"The Standard Performance Evaluation Corporation (SPEC) is forming a group to discuss whether virtualisation benchmarks are needed and, if so, then set those benchmarks over an estimated three-month process." http://www.techworld.com/opsys/news/index.cfm?newsID=7224 Is anyone from the Xen community able to be involved? Thanks, Tim _______________________________________________ Xen-users mailing list Xen-users@lists.xensource.com http://lists.xensource.com/xen-users
On Tue, 2006-10-31 at 15:11 -0600, Tim Freeman wrote:> "The Standard Performance Evaluation Corporation (SPEC) is forming a group to > discuss whether virtualisation benchmarks are needed and, if so, then set those > benchmarks over an estimated three-month process." > > http://www.techworld.com/opsys/news/index.cfm?newsID=7224 > > Is anyone from the Xen community able to be involved? > > Thanks, > Tim >I think its needed.. first and foremost in the web hosting industry. Many people pay for resources they just aren''t getting as advertised, which gives the platform advertised a bad reputation. I just don''t think they''re needed *yet* as the technology (in particular Xen) is still in its infancy. I don''t think comprehensive standards could be responsibly established at this point .. but just my opinion :) When would the estimated three month process begin? Since this stands to cause many people''s bosses to begin nitpicking even more than they already do .. I''ve submitted the story to /. with the warning get involved now .. or don''t complain when your held accountable to the results :) Best, -Tim> _______________________________________________ > Xen-users mailing list > Xen-users@lists.xensource.com > http://lists.xensource.com/xen-users > >_______________________________________________ Xen-users mailing list Xen-users@lists.xensource.com http://lists.xensource.com/xen-users
On 1 Nov 2006 at 12:10, Tim Post wrote:> On Tue, 2006-10-31 at 15:11 -0600, Tim Freeman wrote: > > "The Standard Performance Evaluation Corporation (SPEC) is forming a group to > > discuss whether virtualisation benchmarks are needed and, if so, then set those > > benchmarks over an estimated three-month process."[...]> I think its needed.. first and foremost in the web hosting industry.Q: Isn''t it sufficient to run a non-virtualization-aware benchmark within a DomU to get the performance of the virtualization? When running the same program in a camparable native environment, you could get the overhead of virtualization by comparing the results, right?> > Many people pay for resources they just aren''t getting as advertised, > which gives the platform advertised a bad reputation.Depends on the advertising... [...] Regards, Ulrich _______________________________________________ Xen-users mailing list Xen-users@lists.xensource.com http://lists.xensource.com/xen-users
On Thu, 2006-11-02 at 08:46 +0100, Ulrich Windl wrote:> On 1 Nov 2006 at 12:10, Tim Post wrote: >> Q: Isn''t it sufficient to run a non-virtualization-aware benchmark within a DomU > to get the performance of the virtualization? When running the same program in a > camparable native environment, you could get the overhead of virtualization by > comparing the results, right? >I think the idea is to setup some standards that define just how different they should be on a variety of platforms.. how much of a difference should be considered acceptable and in what areas. I''m all for the standard, just not yet :) I agree, any standards agreed on would be loose at best.> > > > Many people pay for resources they just aren''t getting as advertised, > > which gives the platform advertised a bad reputation. > > Depends on the advertising... >I work for a few larger hosts, and have heard some real horror stories. There''s lots of people flocking to Xen hosts because they''re hoping to get what they pay for.. but really have no idea of knowing just what they have. These are mostly non technical folks who just want a VPS to host an e-commerce store. They typically never venture further than the web control panel, and really aren''t apt enough to realize they''ve been ripped off. Some hosts using Xen have been selling 128 MB dom-u''s as 1GB, cheating on drive space.. cramming 30 guests on a Celeron, etc. Since Xen does not lend well to overselling, some less reputable hosts have been finding other ways to cut corners for better profit. The end result is, we have to more or less defend Xen as a viable technology citing the fact that you can''t stop determined scammers from scamming. While yes, its also partly the user to blame for playing on a field without knowing the basics (just like if you own a car you should know how to change your tires and oil) .. its still wrong, and does give Xen a black eye. This hurts anyone who has made Xen their favorite wrench in their admin toolbox. I''m not even going to go into what some hosts do with Virtuozzo :)> [...] > > Regards, > Ulrich >Best, -Tim> > _______________________________________________ > Xen-users mailing list > Xen-users@lists.xensource.com > http://lists.xensource.com/xen-users > >_______________________________________________ Xen-users mailing list Xen-users@lists.xensource.com http://lists.xensource.com/xen-users
Tim Post wrote:> Some hosts using Xen have been selling 128 MB dom-u''s as 1GB, cheating > on drive space.. cramming 30 guests on a Celeron, etc. Since Xen does > not lend well to overselling, some less reputable hosts have been > finding other ways to cut corners for better profit. >Hi all! I''m running several VPS related sites and if you (or others) have bad or good opinions about some providers you (and others) might share that with me. For example, you might take look at http://www.cheapvps.info and gives your opinion if any. Also, you and others might contact me for any reviews information usefull for http://www.vpsreview.com Regards, Mladen. -- Mladen Adamovic http://www.cheapvps.info http://www.vpsreview.com http://www.vpsdeal.com _______________________________________________ Xen-users mailing list Xen-users@lists.xensource.com http://lists.xensource.com/xen-users
On Thu, 2 Nov 2006, Tim Post wrote:> I work for a few larger hosts, and have heard some real horror stories. > There''s lots of people flocking to Xen hosts because they''re hoping to > get what they pay for.. but really have no idea of knowing just what > they have. > > These are mostly non technical folks who just want a VPS to host an > e-commerce store. They typically never venture further than the web > control panel, and really aren''t apt enough to realize they''ve been > ripped off.Users like this shouldn''t be renting a VPS. they should be going to an e-commerce store provider. there are many. Renting a VPS is like renting a co-located server; you shouldn''t do it unless you have someone with SysAdmin experience on-hand. _______________________________________________ Xen-users mailing list Xen-users@lists.xensource.com http://lists.xensource.com/xen-users
On Thu, 2006-11-02 at 10:54 -0800, Luke Crawford wrote:> . > > Users like this shouldn''t be renting a VPS. they should be going to an > e-commerce store provider. there are many. > > Renting a VPS is like renting a co-located server; you shouldn''t do it > unless you have someone with SysAdmin experience on-hand.The fact remains that they are renting them because they are advertised as effortless and easy and the majority just doesn''t know any better. Folks tend to consult the great oracle known as "Google" and seldom get past the first 5 - 10 results. Its a growing problem, and very little to be done about it. I agree and like I said, if your going to drive a car you should know how to not get ripped off by a mechanic. Same goes with a hosting provider .. but sadly its just not the case. Best, -Tim _______________________________________________ Xen-users mailing list Xen-users@lists.xensource.com http://lists.xensource.com/xen-users
Luke Crawford wrote:> Renting a VPS is like renting a co-located server; you shouldn''t do > it unless you have someone with SysAdmin experience on-hand.I partly disagree. VPS hosting providers tends to installs Plesk or other web control panels. Many users won''t need anything which is not included in control panel. If they need they can always pay some system administrators for few hours a week or when needed. I.e. to set-up the server. -- Mladen Adamovic http://www.cheapvps.info http://www.vpsreview.com http://www.vpsdeal.com _______________________________________________ Xen-users mailing list Xen-users@lists.xensource.com http://lists.xensource.com/xen-users
On Fri, 3 Nov 2006, Tim Post wrote:> The fact remains that they are renting them because they are advertised > as effortless and easy and the majority just doesn''t know any better.This is where they are getting "ripped off" - not in getting shorted on resources.> Folks tend to consult the great oracle known as "Google" and seldom get > past the first 5 - 10 results. Its a growing problem, and very little to > be done about it.I''m #12 for "xen hosting" right now... I''m fairly careful to go for the more proficent customers. Getting people that are not unix people results in headaches that are unprofitable for all involved: "hosting services for the technically adept. At ----, we don''t assume you''re stupid." I think this makes it fairly clear that I am not targeting less-technical customers; in fact, I am rather directly insulting them (perhaps unfairly; there are plenty of people that are non-technical for reasons other than lack of intelectual capacity.) they are clearly better served by application service providers. VPS providers are simply not equiped to serve non-technical customers. (I soppose you could do it if you had, say, a 20:1 customer:SysAdmin ratio, but that would get expensive fast.) (I should probably take out the bit about being scaleable; until I solve my power problem, or until my current customers start jumping ship due to my stupid mistakes, I''m not scaling shit.) Climbing the google results ladder is not particularly difficult; the google algorythem is rather good- if you can get yourself linked from good sites, and if your page is not too cluttered, you rise to the top fairly quickly. I''ve put almost zero effort into SEO, aside from keeping my markup sparse and clean, and making my <H1> tags relivant to the subject matter at hand.> I agree and like I said, if your going to drive a car you should know > how to not get ripped off by a mechanic. Same goes with a hosting > provider .. but sadly its just not the case.I think this is more like "If you don''t want to learn how to drive, you should take a a taxi. If you can''t afford a taxi, take the train or the bus, or just walk." Basic UNIX is something that just about everyone could learn if they want to put in the effort. (Like driving, only a few will become experts, but most people can become adaquate.) Not knowing how to change the oil is fine, as long as you are willing to put in the effort and expence to find a compitent mechanic; but if you don''t know how to drive you are a danger to yourself and others. There are many service providers that create products specifically for the "I don''t want to be technical" market; most of them are cheaper than a VPS, as well. customers without technical interests ought to be pushed in the direction of those companies. _______________________________________________ Xen-users mailing list Xen-users@lists.xensource.com http://lists.xensource.com/xen-users
On Thu, 2006-11-02 at 11:44 -0800, Luke Crawford wrote:> On Fri, 3 Nov 2006, Tim Post wrote: > > > The fact remains that they are renting them because they are advertised > > as effortless and easy and the majority just doesn''t know any better. > > This is where they are getting "ripped off" - not in getting shorted on > resources.A million opinions could be interjected here. But the fact remains if you buy a VM and get tossed on a celeron 2.4 with one nic / bridge and 40 other high traffic sites, you aren''t getting what you pay for. Not saying you do that, but many do. Even for technically adept people, sometimes its hard to see what you''re actually getting.> I''m #12 for "xen hosting" right now... I''m fairly careful to go for the > more proficent customers. Getting people that are not unix people > results in headaches that are unprofitable for all involved: > > "hosting services for the technically adept. At ----, we don''t assume > you''re stupid." >I work for companies who have spent millions in market research (and marketing each year). I won''t name them, but I will say they are the top i-net interactive advertisers. I like your business model and I''m glad you found a niche. The real untapped market share is (broadly) non technical or Non Linux inclined.> VPS providers are simply not equiped to > serve non-technical customers. (I soppose you could do it if you had, > say, a 20:1 customer:SysAdmin ratio, but that would get expensive fast.) >I oversee a staff of approximately 50 here in Manila. "Managed Services" is a popular program / package, especially as a value add to VPS servers. Competent admins cost about $8 an hour here.. its very cost effective for companies with enough capital to launch "top heavy" to do it.> (I should probably take out the bit about being scaleable; until I solve > my power problem, or until my current customers start jumping ship due to > my stupid mistakes, I''m not scaling shit.) >I don''t think anyone is going to notice. If you just answer tickets timely and be nice to people you''ll keep your clients. I''m seeing some real horror stories. Sounds like you treat people like customers, not consumers .. you''ll continue to do well :)> Climbing the google results ladder is not particularly difficult; the > google algorythem is rather good- if you can get yourself linked from good > sites, and if your page is not too cluttered, you rise to the top fairly > quickly. I''ve put almost zero effort into SEO, aside from keeping my > markup sparse and clean, and making my <H1> tags relivant to the subject > matter at hand.Yep. But that''s another topic for another list.> > > I agree and like I said, if your going to drive a car you should know > > how to not get ripped off by a mechanic. Same goes with a hosting > > provider .. but sadly its just not the case. > > I think this is more like "If you don''t want to learn how to drive, you > should take a a taxi. If you can''t afford a taxi, take the train or the > bus, or just walk." Basic UNIX is something that just about > everyone could learn if they want to put in the effort. (Like driving, > only a few will become experts, but most people can become adaquate.) >The point I''m making is people are programmed to see a pretty website as a source of authority and believe what they read. You aren''t going to be able to change that. If xyz company with lots of fake testimonials says "You don''t need any Linux knowledge" , 60% of the sites visitors will believe that, especially if the risk involved is only 15 - 20 bucks a month for a VPS. What was the last percentage count of people who actually fall for phishing scams? I don''t remember, but I remember it was alarmingly high.> Not knowing how to change the oil is fine, as long as you are willing to > put in the effort and expence to find a compitent mechanic; but if you > don''t know how to drive you are a danger to yourself and others.I think we''re taking the metaphor into a parallel dimension now.> > There are many service providers that create products specifically for > the "I don''t want to be technical" market; most of them are cheaper than a > VPS, as well. customers without technical interests ought to be pushed > in the direction of those companies. >You can lead a horse to water .. in the end its the prettiest site that converts, when dealing with one who doesn''t know any better. Interesting conversation and debate, but is in danger of being off topic for the list now :) Best, -Tim _______________________________________________ Xen-users mailing list Xen-users@lists.xensource.com http://lists.xensource.com/xen-users