Xen devel - Feb 2005 - xen, OpenMosix + pretty gui = virtual iron killer

Hi,

  I was at Linux World today and stopped by the Virtual Iron booth.  Could this
be a copy of xen technology?   Virtual Iron appears to be a combination of xen
and open mosix technology.  Has anyone tried running xen on an Open Mosix
cluster?  With the new Infiniband hardware out I bet we could build an effecient
cluster.  I can test with low end hardware for now, I don''t have the
$$$ to buy
two dell poweredge 6600 series servers and some Infiniband equipment.  But I can
build a 2 node AMD cluster with a gigibit interconnect for test.  


  I kind of confronted the sales engineer at LinuxWorld and asked, "hey
does
this products'' roots from Xen and OpenMosix?" The attendant got
pretty angry and
said "If Xen used Open Mosix to come up with a competing soultion they
would
sue!"  What a jerk! This  company has no clue what open source is about!
I say, as a community, lets do it!  If we can get true virtualization on the
hardware so we can be OS agnostic that would be even better.





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*chuckle* this is what I''ve been looking into for over a year now. If
they try to patent it, I''d think it''ll fail the
"non-obvious"
clause. ;-P

For being founded in March 2003 it seems a rather rapid development to
have been completely proprietary. I''d LOVE to find out if they are
leaching off of OpenMOSIX+XEN in some way.

I did notice that they joined OSDL
http://lxer.com/module/newswire/view/31320/ as a part of the Data Center
Linux working group.

Maybe they patented the idea of xen+mosix. who knows. anyone?

Brian Wolfe
TerraBox.com Inc.

On Thu, 2005-02-17 at 01:05 +0000, Jerry Normandin
wrote:
> Hi,
> 
>   I was at Linux World today and stopped by the Virtual Iron booth.  Could
this
> be a copy of xen technology?   Virtual Iron appears to be a combination of
xen
> and open mosix technology.  Has anyone tried running xen on an Open Mosix
> cluster?  With the new Infiniband hardware out I bet we could build an
effecient
> cluster.  I can test with low end hardware for now, I don''t have
the $$$ to buy
> two dell poweredge 6600 series servers and some Infiniband equipment.  But
I can
> build a 2 node AMD cluster with a gigibit interconnect for test.  
> 
> 
>   I kind of confronted the sales engineer at LinuxWorld and asked,
"hey does
> this products'' roots from Xen and OpenMosix?" The attendant
got pretty angry and
> said "If Xen used Open Mosix to come up with a competing soultion they
would
> sue!"  What a jerk! This  company has no clue what open source is
about!
> I say, as a community, lets do it!  If we can get true virtualization on
the
> hardware so we can be OS agnostic that would be even better.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> Xen-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xen-devel


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openMosix and Xen have obviously been around before they even formed as 
a company (which doesn''t exclude they acquired prior intellectual 
property). On the other hand, you can get a patent on pretty much 
anything today, provided you carefully reword things.

The market is much better at sorting out why it should pay for 
something that it can get for free somewhere else.

"Fate, it seems, is not without a sense of irony" (Morpheus in The 
Matrix)


Moshe


On Feb 17, 2005, at 2:13 AM, Brian Wolfe wrote:
> *chuckle* this is what I''ve been looking into for over a year now.
If
> they try to patent it, I''d think it''ll fail the
"non-obvious"
> clause. ;-P
>
> For being founded in March 2003 it seems a rather rapid development to
> have been completely proprietary. I''d LOVE to find out if they are
> leaching off of OpenMOSIX+XEN in some way.
>
> I did notice that they joined OSDL
> http://lxer.com/module/newswire/view/31320/ as a part of the Data 
> Center
> Linux working group.
>
> Maybe they patented the idea of xen+mosix. who knows. anyone?
>
> Brian Wolfe
> TerraBox.com Inc.
>
> On Thu, 2005-02-17 at 01:05 +0000, Jerry Normandin wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>>   I was at Linux World today and stopped by the Virtual Iron booth.  
>> Could this
>> be a copy of xen technology?   Virtual Iron appears to be a 
>> combination of xen
>> and open mosix technology.  Has anyone tried running xen on an Open 
>> Mosix
>> cluster?  With the new Infiniband hardware out I bet we could build 
>> an effecient
>> cluster.  I can test with low end hardware for now, I don''t
have the
>> $$$ to buy
>> two dell poweredge 6600 series servers and some Infiniband equipment. 
>>  But I can
>> build a 2 node AMD cluster with a gigibit interconnect for test.
>>
>>
>>   I kind of confronted the sales engineer at LinuxWorld and asked, 
>> "hey does
>> this products'' roots from Xen and OpenMosix?" The
attendant got
>> pretty angry and
>> said "If Xen used Open Mosix to come up with a competing soultion 
>> they would
>> sue!"  What a jerk! This  company has no clue what open source is 
>> about!
>> I say, as a community, lets do it!  If we can get true virtualization 
>> on the
>> hardware so we can be OS agnostic that would be even better.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -------------------------------------------------------
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>> users.
>> Discover which products truly live up to the hype. Start reading now.
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>> _______________________________________________
>> Xen-devel mailing list
>> Xen-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xen-devel
>
>
>
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I searched around a bit on the web, but couldn''t find anything about 
their GUI.  Anyone have any pointers to info on it?

Jerry Normandin wrote:
>Hi,
>
>  I was at Linux World today and stopped by the Virtual Iron booth.  Could
this
>be a copy of xen technology?   Virtual Iron appears to be a combination of
xen
>and open mosix technology.  Has anyone tried running xen on an Open Mosix
>cluster?  With the new Infiniband hardware out I bet we could build an
effecient
>cluster.  I can test with low end hardware for now, I don''t have
the $$$ to buy
>two dell poweredge 6600 series servers and some Infiniband equipment.  But I
can
>build a 2 node AMD cluster with a gigibit interconnect for test.  
>
>
>  I kind of confronted the sales engineer at LinuxWorld and asked, "hey
does
>this products'' roots from Xen and OpenMosix?" The attendant
got pretty angry and
>said "If Xen used Open Mosix to come up with a competing soultion they
would
>sue!"  What a jerk! This  company has no clue what open source is
about!
>I say, as a community, lets do it!  If we can get true virtualization on the
>hardware so we can be OS agnostic that would be even better.
>
>
>
>
>
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>SF email is sponsored by - The IT Product Guide
>Read honest & candid reviews on hundreds of IT Products from real users.
>Discover which products truly live up to the hype. Start reading now.
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>_______________________________________________
>Xen-devel mailing list
>Xen-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
>https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xen-devel
>
>
>
>  
>

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Your right Denis.  I checked thier website.  It''s not a mozilla
friendly
website either, you can''t get
to all the links.  I believe we all can do a better job on the interface.
>From what I saw at Linux world the interface is broseer driven.  I was
trying to get a chance to get to an xterm window so I can do ldd on the
libraries and binaries but I didn''t get a chance. they were too busy
with
the demo.  From what I saw it looked an aweful lot like Xen running on top
of Open Mosix with 
a gui to glue it all together.   


This motivated me enough to try to scrap some equipment together and put
together a two node
Open Mosix Cluster and load Xen up. Possibly start testing.  I don''t
have
enough $$$ right now
to get some Infiniband hardware, but I can complete some testing with the
hardware I have.

  



Denis Bohm <denis@fireflydesign.com> said:
> I searched around a bit on the web, but couldn''t find anything
about
> their GUI.  Anyone have any pointers to info on it?
> 
> Jerry Normandin wrote:
> 
>>Hi,
>>
>>  I was at Linux World today and stopped by the Virtual Iron booth. 
Could this
>>be a copy of xen technology?   Virtual Iron appears to be a combination
of xen
>>and open mosix technology.  Has anyone tried running xen on an Open
Mosix
>>cluster?  With the new Infiniband hardware out I bet we could build an
effecient
>>cluster.  I can test with low end hardware for now, I don''t
have the $$$ to buy
>>two dell poweredge 6600 series servers and some Infiniband equipment. 
But I can
>>build a 2 node AMD cluster with a gigibit interconnect for test.  
>>
>>
>>  I kind of confronted the sales engineer at LinuxWorld and asked,
"hey does
>>this products'' roots from Xen and OpenMosix?" The
attendant got pretty angry and
>>said "If Xen used Open Mosix to come up with a competing soultion
they would
>>sue!"  What a jerk! This  company has no clue what open source is
about!
>>I say, as a community, lets do it!  If we can get true virtualization on
the
>>hardware so we can be OS agnostic that would be even better.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>-------------------------------------------------------
>>SF email is sponsored by - The IT Product Guide
>>Read honest & candid reviews on hundreds of IT Products from real
users.
>>Discover which products truly live up to the hype. Start reading now.
>>http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=6595&alloc_id=14396&op=click
>>_______________________________________________
>>Xen-devel mailing list
>>Xen-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
>>https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xen-devel
>>
>>
>>
>>  
>>
> 
> 
> -- 
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.8 - Release Date: 2/14/2005
> 
> 
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Jerry Normandin <jerryn <at> nfnnet.org>
writes:
> 
>....
>
Jerry, just saw your post.  I''ve also talked to their sales engineers
at
LinuxWorld and from what they''ve told me their product is not based on 
Xen, OpenMosix, OpenSSI or even Linux.  They''ve claimed that it is all 
based on home brewed technologies.  







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Jerry Normandin <jerryn <at> nfnnet.org>
writes:
> > 
> 
Jerry, I just started using Xen.  I also saw these guys at LinuxWorld and talked
to their sales guys and they claimed that the software is all home brewed and
is not based on Xen, OpenMosix, OpenSSI or even Linux.  Howerver, it is a cool
idea to mix Xen with OpenMosix, would love to hear more as you continue with
this effort.

David



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The impression I got from a couple of questions to the speaker was that 
they supported DSM in the hypervisor, and that the Linux was not terribly 
aware.  OpenMosix + Xen could do much better I think.  Interesting 
synchronization questions to be worked out though. 
           -- Orran
> Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 11:04:35 -0000
> To: "Denis Bohm" <denis@fireflydesign.com>,
>    "Jerry Normandin" <jerryn@nfnnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [Xen-devel] xen, OpenMosix + pretty gui = virtual iron 
killer
> From: "Jerry Normandin" <jerryn@nfnnet.org>
> Cc: <xen-devel@lists.sourceforge.net>
> 
> Your right Denis.  I checked thier website.  It''s not a mozilla
friendly
> website either, you can''t get
> to all the links.  I believe we all can do a better job on the 
interface. 
> From what I saw at Linux world the interface is broseer driven.  I was
> trying to get a chance to get to an xterm window so I can do ldd on the
> libraries and binaries but I didn''t get a chance. they were too
busy
with
> the demo.  From what I saw it looked an aweful lot like Xen running on 
top
> of Open Mosix with 
> a gui to glue it all together. 
> 
> 
> This motivated me enough to try to scrap some equipment together and put
> together a two node
> Open Mosix Cluster and load Xen up. Possibly start testing.  I
don''t
have
> enough $$$ right now
> to get some Infiniband hardware, but I can complete some testing with 
the
> hardware I have.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Denis Bohm <denis@fireflydesign.com> said:
> 
> > I searched around a bit on the web, but couldn''t find
anything about
> > their GUI.  Anyone have any pointers to info on it?
> > 
> > Jerry Normandin wrote:
> > 
> >>Hi,
> >>
> >>  I was at Linux World today and stopped by the Virtual Iron 
> booth.  Could this
> >>be a copy of xen technology?   Virtual Iron appears to be a 
> combination of xen
> >>and open mosix technology.  Has anyone tried running xen on an Open
Mosix
> >>cluster?  With the new Infiniband hardware out I bet we could 
> build an effecient 
> >>cluster.  I can test with low end hardware for now, I
don''t have
> the $$$ to buy
> >>two dell poweredge 6600 series servers and some Infiniband 
> equipment.  But I can
> >>build a 2 node AMD cluster with a gigibit interconnect for test. 
> >>
> >>
> >>  I kind of confronted the sales engineer at LinuxWorld and
asked,"hey
does
> >>this products'' roots from Xen and OpenMosix?" The
attendant got
> pretty angry and
> >>said "If Xen used Open Mosix to come up with a competing
soultion they
would
> >>sue!"  What a jerk! This  company has no clue what open source
is
about!
> >>I say, as a community, lets do it!  If we can get true
virtualization
on the
> >>hardware so we can be OS agnostic that would be even better.

Orran Y Krieger <okrieg <at> us.ibm.com>
writes:
> 
> 
> The impression I got from a couple of questions to
> the speaker was that they supported DSM in the hypervisor, and that the
> Linux was not terribly aware.  OpenMosix + Xen could do much better
> I think.  Interesting synchronization questions to be worked out though.
>            -- Orran> Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 11:04:35 -0000
> > To: "Denis Bohm" <denis <at> fireflydesign.com>,
> >    "Jerry Normandin" <jerryn <at> nfnnet.org>
> > Subject: Re: [Xen-devel] xen, OpenMosix + pretty gui = virtual iron
> killer
My understanding was that they completly virtualize the underlying hardware to
construct a large virtual SMP without any mods to the Linux kernel, very 
different than what Xen does with its paravirtualization approach.  I wonder 
how they solved false sharing problems in the kernel. 

David




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My guess is they didn''t solve false sharing problems at all, and on top
of that the true sharing issues will always stay there.

Especially the slab allocator of Linux is bound to create lots of false 
and true sharing.

Moshe


On Feb 21, 2005, at 7:43 PM, David Rottenburg wrote:
>
> Orran Y Krieger <okrieg <at> us.ibm.com> writes:
>>
>>
>> The impression I got from a couple of questions to
>> the speaker was that they supported DSM in the hypervisor, and that 
>> the
>> Linux was not terribly aware.  OpenMosix + Xen could do much better
>> I think.  Interesting synchronization questions to be worked out 
>> though.
>>            -- Orran> Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 11:04:35 -0000
>>> To: "Denis Bohm" <denis <at>
fireflydesign.com>,
>>>    "Jerry Normandin" <jerryn <at> nfnnet.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [Xen-devel] xen, OpenMosix + pretty gui = virtual iron
>> killer
>
> My understanding was that they completly virtualize the underlying 
> hardware to
> construct a large virtual SMP without any mods to the Linux kernel, 
> very
> different than what Xen does with its paravirtualization approach.  I 
> wonder
> how they solved false sharing problems in the kernel.
>
> David
>
>
>
>
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>


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