Xen users - May 2007 - Firewire, PCI TV Tuner Card, PCI Wireless LAN Card, and USB Device Support Under Windows XP Xen Guest

Dear All,

Assuming that I buy a HVM compatible processor and motherboard, and having
installed a linux host operating system with a Xen kernel, I proceed to
install a Windows XP guest virtual machine. The question is:

Will I be able to use the firewire ports, USB ports, TV Tuner program and
wireless LAN card inside Windows XP guest VM? Will I be able to do video
editing inside Windows XP guest VM? Or is networking the one and only
feature that is supported under Windows XP guest operating system? And I
won''t be able to use anything else inside Windows XP guest?

Thank you.


_______________________________________________
Xen-users mailing list
Xen-users@lists.xensource.com
http://lists.xensource.com/xen-users

> -----Original Message-----
> From: xen-users-bounces@lists.xensource.com 
> [mailto:xen-users-bounces@lists.xensource.com] On Behalf Of 
> Teo En Ming
> Sent: 22 May 2007 14:44
> To: xen-users@lists.xensource.com
> Subject: [Xen-users] Firewire, PCI TV Tuner Card, PCI 
> Wireless LAN Card, and USB Device Support Under Windows XP Xen Guest
> 
> Dear All,
> 
> Assuming that I buy a HVM compatible processor and 
> motherboard, and having installed a linux host operating 
> system with a Xen kernel, I proceed to install a Windows XP 
> guest virtual machine. The question is: 
> 
> Will I be able to use the firewire ports, USB ports, TV Tuner 
> program and wireless LAN card inside Windows XP guest VM? 
Nope, none of these devices (aside from limited USB support, possibly),
will work under Xen, since (at present) there is no support to
hide/assign PCI devices to the HVM domain. This in turn is because of
the fact that PCI devices access memory directly, which isn''t going to
work when Xen has told "lies" [1] to the Windows guest about where the
memory is. So when the guest OS tells the PCI device where in memory
something is, it will not know that this is not the ACTUAL physical
address. And there''s no easy way to solve this in software only. 

In future generations of processors/chipsets, there will be IOMMU
hardware that allows us to redirect the memory requests from a
particular PCI device, so that we can continue to hide the ACTUAL
physical address and still use the PCI devices within a guest. But
that''s a little way out at this time. 


[1] All operating systems want memory to start at address zero. Since
only one CAN have this address, guests in HVM-mode will get a fake
memory map that starts at zero and goes to whatever size it''s
configured
to. The fact that the ACTUAL physical address of the guest''s memory is
somewhere else is completely hidden from the guest by using either
shadow-paging or hardware assisted paging (AMD Nested paging or Intel''s
corresponding technology) [once this technology reaches customers,
sometime later this year or so]. 

> Will I be able to do video editing inside Windows XP guest 
> VM? Or is networking the one and only feature that is 
> supported under Windows XP guest operating system? And I 
> won''t be able to use anything else inside Windows XP guest? 
You should be able to edit video in the guest, as long as you don''t
rely
on hardware features in PCI devices to do this. 

Likewise, I don''t see why you need to use Windows to connect to the
Wireless network, you can just as well hide the fact that it''s wireless
from Windows, and just use virtual network device, and use the Linux
bridge setting to connect it to the physical Wireless device. 

But you are correct, that the current technology only allows a limited
set of hardware features within the guest. This is a hardware
restriction, and it''s nothing to do with Xen in itsels, but with the
current state of hardware. Future generations of hardware will remove
some or all of these restrictions (but leaving one remaining
restriction: each guest will HAVE to have it''s own hardware to access -
no sharing of a single device without interfacing through a virtual
device - this is because all OS''s requires that the hardware they
control is their own. There are hardware devices (such as network cards)
that support "multi-access" by providing multiple device-instances.
These of course can be shared, as they are from a software standpoint
multiple devices, and each device will thus have it''s sole owner).

--
Mats
> 
> Thank you.
> 
> 


_______________________________________________
Xen-users mailing list
Xen-users@lists.xensource.com
http://lists.xensource.com/xen-users

Hi

Thank you for your reply.

May I know when will IOMMU hardware be arriving? Any specific roadmap/dates?

I think I will still be going for current virtualization processors. I will
still be able to install video editing software inside Windows XP guests and
do all my video editing there, while I will move all other computing
activities to my linux host operating system.

Will I be able to play Windows-based PC games inside Windows guests?


On 5/22/07, Petersson, Mats <Mats.Petersson@amd.com>
wrote:
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: xen-users-bounces@lists.xensource.com
> > [mailto:xen-users-bounces@lists.xensource.com] On Behalf Of
> > Teo En Ming
> > Sent: 22 May 2007 14:44
> > To: xen-users@lists.xensource.com
> > Subject: [Xen-users] Firewire, PCI TV Tuner Card, PCI
> > Wireless LAN Card, and USB Device Support Under Windows XP Xen Guest
> >
> > Dear All,
> >
> > Assuming that I buy a HVM compatible processor and
> > motherboard, and having installed a linux host operating
> > system with a Xen kernel, I proceed to install a Windows XP
> > guest virtual machine. The question is:
> >
> > Will I be able to use the firewire ports, USB ports, TV Tuner
> > program and wireless LAN card inside Windows XP guest VM?
>
> Nope, none of these devices (aside from limited USB support, possibly),
> will work under Xen, since (at present) there is no support to
> hide/assign PCI devices to the HVM domain. This in turn is because of
> the fact that PCI devices access memory directly, which isn''t
going to
> work when Xen has told "lies" [1] to the Windows guest about
where the
> memory is. So when the guest OS tells the PCI device where in memory
> something is, it will not know that this is not the ACTUAL physical
> address. And there''s no easy way to solve this in software only.
>
> In future generations of processors/chipsets, there will be IOMMU
> hardware that allows us to redirect the memory requests from a
> particular PCI device, so that we can continue to hide the ACTUAL
> physical address and still use the PCI devices within a guest. But
> that''s a little way out at this time.
>
>
> [1] All operating systems want memory to start at address zero. Since
> only one CAN have this address, guests in HVM-mode will get a fake
> memory map that starts at zero and goes to whatever size it''s
configured
> to. The fact that the ACTUAL physical address of the guest''s
memory is
> somewhere else is completely hidden from the guest by using either
> shadow-paging or hardware assisted paging (AMD Nested paging or
Intel''s
> corresponding technology) [once this technology reaches customers,
> sometime later this year or so].
>
>
> > Will I be able to do video editing inside Windows XP guest
> > VM? Or is networking the one and only feature that is
> > supported under Windows XP guest operating system? And I
> > won''t be able to use anything else inside Windows XP guest?
>
> You should be able to edit video in the guest, as long as you
don''t rely
> on hardware features in PCI devices to do this.
>
> Likewise, I don''t see why you need to use Windows to connect to
the
> Wireless network, you can just as well hide the fact that it''s
wireless
> from Windows, and just use virtual network device, and use the Linux
> bridge setting to connect it to the physical Wireless device.
>
> But you are correct, that the current technology only allows a limited
> set of hardware features within the guest. This is a hardware
> restriction, and it''s nothing to do with Xen in itsels, but with
the
> current state of hardware. Future generations of hardware will remove
> some or all of these restrictions (but leaving one remaining
> restriction: each guest will HAVE to have it''s own hardware to
access -
> no sharing of a single device without interfacing through a virtual
> device - this is because all OS''s requires that the hardware they
> control is their own. There are hardware devices (such as network cards)
> that support "multi-access" by providing multiple
device-instances.
> These of course can be shared, as they are from a software standpoint
> multiple devices, and each device will thus have it''s sole owner).
>
> --
> Mats
> >
> > Thank you.
> >
> >
>
>
>

_______________________________________________
Xen-users mailing list
Xen-users@lists.xensource.com
http://lists.xensource.com/xen-users

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Teo En Ming [mailto:space.time.universe@gmail.com] 
> Sent: 22 May 2007 15:55
> To: Petersson, Mats
> Cc: xen-users@lists.xensource.com
> Subject: Re: [Xen-users] Firewire, PCI TV Tuner Card, PCI 
> Wireless LAN Card, and USB Device Support Under Windows XP Xen Guest
> 
> Hi
> 
> Thank you for your reply.
> 
> May I know when will IOMMU hardware be arriving? Any specific 
> roadmap/dates?
I don''t work for the right part of AMD to know the planned (or actual)
release-dates of new products, and I don''t quite know which product(s)
the IOMMU will go into. It''s not going to happen in the next few weeks,
I can assure you of that, but as I said, I don''t really know much about
which parts will come out when - I usually know that some new product
has been released when it''s announced by e-mail to all AMDers.
> 
> I think I will still be going for current virtualization 
> processors. I will still be able to install video editing 
> software inside Windows XP guests and do all my video editing 
> there, while I will move all other computing activities to my 
> linux host operating system. 
Yes, as far as I can determine, there''s nothing in Video editing that
would be hardware specific, so it should work just fine in a virtual
Windows system. [Although if the graphics requirements are high for the
video editing software, you may still need to use a dedicated machine
for that, rather than a virtual machine, simply to get the graphics
performance]. 
> 
> Will I be able to play Windows-based PC games inside Windows guests?
Short answer: No.
Long answer: Yes, as long as they don''t require high-end 3D graphics.
You can''t use 3D graphics cards for the same reason as any other PCI
device (AGP8x is PCI from software and most hardware standpoints, it''s
just a different connector and somewhat different clock and signaling). 

--
Mats
> 
> 
> 
> On 5/22/07, Petersson, Mats < Mats.Petersson@amd.com 
> <mailto:Mats.Petersson@amd.com> > wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> 	> -----Original Message-----
> 	> From: xen-users-bounces@lists.xensource.com
> 	> [mailto:xen-users-bounces@lists.xensource.com] On Behalf Of 
> 	> Teo En Ming
> 	> Sent: 22 May 2007 14:44
> 	> To: xen-users@lists.xensource.com
> 	> Subject: [Xen-users] Firewire, PCI TV Tuner Card, PCI
> 	> Wireless LAN Card, and USB Device Support Under 
> Windows XP Xen Guest 
> 	>
> 	> Dear All,
> 	>
> 	> Assuming that I buy a HVM compatible processor and
> 	> motherboard, and having installed a linux host operating
> 	> system with a Xen kernel, I proceed to install a Windows XP 
> 	> guest virtual machine. The question is:
> 	>
> 	> Will I be able to use the firewire ports, USB ports, TV Tuner
> 	> program and wireless LAN card inside Windows XP guest VM?
> 	
> 	Nope, none of these devices (aside from limited USB 
> support, possibly), 
> 	will work under Xen, since (at present) there is no support to
> 	hide/assign PCI devices to the HVM domain. This in turn 
> is because of
> 	the fact that PCI devices access memory directly, which 
> isn''t going to
> 	work when Xen has told "lies" [1] to the Windows guest 
> about where the
> 	memory is. So when the guest OS tells the PCI device 
> where in memory
> 	something is, it will not know that this is not the 
> ACTUAL physical 
> 	address. And there''s no easy way to solve this in software only.
> 	
> 	In future generations of processors/chipsets, there 
> will be IOMMU
> 	hardware that allows us to redirect the memory requests from a
> 	particular PCI device, so that we can continue to hide 
> the ACTUAL 
> 	physical address and still use the PCI devices within a 
> guest. But
> 	that''s a little way out at this time.
> 	
> 	
> 	[1] All operating systems want memory to start at 
> address zero. Since
> 	only one CAN have this address, guests in HVM-mode will 
> get a fake 
> 	memory map that starts at zero and goes to whatever 
> size it''s configured
> 	to. The fact that the ACTUAL physical address of the 
> guest''s memory is
> 	somewhere else is completely hidden from the guest by 
> using either 
> 	shadow-paging or hardware assisted paging (AMD Nested 
> paging or Intel''s
> 	corresponding technology) [once this technology reaches 
> customers,
> 	sometime later this year or so].
> 	
> 	
> 	> Will I be able to do video editing inside Windows XP guest 
> 	> VM? Or is networking the one and only feature that is
> 	> supported under Windows XP guest operating system? And I
> 	> won''t be able to use anything else inside Windows XP guest?
> 	
> 	You should be able to edit video in the guest, as long 
> as you don''t rely 
> 	on hardware features in PCI devices to do this.
> 	
> 	Likewise, I don''t see why you need to use Windows to 
> connect to the
> 	Wireless network, you can just as well hide the fact 
> that it''s wireless
> 	from Windows, and just use virtual network device, and 
> use the Linux 
> 	bridge setting to connect it to the physical Wireless device.
> 	
> 	But you are correct, that the current technology only 
> allows a limited
> 	set of hardware features within the guest. This is a hardware
> 	restriction, and it''s nothing to do with Xen in itsels, 
> but with the 
> 	current state of hardware. Future generations of 
> hardware will remove
> 	some or all of these restrictions (but leaving one remaining
> 	restriction: each guest will HAVE to have it''s own 
> hardware to access -
> 	no sharing of a single device without interfacing 
> through a virtual 
> 	device - this is because all OS''s requires that the 
> hardware they
> 	control is their own. There are hardware devices (such 
> as network cards)
> 	that support "multi-access" by providing multiple 
> device-instances. 
> 	These of course can be shared, as they are from a 
> software standpoint
> 	multiple devices, and each device will thus have it''s 
> sole owner).
> 	
> 	--
> 	Mats
> 	>
> 	> Thank you.
> 	>
> 	>
> 	
> 	
> 	
> 
> 
> 


_______________________________________________
Xen-users mailing list
Xen-users@lists.xensource.com
http://lists.xensource.com/xen-users

Oh dear, I''ve let the video card requirement in Windows guests slipped
my
mind. If I remember correctly, the virtual video card in Windows guest is
somewhat backward/obsolete, and may not work with video editing software.
Even if video editing software can be successfully installed in a windows
guest, it may refuse to run/start due to an obsolete virtual video card.

Based on the same principle as AGP and PCI, I won''t be able to use PCI
Express x16 video cards in Windows guests too.

Sigh...

On 5/22/07, Petersson, Mats <Mats.Petersson@amd.com>
wrote:
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Teo En Ming [mailto:space.time.universe@gmail.com]
> > Sent: 22 May 2007 15:55
> > To: Petersson, Mats
> > Cc: xen-users@lists.xensource.com
> > Subject: Re: [Xen-users] Firewire, PCI TV Tuner Card, PCI
> > Wireless LAN Card, and USB Device Support Under Windows XP Xen Guest
> >
> > Hi
> >
> > Thank you for your reply.
> >
> > May I know when will IOMMU hardware be arriving? Any specific
> > roadmap/dates?
>
> I don''t work for the right part of AMD to know the planned (or
actual)
> release-dates of new products, and I don''t quite know which
product(s)
> the IOMMU will go into. It''s not going to happen in the next few
weeks,
> I can assure you of that, but as I said, I don''t really know much
about
> which parts will come out when - I usually know that some new product
> has been released when it''s announced by e-mail to all AMDers.
> >
> > I think I will still be going for current virtualization
> > processors. I will still be able to install video editing
> > software inside Windows XP guests and do all my video editing
> > there, while I will move all other computing activities to my
> > linux host operating system.
>
> Yes, as far as I can determine, there''s nothing in Video editing
that
> would be hardware specific, so it should work just fine in a virtual
> Windows system. [Although if the graphics requirements are high for the
> video editing software, you may still need to use a dedicated machine
> for that, rather than a virtual machine, simply to get the graphics
> performance].
> >
> > Will I be able to play Windows-based PC games inside Windows guests?
>
> Short answer: No.
> Long answer: Yes, as long as they don''t require high-end 3D
graphics.
> You can''t use 3D graphics cards for the same reason as any other
PCI
> device (AGP8x is PCI from software and most hardware standpoints,
it''s
> just a different connector and somewhat different clock and signaling).
>
> --
> Mats
> >
> >
> >
> > On 5/22/07, Petersson, Mats < Mats.Petersson@amd.com
> > <mailto:Mats.Petersson@amd.com> > wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >       > -----Original Message-----
> >       > From: xen-users-bounces@lists.xensource.com
> >       > [mailto:xen-users-bounces@lists.xensource.com] On Behalf Of
> >       > Teo En Ming
> >       > Sent: 22 May 2007 14:44
> >       > To: xen-users@lists.xensource.com
> >       > Subject: [Xen-users] Firewire, PCI TV Tuner Card, PCI
> >       > Wireless LAN Card, and USB Device Support Under
> > Windows XP Xen Guest
> >       >
> >       > Dear All,
> >       >
> >       > Assuming that I buy a HVM compatible processor and
> >       > motherboard, and having installed a linux host operating
> >       > system with a Xen kernel, I proceed to install a Windows XP
> >       > guest virtual machine. The question is:
> >       >
> >       > Will I be able to use the firewire ports, USB ports, TV
Tuner
> >       > program and wireless LAN card inside Windows XP guest VM?
> >
> >       Nope, none of these devices (aside from limited USB
> > support, possibly),
> >       will work under Xen, since (at present) there is no support to
> >       hide/assign PCI devices to the HVM domain. This in turn
> > is because of
> >       the fact that PCI devices access memory directly, which
> > isn''t going to
> >       work when Xen has told "lies" [1] to the Windows guest
> > about where the
> >       memory is. So when the guest OS tells the PCI device
> > where in memory
> >       something is, it will not know that this is not the
> > ACTUAL physical
> >       address. And there''s no easy way to solve this in
software only.
> >
> >       In future generations of processors/chipsets, there
> > will be IOMMU
> >       hardware that allows us to redirect the memory requests from a
> >       particular PCI device, so that we can continue to hide
> > the ACTUAL
> >       physical address and still use the PCI devices within a
> > guest. But
> >       that''s a little way out at this time.
> >
> >
> >       [1] All operating systems want memory to start at
> > address zero. Since
> >       only one CAN have this address, guests in HVM-mode will
> > get a fake
> >       memory map that starts at zero and goes to whatever
> > size it''s configured
> >       to. The fact that the ACTUAL physical address of the
> > guest''s memory is
> >       somewhere else is completely hidden from the guest by
> > using either
> >       shadow-paging or hardware assisted paging (AMD Nested
> > paging or Intel''s
> >       corresponding technology) [once this technology reaches
> > customers,
> >       sometime later this year or so].
> >
> >
> >       > Will I be able to do video editing inside Windows XP guest
> >       > VM? Or is networking the one and only feature that is
> >       > supported under Windows XP guest operating system? And I
> >       > won''t be able to use anything else inside Windows
XP guest?
> >
> >       You should be able to edit video in the guest, as long
> > as you don''t rely
> >       on hardware features in PCI devices to do this.
> >
> >       Likewise, I don''t see why you need to use Windows to
> > connect to the
> >       Wireless network, you can just as well hide the fact
> > that it''s wireless
> >       from Windows, and just use virtual network device, and
> > use the Linux
> >       bridge setting to connect it to the physical Wireless device.
> >
> >       But you are correct, that the current technology only
> > allows a limited
> >       set of hardware features within the guest. This is a hardware
> >       restriction, and it''s nothing to do with Xen in itsels,
> > but with the
> >       current state of hardware. Future generations of
> > hardware will remove
> >       some or all of these restrictions (but leaving one remaining
> >       restriction: each guest will HAVE to have it''s own
> > hardware to access -
> >       no sharing of a single device without interfacing
> > through a virtual
> >       device - this is because all OS''s requires that the
> > hardware they
> >       control is their own. There are hardware devices (such
> > as network cards)
> >       that support "multi-access" by providing multiple
> > device-instances.
> >       These of course can be shared, as they are from a
> > software standpoint
> >       multiple devices, and each device will thus have it''s
> > sole owner).
> >
> >       --
> >       Mats
> >       >
> >       > Thank you.
> >       >
> >       >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>

_______________________________________________
Xen-users mailing list
Xen-users@lists.xensource.com
http://lists.xensource.com/xen-users

Another thing to worry about is harddisk access speed in Windows guests.
Video editing requires fast harddisk access speeds. I could give the virtual
machine lots of ram if I have lots of physical memory to spare, so memory
requirements is not much of an issue in a windows guest. Unless memory
access is slower than native in a windows guest.

On 5/22/07, Teo En Ming <space.time.universe@gmail.com>
wrote:
>
> Oh dear, I''ve let the video card requirement in Windows guests
slipped my
> mind. If I remember correctly, the virtual video card in Windows guest is
> somewhat backward/obsolete, and may not work with video editing software.
> Even if video editing software can be successfully installed in a windows
> guest, it may refuse to run/start due to an obsolete virtual video card.
>
> Based on the same principle as AGP and PCI, I won''t be able to use
PCI
> Express x16 video cards in Windows guests too.
>
> Sigh...
>
> On 5/22/07, Petersson, Mats <Mats.Petersson@amd.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Teo En Ming [mailto:space.time.universe@gmail.com]
> > > Sent: 22 May 2007 15:55
> > > To: Petersson, Mats
> > > Cc: xen-users@lists.xensource.com
> > > Subject: Re: [Xen-users] Firewire, PCI TV Tuner Card, PCI
> > > Wireless LAN Card, and USB Device Support Under Windows XP Xen
Guest
> > >
> > > Hi
> > >
> > > Thank you for your reply.
> > >
> > > May I know when will IOMMU hardware be arriving? Any specific
> > > roadmap/dates?
> >
> > I don''t work for the right part of AMD to know the planned
(or actual)
> > release-dates of new products, and I don''t quite know which
product(s)
> > the IOMMU will go into. It''s not going to happen in the next
few weeks,
> > I can assure you of that, but as I said, I don''t really know
much about
> > which parts will come out when - I usually know that some new product
> > has been released when it''s announced by e-mail to all
AMDers.
> > >
> > > I think I will still be going for current virtualization
> > > processors. I will still be able to install video editing
> > > software inside Windows XP guests and do all my video editing
> > > there, while I will move all other computing activities to my
> > > linux host operating system.
> >
> > Yes, as far as I can determine, there''s nothing in Video
editing that
> > would be hardware specific, so it should work just fine in a virtual
> > Windows system. [Although if the graphics requirements are high for
the
> > video editing software, you may still need to use a dedicated machine
> > for that, rather than a virtual machine, simply to get the graphics
> > performance].
> > >
> > > Will I be able to play Windows-based PC games inside Windows
guests?
> >
> > Short answer: No.
> > Long answer: Yes, as long as they don''t require high-end 3D
graphics.
> > You can''t use 3D graphics cards for the same reason as any
other PCI
> > device (AGP8x is PCI from software and most hardware standpoints,
it''s
> > just a different connector and somewhat different clock and
signaling).
> >
> > --
> > Mats
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On 5/22/07, Petersson, Mats < Mats.Petersson@amd.com
> > > <mailto:Mats.Petersson@amd.com > > wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >       > -----Original Message-----
> > >       > From: xen-users-bounces@lists.xensource.com
> > >       > [mailto: xen-users-bounces@lists.xensource.com] On
Behalf Of
> > >       > Teo En Ming
> > >       > Sent: 22 May 2007 14:44
> > >       > To: xen-users@lists.xensource.com
> > >       > Subject: [Xen-users] Firewire, PCI TV Tuner Card, PCI
> > >       > Wireless LAN Card, and USB Device Support Under
> > > Windows XP Xen Guest
> > >       >
> > >       > Dear All,
> > >       >
> > >       > Assuming that I buy a HVM compatible processor and
> > >       > motherboard, and having installed a linux host
operating
> > >       > system with a Xen kernel, I proceed to install a
Windows XP
> > >       > guest virtual machine. The question is:
> > >       >
> > >       > Will I be able to use the firewire ports, USB ports,
TV Tuner
> > >       > program and wireless LAN card inside Windows XP guest
VM?
> > >
> > >       Nope, none of these devices (aside from limited USB
> > > support, possibly),
> > >       will work under Xen, since (at present) there is no support
to
> > >       hide/assign PCI devices to the HVM domain. This in turn
> > > is because of
> > >       the fact that PCI devices access memory directly, which
> > > isn''t going to
> > >       work when Xen has told "lies" [1] to the Windows
guest
> > > about where the
> > >       memory is. So when the guest OS tells the PCI device
> > > where in memory
> > >       something is, it will not know that this is not the
> > > ACTUAL physical
> > >       address. And there''s no easy way to solve this in
software only.
> >
> > >
> > >       In future generations of processors/chipsets, there
> > > will be IOMMU
> > >       hardware that allows us to redirect the memory requests
from a
> > >       particular PCI device, so that we can continue to hide
> > > the ACTUAL
> > >       physical address and still use the PCI devices within a
> > > guest. But
> > >       that''s a little way out at this time.
> > >
> > >
> > >       [1] All operating systems want memory to start at
> > > address zero. Since
> > >       only one CAN have this address, guests in HVM-mode will
> > > get a fake
> > >       memory map that starts at zero and goes to whatever
> > > size it''s configured
> > >       to. The fact that the ACTUAL physical address of the
> > > guest''s memory is
> > >       somewhere else is completely hidden from the guest by
> > > using either
> > >       shadow-paging or hardware assisted paging (AMD Nested
> > > paging or Intel''s
> > >       corresponding technology) [once this technology reaches
> > > customers,
> > >       sometime later this year or so].
> > >
> > >
> > >       > Will I be able to do video editing inside Windows XP
guest
> > >       > VM? Or is networking the one and only feature that is
> > >       > supported under Windows XP guest operating system? And
I
> > >       > won''t be able to use anything else inside
Windows XP guest?
> > >
> > >       You should be able to edit video in the guest, as long
> > > as you don''t rely
> > >       on hardware features in PCI devices to do this.
> > >
> > >       Likewise, I don''t see why you need to use Windows
to
> > > connect to the
> > >       Wireless network, you can just as well hide the fact
> > > that it''s wireless
> > >       from Windows, and just use virtual network device, and
> > > use the Linux
> > >       bridge setting to connect it to the physical Wireless
device.
> > >
> > >       But you are correct, that the current technology only
> > > allows a limited
> > >       set of hardware features within the guest. This is a
hardware
> > >       restriction, and it''s nothing to do with Xen in
itsels,
> > > but with the
> > >       current state of hardware. Future generations of
> > > hardware will remove
> > >       some or all of these restrictions (but leaving one
remaining
> > >       restriction: each guest will HAVE to have it''s own
> > > hardware to access -
> > >       no sharing of a single device without interfacing
> > > through a virtual
> > >       device - this is because all OS''s requires that
the
> > > hardware they
> > >       control is their own. There are hardware devices (such
> > > as network cards)
> > >       that support "multi-access" by providing multiple
> > > device-instances.
> > >       These of course can be shared, as they are from a
> > > software standpoint
> > >       multiple devices, and each device will thus have
it''s
> > > sole owner).
> > >
> > >       --
> > >       Mats
> > >       >
> > >       > Thank you.
> > >       >
> > >       >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>

_______________________________________________
Xen-users mailing list
Xen-users@lists.xensource.com
http://lists.xensource.com/xen-users

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Teo En Ming [mailto:space.time.universe@gmail.com] 
> Sent: 22 May 2007 16:39
> To: Petersson, Mats
> Cc: xen-users@lists.xensource.com
> Subject: Re: [Xen-users] Firewire, PCI TV Tuner Card, PCI 
> Wireless LAN Card, and USB Device Support Under Windows XP Xen Guest
> 
> Another thing to worry about is harddisk access speed in 
> Windows guests. Video editing requires fast harddisk access 
> speeds. I could give the virtual machine lots of ram if I 
> have lots of physical memory to spare, so memory requirements 
> is not much of an issue in a windows guest. Unless memory 
> access is slower than native in a windows guest. 
The hard-disk speed should be reasonably equal to real hardware if you
use para-virtual drivers (such as using XenExpress or any other
"commercial" product that is supplying the same fucntionality).
Para-virtual drivers stop the drive from being "emulated hardware",
but
instead feed the disk-IO directly to Dom0 in one simple packet, which is
much better than about 5-6 transitions between Dom0 and the guest before
a single disk-IO is emulated in the basic system. 

Memory should be very close to the native speed. There is a difference
in handling the page-table, but I would expect a video editing software
to attempt to avoid page-table operation in native mode (as they are
somewhat slow in native mode too, even if they are x times faster than
the virtualized version). 
> 
> 
> On 5/22/07, Teo En Ming <space.time.universe@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> 	Oh dear, I''ve let the video card requirement in Windows 
> guests slipped my mind. If I remember correctly, the virtual 
> video card in Windows guest is somewhat backward/obsolete, 
> and may not work with video editing software. Even if video 
> editing software can be successfully installed in a windows 
> guest, it may refuse to run/start due to an obsolete virtual 
> video card. 
> 	
> 	Based on the same principle as AGP and PCI, I won''t be 
> able to use PCI Express x16 video cards in Windows guests too.
Yes, PCI-e is also a PCI architecture from a software and most hardware
standpoints - only the actual signalling between one point of hardware
and another is (very) different from other PCI architectures [and, for
completeness, from a software standpoint, there is some support for
extended registers - but that''s not really important here]. 

--
Mats
> 	
> 	Sigh...
> 	
> 	
> 	
> 	On 5/22/07, Petersson, Mats <Mats.Petersson@amd.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> 		> -----Original Message-----
> 		> From: Teo En Ming 
> [mailto:space.time.universe@gmail.com ]
> 		> Sent: 22 May 2007 15:55
> 		> To: Petersson, Mats
> 		> Cc: xen-users@lists.xensource.com
> 		> Subject: Re: [Xen-users] Firewire, PCI TV 
> Tuner Card, PCI
> 		> Wireless LAN Card, and USB Device Support 
> Under Windows XP Xen Guest 
> 		>
> 		> Hi
> 		>
> 		> Thank you for your reply.
> 		>
> 		> May I know when will IOMMU hardware be 
> arriving? Any specific
> 		> roadmap/dates?
> 		
> 		I don''t work for the right part of AMD to know 
> the planned (or actual) 
> 		release-dates of new products, and I don''t 
> quite know which product(s)
> 		the IOMMU will go into. It''s not going to 
> happen in the next few weeks,
> 		I can assure you of that, but as I said, I 
> don''t really know much about 
> 		which parts will come out when - I usually know 
> that some new product
> 		has been released when it''s announced by e-mail 
> to all AMDers.
> 		>
> 		> I think I will still be going for current 
> virtualization
> 		> processors. I will still be able to install 
> video editing 
> 		> software inside Windows XP guests and do all 
> my video editing
> 		> there, while I will move all other computing 
> activities to my
> 		> linux host operating system.
> 		
> 		Yes, as far as I can determine, there''s nothing 
> in Video editing that 
> 		would be hardware specific, so it should work 
> just fine in a virtual
> 		Windows system. [Although if the graphics 
> requirements are high for the
> 		video editing software, you may still need to 
> use a dedicated machine 
> 		for that, rather than a virtual machine, simply 
> to get the graphics
> 		performance].
> 		>
> 		> Will I be able to play Windows-based PC games 
> inside Windows guests?
> 		
> 		Short answer: No.
> 		Long answer: Yes, as long as they don''t require 
> high-end 3D graphics. 
> 		You can''t use 3D graphics cards for the same 
> reason as any other PCI
> 		device (AGP8x is PCI from software and most 
> hardware standpoints, it''s
> 		just a different connector and somewhat 
> different clock and signaling). 
> 		
> 		--
> 		Mats
> 		>
> 		>
> 		>
> 		> On 5/22/07, Petersson, Mats < Mats.Petersson@amd.com 
> 		> <mailto:Mats.Petersson@amd.com > > wrote:
> 		>
> 		>
> 		>
> 		>       > -----Original Message-----
> 		>       > From: 
> xen-users-bounces@lists.xensource.com 
> <mailto:xen-users-bounces@lists.xensource.com> 
> 		>       > [mailto: 
> xen-users-bounces@lists.xensource.com] On Behalf Of
> 		>       > Teo En Ming
> 		>       > Sent: 22 May 2007 14:44 
> 		>       > To: xen-users@lists.xensource.com 
> <mailto:xen-users@lists.xensource.com> 
> 		>       > Subject: [Xen-users] Firewire, PCI TV 
> Tuner Card, PCI
> 		>       > Wireless LAN Card, and USB Device 
> Support Under
> 		> Windows XP Xen Guest
> 		>       > 
> 		>       > Dear All,
> 		>       >
> 		>       > Assuming that I buy a HVM compatible 
> processor and
> 		>       > motherboard, and having installed a 
> linux host operating
> 		>       > system with a Xen kernel, I proceed 
> to install a Windows XP 
> 		>       > guest virtual machine. The question is:
> 		>       >
> 		>       > Will I be able to use the firewire 
> ports, USB ports, TV Tuner
> 		>       > program and wireless LAN card inside 
> Windows XP guest VM? 
> 		>
> 		>       Nope, none of these devices (aside from 
> limited USB
> 		> support, possibly),
> 		>       will work under Xen, since (at present) 
> there is no support to
> 		>       hide/assign PCI devices to the HVM 
> domain. This in turn 
> 		> is because of
> 		>       the fact that PCI devices access memory 
> directly, which
> 		> isn''t going to
> 		>       work when Xen has told "lies" [1] to 
> the Windows guest
> 		> about where the 
> 		>       memory is. So when the guest OS tells 
> the PCI device
> 		> where in memory
> 		>       something is, it will not know that 
> this is not the
> 		> ACTUAL physical
> 		>       address. And there''s no easy way to 
> solve this in software only. 
> 		>
> 		>       In future generations of 
> processors/chipsets, there
> 		> will be IOMMU
> 		>       hardware that allows us to redirect the 
> memory requests from a
> 		>       particular PCI device, so that we can 
> continue to hide 
> 		> the ACTUAL
> 		>       physical address and still use the PCI 
> devices within a
> 		> guest. But
> 		>       that''s a little way out at this time.
> 		>
> 		>
> 		>       [1] All operating systems want memory 
> to start at 
> 		> address zero. Since
> 		>       only one CAN have this address, guests 
> in HVM-mode will
> 		> get a fake
> 		>       memory map that starts at zero and goes 
> to whatever
> 		> size it''s configured
> 		>       to. The fact that the ACTUAL physical 
> address of the 
> 		> guest''s memory is
> 		>       somewhere else is completely hidden 
> from the guest by
> 		> using either
> 		>       shadow-paging or hardware assisted 
> paging (AMD Nested
> 		> paging or Intel''s
> 		>       corresponding technology) [once this 
> technology reaches
> 		> customers,
> 		>       sometime later this year or so].
> 		>
> 		>
> 		>       > Will I be able to do video editing 
> inside Windows XP guest 
> 		>       > VM? Or is networking the one and only 
> feature that is
> 		>       > supported under Windows XP guest 
> operating system? And I
> 		>       > won''t be able to use anything else 
> inside Windows XP guest? 
> 		>
> 		>       You should be able to edit video in the 
> guest, as long
> 		> as you don''t rely
> 		>       on hardware features in PCI devices to do this.
> 		>
> 		>       Likewise, I don''t see why you need to 
> use Windows to 
> 		> connect to the
> 		>       Wireless network, you can just as well 
> hide the fact
> 		> that it''s wireless
> 		>       from Windows, and just use virtual 
> network device, and
> 		> use the Linux
> 		>       bridge setting to connect it to the 
> physical Wireless device. 
> 		>
> 		>       But you are correct, that the current 
> technology only
> 		> allows a limited
> 		>       set of hardware features within the 
> guest. This is a hardware
> 		>       restriction, and it''s nothing to do 
> with Xen in itsels, 
> 		> but with the
> 		>       current state of hardware. Future generations of
> 		> hardware will remove
> 		>       some or all of these restrictions (but 
> leaving one remaining
> 		>       restriction: each guest will HAVE to 
> have it''s own 
> 		> hardware to access -
> 		>       no sharing of a single device without 
> interfacing
> 		> through a virtual
> 		>       device - this is because all OS''s 
> requires that the
> 		> hardware they
> 		>       control is their own. There are 
> hardware devices (such 
> 		> as network cards)
> 		>       that support "multi-access" by 
> providing multiple
> 		> device-instances.
> 		>       These of course can be shared, as they 
> are from a
> 		> software standpoint
> 		>       multiple devices, and each device will 
> thus have it''s
> 		> sole owner).
> 		>
> 		>       --
> 		>       Mats
> 		>       >
> 		>       > Thank you.
> 		>       >
> 		>       > 
> 		>
> 		>
> 		>
> 		>
> 		>
> 		>
> 		
> 		
> 		
> 
> 
> 
> 


_______________________________________________
Xen-users mailing list
Xen-users@lists.xensource.com
http://lists.xensource.com/xen-users

Thank you Petersson. Looks like I may want for the arrival of IOMMU
hardware.

On 5/22/07, Petersson, Mats <Mats.Petersson@amd.com>
wrote:
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Teo En Ming [mailto:space.time.universe@gmail.com]
> > Sent: 22 May 2007 16:39
> > To: Petersson, Mats
> > Cc: xen-users@lists.xensource.com
> > Subject: Re: [Xen-users] Firewire, PCI TV Tuner Card, PCI
> > Wireless LAN Card, and USB Device Support Under Windows XP Xen Guest
> >
> > Another thing to worry about is harddisk access speed in
> > Windows guests. Video editing requires fast harddisk access
> > speeds. I could give the virtual machine lots of ram if I
> > have lots of physical memory to spare, so memory requirements
> > is not much of an issue in a windows guest. Unless memory
> > access is slower than native in a windows guest.
>
> The hard-disk speed should be reasonably equal to real hardware if you
> use para-virtual drivers (such as using XenExpress or any other
> "commercial" product that is supplying the same fucntionality).
> Para-virtual drivers stop the drive from being "emulated
hardware", but
> instead feed the disk-IO directly to Dom0 in one simple packet, which is
> much better than about 5-6 transitions between Dom0 and the guest before
> a single disk-IO is emulated in the basic system.
>
> Memory should be very close to the native speed. There is a difference
> in handling the page-table, but I would expect a video editing software
> to attempt to avoid page-table operation in native mode (as they are
> somewhat slow in native mode too, even if they are x times faster than
> the virtualized version).
>
> >
> >
> > On 5/22/07, Teo En Ming <space.time.universe@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >       Oh dear, I''ve let the video card requirement in Windows
> > guests slipped my mind. If I remember correctly, the virtual
> > video card in Windows guest is somewhat backward/obsolete,
> > and may not work with video editing software. Even if video
> > editing software can be successfully installed in a windows
> > guest, it may refuse to run/start due to an obsolete virtual
> > video card.
> >
> >       Based on the same principle as AGP and PCI, I won''t be
> > able to use PCI Express x16 video cards in Windows guests too.
>
> Yes, PCI-e is also a PCI architecture from a software and most hardware
> standpoints - only the actual signalling between one point of hardware
> and another is (very) different from other PCI architectures [and, for
> completeness, from a software standpoint, there is some support for
> extended registers - but that''s not really important here].
>
> --
> Mats
> >
> >       Sigh...
> >
> >
> >
> >       On 5/22/07, Petersson, Mats <Mats.Petersson@amd.com>
wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >               > -----Original Message-----
> >               > From: Teo En Ming
> > [mailto:space.time.universe@gmail.com ]
> >               > Sent: 22 May 2007 15:55
> >               > To: Petersson, Mats
> >               > Cc: xen-users@lists.xensource.com
> >               > Subject: Re: [Xen-users] Firewire, PCI TV
> > Tuner Card, PCI
> >               > Wireless LAN Card, and USB Device Support
> > Under Windows XP Xen Guest
> >               >
> >               > Hi
> >               >
> >               > Thank you for your reply.
> >               >
> >               > May I know when will IOMMU hardware be
> > arriving? Any specific
> >               > roadmap/dates?
> >
> >               I don''t work for the right part of AMD to know
> > the planned (or actual)
> >               release-dates of new products, and I don''t
> > quite know which product(s)
> >               the IOMMU will go into. It''s not going to
> > happen in the next few weeks,
> >               I can assure you of that, but as I said, I
> > don''t really know much about
> >               which parts will come out when - I usually know
> > that some new product
> >               has been released when it''s announced by e-mail
> > to all AMDers.
> >               >
> >               > I think I will still be going for current
> > virtualization
> >               > processors. I will still be able to install
> > video editing
> >               > software inside Windows XP guests and do all
> > my video editing
> >               > there, while I will move all other computing
> > activities to my
> >               > linux host operating system.
> >
> >               Yes, as far as I can determine, there''s nothing
> > in Video editing that
> >               would be hardware specific, so it should work
> > just fine in a virtual
> >               Windows system. [Although if the graphics
> > requirements are high for the
> >               video editing software, you may still need to
> > use a dedicated machine
> >               for that, rather than a virtual machine, simply
> > to get the graphics
> >               performance].
> >               >
> >               > Will I be able to play Windows-based PC games
> > inside Windows guests?
> >
> >               Short answer: No.
> >               Long answer: Yes, as long as they don''t require
> > high-end 3D graphics.
> >               You can''t use 3D graphics cards for the same
> > reason as any other PCI
> >               device (AGP8x is PCI from software and most
> > hardware standpoints, it''s
> >               just a different connector and somewhat
> > different clock and signaling).
> >
> >               --
> >               Mats
> >               >
> >               >
> >               >
> >               > On 5/22/07, Petersson, Mats <
Mats.Petersson@amd.com
> >               > <mailto:Mats.Petersson@amd.com > > wrote:
> >               >
> >               >
> >               >
> >               >       > -----Original Message-----
> >               >       > From:
> > xen-users-bounces@lists.xensource.com
> > <mailto:xen-users-bounces@lists.xensource.com>
> >               >       > [mailto:
> > xen-users-bounces@lists.xensource.com] On Behalf Of
> >               >       > Teo En Ming
> >               >       > Sent: 22 May 2007 14:44
> >               >       > To: xen-users@lists.xensource.com
> > <mailto:xen-users@lists.xensource.com>
> >               >       > Subject: [Xen-users] Firewire, PCI TV
> > Tuner Card, PCI
> >               >       > Wireless LAN Card, and USB Device
> > Support Under
> >               > Windows XP Xen Guest
> >               >       >
> >               >       > Dear All,
> >               >       >
> >               >       > Assuming that I buy a HVM compatible
> > processor and
> >               >       > motherboard, and having installed a
> > linux host operating
> >               >       > system with a Xen kernel, I proceed
> > to install a Windows XP
> >               >       > guest virtual machine. The question is:
> >               >       >
> >               >       > Will I be able to use the firewire
> > ports, USB ports, TV Tuner
> >               >       > program and wireless LAN card inside
> > Windows XP guest VM?
> >               >
> >               >       Nope, none of these devices (aside from
> > limited USB
> >               > support, possibly),
> >               >       will work under Xen, since (at present)
> > there is no support to
> >               >       hide/assign PCI devices to the HVM
> > domain. This in turn
> >               > is because of
> >               >       the fact that PCI devices access memory
> > directly, which
> >               > isn''t going to
> >               >       work when Xen has told "lies" [1]
to
> > the Windows guest
> >               > about where the
> >               >       memory is. So when the guest OS tells
> > the PCI device
> >               > where in memory
> >               >       something is, it will not know that
> > this is not the
> >               > ACTUAL physical
> >               >       address. And there''s no easy way to
> > solve this in software only.
> >               >
> >               >       In future generations of
> > processors/chipsets, there
> >               > will be IOMMU
> >               >       hardware that allows us to redirect the
> > memory requests from a
> >               >       particular PCI device, so that we can
> > continue to hide
> >               > the ACTUAL
> >               >       physical address and still use the PCI
> > devices within a
> >               > guest. But
> >               >       that''s a little way out at this
time.
> >               >
> >               >
> >               >       [1] All operating systems want memory
> > to start at
> >               > address zero. Since
> >               >       only one CAN have this address, guests
> > in HVM-mode will
> >               > get a fake
> >               >       memory map that starts at zero and goes
> > to whatever
> >               > size it''s configured
> >               >       to. The fact that the ACTUAL physical
> > address of the
> >               > guest''s memory is
> >               >       somewhere else is completely hidden
> > from the guest by
> >               > using either
> >               >       shadow-paging or hardware assisted
> > paging (AMD Nested
> >               > paging or Intel''s
> >               >       corresponding technology) [once this
> > technology reaches
> >               > customers,
> >               >       sometime later this year or so].
> >               >
> >               >
> >               >       > Will I be able to do video editing
> > inside Windows XP guest
> >               >       > VM? Or is networking the one and only
> > feature that is
> >               >       > supported under Windows XP guest
> > operating system? And I
> >               >       > won''t be able to use anything
else
> > inside Windows XP guest?
> >               >
> >               >       You should be able to edit video in the
> > guest, as long
> >               > as you don''t rely
> >               >       on hardware features in PCI devices to do
this.
> >               >
> >               >       Likewise, I don''t see why you need
to
> > use Windows to
> >               > connect to the
> >               >       Wireless network, you can just as well
> > hide the fact
> >               > that it''s wireless
> >               >       from Windows, and just use virtual
> > network device, and
> >               > use the Linux
> >               >       bridge setting to connect it to the
> > physical Wireless device.
> >               >
> >               >       But you are correct, that the current
> > technology only
> >               > allows a limited
> >               >       set of hardware features within the
> > guest. This is a hardware
> >               >       restriction, and it''s nothing to do
> > with Xen in itsels,
> >               > but with the
> >               >       current state of hardware. Future generations
of
> >               > hardware will remove
> >               >       some or all of these restrictions (but
> > leaving one remaining
> >               >       restriction: each guest will HAVE to
> > have it''s own
> >               > hardware to access -
> >               >       no sharing of a single device without
> > interfacing
> >               > through a virtual
> >               >       device - this is because all OS''s
> > requires that the
> >               > hardware they
> >               >       control is their own. There are
> > hardware devices (such
> >               > as network cards)
> >               >       that support "multi-access" by
> > providing multiple
> >               > device-instances.
> >               >       These of course can be shared, as they
> > are from a
> >               > software standpoint
> >               >       multiple devices, and each device will
> > thus have it''s
> >               > sole owner).
> >               >
> >               >       --
> >               >       Mats
> >               >       >
> >               >       > Thank you.
> >               >       >
> >               >       >
> >               >
> >               >
> >               >
> >               >
> >               >
> >               >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>

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