Xen users - Sep 2006 - Proposal for a xen-users(/devel?) netiquette

Hi,
With an increasing amount of mails coming through this list, there''s
also an increasing amount of emails which not conform to netiquette as
it is known to long-time usenet and mailing list users
but obviously not to people new to mailing lists, free software and Linux.

These netiquette rules are very helpful to get mailing lists with a
lot of posts ordered, clean, and easy to read and understand, which in
turn makes responding and helping much easier.

Therefore, I propose getting some important rules together for posting
to this list, and publish them at some central point (e.g. at the
subscription page at xensource), so  new people can read it _before_
subscribing. (BTW, I am not sure if the subscription messages contain
such info already, but obviously not everybody reads them).

My proposals ( in no particular order), which should be discussed
before setting them up:

1) don''t add legal privacy disclaimers to your mails - they tend to
have more than 10 lines, and they aren''t useful at all to solve
technical problems with xen (and, by the way, also don''t help to keep
any business secret!)

2) Don''t start a new thread as response to an existing thread (say, by
clicking on reply in your mailer on an existing thread).

3) please specify, short but exactly, what you are trying to
accomplish. What you did to accomplish this, and what the symptoms of
your problems are.
If you searched documentation or list archives about your problem,
it''s sometimes good to say so, because people might tell you to read
the docs first.

4) before posting questions, read the xen manual, the README files,
the wiki, and the mailing list archives. Use google or your favorite
search engine. Only after finding no answer there, post to the list.

5) avoid cross-posting to multiple lists

6) don''t post your full logfiles without being asked to do so. You can
post the some lines of a logfile, if you think there''s an interesing
information for analyzing the problem (warnings/errors/uncommon
messages) - but no unfiltered full log/output

7)  Use an appropriate list - xen-users for question about usage of
stable versions, xen-devel for reporting and discussing problems with
unstable/testing versions.

8) don''t write test mails to the list! Not for yourself, and not as an
administrator to solve your user''s problems posting to the list.

9) don''t repost your questions unchanged. If nobody replies to your
request, but you are sure somebody must know a solution or at least
have a hint, it''s very likely that nobody understands your problem.
Try to describe it better.

10) unsubscribing from the list is NOT done by mailing to the list''s
address. remember that if you want to get off the list. just use the
links at the end of the list mails...

further hints on the web:
http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html

What do you think?

Henning

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Henning Sprang wrote:
> Hi,
> With an increasing amount of mails coming through this list,
there''s
> also an increasing amount of emails which not conform to netiquette as
> it is known to long-time usenet and mailing list users
> but obviously not to people new to mailing lists, free software and Linux.
> 
> These netiquette rules are very helpful to get mailing lists with a
> lot of posts ordered, clean, and easy to read and understand, which in
> turn makes responding and helping much easier.
> 
> Therefore, I propose getting some important rules together for posting
> to this list, and publish them at some central point (e.g. at the
> subscription page at xensource), so  new people can read it _before_
> subscribing. (BTW, I am not sure if the subscription messages contain
> such info already, but obviously not everybody reads them).
> 
> My proposals ( in no particular order), which should be discussed
> before setting them up:
> 
> 1) don''t add legal privacy disclaimers to your mails - they tend
to
> have more than 10 lines, and they aren''t useful at all to solve
> technical problems with xen (and, by the way, also don''t help to
keep
> any business secret!)
> 
> 2) Don''t start a new thread as response to an existing thread
(say, by
> clicking on reply in your mailer on an existing thread).
> 
> 3) please specify, short but exactly, what you are trying to
> accomplish. What you did to accomplish this, and what the symptoms of
> your problems are.
> If you searched documentation or list archives about your problem,
> it''s sometimes good to say so, because people might tell you to
read
> the docs first.
> 
> 4) before posting questions, read the xen manual, the README files,
> the wiki, and the mailing list archives. Use google or your favorite
> search engine. Only after finding no answer there, post to the list.
> 
> 5) avoid cross-posting to multiple lists
> 
> 6) don''t post your full logfiles without being asked to do so. You
can
> post the some lines of a logfile, if you think there''s an
interesing
> information for analyzing the problem (warnings/errors/uncommon
> messages) - but no unfiltered full log/output
> 
> 7)  Use an appropriate list - xen-users for question about usage of
> stable versions, xen-devel for reporting and discussing problems with
> unstable/testing versions.
> 
> 8) don''t write test mails to the list! Not for yourself, and not
as an
> administrator to solve your user''s problems posting to the list.
> 
> 9) don''t repost your questions unchanged. If nobody replies to
your
> request, but you are sure somebody must know a solution or at least
> have a hint, it''s very likely that nobody understands your
problem.
> Try to describe it better.
> 
> 10) unsubscribing from the list is NOT done by mailing to the
list''s
> address. remember that if you want to get off the list. just use the
> links at the end of the list mails...
> 
11) no html mail. please post in text/plain only.
> further hints on the web:
> http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
> http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html
> 
> What do you think?
Works for me :m)
> 
> Henning
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Xen-users mailing list
> Xen-users@lists.xensource.com
> http://lists.xensource.com/xen-users
> 
> 

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Mike Wright wrote:
> Henning Sprang wrote:
>> What do you think?
> 
> Works for me :m)
No full quotes, please!

cu cp

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"Henning Sprang" <henning_sprang@gmx.de> wrote on 09/19/2006
01:21:19 PM:
> 1) don''t add legal privacy disclaimers to your mails - they tend
to
> have more than 10 lines, and they aren''t useful at all to solve
> technical problems with xen (and, by the way, also don''t help to
keep
> any business secret!)
Most people don''t add these directly.  They are added by the
organization''s
mailing software.  Users don''t have a way to turn them off.  I
don''t like
them either, but they will not go away easily.  I doubt any user wants to
tangle with the organization''s IT shop, email policies, and lawyers to
have
them removed. :(

My suggested rule:
13) Be sure to copy the list when you reply so that everyone can see the
complete discussion of the issue.

Steve D.


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Hi,

 > Therefore, I propose getting some important rules together for posting
 > to this list, and publish them at some central point (e.g. at the
 > subscription page at xensource), so  new people can read it _before_
 > subscribing. (BTW, I am not sure if the subscription messages contain
 > such info already, but obviously not everybody reads them).

on top of putting it at the subscription page (which probably many people
won''t
read), I would automatically send them as a mail to the list every month or so,
as it is done in many newsgroups, as a gentle reminder of what is considered
appropriate behaviour (and as a reminder of how to write a decent question:
there are so many posts that you know from the very beginning that nobody is
going to be bothered to reply because they are so poorly written).

Cheers,
Angel de Vicente
-- 
----------------------------------
PostDoc Software Support
Instituto de Astrofisica de Canarias


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On 9/19/06, Angel de Vicente <angelv@iac.es>
wrote:
>
> on top of putting it at the subscription page (which probably many people
won''t
> read), I would automatically send them as a mail to the list every month or
so,
hmm, isn''t that sort of spam?
Then we are better off pointing people who obviously didn''t read it to
this instead of giving them no answer.

O.K., doing it automatically is less work, and eventually everybody
will have read it...
How about adding a link to the netiquette to the mail footer (it could
be the same page as the subscription page)

Henning

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Hi,

Henning Sprang writes:
 > hmm, isn''t that sort of spam?
 > Then we are better off pointing people who obviously didn''t read
it to
 > this instead of giving them no answer.
 > 
 > O.K., doing it automatically is less work, and eventually everybody
 > will have read it...
 > How about adding a link to the netiquette to the mail footer (it could
 > be the same page as the subscription page)

Yes, I guess a link is less intrusive and probably a better idea, assuming that
the text is written in positive. I mean, the text should make people want to
read it (in the line of "how to write a good post that will get you an
answer")
instead of putting them off (with something like "things you
shouldn''t do"). At
least I think I would be more likely to read the first than the second one :-)

Cheers,
Angel de Vicente
-- 
----------------------------------
http://www.iac.es/galeria/angelv/

PostDoc Software Support
Instituto de Astrofisica de Canarias


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Steve Dobbelstein wrote:
> My suggested rule:
> 13) Be sure to copy the list when you reply so that everyone can see the
> complete discussion of the issue.
What''s the guideline for cc''ing the person directly vs just
replying to
the list address?

I''m finding that I tend to be rather random about it.  If it''s
an older
post, I cc the original author''s e-mail address; but if it''s a
current
topic, I might only post directly to the list address.

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On 9/20/06, Thomas Harold <tgh@tgharold.com>
wrote:
> What''s the guideline for cc''ing the person directly vs
just replying to
> the list address?
I''d say, if the mailing list includes the original author in the
reply-to, it is allowed to always post the author, too. Be cause
otherwise, every body always had to edit the "to" field when replying.

If the mayority would say they are too annoyed by getting mails twice,
then we should solve that technically - the list manager should
configure the list software to only make the list address the reply-to
header. The solution should not be everybody manually rewriting the to
field when responding.

Henning

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At 2006-09-19 20:21 +0200, Henning Sprang wrote:
>1) don''t add legal privacy disclaimers to your mails - they tend to
>have more than 10 lines, and they aren''t useful at all to solve
>technical problems with xen (and, by the way, also don''t help to
keep
>any business secret!)
When sending email from company addresses, lots of people have no control 
over these. They are added by the company SMTP server.

Also you could consider whether you prefer top or bottom posting. This list 
seems happy with either. 


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On Wednesday 20 September 2006 10:04, Geoff Streeter
wrote:
> Also you could consider whether you prefer top or bottom posting. This list
> seems happy with either.
i think you are talking about top or bottom *quoting*.
in case, top quoting is bad.

first link (in english) searching "top quoting" with google:
http://www.icdevgroup.org/pipermail/interchange-users/2003-May/033074.html

bye
d.

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Probably not a bad idea. I don''t remember seeing any guidelines when I
signed up. 

Should probably add a "Yay" or "Nay" on advertising other
Xen groups
here as the junk article-wikis are beginning to pick up on Xen''s
popularity to push Google ads. Not an issue here, yet .. but I suspect
soon will be. 

And yes, those 2 page disclaimer signatures are rather annoying.

My 2 cents :)

-Tim

On Tue, 2006-09-19 at 20:21 +0200, Henning Sprang wrote:
> Hi,
> With an increasing amount of mails coming through this list,
there''s
> also an increasing amount of emails which not conform to netiquette as
> it is known to long-time usenet and mailing list users
> but obviously not to people new to mailing lists, free software and Linux.
> 
> These netiquette rules are very helpful to get mailing lists with a
> lot of posts ordered, clean, and easy to read and understand, which in
> turn makes responding and helping much easier.
> 
> Therefore, I propose getting some important rules together for posting
> to this list, and publish them at some central point (e.g. at the
> subscription page at xensource), so  new people can read it _before_
> subscribing. (BTW, I am not sure if the subscription messages contain
> such info already, but obviously not everybody reads them).
> 
> My proposals ( in no particular order), which should be discussed
> before setting them up:
> 
> 1) don''t add legal privacy disclaimers to your mails - they tend
to
> have more than 10 lines, and they aren''t useful at all to solve
> technical problems with xen (and, by the way, also don''t help to
keep
> any business secret!)
> 
> 2) Don''t start a new thread as response to an existing thread
(say, by
> clicking on reply in your mailer on an existing thread).
> 
> 3) please specify, short but exactly, what you are trying to
> accomplish. What you did to accomplish this, and what the symptoms of
> your problems are.
> If you searched documentation or list archives about your problem,
> it''s sometimes good to say so, because people might tell you to
read
> the docs first.
> 
> 4) before posting questions, read the xen manual, the README files,
> the wiki, and the mailing list archives. Use google or your favorite
> search engine. Only after finding no answer there, post to the list.
> 
> 5) avoid cross-posting to multiple lists
> 
> 6) don''t post your full logfiles without being asked to do so. You
can
> post the some lines of a logfile, if you think there''s an
interesing
> information for analyzing the problem (warnings/errors/uncommon
> messages) - but no unfiltered full log/output
> 
> 7)  Use an appropriate list - xen-users for question about usage of
> stable versions, xen-devel for reporting and discussing problems with
> unstable/testing versions.
> 
> 8) don''t write test mails to the list! Not for yourself, and not
as an
> administrator to solve your user''s problems posting to the list.
> 
> 9) don''t repost your questions unchanged. If nobody replies to
your
> request, but you are sure somebody must know a solution or at least
> have a hint, it''s very likely that nobody understands your
problem.
> Try to describe it better.
> 
> 10) unsubscribing from the list is NOT done by mailing to the
list''s
> address. remember that if you want to get off the list. just use the
> links at the end of the list mails...
> 
> further hints on the web:
> http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
> http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html
> 
> What do you think?
> 
> Henning
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Xen-users mailing list
> Xen-users@lists.xensource.com
> http://lists.xensource.com/xen-users
> 
> 

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On Tuesday 19 September 2006 20:21, Henning Sprang
wrote:
> Therefore, I propose getting some important rules together for posting
> to this list, and publish them at some central point (e.g. at the
> subscription page at xensource), so  new people can read it _before_
> subscribing.
i agree.

but, maybe, there must be a review of existant mailing lists.
i am one of "the bad guy", but tecnically speaking there is some
problem
on "givin'' help":
> 7)  Use an appropriate list - xen-users for question about usage of
> stable versions, xen-devel for reporting and discussing problems with
> unstable/testing versions.
let''s see thread "Ethernet MTU".

if you follow both users and devel ml you gain two different and both 
important point.

As long as developer only stay on devel, you will never "take the
point" of
why xen is having that behavior (3 interface limit, max mtu, and so on).
that is the point.
maybe a screening from users to devel is needed, perhaps made by some 
moderator...

imho, a moderated list (with more devels that read less mail) could be "the
solution"

my 2 cents

bye
d.

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I think all of us are happy to sort through either top or bottom
quoting, or full quotes provided there is something of interest in the
message to begin with. I don''t think we need to get *that* particular
as
many people just go with whatever their mail client does by default.

Many lists fall under criticism for being snobbish about rather mundane
things when in fact its only a few extra bytes in a message to scroll
past, and shouldn''t trigger any resentment in someone who is inclined
to
be helpful to begin with :)

-Tim

On Wed, 2006-09-20 at 10:17 +0200, Daniele Palumbo
wrote:
> On Wednesday 20 September 2006 10:04, Geoff Streeter wrote:
> > Also you could consider whether you prefer top or bottom posting. This
list
> > seems happy with either.
> 
> i think you are talking about top or bottom *quoting*.
> in case, top quoting is bad.
> 
> first link (in english) searching "top quoting" with google:
> http://www.icdevgroup.org/pipermail/interchange-users/2003-May/033074.html
> 
> bye
> d.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Xen-users mailing list
> Xen-users@lists.xensource.com
> http://lists.xensource.com/xen-users
> 
> 

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On Wednesday 20 September 2006 09:35, Tim Post wrote:
> I think all of us are happy to sort through either top or bottom
> quoting, or full quotes provided there is something of interest in the
> message to begin with. I don''t think we need to get *that*
particular as
> many people just go with whatever their mail client does by default.
So it''s time to change an email client ;)
> Many lists fall under criticism for being snobbish about rather mundane
> things when in fact its only a few extra bytes in a message to scroll
> past, and shouldn''t trigger any resentment in someone who is
inclined to
> be helpful to begin with :)
>
Top-posting is bad, and there is no doubt about it. Why? We, IT people rely on 
logic, we are also rather busy. There is no logic in top-posting, and let me 
show you small example:
A: Because it fscks up the flow of conversation!
Q: Why is top-posting so bad?
A: Top-posting!
Q: What''s the most annoying thing on email lists?

What you have to do, is to scroll down the conversation, and try to recover 
the flow (some people would post correctly while some not. Complete mess)

And after all, netiquette is de facto standard: 
http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc1855.html

Regards,
-- 
Tom Napierala
DB Alliance Limited
North Point House, New Mallow Road, Cork, Ireland
The National Software Centre, Mahon, Cork, Ireland


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On Tue, 2006-09-19 at 23:49 -0400, Thomas Harold wrote:
> Steve Dobbelstein wrote:
> > My suggested rule:
> > 13) Be sure to copy the list when you reply so that everyone can see
the
> > complete discussion of the issue.
> 
> What''s the guideline for cc''ing the person directly vs
just replying to
> the list address?
I think people have to be a little tolerant of mistakes here. On many
lists, "Reply" goes to the list. For this list, I find I have to
remember where to find the "Reply to List" option. Yeah, I could
substitute the list address, but that would screw up the archive
threading. So if I''m a little tired, I might accidentally send a reply
to the sender.

Thanks,
Mike


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On 20 Sep 2006, at 6:17 PM, Tom Z. Napierala wrote:
> On Wednesday 20 September 2006 09:35, Tim Post wrote:
>> I think all of us are happy to sort through either top or bottom
>> quoting, or full quotes provided there is something of interest in  
>> the
>> message to begin with. I don''t think we need to get *that*  
>> particular as
>> many people just go with whatever their mail client does by default.
>
> So it''s time to change an email client ;)
What a practical solution. It works the rest of the time but we  
should change to suit a mailing list. Yes, I''m sure mutt does things  
better (I''m not picking on you Tom by the way - you just happened to  
bring up something (in a smiling way) that irks me). We live in a  
time of varying email clients that take getting used to and we should  
try to smile and deal with situations as they present themselves,  
IMHO. I know Mail.app doesn''t wrap lines nicely for
example.
>
>> Many lists fall under criticism for being snobbish about rather  
>> mundane
>> things when in fact its only a few extra bytes in a message to scroll
>> past, and shouldn''t trigger any resentment in someone who is  
>> inclined to
>> be helpful to begin with :)
>>
>
> Top-posting is bad, and there is no doubt about it. Why? We, IT  
> people rely on
> logic, we are also rather busy. There is no logic in top-posting,  
> and let me
> show you small example:
> A: Because it fscks up the flow of conversation!
> Q: Why is top-posting so bad?
> A: Top-posting!
> Q: What''s the most annoying thing on email lists?
>
> What you have to do, is to scroll down the conversation, and try to  
> recover
> the flow (some people would post correctly while some not. Complete  
> mess)
After working in a call centre I''m used to flows of conversation from  
all angles so all I ask is that people follow the existing flow. So,  
if you are the first response then bottom post (as is logical)  
otherwise go with what''s already there.

James

P.S. As for humour on the list, can I call you a langer Tom?

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On Wednesday 20 September 2006 15:04, James Gallagher
wrote:
> P.S. As for humour on the list, can I call you a langer Tom?
Yeah, why not. After all I''m from Cork now ;)

-- 
Tom Napierala
DB Alliance Limited
North Point House, New Mallow Road, Cork, Ireland
The National Software Centre, Mahon, Cork, Ireland


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On Wednesday 20 September 2006 15:04, James Gallagher
wrote:
> P.S. As for humour on the list, can I call you a langer Tom?
Yeah, why not. After all I''m from Cork now ;)

-- 
Tom Napierala
DB Alliance Limited
North Point House, New Mallow Road, Cork, Ireland
The National Software Centre, Mahon, Cork, Ireland


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On 20 Sep 2006, at 10:37 PM, Tom Z. Napierala wrote:
> On Wednesday 20 September 2006 15:04, James Gallagher wrote:
>> P.S. As for humour on the list, can I call you a langer Tom?
>
> Yeah, why not. After all I''m from Cork now ;)
>
You''re indeed, boyo

J


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On 9/20/06, Geoff Streeter <geoff@dyalog.com>
wrote:
> At 2006-09-19 20:21 +0200, Henning Sprang wrote:
> >1) don''t add legal privacy disclaimers to your mails - they
tend to
> >have more than 10 lines, and they aren''t useful at all to
solve
> >technical problems with xen (and, by the way, also don''t help
to keep
> >any business secret!)
>
> When sending email from company addresses, lots of people have no control
> over these. They are added by the company SMTP server.
Yeah, but if we all just accept that some brainless legal-frighened
suits make us annoy each other with these useless disclaimers that is
no solution.

At least it shoule be stated that a list doesn''t want these
disclaimers, and everybody posting to the list should try to get rid
of them or be less loved than the others. Everybody can use any
freemailer - even their ads are not half as long as these disclaimers.
And if http should be blocked (unlikely that these people find the
mailing list), at least all these people should annoy their bosses to
stop with this. it is not only filling lists, but the whole net.

Henning

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On Wed, 2006-09-20 at 11:17 +0100, Tom Z. Napierala wrote:
> Top-posting is bad, and there is no doubt about it. Why? We, IT people rely
on
> logic, we are also rather busy. There is no logic in top-posting, and let
me
> show you small example:
> A: Because it fscks up the flow of conversation!
> Q: Why is top-posting so bad?
> A: Top-posting!
> Q: What''s the most annoying thing on email lists?
> 
I agree 100% .. and I think its proper to politely point it out to the
poster, along with (if possible) answers to their questions. I would
hate to see folks ''snubbed'' over something they
weren''t aware of.

Its only going to get worse as more and more people explore Xen with
less and less skill to muster into such endeavors. 

My question then is if guidelines are posted clearly, and someone has
obviously not read the guidelines or cares not to follow them .. should
their question just not be answered? Link to the guide page and request
they follow them and re-submit their question?

On the flip side, someone who was diligent and trying to help themselves
first and use the list as a last resort will be frustrated and in a big
hurry by the time they get to it.. so its only natural to assume a "yeah
yeah whatever" attitude on their part when they are presented with the
guidelines.

Everything seems to be pointing at a moderated list being the best idea
or it may quickly degrade into something very silly. :)

Best -
Tim



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On 9/20/06, Tom Z. Napierala <tom@dba.ie> wrote:
> [...]
> Top-posting is bad, and there is no doubt about it. Why? We, IT people rely
on
> logic, we are also rather busy. There is no logic in top-posting, and let
me
> show you small example:
> A: Because it fscks up the flow of conversation!
> Q: Why is top-posting so bad?
> A: Top-posting!
> Q: What''s the most annoying thing on email lists?
I already tended to let this rule out because there where some people
thinking it''s not necessary.

But this example is enough. Even worse - in this example you have only
single lines - in areal conversation, you have to go to the very
bottom of a mail, go up until the first mail starts, read until
bottom, got 2 mails up, read until the end of the second mail, and so
on, it''s really ugly, and it can be avoided if people at least get
pointed at it...

Henning

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On 9/21/06, Tim Post <tim.post@netkinetics.net>
wrote:
> [...]
> My question then is if guidelines are posted clearly, and someone has
> obviously not read the guidelines or cares not to follow them .. should
> their question just not be answered?
In general, ihnoring people is, yeah, ignorant :)
No, really, they should be, as part of the answer, be informed that
they should read the netiquette before further posting.
> On the flip side, someone who was diligent and trying to help themselves
> first and use the list as a last resort will be frustrated and in a big
> hurry by the time they get to it.. so its only natural to assume a
"yeah
> yeah whatever" attitude on their part when they are presented with the
> guidelines.
Someone being caught deliberately ignoring the guidelines after
multiple hints to them should be ignored after a while. But I hope
this will not be necessary.

I don''t think the idea making the list fully moderated, (in my
understanding meaning only reviewed posts come through), is a good
idea in general. Unmoderated Mailing lists work fine all over the
world, so there''s no reason the xen-users list should fail.
It''s also not already very bad, but I wanted to make it a bit nicer,
and mainly help people doing better postings, because some do bad
postings because they don''t know better.

Henning

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On 9/20/06, Daniele Palumbo <daniele@retaggio.net>
wrote:
> On Tuesday 19 September 2006 20:21, Henning Sprang wrote:
> > Therefore, I propose getting some important rules together for posting
> > to this list, and publish them at some central point (e.g. at the
> > subscription page at xensource), so  new people can read it _before_
> > subscribing.
>
> i agree.
>
> but, maybe, there must be a review of existant mailing lists.
> i am one of "the bad guy", but tecnically speaking there is some
problem
> on "givin'' help":
>
> > 7)  Use an appropriate list - xen-users for question about usage of
> > stable versions, xen-devel for reporting and discussing problems with
> > unstable/testing versions.
>
> let''s see thread "Ethernet MTU".
>
> if you follow both users and devel ml you gain two different and both
> important point.
This is not about/against crossposting. It''s more about general
thougtfulness when choosing a list to post to. In some cases it can be
useful to ask on both lists.

But I am not sure if your example is good, because I don''t see who
replied from the users list, and who replied from the devel list in
this thread. At the first glancem this question seems to be clearly
devel, because it''s exactly about future xen development.
That''s not a
user question, only and mainly developers can say something about
that.

I just see sometimes people posting bugreports and troubles with
testing/unstable to the users list, and think that the developers need
to know that, not the users in the first place. In the end, users
using the devel version should read the devel lists, also :)

Still, I can live with it if more people think this rule should not be set up.

Henning

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> Subject: Re: [Xen-users] Proposal for a xen-users(/devel?) netiquette
> 
> On 9/20/06, Geoff Streeter <geoff@dyalog.com> wrote:
> > At 2006-09-19 20:21 +0200, Henning Sprang wrote:
> > >1) don''t add legal privacy disclaimers to your mails -
they tend to
> > >have more than 10 lines, and they aren''t useful at all to
solve
> > >technical problems with xen (and, by the way, also don''t 
> help to keep
> > >any business secret!)
> >
> > When sending email from company addresses, lots of people 
> have no control
> > over these. They are added by the company SMTP server.
> 
> Yeah, but if we all just accept that some brainless legal-frighened
> suits make us annoy each other with these useless disclaimers that is
> no solution.
> 
> At least it shoule be stated that a list doesn''t want these
> disclaimers, and everybody posting to the list should try to get rid
> of them or be less loved than the others. Everybody can use any
> freemailer - even their ads are not half as long as these disclaimers.
> And if http should be blocked (unlikely that these people find the
> mailing list), at least all these people should annoy their bosses to
> stop with this. it is not only filling lists, but the whole net.
AMD doesn''t have these disclaimers, but they also don''t allow
"freemailers". The previous company I worked for, which I
won''t name,
but it''s part of a fairly large and well-known Singaporean company had
both the "no freemailers" and "Legal disclaimer" on their
mailserver.
Nothing I could do about it. If I try to go to GMAIL or Yahoo-mail,
I''ll
get blocked by the proxy-server - even smaller, less known freemailers
are blocked. It''s company policy, and there''s NOTHING I can do
to change
that [aside from only mailing when I''m at home...]

If you work for a LARGE corporation, you often have much less freedom
than those who work for small companies, since the organisation that
looks after the computer equipment will have more power to just overrule
anyone that has "objections" to the current system, unless you can get
some BIG BOSS to agree with you [which you can when it''s got to do with
direct business, but if I were to go to an AMD VP and say "The Xen
user''s mailing list is requiring that I use a free-mailer to mail to
the
list, because AMD''s policy doesn''t match the mailing
list", I''m pretty
sure I know what the answer would be... [Not that I need to use a
freemailer, as I don''t think anyone has any great problem with my
mail-format or any disclaimer/footers supplied by my mailer.]

[I personally completely agree that these disclaimers are completely and
utterly useless, and I''m glad that AMD doesn''t supply them!]

--
Mats
> 
> Henning
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Xen-users mailing list
> Xen-users@lists.xensource.com
> http://lists.xensource.com/xen-users
> 
> 
> 


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On Thursday 21 September 2006 11:58, Henning Sprang
wrote:
> > on "givin'' help":
> > > 7)  Use an appropriate list - xen-users for question about usage
of
> > > stable versions, xen-devel for reporting and discussing problems
with
> > > unstable/testing versions.
> This is not about/against crossposting. It''s more about general
> thougtfulness when choosing a list to post to. In some cases it can be
> useful to ask on both lists.
imho, if you post on users you have a problem.
if you have a problem, it can be an "hard" limit by xen code.
if so, only devel can understand it.

(and i AM against cross posting :)
> But I am not sure if your example is good, because I don''t see who
> replied from the users list, and who replied from the devel list in
> this thread.
just intresting answers:
http://lists.xensource.com/archives/html/xen-users/2006-08/msg00492.html
http://lists.xensource.com/archives/html/xen-devel/2006-08/msg00944.html
http://lists.xensource.com/archives/html/xen-devel/2006-09/msg00454.html
> At the first glancem this question seems to be clearly 
> devel, because it''s exactly about future xen development.
That''s not a
> user question, only and mainly developers can say something about
> that.
as you can see, it''s not properly a testing/unstable question, cause it
is
already solved.
but, not for stable.
and, last post is a patch. that is for users (use it) and devel (if written 
wrong, or if they want to do it better, or ...)
> I just see sometimes people posting bugreports and troubles with
> testing/unstable to the users list, and think that the developers need
> to know that, not the users in the first place. In the end, users
> using the devel version should read the devel lists, also :)
you are right. and for mtu question i should open a bug in bugzilla.
but in first mail you can read:
--
Therefore, I propose getting some important rules together for posting
to this list, and publish them at some central point (e.g. at the
subscription page at xensource), so  new people can read it _before_
subscribing. (BTW, I am not sure if the subscription messages contain
such info already, but obviously not everybody reads them).
--

that is enough for me.
i hope this netiquette will be accepted asap.

bye
d.

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On Thu, 2006-09-21 at 11:48 +0200, Henning Sprang wrote:
> 
> I don''t think the idea making the list fully moderated, (in my
> understanding meaning only reviewed posts come through), is a good
> idea in general. Unmoderated Mailing lists work fine all over the
> world, so there''s no reason the xen-users list should fail.
> It''s also not already very bad, but I wanted to make it a bit
nicer,
> and mainly help people doing better postings, because some do bad
> postings because they don''t know better.
> 
> Henning
> 
I agree that a ''fully moderated'' list isn''t the best
idea. Just looking
at the number of posts that have come across the last 2 months its
obvious the lists are getting really busy, and only going to get
busier. 

I would think that a few should be the ones to point out the rules and
let them handle moderation when its needed, instead of a poster
receiving a bunch of "RTFR" (R being rules) replies from many. These
get
archived in Google quickly as this list is aggregated by a few dozen
list archive sites. 

As you pointed out, there is netiquette to follow when pointing out
netiquette.

I''ve been a faithful subscriber and participant in a great many lists
that started off to be a wonderful resource and just degraded into a
such a fido-net-ish mess of ego and regulations that the list itself
ceased to be of any use. 

So given that its highly impractical to make the list fully moderated ..
some ''hall monitors'' (perhaps) would probably be prudent.
I''m not by any
means volunteering, only suggesting the idea. :)

Best -
Tim


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On 9/19/06, Henning Sprang <henning_sprang@gmx.de>
wrote:
> Hi,
> With an increasing amount of mails coming through this list,
there''s
> also an increasing amount of emails which not conform to netiquette as
> it is known to long-time usenet and mailing list users
> but obviously not to people new to mailing lists, free software and Linux.
I finally set up the netiquette in the qiki and wrote them together,
incorporating the discussion we had:

http://wiki.xensource.com/xenwiki/XenUsersNetiquette

I''ll contact the xensource people (in case noone of them is readin
this already) to ask if they can add these rules to the official list
subscription page.

Henning

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(took a while, but here my reply)

On 9/22/06, Tim Post <tim.post@netkinetics.net>
wrote:
>  [...]
> I agree that a ''fully moderated'' list isn''t the
best idea. Just looking
> at the number of posts that have come across the last 2 months its
> obvious the lists are getting really busy, and only going to get
> busier.
Right, hopefully more and more people are using Xen - which
automatically leads to more questions :)
> I would think that a few should be the ones to point out the rules and
> let them handle moderation when its needed, instead of a poster
> receiving a bunch of "RTFR" (R being rules) replies from many.
> These get  archived in Google quickly as this list is aggregated by a few
dozen
> list archive sites.
You mean when people post these/too many RTFR mails publicly? One
thing, if said in public, it will not be said too often because the
others see that a person has already been told to read and follow
netiquette. So their will be no masses in the archives.
> As you pointed out, there is netiquette to follow when pointing out
> netiquette.
Did I say that? I didn''t mean it. Rules for pointing out the
netiquette to others would be:

* only point out netiquette errors in private mail to people - you
want to help them get better, not deface them

If we make the netiquette well visible, I think it''s O.K. when someone
too lazy to read them gets multiple hints to go bacj and read
netiquette before further posting. But mostly these people will be
just ignored, I think it''s unlikely they become flooded.

* only point them about about breaking rules which are contained in
our discussed and agreed upon set of netiquette rules. If you think
these aren''t enough, as if it''s o.k. to add a rule there.
> I''ve been a faithful subscriber and participant in a great many
lists
> that started off to be a wonderful resource and just degraded into a
> such a fido-net-ish mess of ego and regulations that the list itself
> ceased to be of any use.
Let me understand you: you mean too many rules  break the list, or too
many "wrong" posts?
I think, it''s both. Therefore I wanted to discuss the rules, and than
establish a set that is agreed on. Nobody should just set up their own
rules now, because we have a discussed set of rules.
> So given that its highly impractical to make the list fully moderated ..
> some ''hall monitors'' (perhaps) would probably be prudent.
I''m not by any
> means volunteering, only suggesting the idea. :)
Neither do I. But I could bear it anymore. So now I trust in the
people reading the netiquette before they post, nobody will deface
people in public, and everything becomes nice :)

Henning

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At 2006-09-26 13:46 +0200, Henning Sprang wrote:
>On 9/19/06, Henning Sprang <henning_sprang@gmx.de> wrote:
>>Hi,
>>With an increasing amount of mails coming through this list,
there''s
>>also an increasing amount of emails which not conform to netiquette as
>>it is known to long-time usenet and mailing list users
>>but obviously not to people new to mailing lists, free software and
Linux.
>
>I finally set up the netiquette in the qiki and wrote them together,
>incorporating the discussion we had:
>
>http://wiki.xensource.com/xenwiki/XenUsersNetiquette
>
>I''ll contact the xensource people (in case noone of them is readin
>this already) to ask if they can add these rules to the official list
>subscription page.
>
>Henning
>
>_______________________________________________
>Xen-users mailing list
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>http://lists.xensource.com/xen-users
Editorial:

Missing blank line between points 1. and 2.
Last line of point 6. "you" instead of "your".

Content:

Point 9. needs expanding from the point of view of an email client user. 
"Thread" is not an email client concept (or at least not in either of
my
clients, eudora and kmail).
For responding to lists I normally hit "reply to all" which is what is
encouraged on the "wine users" list. Is this right or wrong for this
list?

Geoff Streeter 


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On Tuesday 26 September 2006 12:46, Henning Sprang
wrote:
> I finally set up the netiquette in the qiki and wrote them together,
> incorporating the discussion we had:
Great job
> http://wiki.xensource.com/xenwiki/XenUsersNetiquette
My notes:
Re.4.
I suggest adding something like: "You can always upload your log to public 
webserver and paste an URL."

Re.8 
We can provide the names of some of free email services. Gmail is nice, and it 
doesn''t even add advertising to the emails.

That''s really all (although I don''t agree with pointing out
errors in private.
Not really sure what''s worse: being publicly instructed or flooded with
reprimands ;)

Regards,
-- 
Tom Napierala
DB Alliance Limited
North Point House, New Mallow Road, Cork, Ireland
The National Software Centre, Mahon, Cork, Ireland

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On 9/26/06, Geoff Streeter <geoff@dyalog.com>
wrote:
> Missing blank line between points 1. and 2.
> Last line of point 6. "you" instead of "your".
O.k., changed.
> Point 9. needs expanding from the point of view of an email client user.
> "Thread" is not an email client concept (or at least not in
either of my
> clients, eudora and kmail).
I am pretty sure they know this concept, and even the feature to sort
by thread. But I can''t explain how you find these functions in the
programs.

So, I really didn''t think threads are a new concept for anybody, but I
added some explanation now. Does that explain it better?
> For responding to lists I normally hit "reply to all" which is
what is
> encouraged on the "wine users" list. Is this right or wrong for
this list?
It''s not about responding, it''s about posting new questions.
Please,
let me know if it is now clear from the changed text.

Henning

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On 9/26/06, Tom Z. Napierala <tom@dba.ie> wrote:
> [...]
> I suggest adding something like: "You can always upload your log to
public
> webserver and paste an URL."
Added that hint and a link to pastebin. Smaller things should be kept
on the list because pastebin will be emtied after a while.
>
> Re.8
> We can provide the names of some of free email services. Gmail is nice, and
it
> doesn''t even add advertising to the emails.
I''d not go so far to make advertising...
> That''s really all (although I don''t agree with pointing
out errors in private.
> Not really sure what''s worse: being publicly instructed or flooded
with
> reprimands ;)
I think most people will just ignore wrong postings. And if you didn''t
read the netiquette for lazyness, getting 50 Mails to remember you
will help even more reading and following it the next time :

Henning

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At 2006-09-26 18:46 +0200, Henning Sprang wrote:
>On 9/26/06, Geoff Streeter <geoff@dyalog.com> wrote:
>>Missing blank line between points 1. and 2.
>>Last line of point 6. "you" instead of "your".
>
>O.k., changed.
>
>>Point 9. needs expanding from the point of view of an email client user.
>>"Thread" is not an email client concept (or at least not in
either of my
>>clients, eudora and kmail).
>
>I am pretty sure they know this concept, and even the feature to sort
>by thread. But I can''t explain how you find these functions in the
>programs.
>
>So, I really didn''t think threads are a new concept for anybody,
but I
>added some explanation now. Does that explain it better?
>
>>For responding to lists I normally hit "reply to all" which is
what is
>>encouraged on the "wine users" list. Is this right or wrong
for this list?
>
>It''s not about responding, it''s about posting new
questions. Please,
>let me know if it is now clear from the changed text.
>
>Henning
Better. Editorial: Spacing around left paren is inconsistent. "anew"
should
ba "a new".

Geoff 


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