had to be baught from
> microsoft.
As above, XenSource already has PV drivers, so if they paid for it, 
they''ve paid already.



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Christian Horn wrote:
> - it would take an effort too big to develop the driver as open source
This is probably the biggie.. writing drivers in Windows is very hard (a 
common theme on the driver lists is someone coming on wanting a ''quick 
driver'' to do something like encryption then slowly realizing that 
they''re looking at a 2 year timescale for a releaseable product).

I''ve no idea whether a PV driver could take shortcuts with its 
development as it''s not talking to real hardware, but anything less
than
6 months (full time) is probably unrealistic.  For that kind of work 
people are going to want to be paid.
> - or closed information would be needed, only available under NDA
> or smth.
Nope it''s documented on the web.  The WDK contains example code for
most
stuff as well.
> - or parts would have to be included that had to be baught from
> microsoft.
> 
It''s in the WDK which is a standard part of MSDN, and every company 
working with windows programming has at least one copy of that somewhere.

Tony


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> XenSource already has PV drivers, so I guess they already have all 
> information needed.
XenSource is a business with bills to pay. I am continually astounded that folks
who expect to be paid a salary expect others to provide software for free. To
release a product means there needs to be a business case which at least covers
the costs.
 
> As above, XenSource already has PV drivers, so if they paid for it, 
> they''ve paid already.
But they haven''t paid the costs to isolate those drivers for release
outside of the current context.

In any case, to develop device drivers for Windows requires the Platform SDK
which can be downloaded from MSDN for free. Pick your favorite IDE and have at
it.

To those who want drivers and claim the competence to support themselves, step
up to the plate and write the drivers and then convince the folks who pay your
salary that you should release them for free. That in the end is what open
source is about ... everyone contributes and everyone benefits.

Dave Morris

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I could be wrong, but I thought that some folks were asking that the 
drivers be made available for purchase separate from the XenEnterprise 
product.  i.e. They are willing to pay for it but don''t have the need 
for Enterprise.  Isn''t that similar to asking for the ability to 
purchase MS Outlook without buying Office Premium?

Just throwing another perspective out there.

Jon

David Morris wrote:
>> XenSource already has PV drivers, so I guess they already have all 
>> information needed.
>>     
>
> XenSource is a business with bills to pay. I am continually astounded that
folks who expect to be paid a salary expect others to provide software for free.
To release a product means there needs to be a business case which at least
covers the costs.
>  
>   
>> As above, XenSource already has PV drivers, so if they paid for it, 
>> they''ve paid already.
>>     
>
> But they haven''t paid the costs to isolate those drivers for
release outside of the current context.
>
> In any case, to develop device drivers for Windows requires the Platform
SDK which can be downloaded from MSDN for free. Pick your favorite IDE and have
at it.
>
> To those who want drivers and claim the competence to support themselves,
step up to the plate and write the drivers and then convince the folks who pay
your salary that you should release them for free. That in the end is what open
source is about ... everyone contributes and everyone benefits.
>
> Dave Morris
>
> _______________________________________________
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> http://lists.xensource.com/xen-users
>
>   

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David Morris schrieb:
>> XenSource already has PV drivers, so I guess they already have all 
>> information needed.
> 
> XenSource is a business with bills to pay. I am continually astounded that
folks who expect to be paid a salary expect others to provide software for free.
To release a product means there needs to be a business case which at least
covers the costs.
Did you read at least a couple of posts in this thread? Or, perhaps, did 
you care to read the subject?
It''s about purchasing PV drivers, not getting them for free.


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hi,

Jonathon Jones schrieb:
> I could be wrong, but I thought that some folks were asking that the
> drivers be made available for purchase separate from the XenEnterprise
> product.  i.e. They are willing to pay for it but don''t have the
need
have a look at the Novell webpage and search for "driver pack xen" )or
google).

cu denny

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> Jonathon Jones schrieb:
>> I could be wrong, but I thought that some folks were asking that the
>> drivers be made available for purchase separate from the XenEnterprise
>> product.  i.e. They are willing to pay for it but don''t have
the need
> 
> have a look at the Novell webpage and search for "driver pack
xen" )or
> google).
> 
This is extracted from the system requirements:
from <http://www.novell.com//products/vmdriverpack/techspecs.html>

"...Furthermore, the host operating system used must be SUSE Linux
Enterprise Server 10 SP1 (Xen 3.0.4)."

BTW: I would also _pay_ for a windows driverpack working with open
source XEN 3.X.X

Bye

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On Fri September 7 2007 9:02:56 am Emre Erenoglu wrote:
> and yes, we have XenExpress, but this release wants to wipe-out my entire
> disk just to install itself. Does Vmware server do that? never seen. Just
> installs on a system that "you have setup".
Same problem here. Maybe my next computer I''ll devote to XenExpress,
and host
Vista and MacOS.
> Maybe I should say, then, "I want to be able to setup xenexpress on a
> system that I previously set-up myself, if possible even choosing my own
> distribution".
Don''t forget about xen-tools-ioemu (SuSE) or xen (fedora -
fedora''s rpm more
closely match what xensource offers) - these provide hvmloader and qemu-dm. 
When I first setup my winxp pro hvm guest with virt-manger on fc7, xen 3.1.0, 
the performance was abysmal. When I started optimizing the the xml config, 
and converting to a python config, with ioemu drivers, the performance became 
acceptable. Network throughput is about half of native, disk i/o is about 5 
times slower (instead of 50), and I can actually play music videos with no 
jerkiness (at least WMP and Quicktime - Realplay is still a problem).

Of course, you still get the Windows PV Tools with the free XenExpress, though 
some in this thread found the sata & scsi drivers a problem. When I get the 
chance, I''ll see if I can just enable video and network drivers in my
config.
I suspect that I''ll need to use a copy of my winxp image file, since
the PV
tools involve installing drivers on your guest''s disk image. Any body
been
down this road already?

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